The Israeli far-right and its supporters have just suffered another stinging blow in its campaign to smear Hamas as an Al-Qaeda clone (yes, Bibi had the chutzpah to use that no outrageous comparison today). During the Hamas-Fatah signing ceremony for their unity deal, Hamas’ leader had this to say about his movement’s political goals:
“We will have one authority and one decision,” Mr. Meshal said from the podium. “We need to achieve the common goal: a Palestinian state with full sovereignty on the 1967 borders with Jerusalem as the capital, no settlers, and we will not give up the right of return.”
What happened to the blood-curdling calls for the elimination of Israel? For drinking Jewish blood? Killing Jewish babies? Nowhere to be seen.
Even Ethan Bronner, who wrote this story, couldn’t bear losing an opportunity to quote his usual narischkeit about Hamas’ avowed goal of eliminating the Jewish state, when he wrote:
Hamas, the Islamist group that rejects Israel’s existence…
Bronner usually subtly changes the phrasing depending on context. Note, he couldn’t very well claim as he usually does, that Hamas wishes to destroy the Jewish state, when its chief leader has just essentially said he would accept a Palestinian state in ’67 borders. So instead, he merely claims that Hamas “rejects Israel’s existence.” Since Meshal made no statement about Israel, Bronner’s on solid ground, at least in his view. But the truth is that Hamas doesn’t follow the narrative Bronner and other Israelis have constructed for it.
Now we’ll hear from them that Meshal was slyly concealing his true beliefs in Israel’s demise and telling a world audience what it wanted to hear.
The truth is that Hamas, no matter what we might think of it and how much we dislike its political-theological agenda, is a pragmatic movement. When it perceives it has something to gain in the long-term, it has shown it can moderate its political agenda. This happened during the PA election campaign. And it’s happening now. Never before has Hamas been treated with respect by the Egyptian government. Never before has the PA shown real willingness to reconcile and hold new elections. Never before has the world been closer to declaring a Palestinian state.
This is not to say that Hamas will become a conventional Social Democratic party any time soon. Nor that we will not read conflicting statements from its leadership on these and other subjects. But the point is that Hamas, like any political movement, can change when it perceives it has something to gain. As long as the international community shows Hamas that it does have something to gain, it can expect pragmatism. But if the General Assembly refuses to recognize Palestine, or Fatah pulls a fast one, or Israel invades Gaza again, we can expect the same old rejectionist Hamas, and we’ll have only ourselves to blame for that.
[comment rule violation–NO ONE makes up fake quotations in my name, and if you put words I didn’t say in my mouth again you WILL be banned]
[comment rule violation–negating existence of Israeli or Palestinian peoples is prohibited]
Richard,
What about the 900,000 to 1,000,000 Jews who left
or were forced to leave Arab or Muslim countries (250K from Morocco alone)
What about their ROR or compensation for abandoned or confiscated assets.
Did Israel keep them in camps or assimilate them.
Again, I call for a pragmatic and realistic approach that,while respecting the Palestinians and their ROR does not cause an unbearable social upheaval in Israel.
Social justice with a little common sense.
In addition I want to state that the future for Israel and her neighbors does not lie in arguing about limited resources
but in the creation of new resources through the technical education of all her citizens to reap future economical bounties.
The economic potential of the immediate area is phenomenal,better to have half of a big cake that all of a small one.
No Jews were forced to leave Morocco. In fact, the king at the time begged Jews not to leave. And the situation was quite complicated in ARab countries. In a few they may’ve been forced to leave. In some, the Jews left because Israel planted bombs to spook the Jews into leaving. In some, Jews were afraid (for varying reasons) and left but weren’t forced to do so. In some, they left for personal reasons. The situation for Arab Jews was in no way similar to the Nakba or Holocaust as many argue.
I would not be opposed to forcing Arab governments to restore property that Arab Jews lost or compensate them for it. And certainly it would be wonderful if Arab countries became tolerant enough to welcome back their former Jewish citizens.
And I’m simply not going to get into the Jewish Arab Holocaust argument here. It’s been argued here scores of times.
There ARE limited resources in Israel-Palestine. How do you propose to create new water resources for example when there’s only a finite amt of it & Israel is stealing more than its fair share. But yes, a peace agreement would create a much bigger pie for all & I’m with you on that pt.
