50 thoughts on “15 Year-Old Palestinian Boy Beaten Unconscious by Israeli Prison Guards Becomes Latest Suicide Bomber – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. The banner on this blog reads Tikkun Olam but the website’s real name is Bad News From Israel, isn’t it?

    (Seriously, if you want this deception to succeed, you need to be a little more subtle with your Israel-bashing.)

  2. Another way of looking at it, is that at the age of fifteen Harbawi was already a Hamas terrorist and that is the reason he was arrested. He probably shouldn’t have been released from prison in the first place. When Willie Horton was released on furlough and then raped a woman after knifing her fiancee, nobody claimed it was prison that made him violent. Most people understood that it was a mistake to let him out of prison in the first place. This is especially true of Hamas terrorists.

  3. Agreed amir.

    So what we should do is arrest all Pali boys and men, ages 15 and above. Then lock them up, periodically taking them out of their cages to beat them.

    We should have camps for these people – lets call them Balkan model camps for moslems, or perhaps just go with concentration camps – and surround these camps with barbed wire.

    We should have an indoctrinated force – not the regular IDF army – a politically indoctrinated force, lets call them security staff – SS in short – to guard these camps, and take actions for the security of the state of Israel. Regular IDF boys might be too lenient when dealing with these bandits.

    I applaud your vision for Israel amir.

  4. at the age of fifteen Harbawi was already a Hamas terrorist

    A rather remarkable, audacious & ignorant statement. You have absolutely no basis on which to make such a judgment other than the fact that the boy was in an Israeli prison. You don’t know why or anything else about the matter. Yet you automatically make the presumption that Israeli intelligence services must know what they’re doing & he has to be guilty. As I said–rather remarkable.

    He probably shouldn’t have been released from prison in the first place.

    I rather like American Goy’s oneupmanship proposal. I’d amend it & do something more along the lines of Pharaoh. Why don’t we just kill all newborn Palestinian children so they won’t ever grow up to be terrorists–or anything else.

  5. RS – as presumptuous as my comment was, your post was equally if not more presumptuous. We don’t even know if it’s the same Mohammed Harbawi, though the age fits. But there must be at least half a dozen Mohammed Harbawi’s in the terrorirsts village of the same age.
    American Goy’s comment is so preposterous that it’s not even worth my time. Isnt that called making a straw man argument?

  6. The defense of children international, palestine division. You have got to be kidding

    Bill: I sort of glad I don’t know you Bill & never want to. Sometimes you come across as the world’s greatest class-A asshole as in this comment. What–do you think Palestinian children don’t need defending? You think children held in prisons don’t need monitoring?

    We don’t even know if it’s the same Mohammed Harbawi

    Amir: You must know very little about Bernard Avishai. Since you don’t, I”ll tell you I trust his judgment & research capabilities more than yours or even mine. If he believes it’s the same al-Harbawi I trust him. Now, go and prove it isn’t.

    the terrorirsts village

    You once acted all huffy when I accused you of being racist. I was too tired & annoyed to go back over yr hundreds of comments to find anything especially egregious. But now you’ve saved me the trouble. This little phrase takes the cake. You ARE a despicable racist. And what IS a “terrorist village?” A village where everyone is a terrorist? Where little babies are taught to throw hand grenades & mix explosives with their mother’s milk. I find this comment repulsive. Now go and complain about how badly I’m treating you.

  7. The banner on this blog reads Tikkun Olam

    No, it actually reads “tikun olam,” but I won’t dock you points for yr inattention to spelling.

    the website’s real name is Bad News From Israel, isn’t it?

    No, it isn’t. I don’t create the news by the way. I just report it. If you have problems with the news out of Israel maybe you could suggest to your friends in the IDF or Israeli government that they provide less gruesome news.

    you need to be a little more subtle with your Israel-bashing.

    Actually, the bashing was done by the five Israeli prison guard thugs who beat a 15 yr old boy unconscious & helped turned him into a suicide bomber. Gee, I wonder what those five guys are feeling right about now? I doubt they have any sense of responsibility for this event. Beating up teenagers is part of the job responsibility I guess.

    And if they hadn’t bashed the boy then I wouldn’t be reporting the story now would I? I’d like nothing more than having nothing of this nature to report here in this blog. Unfortunately, some Israeli authorities provide all too much fodder for it.

  8. Richard;
    Thanks for uncovering this information, the significance of which is indicated by examining the nature of the several ungrateful responses submitted by the first four Israeli apologists.

    When the Israelis terrorize Palestinians, including children, they know full well that they are providing them with the motive for revenge. The Israelis need such properly motivated Palestinians to occasionally be seen resisting, i.e. attacking, the Israeli occupation and control of the Palestinian people, events which they can use as news reports to continuously reinvigorate the intensification of the occupation, the aim of which is to drive as many Palestinians as possible from Palestine.

    The behavior of this boy can be understood and explained. He was, like so many hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children, a victim of state terror, kidnapped, taken to a foreign state, imprisoned, beaten, tormented and, virtually destroyed. We must not be silent about this situation. Again, thank you.

  9. Richard Silverstein said:Amir: You must know very little about Bernard Avishai. Since you don’t, I”ll tell you I trust his judgment & research capabilities more than yours or even mine. If he believes it’s the same al-Harbawi I trust him. Now, go and prove it isn’t.

    You seem to have this backward; the burden of proof should be on the one making the accusations here. In any case, his “research capabilities’ consisted of a google search!

    And if they hadn’t bashed the boy then I wouldn’t be reporting the story now would I? I’d like nothing more than having nothing of this nature to report here in this blog. Unfortunately, some Israeli authorities provide all too much fodder for it.

