88 thoughts on “Shin Bet Murders Palestinians Who Killed Three Israeli Youths – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. hi Richard,
    just wondering to myself, why did you choose to put this header :
    “Shin Bet Murders Palestinians Who Killed Three Israeli Youths”
    instead of this one :
    “Shin Bet Killed Palestinians Who Murders Three Israeli Youths”

    1. @ izik: First, because the Shin Bet didn’t “kill” them. It murdered them. Second, because you can’t use the word “murder” twice in the same headline.

      Aside from that, I was just wondering why you’re so petty & act like a jerk. Can you explain that?

      1. This was a serious comment, and deserved a better response than that. Like many other people who read your page, this person was clearly struck by the empathy that you show for Hamas murderers, combined withe unending criticism that you have for the Israeli defense forces who try to protect us from them.

        In this case, I cretainly have no sorrow over the death of these murderers. Experience has shown that capturing them alive only leads to more excuses for Hamas kidnappings, and ultimately to these murderers going free. That is not justice.

        1. It is very unlikely that these kidnappers would have gotten off free if they had been put on trial. The question is whether we are dealing here with a mere example of Shin Bet brutality or whether it was acting on orders from outside its own circle? Is the establishment worried that a regular trial might have brought out things which it prefers to remain hidden because they go counter to its own propaganda (and the “information” of people such as Melissa)?

        2. @ Melissa Barnard: That is a disgusting lie. I’ve shown no empathy for murderers. I’ve merely asked to uphold the rule of law. If you wish to live by the laws of the jungle, I suggest you move to the Congo and try your luck there. I expect more of Israel. If you don’t, don’t make me sick by lying about what I write.

          Remember I have a comment rule against supporting the murder of anyone. You are on the cusp of banning. Be forewarned.

          1. Glad to see you feel that were the ‘boys’ (sic and sick) captured they would have got a fair trial in the Israeli military courts which would have ‘upheld the rule of law’ as you ‘expect of Israel’

          2. Melissa’s point is that it wouldn’t have been life in prison. It would have been 10 years until the next “prisoner swap” or release as a “gesture” to the PLO.

          3. [Comment deleted: If you do not read & respect the comment rules you will be banned. I don’t explain or defend editorial decisions about comments deleted, edited, ignored, contradicted or otherwise.]

      2. You were quite clear as to why you used the term “murder” rather than “kill” with respect to the actions by Israel. In short, the term “kill” could not adequately capture what had actually occurred. If that is correct, then your argument regarding the linguistic convention of not using the word “murder” twice in a headline is irrelevant. Even if the aforementioned is a convention, it is a greater convention to not use inaccurate terminology, which according to your own standards you did by referring to what happened to the Israelis as an act of killing rather than an act of murder.

        1. @ Adam Dayton: Stop with the sophistry. I write the posts. I write the headlines. If you want to write headlines write your own somewhere else. If you want to engage in a serious discussion or argument do so. If you want to argue about how many settlers can dance on the head of a pin, go somewhere else.

      3. The problem is that Israel was lying about these three jews, they weren’t killed by Palestinians, actually, they were killed in a car accident, but the the Israeli had an agreement with their family to hid them for a while and make look like that they were kidnapped and killed by Palestinians, go over the internet, it’s all a big lie so Israel can attack Gaza. We don’t need your sympathy any way for those Palestinian, if you have any heart or a tiny of humanity, you wouldn’t say that, go to Gaza and see the massacre the Zionists did over there!!!!!!

    2. Itzik. You should be so squeamish about wording after we start seeing Israel do similar things to their own, nice Jewish “boys” who “hit” (“Murder…accidentaly of course!) Palestinians, the innocent children who are simply walking to school, the frustrated boys who throw rocks at tanks (as opposed to Orthodox Jews who throw rocks at Sabbath-breaking Jews).

      Israeol has a brutal, murderous, genocidal approach to Christian and Muslims Palestinians, but a kid gloves, indulgent approach to it Jews.

