40 thoughts on “Israeli Terror Suspect, Amiram Benoliel, Confesses to Dawabsheh Murder – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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    1. Are you out of your mind? I’ve uploaded the judicial appeal by Odess’ attorney outlining specific acts of torture. Odess’ himself has claimed he tried to commit suicide. The families have confirmed the torture, yet you say “not a shred of proof” has been offered?

  1. the reference and link :

    ” In this judicial document, Odess’ lawyer asks an Israeli court to end his client’s torture at the hands of the Shabak.”

    seems like reasonable evidence to me !

  2. I don’t understand why you disparage rabbi lau. He has no authority to excommunicate anybody. In fact excommunication is no more practiced by orthodox people. Excommunication was a tool of the galut when jews had no legal standing and had to resort to communal pressure. Today in Israel we have police and a justice system that takes care of these things. At most rabbi lau can express moral outrage which he did.

    1. @ eli: That is absolutely false. The tools for excommunication exist and can be used. Even if they couldn’t there are numerous ways to ostracize Jews from the community when they violate the norms of Judaism. Yet Lau will use none of them. He is toothless.

      He is the chief rabbi, the foremost representative of Judaism in Israel. Of course, there are steps he could take against them.

  3. Ummmm… No, these people are NOT animals. They are authentic representatives of what the National Religious movement has been inching and edging towards, ever since the late 60’s and early 70’s.

    And no, this video is not nauseating to watch. It is educational. It is saddening. It is disturbing. But it forensic evidence into what Judaism has been transformed by messianic zeal, racism and o’eweening pride.

  4. Mr. Silverstein — to your “where does it end?” there’s but ONLY ONE answer
    When 220 millions are sent by “well meaning (yeah rite) american jewry” this is SEED MONEY
    what you spend hours investigating and reporting and harking for sanity IS NOTHING BUT THE STRAIGHT LINE RESULT
    How can it be ended, the same way ISIS will be – BY CHOCKING ITS FUNDS,

  5. Will Amnesty or HRW issue a statement condemning torture against Jewish terrorists? I don’t think so. They only do so when it comes to Arab terrorists. They are not honest, their only purpose is to bash and slander Israel.

    Also, there is no evidence that the suspects were tortured by the Shin Bet. I mean, you should provide some evidence to back your claims, don’t you think? But if they were actually tortured, I would not feel bad for them. I mean, they, just like Arab terrorists, chose to kill innocent people; they, just like Arab terrorists, chose to became monsters. Now they should pay for it.

    Richard, most Israeli Jews are disgusted by that video. That is not representative of most Israeli Jews, and you know that, and that is not Judaism. So please stop lying. This was even condemned by Chief Rabbi. When will Palestinian religious leaders condemn daily incitement against Jews…?

    1. @ Bad Boy: Of course Amnesty & HRW won’t adopt the settler terrorists. They only adopt non-violent victims. The settlers are guilty of murder (presumably). They are not eligible for consideration. But if you tell them to embrace non-violence, they would be eligible.

  6. @Marc
    “No, these people are NOT animals. They are authentic representatives of what the National Religious movement …”
    This is a blatant lie and false generalization. If I said something similarly false, like “Islamic Jihad suicide bombers are authentic representatives of the Palestinian national movement” I would immediately be called out by Richard as a liar and probably banned.

    1. @ Yehuda: No, it’s not a lie at all. The National Religious movement was at one time a loyal participant in the Israeli political process. It cooperated with its opponents and did not advocate an agenda consisting of power, land, and perquisites. Now it is a bastardized version of its former self. If Yosef Burg were alive he wouldn’t recognize it & would recoil in horror.

  7. בחור טוב , you are so full of it!
    HRW and Amnesty always criticize all parties that deserve criticsm. Here is for instance what they have to say about the Palestinian Authority’s human rights record.
    You want them to react RIGHT NOW on this case without a proper investigation? Will you maybe graceously permit them to include this case in their next report? Or do these Jews deserve a separate report all of their own, so that their torture not be lumped together with that of mere Palestinians?

