Today, Israeli police released the suspect in the price tag attacks on Jerusalem’s Peace Now office to house arrest. As soon as he got home, he fired up his computer and began sending e mail blast death threats to every Peace Now activist he knew. What’s even more astonishing is that he sent these emails in his own name using his personal e mail address, which allowed every recipient to identify him. This despite the fact that his father, who works for the Shin Bet, managed to get a gag order restricing publication of his name. More on Mom and Dad below.
Though I’ve been desperately seeking to expose this person’s identity for weeks to no avail (the court placed under gag any information about the suspect in order to protect his father, a Shin Bet officer), once he reoffended it seems everyone who knew his name lost patience and a number of victims exposed him. He is Dor Oved, age 18, whose mother is a policewoman. The family lives in Mevasseret Tzion.
Here is the email threat he sent to a Peace Now activist with my translation appended:
From: : דור עובד <doroved@gmail.com>
Date: 27 נובמבר 2011 15:45:59 GMT+02:00
To:
Subject: א ז”לאני יהרוג אותך הסוף קרב
“Subject: E. RIP
I will kill you the end is near”
UPDATE: With the help of some good old-fashioned Israeli gum-shoeing, a source has helped me identify the parents names as well. They are Shachar and Aliza Oved. As I mentioned above, he works as a mid-level Shin Bet official and she as a police officer. It is illegal to identify by name an Israeli intelligence agent inside Israel. Thank God we follow different laws here. Because Shachar Oved threatened the assembled press and photographers in court if they did so, and because his son is a menace to society and democratic values, I think it’s appropriate to identify the parents in this case. I should mention that my source discovered their names through public documents which I’m not disclosing since they will reveal the family’s home address.
UPDATE I: I’ve been going back and forth regarding online footprints for Oved since there are a number of possible suspects sharing the same name possessing right wing views. One of my Twitter followers suggested this Dor Oved as a possibility. The fact that it seems the Facebook profile for this D.O. was removed, plus in the blurry image the guy is pointing a gun at the camera, with a possible IDF tatoo on his arm, and some stridently right-wing material in his Info page, lead me to rank him as our man. The blurred images of Oved in this Nana video seem to offer a distinct resemblance to this individual, who appears short and stocky. Another Israeli I consulted notes that in this FB profile says he attended Harel High School in Mevasseret.
A Rotter member has identified another Facebook profile which Dor Oved is explicitly using now (though not in his name). But it appears to be one he created in the past few hours or day at most. I believe he deleted the one above because it had his picture and lots of personally identifying information and is now using the one linked in this paragraph.
The family’s defenders say the parents were distraught at his arrest and the acts he confessed to. If so, they did an awfully lousy job of monitoring him on his return home. Not to mention, where did the boy’s hate come from originally? Most children don’t develop their hatreds on their own. They’re usually nurtured in the bosom of family. And with a police-intelligence officer parents there would be plenty of it swirling around that household.
I should warn the police, the suspect and his family that if he reoffends and threatens anyone else I’ll publish his home address and phone number here. There may be some victims who would like to respond to him in kind. I have a very firm rule against such personal invasion of privacy. But in this case, his second round of criminality and invasion of the personal lives and privacy of Peace Now activists more than merits such a possible response. As an Israeli journalist responded to me when I called Oved “an idiot,” saying: “you’re insulting the idiots of the world.” That about sizes it up right.
I am seeking a photograph of Oved and any further definitive information about him and his parents.
The suspect, who allegedly confessed to the bomb threat attacks while in custody, was naturally rearrested for his new offenses. The only person I feel sorry for here beyond the victims is the defense lawyer who has a fool for a client. But I suppose the dumber one’s client the more trouble he’ll get in, which keeps you fully employed.
Besides this miscreant’s evil deeds. an independent settler activist has stalked Peace Now’s primary settlement researcher, Hagit Ofran, by vandalizing her home and spray painting price tag death threats on her apartment hallway walls. All of this comes on the heels of one of the gravest legislative onslaughts against Israeli democracy in decades. Knesset political extremists have enacted legislation criminalizing public references to BDS, passed first reading of a bill that would levy fines up to $500,000 for libel or defamation and remove the need for a plaintiff to prove damages, proposed a bill that would virtually prohibit foreign government support for human rights NGOs, proposed a bill to explicitly declare Israel a Jewish state and presumably penalize those who hold different views.
Not to mention an entirely credible series of reports that Israel has been on the verge of launching a full scale assault on Iran’s nuclear facilities.
All in all, I’d say Israeli democracy is at the lowest ebb I’ve seen in all the years I’ve been following the Israel-Arab conflict (going back to 1967). Lest anyone make the mistake of believing that Israeli democracy is somehow independent of Israel itself, if Israel’s values of freedom, justice and human rights die, then Israel will be dead in all but name. It will remain as a corpse into which the far right can breathe its noxious fumes of hate, land theft and racism, thereby creating a new Golem. We shall call this Golem, this Jewish monster, not Israel, but rather Judea, as in “in blood and fire Judea fell, and in blood and fire it shall arise.”