      1. The fact that they need to fabricate a story means they know that it is wrong to kill the suspects. The fact that the state expects and accepts this story after providing the rocket and excavator means that the state permits such things as extrajudicial executions where Palestinians are concerned. The fact that anyone here suggests that the executions were to avoid or sidestep a round of retribution, means they don’t understand what is at stake here. In this last instance, I recognize the voice of a state which accepts extrajudicial executions without blinking. There is a weird moral blindness in Zionist argumentation. I see this all the time. (an aside: when Hawking boycotted Israel, the response was “but look at all the great tech and inventions we have done” as though this has anything to do with the moral issues at the heart of his boycott. They simply don’t see it.)

    3. Regardless of whether Shin Bet murdered or killed the two Palestinians, my own question is why the headline didn’t say the Palestinians were “accused” of killing the three Israeli settler youth. I’m not surprised Israel went straight to execution rather than bothering with the nuisance of a trial and conviction. Flawed as our system is, I thankfully can’t imagine such a headline in a U.S. media report.

      1. An even better word would have been “suspected” since they didn’t even get to stand up in court and be accused.

        1. Er…Mary. I HATE to interrupt a good disciplining of the rogue state of Israel but….America kills “suspects” all the time and continuously and on at least three recent occasions. American citizens were murdered by Presidential command.
          Yes, I know they are only Muslims, but that is what Israeli Jews say too, when they hear of Palestinians being murdered by Israelis, in or out of uniform. Except that Israel hardly ever refers to us Muslims as such, their replacment word for Muslims and Arabs is “terrorist”, which then permits all sorts of atrocities against the Arvit.

          1. @Jafar
            You are correct of course; the U.S. does kill suspects. My point was that at least in the U.S. the victims are called suspects rather than convicted killers, which is what Israel (and this headline) implied.

  2. Thanks for the coverage. It’s a sad, sad day for the principle of justice. Criminals should have their day in court.

    Targeted assassinations have become an act of terror in Israel’s bid to suppress the will of the Palestinian people for independence. The USA has taken the same strategy to strike at AQ terror with little success in the past 13 years. Today president Obama took his act of violence one step further by bombing a sovereign nation contrary to International Law. Acting with impunity as part of the global community applauds and the GCC states joined the attack.

    I don’t fear terror as much as I fear the arrogance of such military might with no UN oversight. John Bolton would be proud.

        1. @oui

          This wasn’t a ‘rogue act’, necessarily. This was well planned, and financed by the brother of the West Bank mastermind, now incarerated. The brother had been banished to Gaza as part of some prisoner exchange deal. How the brother in Gaza got his hands on the $60,000 used to finance the kidnap operation is anyone’s guess.

          Even if the kidnap wasn’t ordered by the Hamas hierarchy in Gaza, all the involved parties were Hamas. It’s even possible that the kidnap was directed by Saleh al-Arouri, a senior Hamas operative, who lives in exile in Turkey.

          1. Fred. By your line of argument, Israel and all of its Jews are responsible whenever an atrocity is committed because “all parties involved, were Israel”. So, what are YOU suggesting? that every Israeli should be murdered for their part in the genocide of the Palestinians?
            I am sure you have the usual partisan blinders on for this topic.

          2. Turkey-based Hamas member Salah al-Arouri is uniquely suited to overseeing the group’s operations in the West Bank

            “The Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade is a separate armed military wing, which has its own leaders who do not take their orders [from Hamas] and do not tell us of their plans in advance.”

            Meshaal resides in Qatar (Muslim Brotherhood protectorate) and al-Aruri lives in exile in Turkey where he has free movement and participates openly in debates and meetings. Turkey with Erdogan is a MB bastion but also allows ISIL to recrute, promote and train fighters to cross the border into Syria. As an educated guess, if Salah al-Aruri was responsible for planning and funding the kidnapping of three Israeli teens, he would have done it as a rogue member of Hamas. His master most likely would be the IS leadership which operates with impunity in Turkey. Qatar has been accused of funding the Islamic State although IS is now self-sufficient. Important to note Hamas had just made a unity agreement with the Palestinian Authority before the kidnapping.

            Another source:
            “Al-Arouri, a senior Hamas religious [?] figure, was in Qatar for the meeting held between exiled political bureau chief Khaled Mashaal, Palestinian Authority President Mahmou Abbas and the Qatari emir, Channel 2 reported.”

            I don’t believe this – see photo of visit with emir of Qatar.