  8. @Yehuda

    You are twisting my words, old chap. I did not claim that these people _are_ an authentic representation (…etc), but rather _what the National-Religious Judaism (NRJ) has been inching towards_ (…etc) . Yes – not all of NRJ is there already. But the outliers are getting more numerous, more vociferous, more vicious and the general NRJ mass is silently shifting thataway, for a whole slew of reasons.

    So – which I lack the power or the inclination to ban you, I can point out that you are misrepresenting what I said. Wilfully? I know not.

  9. Americans for a Safe Israel

    Helen Freedman, executive director of the right-wing Americans for a Safe Israel, said that her group would not take a stance opposing the Israeli security authorities’ use of harsh interrogation tactics.

    “Whatever Arabs experience in prison is something separate and apart from what Jews experience. Arabs are terrorists, they’re killers… Every single day there’s Arab terrorism. So why are we equating that with what these boys supposedly did?”

    [Source: The Forward]

  10. @Marc
    The clear tone and intent of your remark was to impugn the national religious movement and that the people in the film are not just a lunatic fringe. This is not true (BTW I am secular center-right). If you are talking about the process of radicalization, consider this. In the 70s and 80s there was Gush Emunim. A large portion of the NRP believed in Greater Israel. There was no such thing as the PA or even discussion of a Palestinian state. There was political violence, including a plot to blow up the Temple mount, and the murder of Emil Grunzweig in 1983. Now consider presently, that Bennett, and most people in the NRP, have no illusions of a Greater Israel, and even float their own versions of a Palestinian entity (not ones acceptable to the Palestinians, granted, but at least they acknowledge a Palestinian national identity). The whole discussion has shifted to how to deal with the Palestinian issue, not just to deny that they exist. Remember Golda Meir’s remark? “What Palestinians?”.
    While it is true that since the implosion of the peace process in the past few years, the reaction has been hardening of their positions. There has been jerking to the right or left, depending on what is happening. But the radicals within the right wing are considered criminals, period. And every leader across the political spectrum has condemned them.
    So if anything, the larger trend over the last several decades is that the general mainstream dialogue has been shifting leftwards, not to the right. There is an acknowledgement that ruling over the Palestinians is bad, and that they aren’t going anywhere and neither are we. There is awareness that the status quo cannot continue indefinitely and that going to a one binational state solution is undesirable. There is awareness that Israel must remain a democracy and Jewish. Yes, many people are still in denial, but a clear majority of the Israeli public would accept a two state solution that brought peace. Every single poll has shown that.
    To say otherwise is overgeneralization and untruthful.

    1. @ Yehuda:

      BTW I am secular center-right

      It doesn’t matter what you say you are. Since there is no center in Israeli politics, you’re a rightist. You’re just not quite as right as the far-right of the Likud. You vote Lapid or Kahlon or one of the other indistinguishable parve politicians of the vague soft right. Sorry, not impressed.

      As for your defending the National Religious Party, that just makes you a soft-core settlerist, since what’s left of NRP has been hijacked by the settler movement. Congrats, you’ve just nailed yourself to your own settler cross (er, Jewish star).

      There was no such thing as the PA or even discussion of a Palestinian state

      In the “70s & 80s?” Where have you been living? Or were you even living then. Of course there was discussion of a Palestinian state. You just never heard it because you knew nothing about what Palesinians & even liberal Jewish groups (like the ones with which I was then involved) were advocating.

      Bennett, and most people in the NRP, have no illusions of a Greater Israel

      Again, you’re nuts. Scratch beneath Bennet’s bald pate & you’ll find a dyed in the wool settlerist, 3rd Templelist. He has his own plan for ethnic cleansing, which essentially is a slightly revised version of Greater Israel. No Bennett lives in the same time honored traditions of Gush Emunim and even Kahane. He’s just a smoother, better produced brand. Please don’t defile the comment threads with the notion that Bennett supports even a Palestinian “entity.” That will get you laughed out of the threads here. I have NEVER heard Bennett acknowledge a “Palestinian identity.” Why don’t you offer some proof of that. By that, I don’t mean where he uses the word “Palestinian.”