A final word of thanks to everyone in Israel and other places who contributed to the research that connected all the dots of this story. Between peace activists in Israel, Twitter and Facebook followers from Israel to Chicago, I could never have put this story together without you. It’s a tribute to our interconnectedness via social networking sites that this happened. Consider yourself good citizens of the world, making it a better place, raising hell, comforting the afficted and afflicting the comfortable.
Don’t forget to click on that Paypal button in the sidebar if these stories are important to you.
That should be “stand behind.”
Dispersion could be a survival choice for the Jews. It may be that Jews did not concentrate back in the “homeland” precisely in order to survive as a people. It may also account for the insistence of Jews on dispersion rather than returning to the “homeland” even today. I am sensitive to the sufferings of Jews historically, but ranting about it does help clarify issues and ideas.
Why is dispersion a better survival strategy than concentrating in a homeland? Would anyone attack them if they gathered in a homeland?
Was this meant ironically?
I am just thinking that dispersion is a kind of diversification of experience. It has some sense for survival of the people. A concentration of Jews in a “homeland” might make for more narrow experience, good and bad. Concentrated makes for a better target.
Would anyone attack them…? Sure. Would they attack others? Sure.
@David “The Diaspora has proven to be the best solution to racist threats, not a state.”
Oh sure, it was great solution for the Jews slaughtered by the Cossacks, in Russia and the Ukraine. And a wonderful solution for the Jews slaughtered by Crusaders throughout Europe, on their way to the Holy Land. And a simply marvellous solution for the Jews burned alive by the Inquisition. And a truly miraculous solution for the 6 million Jews exterminated by the Nazis. (Oh, sorry, I forgot! We aren’t supposed to mention them, are we? It comes under the heading of “Zionist hasbara” or something like that, doesn’t it?)
@Richard Silverstein: “The settler movement doesn’t have to endorse Oved’s actions. We know the settler movement endorses them in spirit if not in public. The settler movement is guilty of serial acts of violence against Jews & Palestinians. Acts that go as far as murder.”
You KNOW what the entire body of “settlers” is thinking, Richard? I beg your pardon – most humbly. I had no idea you were gifted with omniscience. How ever could I have had the infernal cheek to doubt your wisdom and contradict you? Perhaps you should change your name to GOD.
Well, some of us “know” that the Palestinians all – or almost all – endorse the multiple acts of terrorism and murder carried out against men, women and children – including 3 month old babies. Oh, sorry, I forgot. The Fogel Family were legitimate targets, were’t they? After all, they were “settlers.”
“Of course I know Hebrew”
Then I’m sure you know that “Dor Oved” means “Lost Generation” and is clearly a “nom de guerre.” So what gives you the right to splash the names of his supposed parents all over the internet and subject them to possible harassment, not to mention danger, if they are indeed a policewoman and a Shin Bet official.
“How have I hurt an “innocent” party unless you believe someone who confessed to phoning bomb threats to an Israeli NGO is an “innocent” act. Do you have proof that he didn’t commit the acts the police say he confessed to? ”
The innocent party referred to is, presumably, his supposed parents – if they are, indeed, his parents, which they may not be, in light of the fact that Dor Oved is probably not his real name.
And since when is the accused obliged to prove his innocence. In democracies, LIKE ISRAEL, it’s for the prosecution to prove the defendant’s guilt, not the other way round.
Actually, that reminds me of a joke. In Britain, you’re innocent until proven guilty. In Saudi Arabia, you’re innocent until proven innocent. In the anti-Israel blogosphere, you’re guilty if you’re Israeli, or a Zionist Jew, or a “settler” – or when Richard Silverstein says you’re guilty.
Sorry, typo – in Saudi Arabia, you’re guilty until proven innocent.
I srtand behind the rest of what I wrote.
Richard – if Gert can call me “dearest”, then I can call Gert “”sweetie”.
If Gert can talk down to me, I can talk down to Gert.
Gert is the one who used ad hominem insults, making snide remarks about my IQ. At least I didn’t make the obvious reply.
You struck first, he responded. You don’t make the rules here. I do. SInce you don’t accept them, you’ll be moderated till I’m confident that you understand that.
I would like to ask all commenters to stick to substance & avoid ad hominem attacks or snark.
That is a lie. I called him “sweetie” only after he called me “dearest”.
Oh, and I understand your rules perfectly. They are never applied to your supporters unless you are forced to do so to make a fake show of even-handedness. Fact – you haven’t threatened Gert with moderation, although he started it. Fact – you haven’t threatened Persian Advocate with moderation for his/her denial of the Holocaust. I, on the other hand, have NOT, in fact, violated a single one of your rules. They have.
But never mind, Dicky, moderate away. I don’t propose to waste any more time on this so-called blog. You don’t convince anyone, this is a private club for those who hate Israel. You have no influence on anyone, the only people who support you are those who, in any case, hate Israel.
I never intended to stay here long. I have obtained precisely what I wanted and will let you know when I’m ready to use it.
Bye bye, Little Dicky (pun intended)
Wow! I guess one is has to be born with wit and charm.
Yes, she’s the soul of wit & alas her time with us was short.