          3. Hamas urges Palestinian leadership to seek ICC justice

            The idea of pursuing an investigation into Israel by the international body is not new, but Hamas said that it, too, has signed a document supporting such a move.

            “Hamas has signed a document demanding Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) go to the International Criminal Court to prosecute Israeli leaders as war criminals for massacres they committed against our people,” Hamas spokesman and senior official Izzat al-Risheq said on Twitter.

            Hamas’ announcement comes a day after one of the group’s leaders admitted that its militants were responsible for the abduction of three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June. The Hamas Political Bureau [?] member Saleh Aruri added that the kidnappers did not tell their leaders about the action. The kidnappings were not approved by Hamas leadership or its military wing, he said.

            From another Israeli source. more propaganda/falsehoods:

            Hamas was getting ready to murder the PA leadership (with which it has been cooperating in Cairo over the past weeks) and to set up a jihadi terror state north of Jerusalem. Senior Hamas leader Salah al-Aruri, based in Turkey, directed the coup as well as the kidnapping of the three teenagers. Hamas operatives in Zarka [hometown of al-Zarqawi !], Jordan as well as in Jenin, Ramallah and Hebron were all involved.

          4. Fred, apparently you don’t know the definition of the word ‘facts’. your comment did not consist exclusively of ‘facts’. buy a dictionary, and hire a logic tutor.

          5. @ Fred: It is completely unacceptable to publish claims unsubstantiated. I’ve published & linked to reports by Israeli journalists refuting what you claim as truth. The kidnappers were as close to Hamas as Ralph Nader is to the Democratic Party. They went rogue. There is absolutely no proof that Hamas had anything to do with this crime. You will not make false statements here. And if you wish to make any claims at all you damn well better support them with credible evidence. Take me very seriously if you wish to continue commenting here. And review what’s been written on the subject to ensure you’re not repeating others who went before you. I hate refuting people advancing the same argument ad nauseam.

          6. It’s funny how Richard is so furious about proper statement of facts yet doesn’t deal at all with claiming these men were 21 year old boys when their actual ages have been posted here twice in reply.

          7. @ Yuval: Four other commenters have made this point & the first one who did so received an explanation from me of how I made the error. Do NOT repeat comments others have already made here.

      1. Richard, we have only Israel’s word the two Palestinians were responsible for the deaths of the 3 settlers. Since they weren’t arrested, tried or convicted I don’t accept they were guilty of any crime.

  3. A joint team of IDF, Shin Bet and Border Police cornered the two Palestinian boys and murdered them.
    Boys? 29 and 33 years old, old boys.

  4. IDF Intercepts Syrian Fighter Plane in the Golan Heights

    The IDF successfully intercepted a Syrian Sukhoi Su-24 fighter/bomber aircraft using a Patriot missile … Syria confirmed the downing of the plane, calling it an “act of aggression”. Syrian television quoted a military source, saying the interception happened “within the framework of Israel’s support of ISIS’ terrorists.”

    Israel protecting Jabhat al-Nusra fighters at Quneitra checkpoint for the new push towards Damascus in the southern front?

    Other sources indicated it was a MIG-21 fighter jet.

  5. [comment deleted–your report is absolutely false and has been proven so by far more reliable ones that aren’t linked directly to the security services as this one is.]

  6. That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable.

  7. No ‘due process’ here. Clearly not unexpected, given a pattern of targeted assassinations and concealment.
    Thank you, Richard.

    1. @poirefrais

      No due process?

      These men were armed and dangerous. They were ordered to surrender and a firefight ensued. How were they denied due process?

      1. Sancta simplicitas. “Armed and dangerous” – oh well it is something else again than “auf der Flucht erschossen”.

      2. Fred. I have just one question for you…well, two.
        Would Israeli Jews have been treated this way?
        What would have been the reaction of Israelis had Jewish murder suspects been killed in this manner?

        Remember, I said “suspects”, no court of law er, justice, had found them guilty of anything.

          1. So now the terror “group” is Shin Bet etc. The question was not what would pre-state groups have done but what would this same group of enforcers do regarding two cornered Jews accused of murder? Would this group have used a rocket?

  8. Richard,

    Are you familiar with the concepts of neo-imperialism and neo-colonialism. Your attempting to portray extrajudicial killings as uncivilized perfectly fits the description. While it may be viewed as “uncivilized” by members of your white male-dominated culture, there are plenty of cultures that see things otherwise. You need only look to how things are done in the Arab world.