    And if Hamas hadn’t given him the explosives and told him to go blow himself up you wouldn’t have a story here either. Killing people is so much more justified than beating them? Why I don’t see a comarable condemnation of Hamas on your site? And before we assume that Israel made him into a suicide bomber, how about a little background on the reason he was arrested in the first place?

  10. I believe that what had happen to him was most likely the reason why he was driven to this and I believe that is true of all suicide bombers. if you asked every one of them I believe that they would tell you a heartbreaking story of the dignity and pride that was taken away form them by someone else and feeling absolutely powerless was driven they felt to this only act in which they could take matters into there own hands. Is it right I don’t know what happened to them maybe an eye for an eye was justice. I am not God but I feel that every man and women goes through certain things in life either to make them stronger or weaker it is the ones who can go through these trials and continue to walk with their heads held high that will truely change the world. Revenge may be a way to change things but it is not always the right way.

  11. Don’t worry about the sheep, Richard, it’s one of the great propaganda triumphs of the 20th century that any comments not 100% pro-Israel are automatically anti-Semitic. People who use their minds to think and not merely repeat know that for the fallacy it is.

  12. Amir seriously – grab a WW2 book about German anti partisan operations and see the language used in official documents. Things like “bandit village”, “preventive execution”, “bandits” are mentioned repeatedly.

    In fact, if I can be so crass as to spam my blog, I have a blog post about that with actual documents from WW2 about the German occupation of the (then) Soviet Union lands and they sound surprisingly (or not too surprising come to think of it) like your statements here:
    http://americangoy.blogspot.com/2008/01/counter-insurgency-americangoy-explains.html

    If you cannot be bothered, the whole point of my post was to show people the German documentation, which was all about taking hostages, public executions, dealing with “bandits”, terrorist villages and the like, and then my statement at the end:

    If you, Americans want to stay in Israel or you, Israelis, want to stay in the West Bank and possibly reoccupy Gaza, then:

    “The stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib – electrodes in genitalia, rapes of prisoners, siccing of dogs at prisoners, mock executions, beatings, deprivation of sleep and forcing prisoners to stand in cold rooms for hours on end, this stuff is not abnormal in a counter insurgency war.

    That is the norm.

    It is a necessity.

    So, as an American, YOU need to ask yourself one question:
    ‘Do we need to occupy Iraq?’

    If you answer ‘Yes’, then you have to accept Abu Ghraib type prisons and all that entails.”

    I also have a movie for you to see amir. It is about the French counter insurgency techniques in Algeria when the Algerians revolted against being a territory of France in the 50’s and early 60’s. Again, sorry to spam my blog, but I do have a link to that movie on it:
    http://americangoy.blogspot.com/2008/01/must-see-movie.html

    The movie starts with an Algerian prisoner who just gave away his comrades position after a torture session and goes from there. This movie is rarely shown on American TV – it was showed once on American Movie Classic because Danny DeVito hailed it as his favorite movie. Made the host who interviewed Danny very uncomfortable, and he switched the topic from politics to Italian cinema and other films.

    The thing that stuck me from this movie is the French paratroop general, an expert in unconventional warfare, a true pro, telling the reporters:

    “The words of the elite force parachute general to reporters, who were asking him about the soldiers using torture and informants in an effort crush the Arab rebellion, will stay with me forever, as they sum up the dilemma of a democracy in an untenable situation: “I’ll ask you a question myself: Should France stay in Algeria? If the answer is still yes, you’ll have to accept all the necessary consequences.”.

    Seems Mr. van Creveld and myself agree. This situation is UNTENABLE for a democracy. Got that, amir?

  13. The least Amir could of done was to provide plausible proof to support his ’15 year old terrorist’ hypothesis. Real terrorists are the likes of Amir that preach hate. No justice no peace, wake up world.

  14. I will never understand why Israel and the Israeli Lobby does not understand the consequences of their brutality toward Palestinians. Unfortunatley, the consequences of their brutality falls on each and every American as well. Where did Israel and the neocons come up with the stupidity — “The Arabs only understand force”? Does anyone know?

  15. There are terrorist in the world because there is a root of war on this planet. The root of war is when humans mimic and think like animals. This happens on legalized cockfighting farms. Terrorist are caught in the world as a whole and something happened to them in their childhoods to make them do what they do. War is one step up from legalized cockfighting. The way humans treat animals is the way they treat each other. Just look at the wars in the world. If we destroy the root of war (legalized cockfighting) we will save Humanity and there would be no terrorist. PEACE.

  16. If the Palestinians really think of themselves as the Jews of Nazi Germany why don’t they treat the left-wing peace groups (such as this blog) as freedom fighters? I have never seen a public statement from a Palestinian applauding and supporting the help that such groups try to provide. There were no memorials or marches to commemorate the death of Rachel Cory, yet they fire those stupid rifles off for the death of every violent ‘martyr’.

    I want to feel empathy with the Palestinians but they make it really hard when they choose violence over peace and cooperation.

  17. I have never seen a public statement from a Palestinian applauding and supporting the help that such groups try to provide. There were no memorials or marches to commemorate the death of Rachel Cory, yet they fire those stupid rifles off for the death of every violent ‘martyr’.