If anyone has any evidence that anyone violates the rules offer it including evidence that Persian Advocate denies the Holocaust. If not, you are a smearmonger & liar.
I’m not interested in food fights nor in he said-she said spats.
You asked to be banned & did everything to ensure it. Now you are.
She made such a strong and lasting impression on me. Shouldn’t we commemorate her brief time with us?
(Sometimes…I just can’t help myself!)
On November 29, 2011 at 12:18 PM PersianAdvocate wrote:
“That’s exactly how a majority of Jewish holocaust prisoners probably died: the Allies total war’ methodology blocked all of German territory to the brink of starvation, etc… AND EVERYONE IN THAT TERRITORY, INCLUDING PRISONERS. It’s like the evil has no bounds.”
I don’t know if reinventing the CAUSE of death counts as holocaust denial but PersianAdvocate is certainly challenging not only the generally accepted IDENTITY of those who caused it as well as implying that the victims of the holocaust were killed by indirect consequence instead of deliberate intent.
As you yrself said it isn’t precisely Holocaust denial. But it is objectionable and counter-historical and counter-factual. I’d prefer that all readers including Persian Advocate not advance personal theories of historical events and stick to known facts & credible sources to prove them.
I still do not understand the value of publishing the parents names and by doing so subjecting them to life thretning risks.
This is completely irresponsible jurnalistic behavior
Can you tell me what specific or general threat they’ve been subjected to? Can you tell me on what basis their son deserves to have his identity shielded as well?
It’s true that I have only been here a few times, mostly when I was linked from one of the social media sites.
My reply above has nothing to do with left-right politics (upon reading these news I went almost immediately to Hebrew news sites and lamented our lost generation- “dor oved”, albeit with Alef), I am a leftist, through and through.
It has everything to do with this new brand of racism, this notion that in this PC world, racism can be somehow okay if it’s directed at those who are regarded as “strong”.
I am not a Turkic Khazar and have no knowledge of such lineage in my family’s history (I don’t think anyone has such knowledge)- but even that is irrelevant, as my genetics are enough to inform me that I am not a supposedly “pure Jew”, and the implication that Ashkenazi Jews are any less worthy of the mantle of Judaism is racist, notwithstanding the Khazar conspiracy theory.
Even were all Ashkenazi Jews the progeny of Khazar converts, Mony’s view is anti-Torah, as the Torah explicitly states repeatedly that the Convert and genetic Jew are one and the same in the eyes of God (כי גרים היתם בארץ מצרים, etc.).
Let’s agree to stop debating about Moni Yakim’s theories about race and genetics and Jewish history, OK?
the gmail address leading to this facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003235262544&sk=wall
Thank you Richard for you expressing our voice, we who are under a fascist regime gradually restricting our freedom and the voice of our brothers the Palestinians that are oppressed under apartheid and occupation.
The first time I ever heard the term “bomb” or “terrorist” or “suicide” was from an American Jew from a reformed family in my American Kindergarten after I told him I was Iranian by heritage. I didn’t know what those words were. Most Iranians do not really know anything about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nor do we want any part of it.
But, this experience makes me realize that the indoctrination of Jewish youth regarding Israel’s outstanding long-term policies of land theft and colonialism does not only start at a young age, but also the narrative/fiction of its righteousness as well. It’s likely this individual is fanatic, but not out of his mind: he is adhering well to what he’s been taught.
And better yet, his mom is in the Shin Bet, so he can put that fanaticism to some use ! Win-win!
כל הכבוד ”תיקון עולם” זה תמצית היות האדם בן אדם ויהודי
בחורבן הציונות הכוזרואשכנזית ננוחם
One needs oft beware of his friends more than his enemies.
I know not whether you know Hebrew, Richard, so for everyone’s benefit I will translate:
Mony Yakim the antizionist says:
Kudos, Tikun Olam, this is the essence of being human and Jewish.
Let us be consoled by the destruction of Khazar-Ashkenazi Zionism.
—
Silverstein must be a Sephardic name to Mony, or else you alone have transcended your Asiatic Khazar roots by betraying the Khazar khaganate, thus becoming a true, pure Jew.
Of course I know Hebrew. Clearly you’ve not spent a single day here reading this blog or you would know that. I don’t agree with many comments published here including Moni Yakim’s. I probably don’t agree with your views either, but I publish them as long as they don’t violate the comment rules.
Or when you tell the truth and it’s not covinient for Richard.
Jonds — you haven’t adequately responded to Richard as of this posting. Refute his points if you can.
So now you have appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner. They fellow has not been convicted of anything by a court. Certainly not his parents. You believe in collective guilt? You quote the police and saying they have identified him. You never believe the police or any other official Israeli body when the Arabs make complaints against them about abuse. How come you suddenly believe them now?
The police say he confessed to his crimes. The video shows him painting anti Arab graffiti in an Israeli Palestinian village. His FB profile shows him pointing a gun at the camera. This guy’s hard core & yet you defend him. Tell’s us something about you doesn’t it?
