23 thoughts on “Presidential Candidates Gun-Shy on Israeli-Palestinian Conflict – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Little problem with your theory. Israel accepted the Clinton plan in 2000. The Palestinians said no and launched their war. Only Arabs have this idea that they can do things without any consequences. But lets leave that aside for a second. Let me ask you this, give me one example of pressure that you would put on the Arabs. Or let me put it another way. Since in your mind Israel can wind the conflict up before 60 minutes airs tongiht what would be your plan? What would you do?

  2. Richard – How about creating a different Israeli “Factor” poll or getting IPF to do so. Gather some straight thinking Israeli analysts, and have them rank the candidates on which ones will truly help the Israelis and Palestinians come to a peace agreement. I’m much more likely to put stock in such a ranking than in Rosner’s polls.

    The internet makes it a lot easier to compete with AIPAC In fact, the IPF should be doing a lot more to pull in younger American Jews to sign online petitions and conduct polls.


  3. Bill: Yr comment seems to have nothing to do w. this post & perhaps you meant to post it elsewhere here. Anyway, if you read Gen. Zvi Fogel’s acct. of the 2000 intifada you would realize that the Palestinians didn’t “launch” it. Actually, the IDF provoked the Palestinians into beginning the hostilities which had virtually nothing to do w. Camp David. Yr. view of history is a delusion foisted upon the world by Ehud Barak & others to place blame squarely on the other side. Only pro Israel partisans accept this version of events. I won’t go into it here but do a search on Fogel’s name here & then try to rebut the words of the soldier who commanded IDF troops in Gaza at the time.

    What was offered in 2000 wasn’t sufficient for the Palestinians. The Arab League plan of 2002 is what will become the basis for a full peace settlement & it calls for a return to 67 boundaries w. a few alterations to incorporate the largest settlement blocs.

    DP: I like that idea very much. I’ll think about it. Maybe I can get some bloggers & other academics to join in on this project.

  4. Since you presume to know the collective mind of the Palestinians let me ask you this. What would be enough for them?

  5. Having spent a great deal of time with Palestinians, inside and outside of Palestine, my understanding of what they want is merely what is theirs under international laws.

    Removal of all Jewish settlers and soldiers from Palestine
    Dismantling of the sections of the apartheid wall that are built east of the ’67 border
    Recognition of their right to a capital in East Jerusalem
    Right of return to their homes and villages from which they fled or were driven 60 years ago

  6. Got it Mary. Basically the Palestinians want the destruction Of Israel, Which is exactly my contention. Which you just confirmed.

  7. Bill, how do you figure that giving back to the Palestinians what is rightfully theirs is a threat to Israel? Nobody is suggesting Israelis leave the land they were permitted to share with those already living there. How is removing the illegal settlements in Palestine (ALL Jewish settlements in Palestine are illegal under international law) a problem? If Israel had not thought it could get away with stealing all of historic Palestine, any problems would have been settled decades ago.

    Of course if you’re referring to the end of Israel “as a Jewish state” then that’s different. A Jewish state can never be a democracy, so assuming Israel would like to be a democracy it would seem long past time for it to begin behaving like one, and to stop trying to make Israel an apartheid state, worse, according to Bishop Desmond Tutu, than South Africa ever was.

    It sounds as if you are suffering from a touch of typical zionist paranoia.

  8. So your plan is that all the Jews living past the 1967 cease fire lines are ejected from their homes. All Jewish religious sites come under Arab sovreignty. Then 4-5 million Palestinians are moved back into Israel proper. Then Israel ceases to be a Jewish state and becomes another Islamic theocratic state. Wow Mary, I can’t believe that their not embracing that one in the knesset.

  9. Since you presume to know the collective mind of the Palestinians let me ask you this. What would be enough for them?

    I don’t presume anything, Bill. You are the one presuming to claim what I know or don’t know. I’ve outlined my position on the question you ask scores of times here in posts & comments. Basically, a return to 67 borders with a few territorial adjustments.

