URGENT: Gaza is burning. The MSM is not just missing the story, it’s a propaganda arm of Israel as it prepared a genocide. I break stories that Israel doesn’t want anyone to know, including its own citizens.
Through all this, Tikun Olam is live-blogging the war. I bring you the latest media coverage from Israel and Palestine. You will be better informed here than almost anywhere else on the internet. Please donate now.
Al Ahli hospital in northern Gaza was wracked by a massive explosion last week, which killed over 500 refugees sheltering there from Israel’s massive bombardment. They were part of the 1.1-million Palestinians Israel threatened with attack if they not abandon their homes and property.
Israel almost immediately blamed Islamic Jihad, claiming a misfired rocket crashed into the hospital. Palestinians, on the other hand, blamed Israel for the attack. I wrote a blog post that attempted to thread the needle between the two accounts, reporting the evidence for each claim. Though I would normally disbelieve any such Israeli claim based on its miserable track record in such circumstances; on the other hand, both Pres. Joe Biden and an Israeli security source supported Israeli claims. At that point, I thought the claim was confirmed and IJ was the likely the culprit.
Preliminary analysis by FA, @alhaq_org & @earshot_ngo into the #AlAhli hospital blast in Gaza casts significant doubt on IOF claims that the source of the deadly explosion was a Palestinian-fired rocket travelling west to east. pic.twitter.com/PtYtP9l81j
— Forensic Architecture (@ForensicArchi) October 20, 2023
Until today. Forensic Architecture (FA), the foremost global NGO documenting war crimes, released a damning report (tweet above) based on audio analysis, satellite photographs of the blast site, eyewitness accounts, and eyewitness photos of the scene of the explosion. It found the Israeli account riddled with spurious claims and unreliable evidence.
FA examined two of the main Israeli claims: first, that the trajectory of the munition that struck the hospital went from an IJ position toward toward the hospital, indicating it came from inside Gaza, rather than without. FA found in fact, that the actual trajectory, based on examination of the impact crater and other factors, pointed to a southerly trajectory (see above graphic), meaning that the munition was fired from Israeli territory toward the hospital.
On the morning of October 18th, Israel Defence Forces released this video https://t.co/0edVN249Nr. https://t.co/8gAKfOuJj7 performed an audio analysis and found that this recording was manipulated and cannot be used as a credible source of evidence. 1/4
— earshot.ngo (@earshot_ngo) October 20, 2023
Second, Israel released what it claimed was an audio communication (above tweet) between two Hamas operatives, purportedly discussing the incident and confirming that it was a Palestinian rocket. In other words, Israel was off the hook and could pin the blame on the other side. But FA and its audio expert at earshot.ngo found that the call consisted of two separate conversations which were spliced together using an audio editor. In other words, the IDF manufactured evidence to absolve itself of blame.
Finally, there is the question of which munition was used to cause this tragedy. Some have speculated on a JDAM or SPIKE missile, but FA’s examination determined it was much more likely that it was an artillery shell. Which begs the question: why would an army lob an artillery shell into a heavily populated area? Clearly, it hardly cared where it landed. It if did, it would not have chosen artillery to do so.
UPDATE: New York Times published an investigation of key video footage shot by Al Jazeera, which both the IDF and US intelligence say shows a Palestinian rocket exploding in air and falling down toward the hospital. The Times investigator found:
Multiple synchronized videos show a projectile, previously identified by Israeli officials as a Palestinian rocket, launching from Israel and detonating near the Israel-Gaza border.
In other words, the rocket shown in the video was not Palestinian. Rather, it was likely an Iron Dome projectile fired from Israel which fell two miles from the hospital and likely didn’t even fall inside Gaza. The Times story makes clear that its findings do not determine responsibility for the tragic incident. But they discredit a key piece of evidence used to buttress IDF claims.
I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again: you can believe nothing the IDF ever tells you on any matter. But especially on ones in which its made a terrible error and seeks desperately to avoid blame. I knew that when I wrote my original post, but thought there was reasonable circumstantial evidence, independent of the IDF. But I was wrong. This is just another war crime. One in a very long line of them.
The IDF’s concocted story is also part and parcel of a clever propaganda strategy. When you’ve committed a massacre or other equally egregious crime, you concoct a cover story, any story. You layer it with claims and produce a piece or two of purported evidence to bolster the claim. Then you send army spokesliars out to the world to spread the lie. Before you know it your version is echoed in the White House and global media. The world fixes blame. And that’s that.
The same happened in the murder of Shireen Abu Akleh. Though she was killed by an IDF sniper, the army threw as many theories out there, so as to entirely confuse all but the most dedicated analyst. But three separate painstaking media reconstructions of events confirmed Israel was responsible. There still has not been any independent investigation, though Biden and Blinken promised one at the time. No one has been held accountable. Which is how Israel literally gets away with murder.
By the time Forensic Architecture completes its investigation, the world has moved on to another outrage in Gaza, Ukraine or somewhere else in the world. The new investigation is reported in a few places. A few articles in a few publications. But the world had made up its mind. It takes too much effort for the average person to decide they must revisit the story, review the evidence again, and perhaps change their mind. So Israel wins. War crimes win.
Yesterday, Israel bombed another critical Gaza institution sheltering refugees from Israeli mayhem. St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church, the third oldest in the world, dating from 432CE, took a direct hit from an Israeli missile. It killed 18 people taking shelter there. One of the Church buildings was destroyed. The Church itself suffered extensive damage.