      The whole discussion has shifted to how to deal with the Palestinian issue

      No the whole discussion has shifted to how to get rid of the Palestinian issue. Not to deal with it, unless ethnic cleansing or destroying Al Aqsa is now called “dealing with it.”

      There has been jerking to the right or left,

      I am about to institute a ban on right-wing commenters using the term “left.” It comforts their dear little right wing hearts to be able to call Kahlon or Lapid the “left” when they’re not even close, not even liberal let alone left. For you, the left means only shooting Palestinians in the legs instead of killing them outright.

      radicals within the right wing are considered criminals, period. And every leader across the political spectrum has condemned them.

      Violent settlers are not the radical right wing. They are the twin brothers of the rest of the right wing. They are the externalized, overt expression of every value of the mainstream right wing. And as I’ve written here many times, it don’t mean shit to condemn someone. Words in the Israeli context are bullshit. Anyone can say words. Any words they want. Bibi has lied to the world speaking words which embraced a 2 state solution. They were bullshit. So is what you wrote here about condemnation.

      Show me convicted killers. Show me a president who promises he will never pardon them. Show me an attorney general who arrests hundreds of them in a sweep and prosecutes all of them. Show me a PM who stands behind the AG. Then you & I can talk. Till then, spare me the drama.

      the larger trend over the last several decades is that the general mainstream dialogue has been shifting leftwards, not to the right

      I’ve mentioned this movie quote before so I apologize to those who’ve read it here, but you’re like the woman in Hester Street who says: “You can’t piss on my back and tell me it’s rain.” You’re selling a treif pig in a poke, buddy. We ain’t buyin’.

      There is awareness that the status quo cannot continue indefinitely

      On the contrary, Israel’s political leadership has for decades embraced the mantra (even if unspoken) that status quo is viable & preferable to a real solution in which Israel would have to give up its colonial ambitions.

      There is awareness that Israel must remain a democracy and Jewish.

      NOpe, not that either. Israel is not a democracy and has not been one for years. Every fiber of the Israeli right which has ruled the country for the past nearly 50 years is anti democratic. And it only grows increasingly so.

      a clear majority of the Israeli public would accept a two state solution that brought peace.

      MOre bullshit. When you get a PM who will immediately recognize a Palestinian state, accept 1967 borders and the Right of Return (which is what a 2 state solution entails) then you can claim Israel accepts a 2 state solution. Till then, you’re lying to us & yrself. Israel’s support a 2 state solution on Bibi’s terms, which isn’t a 2 state solution. It’s a 1 1/2 state solution, if that.

      You’re done in this thread. Your comment was full of so much crap I can’t bear to read any more from you in this thread.

  11. @Yehudah

    You wrote:

    “But the radicals within the right wing are considered criminals, period. And every leader across the political spectrum has condemned them.
    So if anything, the larger trend over the last several decades is that the general mainstream dialogue has been shifting leftwards, not to the right.”

    Asher Schechter wrote today in Haaretz (I have capitalised the statements that flatly contradict yours):

    “The malignant tumor that is Judeo-ISIS did not grow in a vacuum. It was fermented by right-wing MKs funneling money and resources to settlements for decades; making racist statements in order to pander to right-wing radicals; taking selfies with Meir Kahane-supporting thugs in full fascist regalia, like Culture Minister Miri Regev; it was abetted by politicians who launched social media campaigns in favor of torture and death penalties, like former MK Sharon Gal; who called for the destruction of Gaza and the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians during Operation Protective Edge, like Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked; who incited against “Arab voters going to the polls in droves” in order to get reelected, like Netanyahu.