“How do you propose to create new water resources”
Desalination,which needs a awful lot of energy but guess who found a lot of natural gas recently.
It is very important to keep our feet on the ground and to take things step by step.
Initial confidence building between the parties is imperative.
For the Jewish population in Israel the cessation of terror
would be an extremely significant step.
What would be seen an equivalent and reciprocal confidence building step for the Palestinians?.
Desalination is not a long-term viable or cost effective method of producing potable water. It’s incredibly expensive, uses tons of energy & just not viable unless you have the means of a Saudi Arabia, which no frontline Arab state does.
One thing I haven’t seen in all this thread is a comment about Hamas recognizing Israel.
Perhaps there are thoughs who think this is obvious… I don’t know. But I did see this on a CNN report:
—–
“Hamas will refrain from any violence and … Hamas will be interested in the peace process,” Nabil Shaath said on Israel Radio.
But, he said, “I don’t think that Hamas should be asked to recognize Israel.
—
link to cnn.com
So just exactly with whom does Hamas wish to share this 1967 border… not meant to be cute, but I’m trying to figure out if Hamas isn’t yet ready to recognize Israel according to Shaath, then what do they see as the basis for a border of 1967…with what country…. a country they don’t recognize?
What is promising is that Shaath said Hamas is “interested in the peace process”. If there is real truth (teeth behind the rhetoric) and he means peace with Israel and not (only) with his fellow Fatah folk, then there is progress.
It’s track record of past doesn’t lead to an immediate “vote of confience” for Hamas’ “new leaf”. Other acts of good-wll, good intention might go a long way to garner support for their joining Fatah.
Just an added thought… or answer…
If they base this declaration of desired borders on 1967, presumably res.242… does that then mean by defacto ( accepting 242) that they recognize Israel?
De facto, yes that’s precisely right & you’ve answered yr own question. But not explicitly or as publicly as you (or I) would wish. But all that matters at this point is de facto. Explicit recognition will come down the road once both sides prove they can live with ea. other peacefully.
no. they de facto understand that Israel exists, but they do not and will not commit to anything that says that Israel’s existence is legit or that it SHOULD continue.
they continue to hold to there stated views of what SHOULD BE and what they desire to be and what it is their duty to wish and work toward…..until they definitively say otherwise.
this unstated acceptance is vaporous and it will be taken by different people to mean different things but will not commit Hamas to anything.
Of course it’s “vaporous” to you who has his own political agenda which discounts everything anyone fr. Hamas says. But isn’t it interesting that one of Israel’s most distinguished former intelligence chiefs feels profoundly differently than you?
Meshal has just committed to the words he’s expressed in this interview. You may deny or discount it, but you’d be denying the reality of what he said.
Richard, the reality of what he says isn’t particularly impressive until there are actions that prove out purported pacific intentions.
I hope that the actions will bear out the words, but I’m not rushing to be gushing over words and am not going to be brushing away tears of joy just yet.
Hamas and the PA have announced reconciliation deals before and they’ve fallen apart before, amounting to nothing.
Similarly, the words Bibi says are meaningless unless accompanied by action. Bibi hasn’t shown any real actions to back up any statements he’s made that would offer any hope of peace. I have much more faith in Hamas’ willingness to realize its words than I do in Bibi’s. Neither has been flawless in execution of their policy statements, but Hamas is FAR more faithful to them than Bibi.
Hamas is an Islamist organisation, and as such can never recognise the legitimacy of Israel. For all its ideological rigidity, it offers flexibility within its ideological framework.
They offer a Hudna, or long term truce, which is the equivalent of a de facto settlement.
It’s frustrating for atheists like me, but it’s important to understand what they’re actually saying.
But yes, Hamas already offers de facto recognition to Israel, which is all they are required to do under international law.
As the Israel/Palestine scholar Norman Finkelstein has repeatedly pointed out: Gandhi never accepted the legitimacy of Pakistan, but it was, he said, a reality he was forced to accept.
This is identical to Hamas’ position on Israel. Are we going to hold Hamas to a higher standard than Gandhi?
I find it ironic that you are linking Gandhi and Hamas. Gandhi was a pacifist and promoted his ideas and politics through non-violence. Not so Hamas.