How many times do I have to say this: GENOCIDE. When you destroy the hospitals, churches, mosques, schools, universities, power and water plants, when you starve and kill on a massive scale, that is genocide. When, dear God, will the world do something to stop it? CEASEFIRE NOW!
Biden’s doomed Israel-Palestine policy
Pres. Joe Biden has made himself and the US a laughingstock by claiming that he persuaded Israel to permit humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. He did no such thing. No sooner did Secretary Blinken make this claim than a top aide and Netanyahu confidant added conditions making the offer meaningless: the aid would only enter if Hamas freed all the hostages. It would be as if one gunman said to another, I’ll give your wounded comrade a drink of water if you lay down your gun.
Biden added that in a “blunt” negotiation he persuaded Egyptian leader al-Sisi to permit 20 trucks to enter via the Rafah crossing. There are 300 tons of supplies waiting in hundreds of trucks at that crossing. All being held up because Israel refuses to give Egypt the green light to open the gates. To this “achievement” the president had the temerity to boast: “I got it done.”
Half the time I feel like he’s a robot propped up by his aides kneeling behind him. Wind him up and he’ll say what they program him to say. This will only get worse as he ages. And he’s not aging well. Who can blame a man of 80 years trying to run a (fading) global superpower? But why does he have to do it for another four years?? How will he respond the next time Israel slaughters Palestinians? Even worse than this time.
In his speech to the nation he argued that we must give tens of billions in aid to Israel and Ukraine. Below are a few excerpts:
You know, the assault on Israel echoes nearly 20 months of war, tragedy and brutality inflicted on the people of Ukraine…
No, it doesn’t. Hamas launched an attack on southern Israel that lasted for five days. Russia invaded Ukraine twice and conquered and occupied a huge swath of its sovereign territory in 2014. In 2022, it invaded again and took more land.
Biden added that he told Netanyahu that he expects Israel to obey the laws of war:
President Netanyahu and I discussed again, yesterday, the critical need for Israel to operate by the laws of war. That means protecting civilians in combat as best as they can.
What laws of war? As far as Israel is concerned there are none. As for “civilians,” there are no Palestinian civilians as far as Israel is concerned. They are all terrorists. It makes no such distinction. How dare Biden say such things when he knows they are lies. For Biden, his statement constituted a wink and a nod to a protocol the US itself rejects. US forces have routinely violated the laws of war and never been held to account. Why should Israel be any different?
Hamas and Putin represent different threats, but they share this in common. They both want to completely annihilate a neighboring democracy — completely annihilate it. Hamas’ stated purpose for existing is the destruction of the state of Israel and the murder of Jewish people.
No again. Leaving aside the false claim that Israel is a democracy…Hamas does not want to annihilate Israel. It wants recognition of Palestinian national rights. It wants a single democratic state for Jews and Palestinians. That is not “annihilation.” Nor was its attack on Israel intended to destroy Israel. It was a limited operation whose intent was to dramatize the ongoing genocide perpetrated by Israel on Palestinians.
Hamas seeks a one-state solution–one adopted by both Palestinians, academics, human rights activists, and a growing number of Israelis and Diaspora Jews. Hamas has never stated it seeks the “murder of the Jewish people.” That is a bald-faced lie and it’s inexcusable that he and his speechwriters included such a outrageous claim. It will only exacerbate hatred of all Palestinians and Arabs, leading to physical assaults, desecrated mosques,and even murder.
Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people.
Actually, it does. Hamas has existed since 1987. It has weathered huge upheavals, coups, assassinations, invasions. Through it all it has maintained a disciplined political and military strategy. It combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamist theology. Whatever one may think of Hamas, this is a combination no one can destroy. Even if Israel did destroy it (which it will not and cannot do), the ideas it represents will continue to resonate among Palestinians.
Where does a US president get off telling the world who represents Palestinians? Didn’t we try to do just that in Iraq? Weren’t we going to deliver democracy after we toppled Saddam Hussein? That went well, didn’t it?
The security package I’m sending to Congress and asking Congress to do is an unprecedented commitment to Israel’s security that will sharpen Israel’s qualitative military edge, which we’ve committed to: the qualitative military edge. We’re going make sure Iron Dome continues to guard the skies over Israel. We’re going to make sure other hostile actors in the region know that Israel’s stronger than ever and prevent this conflict from spreading.
He’s allocating billions in military aid to Israel, a country with the 10th largest military in the world-with nuclear weapons, ICBMs, F-35s, and much more. Why does it need a single penny more in military aid?
As for whether military aid “prevents conflicts from spreading,” that’s a specious proposition. The more weapons you have the more likely you’ll use them. His argument suggest that the more weapons you more likely you’ll enjoy peace. The more weapons bristle in the Israeli arsenal, the less like Hezbollah, Iran and the Palestinians will attack it. Israel’s enemies will attack it as long as Israel continues to commit genocide and refuse a political compromise. Biden’s claim is bankrupt and patently false.
Thx for this extra mile Richard … well done. My first interpretation of the messaging early hours had convinced me it was the IDF. The statements by Biden and Sunak were hollow and confirmed my assumption. Intelligence agencies US-UK-Mossad years of lying liars. The war narrative is losing ground due to inhumane acts of IL and supporters.
“What laws of war? As far as Israel is concerned there are none.”