    I’m sorry to be so blunt about this, but this is a HIGHLY IGNORANT statement. I doubt you have ever read a news article from a Palestinian source, if you think that you can blithely claim that “There were no memorials…”

    Here’s an incomplete listing from a routine Google search of about 15 minutes duration:

    Memorial March in Rafah, Gaza in 2003

    http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031803_memorials_for_rachel.htm

    Bethlehem Candle Memorial 2003

    http://www.bobmay.info/rachel_corrie_candle_memorial.htm

    Memorial page with links to Palestinian memorials

    http://criticalconcern.com/memorials.htm

    “The Beautiful Face of the United States”
    Tribute to Corrie from Imad Jadaa, Palestinian Ambassador to Cuba
    http://www.spectrezine.org/war/Corrie.htm

    Gaza children commemorate fourth anniversary of Rachel Corrie’s death

    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6684.shtml

    “Rachel, my mother” written by a 12 year old Gaza girl on the one year anniversary of Rachel’s death

    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2513.shtml

    Gazan branch of Union of HWC to name new cultural enter after Rachel Corrie
    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1289.shtml

    Gaza Community Mental Health Programme names “Rachel Corrie Center for Women’s Empowerment”
    http://www.gcmhp.net/File_files/rachelcorrienamed.html

    This is by no means a complete listing, and obviously, there is more to life than what shows up on Google. What’s apparent is that there have been memorials in Gaza and the West Bank for Rachel right after her death and every anniversary afterwards. There have also been buildings and programs named in her honor and even children named after her. There have also been many non-violent actions initiated by the Palestinians against the 40 year long occupation. All of them have met with violent reaction from the IDF, and a lack of coverage in the US.

    So, please, if you really do “want to feel empathy wih the Palestinians” then start expanding your sources of information. They are obviously sadly quite limited if you truly think that they did not laud Corrie for her non-violent action and courage and that Palestinians, despite 40 years of violent occupation, have not engaged in non-violent protest. Just because you haven’t heard of something, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

  18. “the terrorirsts village”

    That should say “terrorist’s village” as in the village from where the terrorist came from. There’s nothing racist about that.

    If Harbawi had been kept in prison he would be alive today. But he was released back into the hands of Hamas where they decided that it was his turn to die. They killed him on purpose. A 20 year old man who, if it wasn’t for Hamas, may have made something of himself. So they put a suicide vest on him and sent him on a path to death in order to murder Israeli civilians. This is so sickening that I get nauseous typing it. Keeping him in prison would have been the humane thing for Israel to do. Now there is this human tragedy, for both Palestinians and Israelis, and the only angle that you find interesting is that maybe this same guy, who was already arrested (he may already have on the fast track to martyrdom) may have been beaten by thuggish Israeli police/soldiers and “may have helped him turn into a suicide bomber”. No, Richard you are wrong. Thuggish police are to be found all over the world but suicide bombers can not be found all over the world. What turned Harbawi into a suicide bomber was a sickening ideology and a certain way of interperting Islam and an organization and a lot of people supporting and helping him out logisitically and otherwise. What allows this to continue, in part, is the moral confusion which has overtaken much of liberal Western society.

  19. And if Hamas hadn’t given him the explosives and told him to go blow himself up you wouldn’t have a story here either. Killing people is so much more justified than beating them?

    The beating happened first. Without the beating you likely don’t have a suicide bomber.

    Why I don’t see a comarable condemnation of Hamas on your site?

    Because you’re too lazy to actually read my blog to find it. I take it you’re either in the U.S. Army or else serving in some capacity at the Wiesbaden base. I do hope you do a better job of reading yr service manuals than you do of reading my blog.

    how about a little background on the reason he was arrested in the first place?

    I’d like to know that as well.

  20. There were no memorials or marches to commemorate the death of Rachel Cory, yet they fire those stupid rifles off for the death of every violent ‘martyr’.

    IdahoGirl: With all due respect, I think you don’t know very much about Palestinians. There were indeed memorials for Rachel Corrie. And I am in very close contact with many Arabs and a few Palestinians as well. Not all Palestinians or Arabs support what I write here (the same is true of Jews & Israelis) but many do. I think you’re overgeneralizing w/o enough support.

  21. That should say “terrorist’s village” as in the village from where the terrorist came from. There’s nothing racist about that.

    I find it offensive that you would conclude that a 15 yr old boy was a “terrorist” merely because he was in an Israeli prison. 15 yr old Palestinians can be put in prison for unfurling a Palestinian flag, throwing a rock at an IDF jeep, cursing a Border Policeman, etc. Or they can be in prison for a more violent act that might come close to justifying the term “terrorist.” Neither one of us knows precisely why he was there yet you’re willing to go the distance & damn him w/o any other proof than his designation by the IDF as a child worthy of incarceration.

    They killed him on purpose. A 20 year old man who, if it wasn’t for Hamas, may have made something of himself.

    Again, you have it ass backwards. The IDF & Israeli prison system got to him before Hamas did. Hamas exploited his humiliation at the hands of the Occupation forces. That is certainly damnable on their part. But as I’ve written–no Occupation, no humiliation, no suicide bombing. Israel was the first cause. Hamas only took advantage of the poison the Israeli prison guards pummeled into his body.

    What turned Harbawi into a suicide bomber was a sickening ideology and a certain way of interperting Islam and an organization and a lot of people supporting and helping him out logisitically and otherwise.

    What turned Harbawi into a suicide bombers was a sickening Occupation ideology & a certain way of interpreting Judaism & Zionism and a State and a lot of people supporting & helping the Occupation logistically & otherwise. You see 2 can play this game.

    You obviously don’t want me to post comments on your blog so I will not do so anymore.

    No, I don’t want you to call entire villages “terrorist villages.” My comment rules specifically prohibit such racism. Since you’ve explained that you didn’t intend yr comment to be racist I will rescind your ban. Instead of being racist your comment was merely deeply offensive. But I won’t ban you for that.

  22. Can we think of anyone who was held for over five years in an enemy prison, severely beaten and tortured and didn’t end up a hateful suicidal bomber? Maybe he ended up a senator and candidate for US president?

    Maybe the hate comes from somewhere else after all.