    Please refrain from imposing your subjective values (in the absence of empirical evidence proving them other than subjective) onto other cultures.

    1. @ Adam Dayton: I didn’t say such murders were “uncivilized.” They’re a violation of international law, which makes them criminal.

      As for the Arabophobia, not here buddy. You too are on the cusp of banning. Read the comment rules very carefully. And you are forewarned.

      If I need your advice about what I should or shouldn’t do I’ll ask for it. Till I do, mind your own business.

  9. Meanwhile the drama for which these kidnappings provided a pretext is still continuing beyond its bloody phase. The Dutch activist and ex-parliamentarian Anja Meulenbelt, who has been visiting Gaza during this month, reports that the boycott goes on unabated. According to her Hamas has not managed to get any concessions out of the Israelis except for a (temporary?) widening of the sea area Gazans are allowed to fish in. All the declarations by European politicians and in a more muted form by some of their American counterparts that the boycott is unacceptable have apparently not changed one iota in the Israeli cabinet’s attitude – and it is getting away with it, it is getting away with it as always.

  10. we in Israel are delighted with this news. We are very happy that these murderers were not only found but also killed. They will never breath the beautiful Land of Israel air again. They will never be used in an exchange deal & they will never bother us again. Hopefully we will also expel their satanic families out of Israel to Iraq or Qatar too.
    Shana Tova Meod!

    1. A little less joyous could do … this action was just about two. Doesn’t compare to your joy of thanksgiving, the harvest of 2,200 Gazans in recent cliff-hanger of Israel’s military power. How many additional Palestinains were murdered during the raids on the West Bank. Mistreatment of children, arrests and imprisonment. One happy fella! Despicable.

    2. The beautiful air you enjoy — and will be denied these killers now — is borrowed. How you, or anyone, can enjoy the air knowing the price that is paid decade after decade for this injustice, is beyond my comprehension. Israelis are a fearful lot because they know that the EXCLUSIVE Jewish state is dated and doomed, heading for the dustbin of history. Another decade or two, and there will not be a “Jewish” state, and nobody (Jews included) will miss it.

  11. These men could have been captured alive if the Israeli establishment had wanted them to be, but this was clearly not their wish. Israel had so much to hide in this case: For instance the fact that they knew from day 1 that the kidnapped young men were dead (because of the phone recording) but that they kept this secret so that they could conduct razzia’s of the West Bank for weeks to root out Hamas. The weeks of incitement that followed also caused the murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir and led to the the massacre in Gaza.

    Such an important case would have surely warranted a procedure in court, with testimonies from the accused and a proper investigation in which everything would have come out into the open.

    It is so clear that Israel had so much to hide in this case that it could not afford such a trial. ‘Auf der Flucht erschossen’ was their way out. (In other words: Premeditated murder).

    Even proud Israeli nationalists should be worried and ashamed of what happened today: If your state is such a beakon of righteousness, why deal with the suspect in such an important case in such a way? Do you not see the signs of fascism and an authoritarian state approaching?

  12. Richard, your bias is remarkable. Your so-called evidence for the fact that this was an execution is an unnamed “Israeli source” (was he or she an eye-witness?) and a Palestinian governor who refers to murders of Israeli teenagers as “martyrs.”

    1. @ djf: Why would you believe you need to watch an execution in order to know it took place? You mean if someone watched an execution, then told you friend about it, you wouldn’t believe him because he wasn’t there?

      I’ll take my source’s track record anytime over doubters like you.

      1. You don’t have a source, Richard. You make things up and as a result, nobody in the mainstream media takes you seriously. You’re just another guy with a blog.

        1. @adam Dayton: Such a short stay here. What a pity! Since you believe everything I write here lacks credibility I’m going to relieve you of the boredom of having to read and comment on it here. You wouldn’t want to be wasting your time here anyway.

  13. One reason why Israel is getting away with the continuation of its murderous grip on Gaza is the present hysteria about returning jihadists and the terrible things they might do in their home country. This hysteria is stirred up from various sites. Secret services have a vested interest in inflating their findings. Governments in increasing their power. Parties such as Israel in inducing the world to look the other way.