Same for the United States, specifically after 9/11 and dozens of extrajudicial assassinations across the globe. And worse … as unipolar military power, Biden and Blinken refuse to compromise, negotiate with declared “enemies’ or states of the fluid “axis of evil”. Diplomacy only takes place with nations of the Western alliance on trade and NATO aggression. Biden failed the JCPOA Geneva talks via a mediator. The US shunned its responsibility at the most recent UNSC vote … humanitarian aid to Gaza … 12 members gave their support, UK and Russia abstained and a single NO vote from Greenfield-Blinken-Biden kept aid for Gaza out.
In her press briefing, Mrs. Thomas-Greenfield nearly used quotes from Israeli MK Meirav Ben-Ari.
Firstly, Richard, you claimed I said that a Hamas anti-tank missile hit the refugee caravan. I never said that.
I said that the ‘munitions expert’ didn’t consider whether an anti-tank missile might have caused the damage.
Now, I understand how an impact crater might help tell the trajectory of a projectile, but what I don’t understand is how FA can determine from a crater impact, the trajectory of an ERRANT rocket, which by its nature is not following its planned trajectory, or falling straight down without tumbling, or descending with limited propulsion from its malfunctioning motor. Maybe the errant rocket impacted in a manner that suggests a southern launch, when in fact, the launch may have come from nearby in Gaza.
BTW, didn’t your ‘source’ say that Israel wasn’t responsible for the bomb that fell in the hospital’s parking lot? Who should we believe? Your source or FA?
Why is Richard making his claim based on FA’s ‘preliminary report’, which report hasn’t yet addressed the video evidence of the purported PIJ rocket salvo and the immediate explosion on the ground at the hospital.
@ Minute: An errant rocket can have an erratic trajectory. But what it cannot do is overfly the hospital then turn around and strike it from the north. That can only happen from a location north of the hospital. That excludes an IJ rocket. Not to mention that it has compared the impact crater of a rocket and an artillery round. They would make a different impact because they are different munitions of different sizes and different explosive impacts.
As for my source. I’ve found from experience that in addition to the quality of the information offered, you have to consider the interests of the source in conveying the information. In this, either my source was given information possibly from another security source which he trusted & conveyed to me. Or he was instructed to tell me a story he knew to be false. Or he on his own decided to tell me the IDF version. At any rate, I now believe he was wrong.
FA has video of the explosion at the hospital and has reviewed it and included it in its considerations. I’m sure it has reviewed all available evidence, including that of the IDF. A good analyst does that and then makes a determination.
Unfortunately Forensic Architecture isn’t considered an impartial source, even if they are 100% right. I never understood why they can’t resist calling the IDF the IOF, knowing it would be used against them when it comes to things like this.
@ Kyle:
Israeli Occupation Forces is a correct name for the army of occupation. I don’t care whether they call it ‘swiss cheese on rye.’ The proof is in the content, which is correct 100% of the time. Accuracy and truth are the most important criteria. Everything else is noise, as is your comment.
A strong comment Richard. And I agree with a lot on the basics. But I would like more info about this assessment that the hospital attack was Israel’s doing. That conclusion here runs away with a lot else about the situation that follows when the dam breaks yet again. Does it matter who is responsible particularly or more generally for this attack? Opinions are hardening about this ( errant or on purpose?) .
I would like to know where Hamas says that it does not want the total destruction of Israel. I do know people who point to Hamas as pure evil point to the H Charter/s. This charter Hamas waves off. but does not change. I do know that what I have heard on British media( BBC) from a Hamas leader in Lebanon (/) has been more reasonable as to the why of this attack on October 7th. Given that and what I know about the conditions and the recent moves to the hard right in Israel, with re softened Arab countries and the US, seemingly with little for the Palestinians, it seems that this was the time for the Palestinian “issue” to call attention to itself. Who but Hamas can or will?
But you cannot in this period of terrorization speak with calm. or reason
From the get-go my gut has been blaming Netanyahu for years of “evil” leadership that instigated, that has been self-serving, fomenting hate, dividing the people, anti any peace negotiation. He negotiated his relationship with the US brazenly dividing us or taking advantage of our internal divisions and with lies .
He ultimately wants all the land from the Jordan to the sea, albeit if need be via gradual inhumane actions and a lot of death if need be caring not a whit about international law, for a forever the occupation/apartheid/subjugation. He seems to rationalize the price Israelis have to pay including for the various deastating “operations” ( 4-5?).
Israelis have become more and more okay with this, living with this situation’s “status quo”. Only when the Israeli Supreme Court was threatened were people out in the streets.
But if you give reasons for this carnage started by Hamas you get jumped on for justifying it,. You can’t be explaining it as in “what did you expect… to go on like this?”
At this point, and maybe it can only be said is few places, Hamas has reawakened the world. Was it moral? Was it even wise, It was simply horrific and it terrorized the living. Look at the price Hamas must have known this would cost and that Palestinians would pay even moreso in addition to the relative to previous price Israel has had to pay. This was the price awaken to shake up. What the result will be remains to be seen. Opportunities are there now, more than before.
I have to say I agree about Biden, alas. What is the choice at this point other than to say” alas”.
He appears to have been firm with Israel but not firm enough. I strongly object to our further war materiale, even defensive, support of Israel, billions, without strong conditions, if there are any at all. And not at the price of helping Ukraine.