As for the police, I don’t believe they really want to solve this case. But they have to because he threatened repeatedly JEWS, and one’s with a prominent public stature. So they had no choice. I doubt he’ll serve any real time or be sentenced for anything serious. That’s the way of the world for Jewish terrorists & wannabes.
I see one of his recipients is “The Truth about Israel’s Defensive Actions Against the Flotilla” so I guess he has me in his sights too. How sad that at such a young age he is already filled with such hatred.
There r many Dor Oved in Israel. For those who know facebook this looks like a typical fake profile. the mail is probably fake as well. even a teenager is not that fool to use his real name, unless he’s really mentally ill.
as for “a very firm rule against such personal invasion of privacy” – since you reveal here the name of the guy and the small town he’s living in – you dont need to be a P.D in order to find his adress and phone no. There is a possibility that you’ve heart an innocent family.
You are starting to loose your credibility in Israel, so please check you sources again cause a facebook profile with a John Doe name is not a reliable source
How have I hurt an “innocent” party unless you believe someone who confessed to phoning bomb threats to an Israeli NGO is an “innocent” act. Do you have proof that he didn’t commit the acts the police say he confessed to? As for losing confidence, I think we’ve lost confidence in you & yr credibility is just above zero, if that.
Please read again what he wrote. Your obsession to be right all the time (even if yr not) makes yr credibility just above zero. oh, and to get the name of the criminal from an Israeli reporter is not a journalist work and of course it’s not סקופ.
I didn’t get the name from an Israeli journalist. I got the name indirectly from one of those to whom he sent his e mail. If it’s not a scoop can you tell me why I’m the only person in the world Israelis can read who can tell them the name of the suspect?
Snark is not permissible here. If you have something substantive to say about the issues you may do so. You will now be moderated & If you persist in snark I’ll ban you.
You are the only one who wrote it in the world because you are the only one outside of Israel who is intrested in these matters. basher.
1. Excellent job. Serves them right for another completely unnecessary gag order.
2. A minor correction: ~80,000$ and not 500,000$ for libel without proof. Not that the consequences are any different.
Rain: There are only a few lone voices out there, and hardly any that are heard in the mainstream press.
Give me a break. There are dozens of articles about it in the mainstream (and right wing) press. Here are some quick examples:
Rabbis slam ‘price tag’ activities
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4124263,00.html
Israeli settlers’ council condemns ‘marginal group’ behind vandalism at IDF base
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-settlers-council-condemns-marginal-group-behind-vandalism-at-idf-base-1.383089
Rabbis: ‘Price tag’ contradicts Torah
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4133493,00.html
Senseless Jewish thugs
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4130858,00.html
הרב דרוקמן: פעולות ‘תג מחיר’ הן אנטי יהודיות
http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/226746
And this…
Israel – Rabbi: Kahane Would Not Approve ‘Price Tag’
http://www.vosizneias.com/94795/2011/11/14/israel-rabbi-kahane-would-not-approve-price-tag/
And articles on my blog routinely condemn it.
You offer precisely TWO articles from settler media outlets that condemn price tag attacks & expect us to believe that means the entire settler movement denounces them? If you’d bothered reading this blog you’d find tens of articles fr far right pro settler rabbis & media outlets endorsing horrific ideas that include, but go far beyond mere price tag attacks. As far as I’m concerned, the only real voice of reason among the settler movement is Rabbi Menachem Froman & those who support him. He actually knows Palestinians personally & meets them & develops relationships with them. As for the rest of you, you’re frauds.
BTW, I didn’t hear anything fr you on the full throated endorsement Oved offered for the settler movement (“We ARE the settlers”) at his new “Kahane was right” FB profile. What’s the matter, inconvenient facts too difficult to refute?
Richard – “Rain” asked for articles from mainstream, not “settler” media which is why I didn’t bother listing them. Using google, anyone can find DOZENS of them.
Too bad you can’t deal with Settlers and Palestinians actually have decent relations unless its R’ Frohman. I know plenty of Palestinians and we get along fine.
If you can stomach it, here’s a video of Hebron settlers having a very friendly, sit-down meeting at the tent of Palestinian Sheikh Mukhtar al-Jabri near the Zif junction just North of Hebron. (Taken only 8 days ago).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VQjdj8OPz78
That’s what REAL peace will look like. You should get used to it.
PS: Oved’s an idiot. If he puts a full throated endorsement of the settler movement on his FB page, then all I need to do is distance myself from him (which every normal person has done). The American Nazi party and the government of North Korea have expressed support of OWS. Does that mean OWS needs to take out full page ads distancing themselves from the Nazis and North Koreans? Nice try.
No, that’s not what he asked for. He asked for references to right wing AND mainstream media & you provided only 2 fr right wing media. He also claimed that the Israeli right wing generally supports price tag & violent acts. So you should be able to provide sources for right wing media that denounce violence. But alas you could only find 2. And one of those had a remarkable headline claiming Meir Kahane would denounce price tag attacks, when in fact he practically invented the concept & his grandson has taken the practice to a whole new level.
You “know” plenty of Palestinians? I’ll bet you do. I’ll bet they’re delighted that you & yr settler friends are stealing their land, siccing the dogs on them, & generally terrorizing them morning noon & night. I’ll even bet some of yr best friends are Palestinian. Isn’t that true?