    If jihadists hate us because of our freedoms, as the tale goes, than they have now a little less reason for doing so. In Australia the conservative government is using the whole thing to increase, yet again, the power of the executive and to commit the country, yet again, to action in the Middle East without parliamentary scrutiny. Labor, scared that it might miss out on the populist effects of the hysteria, is going along. Only the Greens are taking a principled and commonsensical stance.

    To treat all returning jihadists the same way even though there is little information about the motivation and actions of many of them (there must be naive and misled boys among them) is having the opposite effect to that which was intended. The state is creating enemies of people, some of whom might not have been so if this populist hysteria was not guiding policy.

    1. What 13 years of America’s WOT and a few years of Geert Wilders does to a nation! Not to mention creating the divide in families as well. A classic example of mass hysteria, media e.a. The murder of Pim Fortuyn played a key role in Dutch politics, the assassin is out free on bail.

  14. Richard,
    You’re a sick person. Loving those who wish to kill you and hating those who would protect you is a real disease.

      1. Yovav Katz’ reasoning is not unusual. Militarized nations create a sense of existential fear in their civilian populations, towards “the enemy”. This then justifies any action the government or its Police and military forces take against this mindless, faceless, enemy and the fear-driven populace feel grateful that they are being protected. Few dare to voice opposition because the same public will roundly vilify them for being unpatriotic and helping “the enemy” drive “us” out of existence. The US, India, Pakistan, Israel and increasingly, Western nations are exhibiting such tendencies and the target du jour is Islam and Muslims.

      2. “It (IDF) actually places all Jews in danger.”

        Jews were hated before the IDF and the state of Israel existed. and not ‘all jews’ would agree to that statement.

        1. @ shay: I don’t really care who agrees or disagrees with my statement. I & almost every other reader of this blog and many Jews know this to be true.

          This is not traditional anti-Semitism. The issue is the hate generated by Israeli slaughter which motivates Islamists to want to attack Israelis (and sometimes Jews if they can’t find Israelis).

    1. Shortening a Life Sentence …

      (MAD) – Physicians For Human Rights-Israel made recommendations regarding the urgent need to transfer prison medical services from the Israeli Prison Service (IPS) to the Ministry of Health, due to the dilemmas of dual loyalty of IPS medical staff and the primacy given to political and security considerations at the expense of prisoners’ health and well-being.

  15. @ Richard,
    The head of this terror cell was arrested 2 months ago – captured ALIVE by the same operating unit.
    You didn’t report it – at least not that i’ve seen it. What’s the difference then? he didn’t started firing at the soldiers.

    anyone who’s been in an infantry unit in israel knows that what happened in Hebron was standard procedure:
    1. you surround the house and call for everyone to come out.
    2. if they do great – if they don’t you start escalating your means – first stones (some units do that and some don’t) after that flashbangs, after that live ammunition to the walls of the house etc etc. the purpose of this is to make the suspects come out without having soldiers risk their live by going in – usually it works in the very early stages.
    3. when someone is shooting from inside the house – you definitely don’t go in! – you do exactly as SWAT did. you fire back and unless he surrenders immediately (which in this case they didn’t) you deteriorate your means up until you fire lau’s rockets – and either kill or make sure that the threat is gone in some other way. again, if the suspects surrenders you stop. when they started shooting they knew what would be the outcome and there was no way soldiers would be put t risk to capture them alive.
    this happened before and will happen again – it has nothing to do with conspiracy etc. it’s how it works according to the basic rules of engagement.

    1. @ shay: My source, who has a higher IDF rank, length of service, acts of valor, & knowledge than you, told me it was a “targeted killing.” You can deceive & delude yourself into believing in IDF righteousness. But the rest of us know what really happened.

      Why would anyone believe the two victims were firing? Do you not think the IDF filmed the incident? Why don’t they show you the video to prove there was firing? So if you have no physical evidence, why would you ever believe the liars of the IDF?

      1. “You’re source.” Would you be willing to take a polygraph test regarding the veracity of your assertion that you have a high ranking IDF member as a source? You will not be asked to reveal any identifying information about this source. You will only be asked questions to verify that such a source in fact exists and that you have seen sufficient evidence of the credentials of this source.