The incongruity of the reasons for helping both Israel and Ukraine is not lost on many, not here,
Thank you.
sorry for my typos. I was referring to the several “operations” in Gaza where the death tolls for Palestinians were overwhelming, the destruction overwhelming… not to forget what has increased daily in the W.Bank
Israel didn’t blame IJ “almost immediately”. It took over two hours with many videos floating around. And Israel did take responsibility to the bombing in the church compound which didn’t cause much (if any) damage to the church.
https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/
What about this:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3
The jury is still out at the very least. The headline here, Richard, is too much.
Explained by Richard …
fA seems an outlier. Other assessments are also credible. Jury still out. Bias is hard to discern.. Do some want to blame Israel or IJ?
Western Media is Manufacturing Consent for Israel to do what it wants in Gaza.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent
Searching “Forensic Architecture” using various search engines, we see that the Mainstream Media is suppressing the latest information that disputes Israel’s version of the al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion.
https://twitter.com/ForensicArchi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_media
We don’t see CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, or any other major network reporting this.
Only more obscure news organizations like Al Jazeera, and a few others like the Palestinian Chronicle are reporting it.
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/who-bombed-al-ahli-baptist-hospital-three-top-investigations-offer-an-answer/
This is how the West controls the narrative to justify their bad behavior to the rest of the world.
@Steve Benassi: MSM has about a 3 day attention span–and that’s only if it’s a major catastrophe. If it’s just a garden variety tragedy, the attention span is 1 day. So by the time FA’s rpt came out it was beyond the MSM time frame. THey had no use for a rpt coming that long after the event. Which is why Israel gets in their immediately with lies and kicking up dust. To confuse people.
Richard, I disagree, the MSM is intentionally ommiting evidence that goes against their pro-Israel narrative, and are Manufacturing Consent for Israel to do what it wants with impunity.
Four of the “Big Five” MSM Conglomerates are run by Jews, and the Fifth is run by Rupert Murdoch.
See …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_media#The_“Big_five”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_L._Roberts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Iger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Zaslav
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shari_Redstone
Jews have a near monopoly on the MSM.
Is it racist for me to point this out? I don’t think so.
The MSM is intentionally omitting evidence that goes against their pro-Israel narrative, and are Manufacturing Consent for Israel to do what it wants with impunity.
Four of the “Big Five” MSM Conglomerates are run by Jews, Brian Roberts, Bob Iger, David Zaslav, Shari Redstone, and the Fifth is run by Rupert Murdoch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_media#The_“Big_five”
NYT is dismissing evidence that goes against the MSM pro-Israel narrative because they are “often critical of Israeli policies”.
“Forensic Architecture, a London-based visual investigation group, disputed the Israeli account, saying that the munition had been fired from the direction of Israel. Al Jazeera, a Qatari news channel, concluded that a Palestinian rocket had been intercepted by an Israeli air defense missile. Both are often critical of Israeli policies.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hospital-evidence.html
Ilhan Omar was right when she said “Israel has hypnotized the world, with the help of the BIG FIVE MSM Conglomerates which are run by Four Jews and ONE Rupert Murdoch.
“Who controls the past controls the future” — George Orwell. 1984
We have biases and opinions. I do. I am very critical of Israel especially now.
The Palestine Chronicle report is a good example of bias on the other side of reporting. There are”experts” on either side. Do we check further or just believe? The counter evidence being recycled on that side mirrors the evidence in the Western media. Minds are being made up so the truth, if we have or will have anything definitive that can be believed by everyone ( hopeless), does not matter at all.
In some cases which seem pivotal as this is, it would be good to know more conclusively, based on evidence that is universally credible. This we do not have yet. FA admits it’s leaning and that what it has posted is not conclusive but preliminary. The others that the AP mentions do as well.
There is the question of the IDF ‘s credibility especially here. So automatically there is suspicion. Maybe the US has lost credibility as well. But that does not mean that everything that is said especially citing those who offer seemingly credible scientific preliminary conclusions is not credible and does not have weight, is not to be considered.
Bottom line for me is that I highly doubt that either side deliberately targets hospitals though both sides in this ferocious war don’t seem to be careful or care, rationalizing instead. Opinions have hardened enough, unfortunately, as to whose to blame for this one and it’s folded into the blaming.
https://twitter.com/ForensicArchi/status/1715422520839442727
There is ultimate blame, for sure.
Hamas in this well planned surprise huge attack, horrific, must have known that in addition to the terror, they were going to get Israel’s 10 fold response back to themselves and moreso onto Gazans and Gaza. it is being said, rightfully, that this was a trap for Israel. And they are falling into it. But to destroy Israel, they were willing to destroy themselves and the Gazans people, draw Israel to a point that in this phase 2 where Israel retaliates, lacking restraint, kills it’s own again in the process and Israel loses much of the world’s sympathy. As well, geopolitical plans come to a halt. A very high price all around. This hospital rocket attack drew the media magnets.
Gazans are paying for this. It’s a wake-up for Israelis who are and will be feeling this as well. I doubt this situation will be put back together again as it was.
The only positive development in all of this barbaric, genocidal horror is that the ground invasion into Gaza hasn’t happened yet. Whether it’s because of the massive protests around the world, the renewed voices of solidarity in the Middle East or the fears of a regional war spiraling out of control, the tide against Netanyahu and his government has shifted against him in a sudden and dramatic fashion; inconceivable to even myself. It has gotten so bad for the Israeli government that more than 50% of Americans oppose arming Israel in its proposed war in Gaza. The pressure should continue. It might save the Palestinian people and humanity.