Real peace? You wouldn’t know real peace if it bit you in the ass. Real peace will remove you from your illegally stolen land & send you back where you belong, inside the Green Line. If you think every normal person has distanced himself fr Oved you haven’t been reading one of Israel’s most popular web portals, Rotter, in which Oved is finding lots of supporters. Some of them are prob. even friends of yours.
Don’t confuse issues & wander off topic. North Korea & Nazis have nothing to do with OWS. However, settlers make up the vast preponderance of violence thugs attacking Israeli Jews & Palestinians. So therefore if yet another thug like Oved takes up the cause, you’d have to prove to us that the vast number of settlers don’t support him. I’d like to see denunciations of the Tuba Zingariyya mosque burning, burning of mosques by Yizhar residents, the firing of a Qassam by a Yizhar yeshiva student at a nearby village, plus the Peace Now attacks. Can you show us rabbinical groups & far right media which denounced any of this mayhem? Or the attacks at Anatot? Any opponents of that at Arutz 7 or Makor Rishon? No?
Doing Israel and settlers bashing contest with yourself?
Jameel does what settler zionist types do best: try and diminish whatever the other side claims.
In the mean time he links to ‘The Muqata’ (all about Eretz Yisrael’…
He IS The Muqata, all settler all the time. Or am I confusing him with Arutz 7?
Jameel does what settler zionist types do best: try and diminish whatever the other side claims.
Replace “settler zionist” with the word “jews” and your statement is even more convincing.
The ultimate doomsday weapon, eh Jameel? “Zionist is just code for Jews”. Following that logic I’m supposed to hold criminals like you a hand above their heads on the basis that they’re Jewish. You may be Jewish but you don’t represent all of Jewry. If you did you’d have given a lot of people a reason to become antisemitic. Your lot are Israel’s worst enemies, shame Israel’s succesive governments don’t seem to realise that…
If you insist on the ‘right’ to live wherever you want then extend that right to others too or simply declare yourself a racist and be done with it.
Anf how does it feel to revel at seeing explosions in another country (Iran)? You’re an imbecile, in short.
“Settler Zionist” and “Jew” are not synonyms except in the language of anti Semites and Israeli nationalist extremists like you. They are 2 distinct categories. Do not confuse them.
Oved may have offered a “full-throated endorsement for the settler movement” but there was no such “full-throated endorsement” from the settler movement (IS there such a body as “the settler movement”, BTW?) of Oved, was there? It’s not quite the same thing, is it?
Dearest:
“IS there such a body as “the settler movement”, BTW?”
Maybe you should google these thngs before wasting people’s time here?
In case you’re too inept to do that, the short answer is: “there certainly is such a movement and it’s increasingly having a stranglehold over Israeli politics”. The idea that near half a million people who see themselves (and where they dwell) under threat would somehow NOT politicise is patently absurd. Considering that so many of them believe to be on a clear mission propels them even more into an actual movement. And one that’s very actively supported by the more idiotic parts of the American Conservative movement (see e.g. Amos Schocken’s recent article in Ha’aretz: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/the-necessary-elimination-of-israeli-democracy-1.397625).
@Gert
Sweetie:
I notice that you conveniently (conveniently for you, that is) choose to ignore my MAIN comment i.e. that the so-called “settler movement” has NOT endorsed Dor Oved’s actions.
As to the very existence of “the settler movement”, the point I was trying to make was that, while there are, of course, various organised movements of “settlers”, it is ridiculous to lump all the “settlers” into one monolithic group. Possibly these subtle nuances escaped you, sweetie. I trust I have now made myself clear – or do they speak something other than English in Yorkshire?
“The idea that near half a million people who see themselves (and where they dwell) under threat would somehow NOT politicise is patently absurd.”
You mean that if you were in their place, that is what you would do.
Gert, sweetie, the fact that YOU find an idea inconceivable does not make that idea impossible or absurd. Most people would find absurd – nay, inconceivable – that a people scattered and exiled for 2000 years could return to their homeland and rebuild it and found a modern state, yet that’s what the Jewish People has done. Clear enough for you, sweetie?
Nobody is “sweetie” here unless you’re commenting on your son or daughter’s comment. Clear? No talking down to people. Do it again & you’ll be moderated. I don’t consider that sort of thing cute. So knock it off.
The settler movement doesn’t have to endorse Oved’s actions. We know the settler movement endorses them in spirit if not in public. The settler movement is guilty of serial acts of violence against Jews & Palestinians. Acts that go as far as murder.
When we talk about settlers and violence I’m afraid there are almost synonyms. There are honorable, peaceable settlers & a few post here like Myron Joshua. But even he would acknowledge the capacity for violence of the movement as a whole.
Jews were never “exiled” from Palestine or Israel. Re-read your history. The Jewish People have NOT built a modern state. Israelis have. And some of those Israelis building that modern state are–horror of horrors!–not Jews. There’s a difference bet. Jews & Israelis. Some Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israelis, nor have all returned to “their homeland” or built Israel.