        1. @ Adam Dayton: Yeah, I’ll do that just before I ban you from posting another comment here. I’ll do that because you ‘re such an important reader that I crave your acceptance & respect. And I’ll do that just after you give a lie detector test to every Israeli reporter who’s quoted an anonymous source.

          In short, go soak your head.

      2. @ Richard,
        i know target killing happen. usually it’s not like that – usually it’s more covert nothing like what we see here. if they really wanted them dead from the get go – there’s lots of better solutions to use then what happened that are being used. you don’t come with an armada of vehicles and surround the house if you want somebody dead without him knowing you are coming – there we’re bulldozers over there! to me it actually looks just about a normal arrest – and SWAT did everything by the book under the circumstances.
        and what’s so unbelievable about them opening fire? they killed 3 teens – is it that so far fetched?!
        and again i ask. if they wanted the entire cell dead and to quite everyone so no one would know the truth – why was the head of the cell arrested and not killed?

          1. @ Mary,
            Israel knew almost from the get go who did it. they’ve also arrested the terror cell leader a few weeks ago – which led eventually to them – he confessed to the all thing by the way.
            they also went under the radar the exact same day and their family didn’t know where they were up until now. during the investigation the shin bet exposed a network that protected them – the last one to be arrested pointed them to the house they were hiding in.
            i bet there’s much more – they were incarcerated before – so all personal information was already known (finger prints etc)
            then there’s the tape and and car they left behind.
            and none of that matters if you shoot at SWAT team trying to arrest you – as i mentioned before – usually in target killing you don’t surround and then call the suspects out – so by firing at them there was going to be only one outcome at the end.
            you are right that under law they are ‘suspects’ but let’s not kid ourselves as to think that they aren’t the real killers.


          2. @ shay:

            none of that matters if you shoot

            There is absolutely no proof that they shot at anyone. Nor any proof that the murderers called to them. Can you prove this claim? Again, I’d love to see the IDF videotape. If they didn’t make one it proves what their original intent was.

            As for whether they’re the real killers, again you can’t make such a claim because your country refused to arrest and prove them guilty. So you only get to call them “alleged.” You’ve lost the moral right to claim anything about them since you murdered them.

  16. “It is completely unacceptable to publish claims unsubstantiated.”

    Is it, Richard? The kindly substantiate the existence of your “source” and his claims.

    1. My source’s reports have been substantiated repeatedly by subsequent events. He’s a confidential source hence I don’t reveal information about him without betraying him & losing him as a source. That may not upset you, but it would me. So no thank you. In case you were wondering I don’t write this blog for you neither do I have anything to prove to you.

      I have offered slightly more background information about him in previous posts, which you “re welcome to research & explore.

  17. @ Richard,
    first of all it says so in the Haaretz article i’ve linked.
    they even wrote they fired on the walls in order to make them come out – just has i said without even reading it when i wrote the comment (sometimes you skip a few steps like the throwing stones and flashbangs if you have prior intel that the suspects are armed and dangerous).
    they gapped a hole in the building after no one came out- meaning, if this was a hit they would have gone stealthily, gaping a hole meaning two things: 1. there was no intention of sending soldiers (swat) inside to search for them bcz it is dangerous. 2. they had to surround the building prior of doing that – and if there’s a bulldozer there’s an armada of vehicles – everyone knows you are there.
    the article also states that there were other arrests – usually when going on a hit (not an arrest) there are no other military activities in the area. but multiple arrests are very common.
    about footage – you know that even if there were footage they wouldn’t be HD quality but rather helmet mounted camera that would give anyone who doesn’t believe the israeli security forces before hand a chance to say that you see nothing, and it doesn’t prove anything and that they were rigged and edited – seen a few of this incidents. there’s some footage available in the media and sound bites of the actual COM.

    @ Mary and Richard, you are right – although in many israeli eyes this result (them being dead) is preferred since they wouldn’t be released in a few years in some 1 soldier for 1000 prisoners swap, the right way was to arrest them.
    but sometimes reality hits and we should face it. i truly believe, with all my experience as an officer in one of the infantry units this was no target killing – but rather an attempt to arrest if all went smoothly and they had surrendered.
    btw, the Fogel family murders were arrested as well – a similar heinous crime. why weren’t they executes as you claim it to be our response in this situations?

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