“One of the rockets appears to veer from the others, away from the distant lights of Israel and back toward a darkened Gaza City, where electricity has largely been cut. The camera follows the light from the rocket’s tail as it arches in the sky upwards and toward the left. Suddenly, the rocket seems to fragment, and a piece appears to break off and fall. Another fragment shoots sharply up and to the right, blazing before it explodes in a fireworks-like flash, leaving a brief trail of sparks.
A small explosion is then seen on the ground in the distance, followed two seconds later by a much larger blast closer to the camera. The corner of the scroll at the bottom of the live broadcast reads 6:59 p.m. Gaza time.”
—Associated Press
Multiple videos, taken from different angles that FA has not yet addressed.
Maybe it’s time to move on.
@ Yellow: You need to use a link to the AP stor and acknowledge the source. Don’t just quote from it.
AP has not addressed FA’s rpt and FA hasn’t addressed AP’s rpt. There is evidence in the FA rpt which AP doesn’t address either. So as far as I’m concerned there are 2 dueling accts. AP’s is by no means definitive as far as I’m concerned.
Potter had provided the AP link from which I lifted the quote, which report I strongly recommend your readers examine for its thorough and reasoned conclusions.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3
I searched the FA website for any updates, but I could not find any.
I’m confused by the FA (enhanced) graphic of the crater impact. It looks to me like the projectile came from the SW and debris blew back in that direction.
It would have been great if FA had provided other pics of impact craters for comparison.
@ Yellow: You might want to look at the NY Times investigation unit’s finding discrediting the main video evidence US intelligence and IDF used to assign blame to IJ.
Wikipedia is good. I think they have it covered, both sides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion
Scroll down to Analysis, Open Source Analysts
Usually in voice calls the two sides of the conversation are transmitted separetly, so probably they had to be merged to have them both heard. That can explain the fact the audio conversation between the Hammas activists consisted of two audio channels combined together, and doesn’t nesseccerily mean it was fabricated.
@ Communications: Pardon me, but a professional audio expert with far more experience than you dealing with forensic analysis of such recordings made this call about the authenticity of the evidence. Not to mention that the FA rpt notes that the 2 conversations were manipulated and spliced together using an audio editing program. Bogus through and through. But nice try.
You may post a new comment in a new thread if you choose. But only one comment per thread. That was yours for this one.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
You are probably smarter than CNN…
“CNN has reviewed dozens of videos posted on social media, aired on live broadcasts and filmed by a freelance journalist working for CNN in Gaza, as well as satellite imagery, to piece together what happened in as much detail as possible.
Without the ability to access the site and gather evidence from the ground, no conclusion can be definitive. But CNN’s analysis suggests that a rocket launched from within Gaza broke up midair, and that the blast at the hospital was the result of part of the rocket landing at the hospital complex.”
@Ezer: I don’t necessarily think any particular media outlet is “smart” unless their reporting is accurate. In this case, Forensic Architecture and BBC Channel 4 both suggested Israel was the culprit while the AP and CNN said Islamic Jihad was the culprit. Unlike you, I’m keeping an open mind at this point. You neglected to point out (of course you did) that the NY Times investigation unit examined a key piece of video evidence both US intelligence and the IDF used to support their claim it was an IJ rocket. As Times investigation team has discredited this video evidence. It has NOT made a determination of who is responsible. But discrediting this evidence weakens Israel’s case against IJ.
Evidence … in AP reported video of the strike I do hear a missile whizzing by … some seem to hear the whizzing sound of falling debris? Really!
[blockquote]Hamas does not want to annihilate Israel. It wants recognition of Palestinian national rights. It wants a single democratic state for Jews and Palestinians. That is not “annihilation.” Nor was its attack on Israel intended to destroy Israel. It was a limited operation whose intent was to dramatize the ongoing genocide perpetrated by Israel on Palestinians.[/blockquote]
Hamas clearly wants to annihilate Israel
Hamas Covenant – Article 7:
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews (quoted from al-Bukhari)
Hamas Covenant – Article 15:
In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised
Hamas Covenant – Article 28:
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people
Hamas Covenant – Article 32:
Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews
(https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
And yes, they’ve “updated” their Charter in 2017 to improve their image and sound less anti-semitic.
Democracy?
Actions speak louder than words, so while some of their leaders claim to want a democracy, they haven’t held elections in Gaza since 2006.
Taking it a step further – there aren’t so many Arab countries known for being democracies…
As for a single Muslim state with Jews – please see my first point.
Genocide
As you’re familiar with the legal definition of genocide, you would know that intent is a core aspect of it – the intent to destroy.
While one can argue about Israel’s intentions, the numbers don’t lie.
From a population of ~340,000 people living in Gaza in the 70’s, to over 2 million people now. Life expectancy has also increased from ~55 years to ~74 years.
More people, longer lives. That’s the opposite result of a genocide.
[blockquote]Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people.
Actually, it does. Hamas has existed since 1987. It has weathered huge upheavals, coups, assassinations, invasions. Through it all it has maintained a disciplined political and military strategy. It combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamist theology. Whatever one may think of Hamas, this is a combination no one can destroy. Even if Israel did destroy it (which it will not and cannot do), the ideas it represents will continue to resonate among Palestinians.[/blockquote]
The point he was trying to make is that Palestinians will not act like Hamas does. Had they held elections, we may have gotten a better understanding as to who they represent and who they don’t. Let’s also not forget the PA that represents Palestinians in the West Bank.