Nikki
.” Most people would find absurd – nay, inconceivable – that a people scattered and exiled for 2000 years could return to their homeland and rebuild it and found a modern state, yet that’s what the Jewish People has done.”
Well, Dearie, that is what one segment of the Jewish people did, not the Jewish people, as such. Israel does not speak for Judaism or for Jews everywhere. If it claims to be the haven of last resort (the marketing of Israel), it even has this wrong: The Diaspora has proven to be the best solution to racist threats, not a state.
“exiled for two thousand years”???
By whom? And why? These people were not much constrained as they managed to get all over the Old World and into the New one as well. Why did it take 2000 years to get back “home”. Surely, a great many would have wanted to live on the soil of the land given to them by a deity even without sovereignty. But, the immigration was pretty slow for 2000 years. Why? (Personally, I think that the Jews knew that dispersion was the best safeguard. Just my own cranky theory.)
Thanks, Dearie, for providing me with the opportunity to air my strange thinking.
You allude to the fact that Jews actually were not exiled from Israel by the Romans and that Jews have lived in Israel continuously for thousands of years, though not a very sizable number from the age of the Romans till the Zionist era began. But they were there.
>>Not to mention an entirely credible series of reports that Israel has been on the verge of launching a full scale assault on Iran’s nuclear facilities.
I think the information you posted shows Israel was on the verge of an attack on Iran, which probably would be more than an accurate pinpointed one on their nuclear facilities. The initiators are pretending such an limited ‘surgical’
attack is a real possibility, but if it was, they probably would have carried it out already. What they are planning seems much bigger.
From looking at the facebook page you published, it seems that this guy is a soldier enlisted in Aug09 (עד מתי אוג’ 09)
If he’s really 18 as you published, that doesn’t make sense does it ?
He’s not 18, he’s 21. So he’s likely already completed IDF service since that begins around 18.
I think in an earlier post before I knew his real identity & age I might’ve speculated that he was around 18 (though I can’t recall clearly).
At the beginning of this post you said “He is Dor Oved, age 18, whose mother is a policewoman. The family lives in Mevasseret Tzion.”
And Just FYI he’s neither 18 nor 21. He will be 20 in 20 days.
Since he was arrested and held by the Police and not by Military police, it makes one wonder if he even serves.
Thanks, I shared
there is a good chance this is his address:
מרון 19 מבשרת ציון
or
מירון 19 מבשרת ציון
see if it correlates with any policewomen \ gSS-men.
He’s not a settler. He’s a dysfunctional vandal. Its unfortunate you chose to paint him…and another “independent settler activist” as representatives of the settler movement — who overwhelmingly despise acts of violence and vandalism.
Oh Lord. He doesn’t live in a settlement but he has the settler ideology in his heart. Settlers “overwhelmingly despise acts of violence” except the hundreds if not thousands who don’t & the tens of thousands who wouldn’t engage in violence themselves but who approve of certain acts of violence & intimidation when it “defends” the Jewish nation.
Settlers “overwhelmingly despise acts of violence” except the hundreds if not thousands who don’t & the tens of thousands who wouldn’t engage in violence themselves but who approve of certain acts of violence & intimidation when it “defends” the Jewish nation.
Impressive statistics! I’m sure you have them from a very reliable source.
Its also impressive how averse you are to embrace the face that the vast majority of settlers ARE against this sort of violence. So much better to keep spreading the frothing at the mouth image. Why let facts get in the way of a diatribe?
BTW, in Oved’s current Facebook profile he explicitly embraces the settler movement & Meir Kahane. Not too many followers of them amongst the settlers, are there? In places like Tapuach, Yithar, Shvut Rahel, Itamar, etc. They’re all good little Jewish boys & girls who’re simply misunderstood. They don’t hate Ay-rabs or peacenik Israeli Jews, do they? They love ’em to bits.
The trouble is that using the term settlers to refer to the extreme right wing and at the same time using the term to refer to anyone living over the green line is really problematic. There are many shades of opinion there, and the hard core right wing willing to commit acts of terror and hatred both inside the occupied territories and inside israel is still a minority.
Maybe it’s a convenient way to consider things from outside Israel, but from inside Israeli it’s really self-defeating. If those on the right of the map consider all those on the left to be radical self-hating jews, and those on the left consider all those living over the green line to be right-wing fanatics, the chance of finding a solution in this country is zero.
There are many living over the green line who abhor the behavior of these thugs. The trouble is that those who represent them, for example the religious zionist leadership, are not seen or heard speaking out on this issue. There are only a few lone voices out there, and hardly any that are heard in the mainstream press.
“hardly any” heard from, says Rain. Isn’t this silence to be construed as consent. Isn’t this the same consent that the Labor government provided the first settlement? The silence of the settlers who are opposed to violence is most eloquent: They don’t feel strongly enough to confront the maniac right wing. So be it, but don’t tell me how the settler right wing is a “minority” because it is then a protected and controlling minority and that is the kiss of death for democracy anywhere.
@Jameel.
