45 thoughts on “David Grossman on Israeli Attack Against Iran: ‘It Would Destroy Chance of Peace for Generations’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Re: the video. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does not have control over the Military, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei does. I hope this mistake will someday be understood.

    It looks as though even David Grossman can come under the influence of propaganda. But a wise man always chooses a path leading to peace, although the cost may be high.

    ” “Israel,” said Grossman, “is a deeply traumatized community that finds it very difficult to separate between real dangers and echoes of past traumas, and sometimes I think our prime minister fires himself up in mixing these real dangers with those echoes from the past.” …”

    Symptoms of Psychotic Delusions?

    “…the United States, with all due respect, is just another superpower like Rome…”

    While Rome burned it was relatively isolated. We now live in a world not isolated, but interconnected in so many ways.

    1. RE:“Israel,” said Grossman, “is a deeply traumatized community that finds it very difficult to separate between real dangers and echoes of past traumas, and sometimes I think our prime minister fires himself up in mixing these real dangers with those echoes from the past.”
      Symptoms of Psychotic Delusions? ~ david trimmel

      SEE: Israel’s Defense Chief OK’s Hundreds of Israeli Deaths, By Ira Chernus, CommonDreams.org, 11/11/11

      (excerpt). . . An essential motive of Zionism from its beginning was a fierce desire to end the centuries of Jewish weakness, to show the world that Jews would no longer be pushed around, that they’d fight back and prove themselves tougher than their enemies. There was more to Zionism than that. But the “pride through strength” piece came to dominate the whole project. Hence the massive Israeli military machine with its nuclear arsenal.
      But you can’t prove that you’re stronger than your enemies unless you’ve also got enemies — or at least believe you’ve got enemies — to fight against. So there has to be a myth of Israel’s insecurity, fueled by an image of vicious anti-semites lurking somewhere out there, for Zionism to work. Since the 1979 Iranian revolution, Iran has gradually risen to the top of Israel oh-so-necessary enemies list. Iranophobia is rampant in Israel, as one Israeli scholar writes, because “Israel needs an existential threat.”
      Anyone who has grown up in Israel, or in the U.S. Jewish community (as I did), and paid attention knows all this…

      ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/11/11-2
      ALSO SEE – Iranophobia: The Panic of the Hegemons, by Ira Chernus, Tikkun Magazine, November/December 2010
      LINK – http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/iranophobia-the-panic-of-the-hegemons-3

  2. Israel is not a large country surrounded by natural barriers. Israel is a very, very small country surrounded by hostile neighbors. Every inch of Israel can now be targeted for rocket attack and Hezbollah now appears to be the greatest conventional threat that Israel has ever faced.

    A robust, aggressive defense appears to be Israel’s only option for the foreseeable future.

    Sticking our heads in the sand isn’t the answer.

    1. Israel is a country surrounded by neighbors whom it has often done its best to anger, provoke & attack. If it faces hostility it is often of it’s own making. Israel does not engage in “defense.”. It’s only mode is offense, even in defense.

      1. Indeed. Israel is a violent country.

        Its aggression has pushed its peace loving, enlightened neighbours into defending themselves. So much, that Israel’s aggressive decision to accept the UN partition plan in 1947′ forced 6 armies to drive the Jews into the sea. They failed, and now many dubious bloggers have a hobby to keep them occupied during the day.

        1. Wow, you’re a new one around here. Your recycled hasbara crap has been debunked hundreds of times, also by major Israeli historians.
          And don’t waste your time trying to convince us. We’re far too educated on the subjetc 😀 and you’ve already shown us with your Olmert Peace Plan and your deliberate manipulation of Sa’eb Erekat’s words that you’re a plain liar.

        2. Israel didn’t “accept” the Partition Plan. In fact it conquered significant territory that was not assigned to it in the Plan. Also, it knew that declaring a state before any agreement had been reached w the other side would cause war, which it did.

          1. Once the Arabs have decided on an alternate partition plan, one that partitions Jews into the Mediterranean, the Yishuv thought it prudent to disagree with the gesture, being as many Jews lack the ability to remain submerged underwater for extended periods of time.

            Certainly, colonialism at its worst!