[blockquote]As for whether military aid “prevents conflicts from spreading,” that’s a specious proposition. The more weapons you have the more likely you’ll use them. His argument suggest that the more weapons you more likely you’ll enjoy peace. The more weapons bristle in the Israeli arsenal, the less like Hezbollah, Iran and the Palestinians will attack it. Israel’s enemies will attack it as long as Israel continues to commit genocide and refuse a political compromise. Biden’s claim is bankrupt and patently false.[/blockquote]
You claimed that Hamas seeks a one-state solution, so what compromise are you referring to?
Military aid ensures Israel can face additional conflicts, which will consequently lead to the prevention of such events. It’s a logical proposition which holds true in this region.
Once Palestinians have been allowed to have a country of their own, to have a crack at it, with borders free from incursion and blockade by Israel it will be a very different story. Outlook on a decent future should prevail over harming Israel. They would not be under occupation. They would and have a land that is theirs to build upon for the future. THEY will have to deal with Hamas and IJ and other groups. They can be good neighbors instead. Hamas would have to change. They have shown they have this capacity at times. In 2008 before the Olmert Abbas peace talks collapsed, when there was so much hope, they were very close, down to numbers. Olmert then disappears into his legal problems for I forget what, Sharon comes in and makes another but insulting offer to the Palestinians take it or leave it.. Sharon then has an epiphany, becomes more positive, but is not well. Netanyahu is elected and trashes the whole peace process. Heavy propaganda begins about Palestinians (Abbas) rejecting “a most generous offer”. This is repeated today. That was, by the way, the same moment when Hamas said it was ready to abide by whatever peace agreement Palestinians agreed to.
Richard or anyone can correct me. But from that moment on it seemed more and more that Israel wanted to annihilate “the two state solution”, which it has. As well Israel has made life miserable for the Palestinians. Their increasing resistance, terrorism.
What about ONE state with equality for all. NO walls, NO apartheid system. Everyone lives together? What about that? No way Israel says. Keeping the “status quo” ( which is not) is the goal.
Military aid, our military aid, ensures that this ongoing cycle is repeated. This brings more resistance using terrorism, offers more misery for Palestinians. Now the point has been made by Hamas that it can cause increasing misery for Israelis. More Hamas will grow as the situation continues and they will be bolstered by reactions to the massive numbers of dead and international condemnation of Israel for it’s disproportional response. I would not be surprised if Hezbollah comes into this now from the north.
I don’t want us, the US, to aid that anymore. Israel has failed to make a safe and secure state for Jews and seems inclined to keep digging that hole. The US should wise up and make any aid conditional, even defensive aid at this late date. Again our unconditional aid to Israel hurts Israel. I have deep roots and much family in Israel, been there recently, been disgusted by the separation wall, the increased hate, the “vibes”, and the pretense of normality, with troops and police all around at the ready.
I don’t think an outlook of a decent future will prevail over harming Israel.
This hatred has existed before 1948 (e.g. 1929 riots or 1936), and escalated in 1947 – when a two-state solution was declared.
There was (or is) an idea of establishing a Palestinian state in the Sinai peninsula, including territory exchange between Israel and Egypt. The PA has rejected it.
The reason it did, is because they’re after a specific territory – and it’s not within the borders of 1967, but rather “from the river to the sea”.
That leads me to the “ONE state with equality for all”.
As a country that was founded as the home for the Jewish people (a people, not necessarily a religion), what do you think would happen when Jews are outnumbered?
I can’t think of any liberal Arab country. I can’t think of any (real) Arab democracy.
As Richard said – Israel cannot eliminate the idea of Hamas – and we’ve all seen their most brutal acts 2.5 weeks ago against civilians, some of which work for peace organizations. It’s also part of their education system – children are taught to hate Israel. One can only imagine what will happen if we all live together.
Now, I could be wrong with my estimation, but I wouldn’t want to give it a try and then be right.
Your first sentence says it all for you and many others which is why we are here. It will get worse. It won’t get better. Palestinians, I doubt are going to give up their need to “breathe free”.. nor would I, and I dare say nor would you. No question agreeing to a Palestinian state, if that is possible anymore, is a gamble. But It’s a good gamble. Because MOST people want to have normal life, prosperous life, and a future for their children. Are Palestinians some sort of different form of humanity?
Go back to the Olmert Abbas talks of 2008 to see what they accepted, how far they came. Even Hamas has defacto accepted Israel. If only Israelis opposed to any peace at all ( they are the ones that want river to the sea- a projection) would stop pointing at Palestinians for being the ones who don’t want it. The anti-peace folks use whatever excuse they can grab, they are champs at that.. True Palestinians want their part of Jerusalem, their holy sight/s. Jerusalem should be an international territory or share amongst the religions. But Israel will not allow that. They will of course point to the past. The failure of peace is a lot about not letting go of the past, the worst of it to bolster their righteousness.
Tell me too that Israeli children are not taught to hate Palestinians. I know they are… and some Jewish children here too are so taught…I know so personally.
When Richard said we cannot eliminate the idea of Hamas, I took it to mean Israel cannot eliminate resistance, terrrorism. I can’t believe that Hamas believes it can destroy Israel. That is absurd. Hamas wants it’s power and Israel has been giving Hamas its power. Only Israel can destroy itself.
So you say you may be wrong… but you would rather this what we have now? We have an Israel now that is divided, insecure and unstable, not a refuge; an Israel that cries for sympathy and prayers and money.