    Regarding the Right of Return issue. NO ONE, including right wing Israeli demagogues has ever claimed that 4-5 million Palestinians would return to Israel. The estimates are that only 600,000 would even be eligible to do so and considerably less than that would if they were given enough financial incentive to settle elsewhere. Mind you, I’m not arguing for a full physical Right of Return. But yr number is pulled out of a hat or a lower part of one’s anatomy.

  10. Rick: That’s an interesting question regarding Ron Paul. I went back to The Factor & he’s not even ranked at all among all the candidates. I don’t understand how Rosner makes such a decision considering that Paul is a valid candidate. Interestingly, Dennis Kucinich isn’t ranked either. Hmmmm, do I see a pattern here?

  11. I’m just taking Marys number. But lets for the sake of argument take yours. Your saying that Israel has to pull every Jew back over the geen line. Give up sovreignty over all the Jewish religious sites. ( and boy that worked well with the ancient synagogue in Jericho or Josephs tomb ) And take in 600,000 of those happy go lucky lads from Islamic Jihad and Hamas. What exactly do the Arabs give up here? And can you give me one reason why Israel should go with this brilliant plan?

  12. The endless moralizing of a person living in California, who lives there due to the past racist ideology of “white man’s burden” and the mesianic ideology of “manifest destiny” on land acquired through warfare on a blog by a man living on territrory “stolen” from the Duwamish and Suquamish tribes is amazing.

  13. I agree with Richard that most of the dispossessed Palestinians would want to return to live in their former homes and villages in what became Israel. What they seem to want most of all is an acknowledgement from Israel of the crimes that were committed against them (read Ilan Pappe’s THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINE for a comprehensive chronology of those crimes)

    It isn’t a matter of whether Israel wants these Palestinians to return to their land, but a matter of what Israel is required to accept as international law.

    As Richard said, it’s doubtful that many displaced Palestinians would want to return to their land, or live under Israeli rule, particularly in view of the apartheid rule which prevails in Israel.

    Many of them would, however, appreciate being able to at least visit the villages inhabited by their ancestors for many generations, which Israel has never allowed them to do. And of course Israel must pay restitution for everything that was stolen from the Palestinians who were driven out, even as Germany continues to pay restitution to Jews for the property stolen from them.

    As for Jewish settlers east of the green line, of course they must leave, since they have always been living there illegally, so long as Israel claims those areas as “Israel.” If individual colonists choose to apply for Palestinian residency and live under Palestinian rule and control with rights equal to the Palestinian population, then I’m sure this would be acceptable, so long as they surrender their Uzis and stop flying the Israeli flag, which has no place in Palestine. Any who want to continue living under Israel rule must of course go back to Israel. Where do you have a problem with that, Bill?

    There is no parity between Israeli Arabs who have Israeli citizenship and Israeli Jews living on Palestinian land outside of Israel in contravention of international law, and it is disingenuous to make such comparisons.

    As far as “territorial adjustments” I don’t see how that could work. So long as there are Jewish colonies inside Palestine there will always be Israeli soldiers “protecting them.” Having spent a great deal of time in the West Bank I can assure you it is the Palestinians who need protection from the settlers, many of whom are violent sociopaths driven by biblical mumbo jumbo that they claim gives them all of the land due to some divine right.

    I don’t know if you’ve spent any time in Hebron, but I suggest you make a point of visiting the area to see for yourself the price the Palestinian civilian population pays for owning and existing on land coveted by the zionist state.

    The reality, however, is that there isn’t enough left of the West Bank to form a state, while the people of Gaza being systematically starved. So it is becoming increasingly clear, especially to the zionist camp, that unless something changes Israel’s direction there will be a single state for all the people. Since the Palestinians aren’t going anywhere, it’s just a matter of time before the Jewish majority, and consequently the Jewish state, will be history. Of course it will be an apartheid state for the foreseeable future, but justice will prevail. In the end the Palestinians’ patience will be rewarded and they will be granted peace.