  23. Can we think of anyone who was held for over five years in an enemy prison, severely beaten and tortured and didn’t end up a hateful suicidal bomber? Maybe he ended up a senator and candidate for US president?

    You’re talking about a highly trained U.S. Navy pilot who was shot down, captured & tortured by the N. Vietnamese. And not only that, McCain’s father was a decorated Navy admiral so he was steeped in a military tradition. And you think that John McCain doesn’t have internal devils to deal w. as a result of his suffering? Al-Harbawi was a 15 yr old boy, not a trained soldier & not even an adult. The choices he made were horrible. But most of us can understand what he did while not agreeing with it.

  24. Amir has said, “Can we think of anyone who was held for over five years in an enemy prison, severely beaten and tortured and didn’t end up a hateful suicidal bomber? Maybe he ended up a senator and candidate for US president.” Boy, Amir, what a specimen you have chosen as your exemplar! John McCain, a leading Presidential candidate, is now speaking as if he might like to turn us all into one collective suicide bomber. Maybe he’s just whoring for his party’s far right-wing votes, but there he is, your man, babbling into the mike about war and more war. And just as a pleasant little additional soupçon, he, the tortured one, apparently now thinks torture just might be okee-dokey, and thus his recent vote against banning torture. Whoring again? Maybe. I suggest that you hereafter choosefor your counter-example a less maniacal or at least more honest individual.

  25. Richard:
    I don’t want to just jump in and argue with you, but I think that you’re causal assumptions are not well founded. To quote you:
    ” Again, you have it ass backwards. The IDF & Israeli prison system got to him before Hamas did.” Where is your proof of this? We are all acquainted with Palestinian T.V. children propoganda shows, glorifying matyrdom. We can only wonder what would happen if the Palestinians were lucky enough to have a leader like the Dalai Lama, and an ideology that didn’t glorify violence and death.

  26. I think, Mike, that “if the Palestinians were lucky enough to have a leader like the Dalai Lama, and an ideology that didn’t glorify violence and deat”, Israel would by now have ethnically cleansed from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, including Jerusalem, all Arabs and erected settlements throughout, the international community be damned, and America no doubt at least temporarily upset.

  27. Norman:
    You’re entitled to your opinion. I assume it is based on an extensive familiarity with Israel and Israelis (you may even be one). I don’t think that you can deny that the Israeli Army is entirely capable of ‘cleansing’ the Gaza strip, and I cannot see how you can make the argument that it is Hamas, and the PLO which is preventing them from doing it. If anything the violence and ideology would be an encouragement to be rid of them. On the other hand Hamas and the PLO are lucky that they don’t have the PRC on the other side.

  28. We can only wonder what would happen if the Palestinians were lucky enough to have a leader like the Dalai Lama, and an ideology that didn’t glorify violence and death.

    First, the Tibetans did once engage in violent resistance against China in 1959 & lost. Second, the Dalai Lama, while an extraordinary figure, has achieved little more than the Palestinians in liberating his country fr. Chinese tyranny. You may find him an admirable human being. But in terms of effectiveness, he hasn’t produced results. I don’t blame him for it. Nor do I blame the Palestinians for choosing a path of more vigorous resistance (though I do deplore suicide bombings & Qassam attacks on civilians).

    As for ideologies glorifying violence & death–you seem to have forgotten the Masada & Trumpeldor Israeli nationalist myths which do precisely that. Not to mention Baruch Goldstein admired to this day by extremist settlers.

  29. I know I said it before but the root of war (legalized cockfighting) is when humans mimic and think like animals. McCain is no hero to me. McCain left the root of war (United States) to go to war. I believe that is a sin. Cockfighting will becaome illegal in Louisiana USA in August 2008. Until then this makes the United States the root of war. I know this because I was raised on a legalized cockfighting farm (the root of war) in Schriever, Louisiana USA. PEACE.

  30. americangoy: I also have a movie for you to see amir. It is about the French counter insurgency techniques in Algeria when the Algerians revolted against being a territory of France in the 50’s and early 60’s.

    Yes, let’s use a movie to debate our points – it’s so much better than actually reading up on the subject. The French occupation of Algeria is not really comparable to the current israeli situation, because Algeria never attacked France, and was located across an ocean. But the Arabs did attack Israel the day after its founding (and ever since) and the west bank is not only directly adjacent to Israel, but it carves out a very vulnerable chunk right in the heart of it. But there is something that is very comparable. After a long desperate fight to get rid of the French, the Algerians “won”. I put that word in quotes, because 50 years later, the situation is quite different. Now Algerians are jumping over fences in European enclaves in Africa, and risking their lives in makeshift boats in desperate attempts to enter France and elsewhere in Europe to escape the Islamic “paradise” that they set up for themselves. If Israel completely withdrew, I predict the same thing would happen, but it wouldn’t take 50 years. In fact, we already saw Arabs fleeing after Hamas took over the Gaza strip last year.

    Richard Silverstein said: Why I don’t see a comarable condemnation of Hamas on your site?

    Because you’re too lazy to actually read my blog to find it. I take it you’re either in the U.S. Army or else serving in some capacity at the Wiesbaden base. I do hope you do a better job of reading yr service manuals than you do of reading my blog.

    I am a soldier (blog bio here) True, I don’t have the time to read your entire blog, but just a little perusing and I see your priorities; I find tons of criticism of Israel and zionism and not yet anything about Islamic terrorism.

    Again, you have it ass backwards. The IDF & Israeli prison system got to him before Hamas did. Hamas exploited his humiliation at the hands of the Occupation forces. That is certainly damnable on their part. But as I’ve written–no Occupation, no humiliation, no suicide bombing. Israel was the first cause.