        3. Yes, let’s just ignore the Balfour Declaration that makes it dispositive that the new entrant into the land was the Israeli faction, one that didn’t exist in any majority beforehand. Thus, ANY partition plan of land that wasn’t Israel’s in the first place is a whole benefit to Israel and a forceful detriment to the indigenous people.

          The Palestinians had zero obligation to accept the forceful usurpation of land they lived on for 2000 years. And even though the Balfour Declaration declares that the rights of the indigenous Palestinians are to be protected, the declaration is nothing but an announcement of a colony.

          I will leave out who the co-signatory to that declaration was (big banking family, has its name all over Israel) so as to avoid anyone labeling me unjustly as a conspiracy theorist (equipped exclusively with provable facts btw lol)

          1. “The Palestinians had zero obligation to accept the forceful usurpation of land they lived on for 2000 years.”

            It is exactly this rejectionist, all-or-nothing attitude that got that Palestinians where they are today: A fragmented, stateless society with many of the Palestinians still living as second class citizens in squalor in countries that use them for political gain. Your way of thinking is anachronistic and a thing of the past. Most Palestinians realize today that prosperity lies in state-building and compromise, rather than blind, self-destructive rage directed at Zionists at Jews.

            Let’s talk shop and make peace. Not out of love, but because it’s the only pragmatic solution.

          2. I would say that what got Palestinians to where they are today are imperialistic hegemonic powers that have exploited the people and the land for centuries.

            The Palestinians were Jews before the crusades and Ottoman conquests.

          3. Also, don’t take my stance as an absolutist one. No one is saying that to correct a wrong in 1948, another one should be wholly committed. Indeed, what I am asking for here is that peace be made so that all wrongs be STOPPED once and for all.

          4. “what I am asking for here is that peace be made so that all wrongs be STOPPED once and for all.”

            I can agree with that.

  3. to understand the cover you have to know the cloth. so how much of Netanyahu’s (and Barak’s) bluster is self delusional aggradizement, the arsonist posing as the firefighter first on the scene to save the day.

  4. As to Grossman: Does he ever (or always) denounce the Israel settlement program as contrary to international law and a human-rights violation (and abomination)? This is the first test — in my view — of human decency w.r.t. I/P. The first “baby steps”.

    After that, the “second baby step” (maybe not so easy inside Israel!) is to CALL FOR REMOVAL OF SETTLERS, call for DISMANTLEMENT OF WALL, call for ending of SIEGE OF GAZA.

    Both these steps are personal, not political. The third step is to join other people in demonstrations, political parties, etc.

    I don’t see that it makes sense to call anyone a “conscience” unless he does at least the first baby step, and better, both baby steps.

    BTW: The notably and enormously praiseworthy Jews who joined MLK in the American South in the 1960s faced down the local society and risked their lives. I hope and trust that facing down the settler regime in Israel is not that bad — but let me know (and let the world know)!

    1. So in order to be humanly decent, Israelis (including David Grossman) must conform to a set of 3 criteria that you set in place.

      Are those standards in place for Israelis only, or for Jews in general?

      And what of us Israelis who fall short of your yardstick? I wonder where we fall on your humanity scale?

  5. ““chemical and biological weapons,”

    I don’t know if Iran has them or not, but chemical weapons, at least, are no more dangerous pound for pound than conventional explosives or so I’ve read. link They are banned and that’s good (I always approve when one particular method of inflicting horrible death on human beings is outlawed) but a missile with a chemical warhead is not a WMD. It’s a nasty thing that could kill civilians, but so is a missile with TNT packed in its nose.

    1. Iran leads the way for global disarmament of chemical weapons having suffered over a million casualties at the hands of Saddam Hussein.

      1. Why purchase 10,000 tons of VX precursor chemicals from China, then?

        And, if there’s a Chinese Advocate out there, why be silly enough to actually ship an order of this nature?

          1. See:

            And many others. There were reports in several UK newspapers in the past couple of years based on the original German intelligence work, rather than the above, which is a pressure group. I qoute it below mainly because pressure groups make the information easier to find, not because I necessarily agree with their slant. This refers to 2005, since then there’s been a bigger shipment of the actual precursor chemicals; necessarily, the equipment to handle these preceded this order and so far, it’s mostly the equipment that Chinese firms have bene sanctioned for. The precursor which the UN seeks to control is a complex organic chemical, sometimes known as “dichlor” which is not the same thing as elemental chlorine at all. The other precursor is propanol alcohol, which is too widely used to be controlled.