    The images of this horror wedding are reprehensible, but it’s important to put our disgust into context. The images did not reveal anything we didn’t know. They are not the first of their kind. Such “celebrations”, featuring the same sort of racist chants and bloodlust, have been taking place for two decades at least.

    THIS CLIP WAS NOT AN ANOMALY AND THE CELEBRANTS ARE NOT SOME FRINGE PHENOMENON. It is a manifestation of a malignancy that has been allowed to grow and metastasize, thanks to opportunist politicians and public apathy.

    It is the inevitable result of ministers inciting people from settlement rooftops, it is the result of MKs calling for the Supreme Court to be demolished with bulldozers, of MKs calling Palestinians “animals”, of ordinary people beating foreigners bus stations while screaming “death to Arabs!”, of thugs looking for Arabs to beat up in the streets of Jerusalem – and seeing they can get away with it.

    But it’s not just  politicians on the right who should take responsibility. Left-wing and centrist politicians also played an important part in creating the atmosphere that led to the radicalization of the right, whether by turning a blind eye to it, or BY ACTIVELY PANDERING TO ISRAEL’S INCREASINGLY RIGHT-LEANING ELECTORATE.

    The clip is the inevitable result of Israel’s continued presence in the West Bank. It is also the result of incessantly denying evidence contradicting Israel’s self-image as the most moral nation that ever was. (As luck would have it, the release of the wedding video comes at the heels of a very public, very ugly onslaught carried out by right-wing and centrist politicians against Breaking the Silence and other left-wing NGOs that try to remind Israelis of the moral price involved with occupying millions of Palestinians.)”


  12. @Richard

    “Are you out of your mind? ”

    No. I’m not out of my mind.
    A court order allowing for enhanced interrogation for a ‘ticking timebomb’, is a proof.

    Defense attorney claims are not proofs. They are mere assertions.

    The wedding video is a vile display.
    I blame the Netanyahu government, and the Yesha Counsel leadership and rabbis, for allowing these excesses to occur.

    Shame on them all.

    1. @ Barbar: Don’t be an idiot. THe Shabak itself has conceded publicly that it’s torturing the settler boys. THe defense lawyer appeal confirms this. The court’s rejection of the appeals says, in effect, we accept torture in this case because the murder of the Palestinian family was a heinous crime. That torture in this case violates the Supreme Court ruling prohibiting torture is ignored.

      Look, if you want to talk shit you can do it somewhere else. I’m simply not going to entertain stupidity & claims that are patently false.

      You’re done in this thread. I have no patience for it.

  13. The video also shows someone holding a Molotov cocktail. The cloth wick is clearly visible prootruding from the neck of the bottle.

    1. @ Barbar: Umm, where have I seen before soldiers pissing on Qurans? Oh that’s right they were American. Where have I seen soldiers defecating in Arab homes? Oh that’s right, it was the IDF in Gaza. Where have I seen swastikas on the walls of Druze villages put there by settlers? Oh that’s right, in the Israeli occupied Golan.

      But even if we want to ignore all that & take yr comment at face value–doesn’t it disturb you that Israelis are behaving as badly as ISIS terrorists? Doesn’t that make you want to scream? Doesn’t it make you disgusted with your government for permitting it and doing virtually nothing against it? Doesn’t it disgust you that Israeli rabbis, hundreds of them if not thousands, approve of the general political agenda of these radical settlers (if they might’ve have found some of the video mildly disgusting)?

      You see that’s where we differ. You come up with excuses and waffle. You obfuscate and divert. Instead of meeting things head on & doing what needs to be done to stop the madness.

  14. @Richard Silverstein

    But they’ll gladly adopt Arab terrorists or Guantanamo Taliban detainees, just to name some. Amnesty even adopted Samir Kuntar, whom they called a “political prisoner”. I guess Samir Kuntar was a “non-violent victim”!

    Also, in April 2015 Amnesty voted down a motion to oppose anti-Semitism in Great Britain, the only resolution rejected at its 2015 conference, while they had devoted an extensive report to anti-Muslim prejudice in Britain.