    If I wanted to, I could go back to who started the Arab wars in 1949, and see who really was the first cause. Look, nothing justifies beating a 15 year old kid in jail. Nothing. But the fact is that if Middle Eastern nations stopped attacking Israel and/or supporting Hamas and Hizbollah, Israel would have stopped it’s war a long time ago as well.

  31. No, Mike, I’m not an Israeli, simply a very liberal American Jew whose wishes for a truly ethical, viable and wonderful Israel doesn’t include Israeli violence against a basically unarmed people, whose single most effective weapon is, alas – and I deplore it biologically and morally – the suicide bomber of whatever age and gender. I suspect the violence such a bomber represents, however, hardly equals that offered by Israeli F16s, helicopter gunships, modern tanks, and, yes, even Caterpillar tractors. And much of such Israeli violence seems largely designed to create reaction useful for continuing the violence, in itself a means ultimately to occupy all of what might be thought of as Greater, or Biblical, Israel. I’m somewhat reminded in all this back-and-forth of that arrogant and rampant mediocrity Condoleeza Rice when she fulminated against the insurgent beheaders in Iraq, calling them barbarian – and indeed they are – but hers was a gross sin of omission. We Americans have killed directly or indirectly something like a million Iraqis by now, and of course such slaughter includes the use, for instance, of cluster bombs, so beloved by those who perhaps do not consider ripping a child apart barbaric. All of this is agonizing, of course, I suspect to both of us, but one must take an honest look at what is really so and, if so inclined, summon up a good deal of simple understanding, decency, and a deep desire to make this continuing tragic outrage otherwise.

  32. let’s use a movie to debate our points – it’s so much better than actually reading up on the subject.

    Since you are a soldier, you should know that the Battle of Algiers, to which AmericanGoy refers is considered THE quintessential film about counter-insurgency used by armies around the world to teach their officers how not to deal with conflicts like the one in Algeria. It is also not entirely true that the Algerians did not attack France as there were such incidents within France itself.

    Algerians are jumping over fences in European enclaves in Africa

    You’re betraying an ideological anti-Islamic perspective. If you were honest you would recognize that migrants are flocking to Europe from many third world countries, not just Arab ones. And the liberation struggle of the 1960s has nothing whatsoever to do w. this migration. MIgrants are not fleeing Algeria because it is an Islamic paradise since it isn’t Islamic nor is it a paradise. Aren’t you aware that the military regime there has fought a decade long struggle to PREVENT a democratic Islamic takeover of the country’s political system?? Algerians (and Moroccans, & Tunisians, & Sierra Leonians, & Liberians, & Guatemalans, & Mexicans, etc.) are fleeing purely for economic reasons as migrants have for millenia (our original Jewish forbears were economic migrants fleeing famine to find bread in Egypt).

    I do hope you understand military doctrine better than you understand Islam & Arab history.

    we already saw Arabs fleeing after Hamas took over the Gaza strip last year.

    Gazans are fleeing Gaza because there is no bread, hardly any medical treatment, no jobs, no travel, no nothing–all this because of the ISRAELI siege. Not because of anything Hamas has done.

    …Just a little perusing and I see your priorities; I find tons of criticism of Israel and zionism and not yet anything about Islamic terrorism.

    The operative phrase is “just a little perusing.” Apparently not enough to find what you claim isn’t there. Here’s a tip though if you’d bothered to read my About page. I am a Jew. I have lived in Israel. I am a progressive Zionnist. My blog exists not so much to praise or condemn Islam or Arabs as to provide a perspective on Israel, it’s policies & the ways it can achieve peace. There are thousands of blogs which condemn Islam. Adding another to the list would do little to clarify anything. But there are very few blogs that propose a progressive resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That’s what my goal is here. So if you want condemnation of Islam I’m sure you know where to go to find it.

    If I wanted to, I could go back to who started the Arab wars in 1949, and see who really was the first cause.

    Do us a favor & do some reading about the Israeli-Arab conflict (there is a link in my sidebar to my blog store which features many great texts about Zionism and Israeli history) before you make historical errors of the sort you make here. The conflict did not begin in 1949 nor did Arabs start it when it did begin. Jews decided to return to Zion in the early 20th century beginning decades of tension & conflict which culminated in all the current violence we now see. Blaming one side as you do (& I want to make clear that the above sentence is not meant to place all the blame on the Jews who returned to Eretz Yisrael) is not only historically erroneous it shows blindness to truth & reality.

    As Rabbi Hillel said: “Now go and study.”

  33. I was going to reply to the American “soldier” and his “understanding” of Algerian war of independence. But thank goodness I didn’t, because after reading his characterization of Algeria as “islamic” the words that came to my mind were “moron”, “idiot” and “dumb piece of s**t”.

    The ethnic cleansing that was the 1948 war of Israeli independence (from both sides) being characterized as the Arabs only fault also got my blood boiling. At least he didn’t say that in 1948 there were no people (arabs) living there in Palestine and that the Jews settled on empty land.

    Now I realize that possibly you are a US soldier – it’s the internet, so who knows, could be true. I realize that to cope with the reality of war and occupation, the dehumanizing of the enemy and the painting them as eeeeeevil has its place. Or perhaps you are one of those wacky Middle Ages mentality xtian “taliban” fundamentalists.

    Whatever.

    Here’s the deal soldier.
    The US attack and occupation of Afghanistan was 100% justified. It was done with full support of the world’s community, with France, Russia, Iran ALL applauding the move and sharing intelligence on the taliban and al queda. What needed to happen was to show the islamic world that we mean business and that we, AMERICA, are a nation of our words. Turn Afghanistan perhaps not into paradise, but a more viable country. Kill or better yet capture bin laden. Kill the al queda chechens and other nations extremists. Give aid to Afghans. Make it work.