            Dichlor is reputed to be as toxic as strycnine even before it’s combined with the other precursor to make VX. Ie: already several times as toxic as chlorine.

            It’s always been a source of wonder to me why the Israelis worry so much about nukes and so little about nerve gas; perhaps a misplaced confidence in gas masks and atrophine injections? Quote below.

            Foreign Suppliers

            Foreign assistance has been vital to Iran’s chemical weapon effort. China, Russia and India have been Iran’s primary suppliers of chemical equipment and precursor chemicals. Companies in Germany, Israel and the United States have also been involved.

            According to the CIA, Chinese entities have been among the most active suppliers of CW-related equipment and technology. Iran has obtained precursor chemicals, glass-lined vessels and special air filtration equipment—all of which can be used in the production of chemical agents—from Chinese firms. Iran has also purchased Chinese technology that would enable it to manufacture such chemical weapon production equipment on its own.

            In many cases, these Chinese firms have been repeatedly singled out for punishment by the U.S. State Department. In May 1997, the State Department sanctioned one Hong Kong company, two Chinese companies and five Chinese individuals for “knowingly and materially contributing to Iran’s chemical weapons program.” These entities and persons were “involved in the export of dual-use chemical precursors and/or chemical production equipment and technology.” One of the Chinese companies, Jiangsu Yongli Chemicals and Technology Import and Export Corporation, reportedly helped Iran build a plant for manufacturing dual-use chemical weapon equipment. Jiangsu Yongli was sanctioned again in June 2001, reportedly for enabling the Iranians to get the facility “up and running.” One of the Chinese individuals sanctioned in May 1997 was Q.C. Chen. In a March 2005 address, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Arms Control Stephen Rademaker expressed concern that “the Chinese authorities have been unable to halt the proliferation activities of Q.C. Chen…who has repeatedly provided material support to the Iranian chemical weapons program.” Zibo Chemical Equipment Plant, one of the only firms in China capable of manufacturing large-size glass-lined chemical equipment, has been sanctioned three times since May 2002 for proliferation activities with Iran.

  6. Destroying peace for generations is exactly what Israelis have in mind, it’s exactly what they want, and here’s why…

    We are down to the endgame with the Palestinian state and the Palestinians becoming capable of suing Apartheid out of existence at the ICC – Israel is out of options and out of luck and so opts for generations of war and a 1000 yr struggle against Islam, rather than face the music

    It is in the interest of Israel, as calculated by Bibi, to involve the world in an endtimes conflagration, a 1000 yrs of AIPAC-directed war against Islam, simply because the dissolution of the Apartheid state is the only other alternative to look forward to as an Israeli

    This is Israeli cynicism at it’s worst – and it is only because they are desperate and only see the dismantling of the Apartheid state as the only other course of action

    This is Israel’s political Samson Option writ large…

    1. Yeah, those Jews, they control the world. And let’s not get started about the vast empire of Israel, spanning across 0.01% of the Middle-East.

          1. Actually, I do agree with that thesis. But, what I did was reference you to Professor Stephen Walt (Harvard) and Professor Mearsheimer’s stance that espouses the same.

            Don’t forget the use of pressure groups like ADL. Did you read the Steve Rosen publicly available court filings against his former employer, AIPAC? His legal rebuttal, was literally and in effect, “How can you fire me for being a spy when you are an ORGANIZATION OF SPIES?”

            Does AIPAC control Congress? 93% of all elected representatives across parties signed a sworn oath to a foreign country’s defense. You tell me. Actually, you know what? Ask the person who was the second in the world to ever even recognize Israel, the Shah of Iran. He made it very clear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kySR3fpa5s

            Now if you can tell me why the Shah would say that, it would be appreciated.

    2. I think that was a great picture. A couple of weeks ago, the hasbara posted a footage by MEMRI of Palestinians – I think Fatah-members – doing the same gesture during a ralley in Lebanon. It was of course supposed to ‘prove’ that Palestinians are really the new Nazis, bus as Asad Abu Khalil (The Angry Arab) pointed out: it’s an old gesture in the Middle East.
      Just as the Svastika is prior to the Nazis in South East Asia.
      I’ll definitely keep the picture for the next The-Palestinians-are-Nazis-mantra.