    It seems that anyone, even the worst criminals, is eligible for consideration… but Jews are not. Don’t you think this is anti-Semitic discrimination?

    1. @ Bad Boy: That is a lie. Neither Amnesty nor HRW has ever adopted a prisoner who practiced or advocated violence. Never. If you publish a lie like this in future you will be moderated or banned. They did NOT adopt Kuntar.

      in April 2015 Amnesty voted down a motion to oppose anti-Semitism

      Here’s a comment rule: if you post a claim you support it either with a link or quotation. If you don’t you’re as good as a liar. Amnesty NEVER voted down any motion to oppose anti Semitism. They may’ve voted down a resolution which you INTERPRET as opposing anti-Semitism. But that’s not the same thing.

      It seems that anyone, even the worst criminals, is eligible for consideration

      A despicable lie. You have been warned. Your next comment rule violation will be your last.

  15. Richard:
    Did you actually just say the following?
    “Of course, there are many Jews in Israel, even Orthodox Jews, who are disgusted by the Dawabsheh murders and videos like this. But they’ve become AN EVEN SMALLER MINORITY than they used to be.”
    Are you seriously claiming that most Israeli Jews condone the murders and the videos?

    1. @ Yaniv: Thanks for pointing out my imprecision. I meant to refer to Orthodox Jews disgusted by the Dawabsheh murders & the wedding video. They are the ones in a smaller minority than they used to be. It would’ve been more correct to say that the number of all Israeli Jews disgusted by the murders & video is quite a bit smaller than it would’ve been say 10 or 20 years ago.

  16. @Barbar (your first comment)

    “Gillon warned of a terrorist underground “that aims to destroy the Jewish, democratic state of Israel.”

    Responding to allegations that the service used torture in the interrogation of the Duma detainees, he said: “This is terrorism but also a ticking bomb – both conditions set by the High Court of Justice for allowing special permits in interrogations.”

    His comments echoed a statement by the Shin Bet earlier this week, which defended the use of “special measures” in interrogations not only due to the seriousness of the crime but mainly because the detainees belonged to a Jewish terror organization that was planning further attacks.”

    The Times of Israel 12/26/2015

  17. Richard:
    Thank you for that correction. While I agree with your last sentence there, I think you’re wrong on Orthodoxy as well. The numbers and percentages are certainly greater than they were, but saying that most Orthodox Jews in Israel condone the murders is still unwarranted in my opinion, and I would challenge you to back up this statement. In the meantime, here’s an interesting poll at a one of the most popular Haredi sites – Kikar Hashabat.
    “Should Shabak torture the Duma detainees?”
    1. No! Torture is forbidden, whether the tortured are Jews or Arabs. (62%)
    2. Yes, these are suspected terrorists and murderers. (15.5%)
    3. I trust Shabak interrogators (22%)
    Note the “missing” answer.
    Of course this is not a scientific poll, nor is the target readership for the site representative of all of Israeli Orthodox Jewry. But the missing answer is telling, and the results interesting.

    1. @ Yaniv: The poll was contrived to get the results the editor wanted. The first question asked was “Should Shabak torture the Duma detainees.” IN other words they asked whether Shabak should torture JEWISH prisoners. The fact that one of the responses offered the possibility of rejecting torture of both Jews and Arabs is irrelevant. The question asked is what people respond to.

      A much better & more honest way to pose the question would be:

      1. Is is permissible to torture Arab security prisoners?
      2. Is it permissible to torture Jewish security prisoners?

      Lumping both Jews & Arabs in the same question, especially putting the word “Jews” first, generates a misleading result. Not to mention that torture right now is in the media in terms of Jews only. So naturally respondents will be thinking only of Jewish torture, regardless of the wording of the question.

      I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “the missing answer.”

  18. @Richard:
    The “missing” answer would indeed be to separate Jewish torture and Arab torture, Your claim about “what the editor wanted” is kind of the point – the phrasing attests to his assumptions. But never mind.

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