    That would eliminate al queda and its message of jihad against America. Would defang it – make it a non issue.

    Instead what happened was that the “war on terror” was cynically used to manipulate America into an illegal war in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11. A war that was a blatant grab for oil. Abu Ghraib. Torture. Occupation a la Israel in the West Bank.

    Now the world hates us. HATES us. Fears us. Recognizes us as a cynical bully, instead of the Superman with a red cape we tried to project ourselves as. France and Russia are actively working against us. So is Iran, which shared intelligence on al Queda before with us.

    We had an opportunity to be a world leader, just like we were after 1945. We had an opportunity to be great – again.

    And we blew it.

    You know, soldier, that what we are doing in Iraq is just plain WRONG. It’s not our country; not our land; not our business. If we had to “liberate” these people from a cruel dictator, we could have done so and then worked with the UN to make it work. Get other armies there to help us also. Make a REAL coalition of the willing.

    Instead, we now have soldiers dying for business profits. For oil. For an insane neocon ideology.

    Here is a book for you, soldier:
    http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Vintage/dp/0307278832/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203127842&sr=8-1
    Read it. It’s short and yet powerful.

    But… why bother.
    I won’t explain it here to you.
    Richard did the explaining so much better than me anyway.

  34. You’re talking about a highly trained U.S. Navy pilot who was shot down, captured & tortured by the N. Vietnamese. And not only that, McCain’s father was a decorated Navy admiral so he was steeped in a military tradition.

    That’s exactly my point. The upbringing, morals and values from ones home and society is much more important than anything that supposedly happened in prison. The HAMAS and their ideology is what killed Harbawi and turned him into a murderer.
    You are also forgetting all the suicide bombers that were college students, or relatively affluent or who were receiving medical care in Israel.
    Blaming the occupation doesn’t explain why the suicide bomber phenomenom hasn’t reached the Golan Heights which you undoubtedly consider occupied territory.
    The occupation clearly is not the root cause of the conflict. If it were than the Oslo agreement, the withdrawal from Lebanon, the withdrawal from the Gaza strip all would have brought us closer to peace.
    The root of the conflict is the refusal of the Arabs and Islamists to accept Jewish sovereignty. They are driven by an ideology emanating from Iran and Saudi Arabia, two regions, which to the best of my recollection, were never occupied by zionists.
    And Norman, I never said I supported McCain for president, I used his as an example as a person who got his life together after a very difficult experience.

  35. The upbringing, morals and values from ones home and society is much more important than anything that supposedly happened in prison.

    That’s horsecrap & you know it. If you don’t think that John McCain’s torture & imprisonment is a deeply traumatic & core experience of his life which has not only defined him as a human being, but broken him in some sense–then you have no idea how such abuse works on the human spirit. McCain’s military background & family history prepared him for the experience in the sense that it allowed him to go on & recover fr. it in some measure & lead a productive life IN SPITE OF it. Al-Harbawi had no such preparation for the torture he endured as a 15 yr old boy.

    As for the rest of yr comment you’ve repeated yrself ad nauseum saying the same things you’ve said scores of times before in the comment threads & I’m tired of repeating myself in replying to you. Please do not publish any further in this thread.

    The HAMAS and their ideology is what killed Harbawi and turned him into a murderer.

    WRONG.

    Blaming the occupation doesn’t explain why the suicide bomber phenomenom hasn’t reached the Golan Heights which you undoubtedly consider occupied territory.

    I have no idea what yr pt. here is.

    The occupation clearly is not the root cause of the conflict.

    “Clearly” to you, but to almost no other readers of this blog or any other reasonable observer of the conflict.

    the Oslo agreement, the withdrawal from Lebanon, the withdrawal from the Gaza strip all would have brought us closer to peace.

    I’ve addressed these issues seemingly 100 times before & doing so again is beyond tiresome. Oslo was a good beginning but it never proceeded beyond where it stopped and never led to final status negotiations. Lebanon has not been resolved because Israel has refused to return Shebaa Farms to either Lebanon or Syria. The Gaza withdrawal was a sham peace ploy because it was negotiated with no one other than Sharon himself & resolved none of the underlying issues separating Israel from the Palestinians.

    The root of the conflict is the refusal of the Arabs and Islamists to accept Jewish sovereignty.

    That’s dumber than dumb. Fatah does accept Israeli sovereignty. But sovereignty over what? Over Israel within the Green Line? Or Israel with the Separation Wall border? Or Israel including the Occupied Territories.

    They are driven by an ideology emanating from Iran and Saudi Arabia

    God, you belong at Little Green Footballs. Why do you waste yr time here? Their ideology is based on Palestinian nationalism pure & simple. You sound like a sock puppet for Dore Gold, Neyanyahu & the anti-Islamofascist crowd. Wouldn’t you feel more at home reading Frontpagemagazine’s and Campus Watch’s sites?

  36. Richard Silverstein: You’re betraying an ideological anti-Islamic perspective. If you were honest you would recognize that migrants are flocking to Europe from many third world countries, not just Arab ones. And the liberation struggle of the 1960s has nothing whatsoever to do w. this migration. MIgrants are not fleeing Algeria because it is an Islamic paradise since it isn’t Islamic nor is it a paradise.

    Yes, I was being SARCASTIC when I referred to Algeria as an “Islamic paradise” (that’s why the word was in quotes). Yes, its not just happening in Algeria, although I don’t know how that’s relevant. The point is that these people who not long ago desperately wanted to get rid of their European masters are now just as desperately trying to get back to them now that things aren’t working out.