Good to know settlers “overwhelmingly despise acts of violence and vandalism.” Just as Palestinians overwhelmingly despise acts of violence and vandalism. The difference is that Palestinians are living legally on their own land, while settlers, violent or not, are living illegally on stolen land, in violation of international law.
Mary: Unfortunately, your assertion that “Just as Palestinians overwhelmingly despise acts of violence and vandalism” is factually incorrect, since they vast majority of them see violence and armed struggle as legitimate. The glorification of suicide bombers and civilian baby-murdering terrorists by the Palestinian people as a whole is slightly different than the settler population. Yes, you can throw “Baruch Goldstein” adoration at me, but that’s still a minority, as opposed to the Palestinian population.
The vast majority of Israeli see armed struggle against Palestinians & Palestinian rights as legitimate as well. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander I’m afraid.
The next time you insert hasbara propaganda & racist nonsense into a comment here, you’ll be moderated or banned. If you want to participate you’ll follow the comment rules just like everyone else. If you don’t, you won’t be here.
Hasbara – ha. The real propaganda is coming from you Richard. I hope you won’t lecture others when you do the same.
You wouldn’t know propaganda (excluding Israeli variety) if it jumped up & bit ya in the arse.
Jameel,
Israel positively venerates its military. Apart from Peres and Olmert it’s hard to find prominent politicians that haven’t served as a general in the AOF.
When Israel launched its murderous and totally disproportionate attack on Gaza, the approval rate was about 95 %, totally cross partisan. About a 100 times more Gazans than Israelis were killed in it.
When Gilad Shalit came home the country practically came to a standstill because of the festivities, yet you call the Palestinians for venerating their own martyrs (watch this word act like a red flag on a bull).
The goose and the gander, indeed…
I don’t know what part his parents played in Dor’s ideology and violent behavior, but it is clear that there needs to be a very clear and swift response to Dor’s, and others who do similar acts, actions. He is performing hate crimes, and is consumed by hate for those with whom he does not agree. The young man, and all the other price-taggers, need some serious education in democracy, human rights, justice, humanity, understanding. They need to meet victims of hate crimes and be brought face to face with what they have endured. I do not know what caused Dor or others who perpetrate such crimes to become such hate-mongers, but we need to quickly and steadfastly counter such hate education and ideology with a different one that emphasizes humanity.
You cannot “educate” these guys unless you have the right on your side; As Richard indicates above, Palestinians can be the victim of hate actions but, in effect, no crime is committed, as no perp is punished. So, I don’t know what, if anything, Israel can do to “correct” such behavior, especially as so much of policy and law actually encourages hate mongering…a wink and a nudge…to serve the purpose of disabusing Palestinians of any expectation or right.
When did Israel ever have values of freedom,justice and humanrights. Didn’t that all die when the Palestinians were ethnic cleansed of their homeland and not allowed to return? Since then its been all Israeli gain verses all Palestinian loss.
The left and the right are really the same . The only thing they do different is that the left do things in stages because of world opinion and the right do it openly. Political Zionism could have only materialized as a form of western style colonialism, more repugnant than the norm because there has never been a place for the natives from the start.
Maybe in 50 years ,when all the natives have been dealt with ,then Israel, like America and Australia, can feel sorry for the injustice they committed against the indigenous.
A very sad observation that strikes me as both logical and accurate, or at least as accurate as any statement about the future can be.
It’s a hugely simplified statement to say that left and right in Israel are really the same. It shows very little understanding of a complex situation here, but I guess it serves your purpose.
It also seems to me that your argument for the rights of an indigenous people does the Palestine cause a disservice. The right of the Palestinians to a homeland (and the the right of Palestinians living in Israel within 1967 borders to absolute equality) is an imperative based on 60+ years of injustice and displacement. However, basing that on the rights of an indigenous people is shaky. There are indeed figures showing that ~ 85% of the population in 1948 were Palestinian arabs. However, as far as I’m aware, there are no reliable sources showing how long that 85% had been there. One effort of the Israeli right is to show that Jews are indigenous to the area. I think it’s a rat hole for both sides that serves little in recognizing the rights of either side.
Your thinking seems very nuanced, and I wouldn’t insult it. On the other hand, such thinking can lead to pussy-footing about a serious issue that cries for solution as soon as possible more than academic exercise. You state that “There are indeed figures showing that ~ 85% of the population in 1948 were Palestinian arabs. However, as far as I’m aware, there are no reliable sources showing how long that 85% had been there.” In doing so, I detect an extrapolation, even though perhaps far from conscious, from that rotten and thoroughly discredited exemplar of faux scholarship from a while back, Joan Peters’ FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL: THE ORIGINS OF THE ARAB-JEWISH CONFLICT OVER PALESTINE, propaganda of the vilest sort that set about to disprove even the existence of Palestine and Palestinians as such. Non-people, in a sense, worthy at best of disdain and ethnic cleansing. I hope your words of reason are indeed more reflective of honest reasonableness than Hasbarat viewpoints and methodology.
Certainly not hasbara. Just a belief that the effort to prove who was where first is a pointless one that prevents rather than contributes to finding a solution. That both Palestians and Israelis exist as peoples sharing this land is a done deal. Neither side is going anywhere. Both sides have contributed to the mess.