@Benjamin: This is your second comment in this thread. I told you earlier you are entitled to a single comment in any thread. You’re ignored me. To ensure you follow this rule, I’ve moderated you. If you do post a comment I will publish it. But I will not publish more. And you will be under increased scrutiny due to what you’ve done here
You forget it was Zionist colonial settlers who came and displaced Palestinian fedayeen peasant farmers. It was the Zionists who incited such resentment and hostility on the part of Palestinians. It did not arise ex nihilo.
That is not an “idea.” I would not grace such a crackpot stupid concept with such a term. I’ve heard no one but a chief rabbi come up with that winner.
You’re confused. First, you don’t know what the PA thinks, so don’t speak for them or tell us the reason they did something or anything. Second, the PA in fact does not believe in the “river to the sea.” You’re confusing Hamas (and many Diaspora and Israeli Jews who believe in a single democratic state) with the PA, which for over 30 years has supported a 2 state solution–the opposite of “from the river…etc. Either you’re ignorant or you’re arguing in bad faith, or both.
The territory of Israel includes another people for whom it is their homeland. One homeland cannot and must not erase the other. If there was a single democratic state for all its citizens, the sky would not fall. Israeli Jews would not be thrown into concentration camps and driven into the sea (and other such shibboleths). In fact, there would be a political process in which there would be Jewish and Palestinian parties of various ideological stripes. There would be elections and coalitions would be formed. Just like a normal democracy. I know that hurts your feelings, but that’s what a real demcoracy is. What you want is a theocratic Judeo-supremacist state.
It is racist to make such generalizations about an entire people. There are Arab and Muslims countries which are democracies. Not that this matters. Israel claims it is a democracy. Look what it has wrought? Bloodshed, hatred, genocide.
Further, determining how one state solution would work based on far flung Arab nations has nothing to do with Israeli Palestinians. All Arabs are not alike. That may come as a shock to you. But it’s true.
I will not permit you to peddle such lies. And if you want to raise this hasbara talking point I can point to textbooks and multiple videos of Israeli children learning not only to hate “Arabs” but to kill them. Two can play at this game. And trust me, you won’t win.
This is the only thing you have ever written in all your comments here, and you didn’t even mean to: the operative phrase is “we all live together.” You will all live together. And just as scores of countries have engaged in brutal warfare for decades at a time, but now live next to each other in peace, so Israel could. Except for its tendency toward fascism, Judeo-supremacy and terrorism, which prevents the only real solution possible.
And this is the 2nd accurate statement you’ve made in your sojourn here: you are wrong.
@ Benjamin: IF you ever publish another long comment like this I will delete it. Keep comments short and succinct. I ask that of every commenter, not just you. BUt you really went overboard and I do NOT appreicate it.
It is a tired hackneyed propaganda plot to raise the 1988 Hamas charter. As I know you know, Hamas wrote a more recent document which supercedes the Charter. You of course didn’t quote from it because it didn’t offer you any ammunition to attack Hamas. The Charter didn’t even have any authority when it existed, let alone after its been thrown in the proverbial trash. So don’t ever raise this claim again here.
Wrong. Hamas is eager for elections because it would win them. The sole reason there have not been elections is because Abbas and Fatah know they would take a drubbing and they would lose their gravy train grift.
Your numbers actually do lie. Genocide as a phenomenon has virtually nothing to do with demography or statistics you raise. It has to do with policy, ideology and the practical ways in which they are implemented. Victims of genocide reproduce so their numbers naturally increase. Israeli genocide has nothing to do with population. It also has nothing to do with life expectancy. Israel is not increasing life expectancy. OTher phenomena explain this having nothing to do with Israel.
You know what genocide is. You know you’ve neglected all the other factors determining genocide which confirm Israel is engaged in it.
Do not bring up the genocide issue again here. That goes for any other commenters here. It’s settled law in my case.
Please do not interpret for us the views of others. Actually, the majority of Palestinians support Hamas as opinion polls show. As they also show Hamas would win an election would Fatah permit one. If things were different I would support any other party than Hamas that truly represented Palestinians. I am not a fan. But I am even less a fan of Israeli genocide. Given that, Hamas is all there is.
You’re daft. It no more represents West Banks Palestinians than Al Capone represented Chicago. It is detested by every Palestinian there except those on its gravy train. It represents grifters, not Palestinians.
What a movement wants and what it will accept are two different things. Hamas would accept a 2 state solution if it were offered. That is a compromise it would accept, but which Israel has rejected fro decades. 2 states will not be offered so the issue is moot. There is only one other alternative and that is a one state solution.
Actually, history and most geopolitical academic experts say that militarization of conflicts increases the chances for war, not decreases. Israel having WND increases Israeli militarism, rejectionism and adventurism. If Israel had the weapons Palestinians have there would be little or no conflict at all because it could not impose its will by force, as it can now.
Israel keeps going on and on with that idiotic excuse “there is no proof showing it was done by us”.
When Israel destroyed in 2009 a building with a clinic financed by Finnish Church, Finland demanded an official explanation from Israel. Israeli army studied for months the incident and then in the reply was that there had been a secret weapon chase in the building. The reply also included that IDF did not know that there was a clinic in the building and that they would not have bombed it if they had known about the clinic. The clinic had been operating there for years and there was a huge medical site sign on the roof. So Israelis in earnest tried on governmental level to claim that they knew, that in the building is a secret hidden weapon storage, but they did not know about there operating public clinic. The second fired missile did hit straight in the clinic. Surely everybody believes in that Israeli explanation of the situation.