    Gazans are fleeing Gaza because there is no bread, hardly any medical treatment, no jobs, no travel, no nothing–all this because of the ISRAELI siege. Not because of anything Hamas has done.

    hmmm – then a couple of questions:
    1) Why did they start fleeing immediately even before the bread ran out?
    2) Why don’t you consider the Egyptians to be the ones “sieging” Gaza? After all, it was part of Egypt, and they are fencing them in as well, even bashing heads at the border. And unlike the Israelis, they aren’t being rocketed on a daily basis.

    Perhaps you need to do a little reading. Just a suggestion.

    Here’s a tip though if you’d bothered to read my About page. I am a Jew. I have lived in Israel.

    Like that matters how? I have met more self-hating Jews & Arab apologists than you would believe. If you do any reading you might actually come across some names like Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky. Just being Jewish doesn’t count for much here.

    But there are very few blogs that propose a progressive resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That’s what my goal is here. So if you want condemnation of Islam I’m sure you know where to go to find it.

    I sincerely with you luck with that, but if you consistently condemn one side of the conflict you may not be treating the situation very fairly, but it is your blog.

    Do us a favor & do some reading about the Israeli-Arab conflict (there is a link in my sidebar to my blog store which features many great texts about Zionism and Israeli history) before you make historical errors of the sort you make here. The conflict did not begin in 1949 nor did Arabs start it when it did begin. Jews decided to return to Zion in the early 20th century beginning decades of tension & conflict which culminated in all the current violence we now see.

    Yes, LOL, I guess I should read up on the Jewish suicide bombers who revolted against Ottoman and British rule. It’s also completely disingenuous to claim that Jews only returned to Israel recently – they had never completely left.

    americangoy said: The ethnic cleansing that was the 1948 war of Israeli independence (from both sides) being characterized as the Arabs only fault also got my blood boiling.

    Well, then prepare to have it boiling some more. On May 14, 1948 (not 1949, as a typo on my part) Israel declared independence. The very next day it was attacked by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq. Even the Arab nations don’t dispute this.

    Now I realize that possibly you are a US soldier – it’s the internet, so who knows, could be true.

    If you have any doubts, you can refer to some of my flickr photo sets here and here.

    Instead what happened was that the “war on terror” was cynically used to manipulate America into an illegal war in Iraq,…

    Instead, we now have soldiers dying for business profits. For oil. For an insane neocon ideology.

    Sorry, I would love to show you the error of your ways right now but I’m sticking to one debate at a time. And I’ve been right in the middle of it, so I hardly need any lessons from you.

  37. 1) Why did they start fleeing immediately even before the bread ran out?

    There has been a massive flight from Gaza since the Israeli siege. I see no evidence there was such a flight before that. Again, people leave for economic reasons, not ideological ones.

    Why don’t you consider the Egyptians to be the ones “sieging” Gaza? After all, it was part of Egypt, and they are fencing them in as well,

    Egypt is quite content that Gaza is under siege since it hates Hamas only a little less than Israel does. However, Egypt allowed its border to be breached for over a week out of sympathy for the Gazans’ plight. Israel would never show such mercy.

    I have met more self-hating Jews & Arab apologists

    If you even come close to hinting that I fall into that category I’ll ban you here so fast yr head will spin. Such terms violate my comment rules & don’t even think of trying it. There are plenty of sites like Little Green Footballs that welcome that kind of propagandistic language. Go there is you want to employ it. And Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein are not self-hating Jews. I don’t know whether you yrself are Jewish. But if you are not, you have absolutely no right to define who is or is not a self-hating Jew. I don’t define for Christians who is a good one & who isn’t & I won’t allow non-Jews to do the same here.

    if you consistently condemn one side of the conflict

    Look, this is the 3rd time you’ve made this claim & the 3rd time I’ve told you it’s false. So don’t make it again. If you’re too lazy to search this blog then don’t bother writing falsehoods here.

    It’s also completely disingenuous to claim that Jews only returned to Israel recently – they had never completely left.

    Omigod, you’re going to teach me Jewish history?? I know perfectly well there have always been Jews living in what is now Israel. What any reasonable person would’ve understood was that I said the mass migration of Jews back to Palestine which began at the turn of the 20th century was what began the process of tension & conflict bet. Jews & Arabs.

  38. “Instead, we now have soldiers dying for business profits. For oil. For an insane neocon ideology.

    Sorry, I would love to show you the error of your ways right now but I’m sticking to one debate at a time. And I’ve been right in the middle of it, so I hardly need any lessons from you. ”

    Do tell me please.

  39. “Instead, we now have soldiers dying for business profits. For oil. For an insane neocon ideology.

    Sorry, I would love to show you the error of your ways right now but I’m sticking to one debate at a time. And I’ve been right in the middle of it, so I hardly need any lessons from you.”

    Please, don’t hold back. Explain.
    Why did we go into Iraq, and why do we stay now as occupiers of a foreign country?

  40. Saying that Norm Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky are NOT self hating Jews is an astounding statement. One that is truly at odds with every shred of evidence in their writings and lectures.

  41. The term “self-hating Jew” is one of the lamest, most-abused, & simply obtuse terms ever invented to smear a Jew or any human being. It’s merely cover for an attack on someone whose political views you detest & a way to dismimss those views w/o actually engaging w. them.

    Both individuals are proud of being Jewish hence claiming they hate their Jewishness is false. They are yr political enemies so you take the unfortunate short cut of calling them self-haters as if that will somehow discredit the political views you detest.

    Yr definition of a proud Jew is one who waves an Israeli flag and sings Hatikvah at the top of their lungs. Theirs’ isn’t. That doesn’t make them self-haters.