  14. I understand the plan Mary. The West Bank is to be, I believe the expression is “judenrhein”. Then 4-5 million Palestinians are given the right to move into Israel but of course you can guaranttee that only a small percentage will do that. But of course the rest get compensation for their marble palaces and orange groves that were destroyed by the Zionist jackboot. All Jewish religious sites come under Palestinian control. But, we’re not talking population exchange because Israeli Arabs, who by very right should be fleeing the genocide being carried out by the Judeo-Nazi’s don’t seem to want to leave. Do I have it right. I really can’t imagine why this doesn’t pass 120-0 in the knesset.

  15. Not at all, Bill. Jews should be able to live in the West Bank, as Palestinian Jews, just as there are Palestinian Muslims and Palestinian Christians. I travel all over the West Bank with Jewish friends, and nobody seems to care much what our religious persuasions are. None of us, of course, carry weapons.

    Your Judenrhein comment tells it all. I just wish Israel would stop trying to ethnically cleanse the land outside of Israel of its Palestinian population and give peace a chance. The occupation is worst for the Palestinians, of course, as it is meant to be. But it’s not exactly good for the Israelis. Terrorism will always beget counter-terrorism, as the Nazis discovered in the Warsaw Ghetto. Of course the side with the biggest weapons and the smallest moral compass often prevails in the short term, but history will be the final judge.

  16. Your saying that Israel has to pull every Jew back over the geen line…And take in 600,000 of those happy go lucky lads from Islamic Jihad and Hamas.

    I was trying to be polite, Bill. But I’m done with that. You’re totally obtuse. I said return to the Green Line with some territorial modifications. Are you dense or don’t you understand that this means that not all settlers will have to return over the Green Line? A very small amt. of territory containing the largest number of settlers would be retained in exchange for Israeli territory elsewhere.

    And I said that 600,000 might be eligible to return but that far fewer would.

    And DO NOT use the term “Judenrein” (you can’t even spell) in the context of the I-P conflict in this blog. That’s grounds for banning here. Do it again & you’re permanently banned. In fact, I’m sick & tired of yr bilge. You’re hereby banned.

  17. a person living in California, who lives there due to the past racist ideology of “white man’s burden” and the mesianic ideology of “manifest destiny” on land acquired through warfare on a blog by a man living on territrory “stolen” from the Duwamish and Suquamish tribes…

    This is the 2nd time you’ve made the ludicrous mistake of accusing me of living in California. What’s odd is you figured out that the Duwamish & Suquamish tribes live in area where I reside, yet you seem to think Seattle is in California. You once told me you were Israeli-American. I’m beginning to think you haven’t told the truth. Or else you’re deeply geographically-challenged. Oh, & you left out the Skykomish, Swinomish, Snohomish and several other regional tribes.

    It’s a bit hard for me to see how the grandchild of Jewish immigrants from Poland is guilty for the crimes committed by American colonialist WASPs well before my ancestors arrived in this country.

  18. I was referring to Mary Hughes living in California. I found that on a counterpunch article. I assume she is Mary Hughes-Thompson. I meant that she was writing on your blog. Sorry. I don’t recall the first time I said you lived in California. Perhaps that too was a misunderstanding.

  19. OK, now I understand. Yes, I believe that Mary lives in California. Though I still think yours was a cheap shot. In this global age it matters less & less where people live in terms of their various political commitments. As for Mary’s alleged moralizing, I’ll bet you have very little problem with extremist settler supporters here in the States like Daniel Pipes “immoralizing” about how disgusting Palestinians are. You just don’t like one side’s moralizing. You’re pretty happy with the other’s. That’s a little inconsistency.

    Thanks for clarifying what you meant though. I didn’t follow it when I first read it.

  20. You might find this hard to believe, but I can’t recall if I have ever read an article by Daniel Pipes. I may have, I just don’t rmember. I’ve been to his his website but I think I just looked through it.

  21. You may replace the name “Pipes’ with any number of other propagandists like “Dershowitz” or Irving Moskowitz or many others. They also ‘moralize’ in support of some fairly odious Israeli nationalist positions. And they do so from the comfort of places like “California,” or New York, etc.

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