Ghandi, I don’t think, ever promoted the destruction of a soveirgn country, and although Hamas may have amended their take on destorying Israel… it was something they did actively promote.
Hamas still believes in an armed struggle against Israel …its “Occupation”. Would Hamas call Israel ” a reality they are forced to accept- and let it exist, peacefully- if some form of peace agreement ( a big “if” I admit) between Fatah/Hamas and israel is reached, short of turning Israel into an Islamic country :>) – just a little humor.
Your point about Islam and Hamas… I’m no expert on Islam, though I do understand (I think) that the issue of Wakf (sp?) and lands that were once under Islamic rule… even if they are transfered/conquered to non-Islamic rule, still are considered lands that should be ruled under Islamic law/control. Thus, Hamas sees the land of Israel as land that may be ruled by non-Islamic power, but should be ruled by Islamic law…. If I’m wrong, certainly don’t mind being corrected.
Under what circumstances can Hamas, or any Islamic ruling power cancel the Hudna.
That’s about the most accurate statement you make in this entire comment. Indeed, you know almost nothing about Islam. When a peace agreement is negotiated it will be negotiated on the basis of politics and not religious law: not halacha nor sharia. Thank God, neither one rules (yet) in Israel or Palestine.
I disagree. I researched this specific issue for a documentary film I was working on and indeed, Wakf does pertain to items such as buidings, land and terriories. It is a Holy religious endowment / or charitable contribution that cannot be revoked.
I agree that Hamas’ claim today is political, not religious, but their ideology stems from Islam, the same way the State of Israel stems from Judaism.
You may want to take the connection to religion out of the equation, but I don’t think either side will comlpetely alienate themselves from their religious ideologies.
What are the “basis of politics?” You don’t think both sides will interject their particular “brand” of politics and ideologies?
Granted they probably won’t be swinging Korans and Chumashim around during negotiations, but they will each bring that history/ideology/culture to the table.
I’d like to think that this will be tempered with Democracy and fair negotiations, but I’m not sure if either side is ready or willing to that just yet.
I have absolutely NO interest is discussing the Wakf & regardless of how much research you claim to have done on the subject I’m certain there are Muslims here who would run rings around whatever knowledge you claim on the matter. Besides, we can talk too about Ateret Cohanim & the extremist right’s theological arguments about reviving the Temple & animal sacrifices, bringing back the High Priesthood & not giving back an inch of Bibilical Israe. What’s the point? So regardless, we’re not talking about Wakf. We’re talking about a political settlement of a political issue.
Religious ideologies are poison on both sides & will play little or no role ultimately in resolving the conflict. After a political solution the religious issues will be sorted out.
You might also be interested in this:
link to usip.org
this is your response to mine ?
—What happened to the blood-curdling calls for the elimination of Israel?—-
Not a thing has happened to those calls. they’re still made when it suits Hamas’ purposes.
It’s willing to stop firing missiles from Gaza but still has been calling for an armed uprising against Israel to be launched from the West Bank.
They say whatever suits them. Trusting them or their good intentions is reckless.
They either make manifest a pacific intent or they’re to be dealt with as still hostile and an enemy.
Wrong. As I wrote, there will be many diff. statements coming from Hamas as there come from every gov’t when it faces a major decision affecting the entire nation. But the extremism & rejectionism of Hamas is generally receding & being replaced with pragmatism. I can’t say the same for the Israeli gov’t which seems to be moving in the opposite direction.
Stuff ‘n nonsense. How would Hamas undertake an armed uprising in the West Bank & why would it believe there was any chance of such a thing happening. And what does this have to do with Israel & Meshal’s statement about 1967 borders?? Nothing, & off topic again.
This is far truer of the lying opportunist running Israel and his governing coalition and his intelligence services & military forces, than it is about Hamas. The movement has just manifested its pacifc intent by recognizing Palestine in 1967 borders. When Bibi can manifest any similar pacific intent the Messiah will be on his way.
Masshal talk about Bin Laden….
link to ynetnews.com
this is the guy Israel need to do peace with….
Off topic. If you don’t stay on topic, your future comments will be moderated.
So what?…..You have members in your Knesset Praising Terrorists like Goldstein, such as Ben-Ari. What is your point exactly?.