This is the Israeli standard way of providing insane weak defence to their clear war crimes. If in case of a normal violent robbery and killing case the performer’s defence would present as idiotic claims as Israeli state did give in the clinic case, the defence team would be laughed out of the court.
US Intelligence: Palestinian rocket.
French Intelligence: Palestinian rocket.
Canadian Intelligence: Not Israeli strike. Probably Palestinian rocket.
British Intelligence: Palestinian rocket.
AP independent analysis: Palestinian rocket.
Wall Street Journal independent analysis: Palestinian rocket.
Numerous experts and OSINT analysts: Palestinian rocket.
Forensic Architecture: Not a Palestinian rocket based on claimed direction from which rocket was fired, disregarding that a FAILING rocket does not follow a ballistic trajectory. Probably Israeli artillery shell, based in part on similarity of crater with crater caused by a Russian Grad ROCKET., and despite the facts that (1) an Israeli artillery shell would have left easily recognizable shrapnel that Hamas would have paraded in front of cameras all day long, and (2) no military ever fires a single artillery shell to strike a target.
RS: I believe this ^^^ analysis only.
Forensic Architecture, Earshot and the Ramallah based NGO Al Haq have shared new information with Channel 4
Whizzing sound of falling debris … Doppler effect
Yeah, I heard the guy from Earshot (“Sonic investigations for communities affected by corporate, state, and environmental injustices”) on NPR yesterday. “LAWRENCE ABU HAMDAN: We’re saying that it reduces the probability that this is coming from the West. It’s rocket science, after all, so we can’t completely rule it out.”
On the other hand, “CNN consulted a leading American acoustic expert who spoke anonymously due to a lack of permission to speak publicly from the expert’s university. The acoustic expert analyzed the sound waveform and concluded that although the changes in frequency indicated the projectile was in motion, no information could be gleaned regarding the direction of the motion.”
The non-rocket analysis is just so weak relative to the available information and other analyses, done by more credible organizations.
“… leading American acoustic expert who spoke anonymously … “
🤣
I mean, that would be a fair point if the authorities on the “non-rocket” side had any weight to them at all. Essentially the entire intelligence community in the western world, major news organizations independent analyses’, and numerous other experts and OSINT analysts says it’s most likely a Palestinian rocket.
On the other side, a group of expressly pro-Palestinian bodies whose facially improbable conclusion (Israeli artillery shell) relies on analysis containing obvious errors, which have been pointed out without response (e.g., mistook Ukraine crater created in by rocket for one created by artillery shell). A crying-laughing emoji really is appropriate here.
NPR two minute podcast …
Marc Garlasco was the Pentagon’s chief of high-value targeting during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003.
Rex — Yes… I don’t these all these reports are just repeating the same analysis.
I meant to say I don’t think these reports are repeating the same analysis over and over. I am going with the preponderance of what seems like well considered numerous conclusions versus a preliminary FA that has not been updated. and in fact I do not see the initial preliminary on the hospital. That said. FA seems like a very interesting source and endeavor.
Richard you have not updated. Or do you still claim it was Israel’s doing?
In general lying is rampant in this fog. So there is lying on both sides. But that does not mean that the truth is a matter of which side you are on or that the liars never tell the truth. This is how liars shoot themselves ultimately and how bias gets prompted.
Great information! Far better than what you will ever hear on MSM, or MSM so called alternatives. Keep me posted and add me to your mailing list for sure……I follow Democracy now and I find them to be credible.
(Published 8 hours ago)
Oui,
You are being slightly disingenuous.
The NY Times said:
“But The Times concluded that the missile in the video was never near the hospital. It was launched from Israel, not Gaza, and appears to have exploded above the Israeli-Gaza border, at least two miles away from the hospital.”
To put it simply, the Al-Jezeera video was of an Israeli projectile that exploded in mid-air two miles from the hospital.
How could a projectile that had already exploded, cause the explosion and fire in the hospital’s parking lot? It couldn’t.
Shall we move on?
@ Yellow: Keep your eyes on the prize as I did in my revised post (added NY Times investigation results). Key piece of evidence purporting to support Israeli claims was either fabricated deliberately or used in error to support its narrative. Either way, it discredits the Israeli version to the extent that a major piece of “evidence,” isn’t
Oui your link is not from the NYTimes. The NYTimes is not the making a conclusion that your clip from “Dawn” is or seems to be insinuating here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html?
Quote:The video shows a projectile streaking through the darkened skies over Gaza and exploding in the air. Seconds later, another explosion is seen on the ground.
The footage has become a widely cited piece of evidence as Israeli and American officials have made the case that an errant Palestinian rocket malfunctioned in the sky, fell to the ground and caused a deadly explosion at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza City.
But a detailed visual analysis by The New York Times concludes that the video clip — taken from an Al Jazeera television camera livestreaming on the night of Oct. 17 — shows something else. The missile seen in the video is most likely not what caused the explosion at the hospital. It actually detonated in the sky roughly two miles away, The Times found, and is an unrelated aspect of the fighting that unfolded over the Israeli-Gaza border that night.
The Times’s finding does not answer what actually did cause the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital blast, or who is responsible. The contention by Israeli and American intelligence agencies that a failed Palestinian rocket launch is to blame remains plausible. But the Times analysis does cast doubt on one of the most-publicized pieces of evidence that Israeli officials have used to make their case and complicates the straightforward narrative they have put forth. ” End Quote .. NYTimes linked above w video
We do not know what or who was responsible and it may be too late as the evidence can be compromised.