    I’m not going to get into a long argument about this term. It’s against my comment rules to use it. Period. So don’t.

  42. Richard Silverstein said:
    Egypt is quite content that Gaza is under siege since it hates Hamas only a little less than Israel does. However, Egypt allowed its border to be breached for over a week out of sympathy for the Gazans’ plight. Israel would never show such mercy.

    “allowed it to be breached”? Hamas forcefully knocked down the barrier, and now Egypt is closing it back up. And “Israel would never show such mercy?” Israel is being attacked daily! Egypt is not. Israel gives full rights to its own citizens of every religion, Egypt does not. Look, the Gazans wanted independence, and like those Algerians, they are finding out that it’s not as great as they thought it would be. You also can’t commit war against another state, demand separation from it, and then act so indignant when that state actually decides to break off relations. This is part of an overall pattern; Arabs oppress other Arabs, and to the media it’s “business as usual, nothing to see here”. But when Israel or the US does it, it gets microscopic scrutiny from all corners. Did you know that Saudi Arabia has given billions to US universities alone – money that, if they really cared, could have done much to alleviate the Palestinian’s plight instead (Arafat also had hundreds of millions in his personal account when he died). It’s as if the Arab & other Islamic nations are far less interested in actually helping Palestinians than they are in keeping this conflict alive so they can milk it for political gain. Just about every Arab failing is attributed to Israel in some form or another. I have met many Iraqis, some very well educated (including one at Oxford) who blamed the Iraqi war on the “Jews who control America”. Jews are blamed for everything, sometimes even by other Jews, which brings us to the next point.

    I have met more self-hating Jews & Arab apologists

    If you even come close to hinting that I fall into that category I’ll ban you here so fast yr head will spin. Such terms violate my comment rules & don’t even think of trying it. There are plenty of sites like Little Green Footballs that welcome that kind of propagandistic language. Go there is you want to employ it. And Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein are not self-hating Jews. I don’t know whether you yrself are Jewish. But if you are not, you have absolutely no right to define who is or is not a self-hating Jew. I don’t define for Christians who is a good one & who isn’t & I won’t allow non-Jews to do the same here.

    I don’t know you well enough to make that accusation against you, and I’m actually kind of surprised you find the term so offensive, since many Jews I have met on both sides of the debate have used it. But it’s true that the term is not terribly constructive since the definition is rather nebulous, so I’ll refrain from using it. In any case, the actual point I was getting at is that both Finkelstein and Chomsky bash Israel at every turn, often unjustly, and then use their Jewish ancestry as a shield against counter-criticism. I don’t think that’s right.

    americangoy said:

    Please, don’t hold back. Explain.
    Why did we go into Iraq, and why do we stay now as occupiers of a foreign country?

    I’m not trying to brush you off, but you can go to my blog, or many other place where I debate the subject in full; I find debates very hard to follow when they start branching off into too many side directions.

  43. Hamas forcefully knocked down the barrier, and now Egypt is closing it back up.

    You don’t think a sovereign nation has the ability to close & seal its border should it choose to do so? You don’t believe Egypt deliberately chose to allow its border to be breached for two weeks in sympathy with Gazan suffering? You don’t believe Egypt has agreed in principle to freer flow across its border as a price for Hamas’ agreement not to breach the border again?

    Israel is being attacked daily!

    Yes, by several hundred militants firing rockets and mortars which land mostly ineffectually in Israel. Israel’s response is to cause immense suffering to 1.5 million innocent civilians. That is what I meant by Israel’s unwillingness to show mercy. Jews are a people of mercy and Israel’s treatment of Gaza is a betrayal of Jewish values regardless of the reprehensible actions of a very small minority of the Gaza population.

    Israel gives full rights to its own citizens of every religion

    What in heaven’s name have you been reading and where did you find such bogus information? Are you reading Israeli foreign ministry press releases? My God man, read up on Israeli social history & you’d realize how complete erroneous such a comment is. Israel is a country which PROFESSES to grant equal rights to all its citizens regardless of religion. But it has not actually done so.

    Gazans wanted independence, and like those Algerians, they are finding out that it’s not as great as they thought it would be.

    Gazans didn’t want a siege to the death. They wanted a Palestinian state. Instead they got the equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto though so far without the final liquidation.

    You also can’t commit war against another state, demand separation from it, and then act so indignant when that state actually decides to break off relations.

    This too is bogus. Israel hasn’t merely “broken off relations.” It is legally responsible for Gaza since it not only provides much of its electricity, water & other utilities, but also controls ingress and egress from Gaza territory. It has put Gaza under siege and Gazans have every right to “act so indignant” at such treatment.

    You know, it’s quite humorous that you accuse me of only blaming Israel and not condemning the alleged sins of the Arabs when it is actually YOU who blames all the sins on the Arabs and not once has accepted any responsibility on Israel’s part for Palestinian suffering or the Occupation. How do you explain that?

    I’m actually kind of surprised you find the term so offensive

    Don’t be. ALL progressive Jews detest this phrase. If you actually knew any you’d know that. Clearly you don’t.

    many Jews I have met on both sides of the debate have used it.

    Name one progressive Jew who has ever called a right-wing Jew “self-hating?”

    both Finkelstein and Chomsky bash Israel at every turn, often unjustly

    Finkelstein and Chomsky criticize Israeli policy. Such criticism is entirely legitimate. There is much to criticize in Israeli policy. If Israel ever signed a peace agreement with Palestine their criticism would either cease or be greatly muted. They are not opposed to Israel. They are opposed to Israeli policy.

    Our debate in this thread has gone on long enough. Any questions I asked above were rhetorical & do not require a response. Feel free to comment in other threads on other subjects if you choose. But don’t comment further in this thread.

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