      @ Overlook
      The “Israeli Empire” has at least one satellite state thousands of kilometres away: the US Congress, and since last month also the new Jewish European Parliament, residing in the building of the European Parliament in Brusells. What do you think the purpose of such a European Jewish Parliament is ?
      I’ll help you: the first official trip of the leaders is to …. Israel.

      1. [… rant about Zionist world control …]
        You know, you’d expect that a country that controls the entire free world would be able to bring down the price of its cottage cheese. I guess we’re too busy ruling the world to take care of such minor issues.

        Anyway, where can I sign up for the Jewish conspiracy? I feel so left out.

        1. This is stupid mindless snark & the next time you try it you’re gone. The implication that this blog or the comment threads are anti Semitic is a huge comment rule violation. You’re on notice.

        2. Well, if you’d asked me last year I would have said Dominique-Every-Morning-I-Wake-Up-And-Ask-Myself-What-I-Can-Do-For-Israel-Strauss-Kahn (DSK) but since he’s out in the cold, I would suggest Bernard-I-Did-What-I-Did-Concerning-Libya-As-A-Frenchman-But-First-Of-All-As-A-Jew-And-For-Israel-Henry-Lévi (BHL).
          BTW, as far as I’m corcerned, “Jewish conspiracy” is antisemitic language, and I know too many great Jews to fall into your trap !! And I felt some ironic undertones in Persian Advocate’s commentary, but maybe that was too sophisticated for you to grasp ….

          1. “BTW, as far as I’m corcerned, “Jewish conspiracy” is antisemitic language”

            Well then, let us just replace the word ‘Jewish’ with ‘Zionist’ and put your politically-correct sensitives at ease. After all, accusing the Jews of world domination is anti-semitic. Accusing Zionists of the exact same thing – is “progressive”. You are a beacon of humanity, you are.

        3. Overlook, you are too extremist in your opinions and your counterargument is to exaggerate the just argument advanced here.

          Read Professor Stephen Walt and Dr. Mearsheimer’s highly acclaimed book, “The Israel Lobby”, and tell us if you can point out something that the John F. Kennedy Professor of International Relations and Diplomacy and another highly accredited professor from Univ. of Chicago Law do not know. It is quite apparent that there is a strong and undue Israeli influence in America. Most Americans still have a little vomit in their mouth from how our Congress adores someone so willing to kill Americans, Iranians and others as cannon fodder to satiate his false messianic complex and delusions of grandeur. The PM even insults our President. The PM is a foreigner and should know many Americans have actually called DHS asking to deport the terrorist from our country.

          Oh you didn’t know? 18 USC 2339A-B make it completely illegal for the Israeli government to be providing material support and assistance to listed FTOs like Jundullah and MEK. Netanyahu should be in Gitmo.

          1. “our Congress adores someone so willing to kill Americans, Iranians and others as cannon fodder”

            Kill Americans? What’s that all about Persian?

  7. Both Israel and Iran have regimes that cannot run a non-siege peacetime economy.

    It isn’t just the military in Iran where the Ayatollahs have an override on political control: the Revolutionary Guards also “license” ie; “tax” areas of business. This not only raises revenue independently of political control, it means that some businesses are effectively controlled by the Guard and not by shareholders.

    Israel doubtless has equivalent forms of economic subversion, which a citizenry not preoccupied by the threat of war would probably sniff out and put an end to.

  8. I see no one around here picked up on the racist element of the Leslie Stahl interview of Dagan during which she makes allusion to Dagan’s incredible appetite for eating Arabs for breakfast or his ability at separating an Arab from his head. Talk about dehumanizing Muslims! It appears that Dagan’s prolific assassination of Arabs and Iranians turns her on, cause she behaved like a giddy schoolgirl even referring to him as Superman and the killing sprees during his time as Mossad Chief as “daring AND exquisitely executed”.

    Gee, who would have thought that the gratuituous murder of Arabs and Iranians would be glorified on 60 Minutes and that the executioner and his “glory days” would be the object of Stahl’s enthrallment.

    This is how low our media has sunk under the Z-influence.

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