Nevertheless, it is encumbent upon Israel in their stronger position to make positive steps towards the Palestinians. Failure to do will not only be the undoing of the Palestinian people, but the undoing of the Israeli people too.
However, in the land of the near term, this longer term vision is something the average Israel doesn’t think about 🙁
Rain — Sure it’s a “done deal” and I think you are right that the initiative has to come from Israel. But, then you conclude that the average Israeli doesn’t think about making amends or taking initiatives toward a settlement. So, wherever will initiative come from? I sense in all this “nuance” thinking about the issues, a hesitancy.
One well-intentioned guy with whom I’ve been dealing, cyberwise, is opposed to BDS for very sophisticated and nuanced reasons. Fluent with the ideas and facts, he does not support BDS. I am a bit simpler in style: Even if he is right, I must support BDS and be active now in calling Israel out. We need a narrative to remind us of the origins of the dishonesty and racism rampant in Israel. We all need to be able to point and say “this is why the government is fundamentally wrong” etc.
So, more on point, I think “indigenous” is relevant to the narrative, even if there are some fine points to the subject.
@Rain.
I suppose they didn’t keep regular population counts because they never dreamed they would have to defend themselves against claims they never existed. I guess for some people it comes down to which side shouts louder than the other about which one is more indigenous.
Let’s see if I’ve understood this correctly. To call the removal of Jews from the Gaza Strip “ethnic cleansing” is incendiary and therefore forbidden, but it’s OK to accuse Israel of “ethnic cleansing”? That isn’t “incendiary”?
Just want to be sure I’ve understand the rules of engagement here.
Nikki:
I think you haven’t understood the ‘rules of engagement’ for one little iota. Here they are:
1. Any Yehudi from Brooklyn (or elsewhere) has the ‘right’ to ‘return’ to anywhere in Palestine, with guaranteed Israeli citizenship to boot. Palestinians, including those who were born there and expelled in 1948 or 1967 do not have that right and do not have the right to citizenship.
2. Anyone challenging this sorry and deeply racist state of affairs must be a Jew hater.
That wasn’t so hard now, was it?
One anti-Zionist Jew commented that the last Zionist standing will have an IQ of 1. Perhaps it could be you?
Hint: the ‘disengagement’ from Gaza was a unilateral decision taken by Ariel Sharon. To this day no one knows what his true intentions were but one can guess: ‘reculer pour mieux sauter’ might describe it. This apart from maintaining a Jewish presence in Gaza must have cost a small fortune… Still, all paid for with US tax dollars, in all likelihood.
@Gert: Ah, I must be very slow. I’ve only just now understood another one of the rules of engagement on this blog. Anyone who fails to condemn Israel right away (even if they don’t actually express support for Israel) is a Zionist with an IQ of 1.
Do I have that correctly?
I do declare, you are as rude and unpleasant as Richard to a chance visitor who asks a civil question. Clearly you have not understand the rules of civilised debate.
Instead of engaging Gert’s arguments & responding to them or refuting them you carp about how mean he is to you. Why don’t you address substance instead of style?
Which is the “sorry and deeply racist state of affairs?” The fact that Jews are allowed to enter Israel and become citizens as a matter of law or the fact that Palestinian refugees are denied this right?
And would your remedy be to grant the refugees the right of return or to abolish Israel’s Law of Return? (Or both?) Or to expel those who have already arrived under that law? In other words, is your strategy inclusive or do you propose to substitute one form winner-takes-all for another?
And when you speak of the “last Zionist standing” having an IQ of 1, do you mean that intelligent Zionists will abandon Zionism or do you have some other strategy for reducing their numbers. (Don’t worry, you can talk freely – you’re among friends.)
It’s quite accurate in fact to call the Nakba ethnic cleansing. A nation can’t be accused of ethnically cleansing its own citizens esp. when it is decision taken by a democratically elected gov’t. Ethnic cleansing is by definition the expulsion by one ethnic group of members of another from land the latter has inhabited. Jews cannot ethnically cleanse other Jews. Not to mention that approx. 3,000 settlers were removed from Gaza, while Israel expelled nearly 1 million in 1948.
Instead of thinking about the rules of engagement you might want to spend some time reading real unbiased historical sources.
Real unbiased historic sources – ha. Like pappe? Or maybe finklelstein? Big LOL.
I don’t rely on them as sources, but they’re a helluva lot more persuasive than any source you’ve ever used.
If Israel wasn’t a democracy, people like Dor Oved, whom you generalize all rightists as, wouldn’t go to jail and would be given a free pass by the police.
People like Dor Oved murder Palestinians with frightening regularity & either aren’t punished at all or are sent to mental hospitals instead of prison. The only reason his case has been solved is that he threatened Jews. If he’d threatened Palestinians he’d still be scot free.
So is he in jail? No, and it’s unlikely he will serve any time. Clearly he’s not concerned; I guess he figures Daddy will cover his a****
He was rearrested after he sent out the death threats. I imagine he is now in jail though don’t know for sure.
Good to know they’re keeping an eye on Facebook. I guess I’d better be more careful.