I haven’t yet gotten Aussie Dave to answer many of my questions about JIB Award procedures here. But he has been exchanging e mails with me. And they raise more questions in my mind than they answer.
First, poor Dave thinks I’ve accused him of corruption:
The point is you come out in public and accuse me of “corruption”, and ignoring the left-leaning blogs. I have been nothing but fair.
“Corruption??” Whatever is the fellow talking about? When & where did I say that? I questioned the political composition & diversity of the categories. I noted questions about whether he could be objective enough in deciding who should & shouldn’t be eligible under the incredibly fuzzy guidelines Derek Fattal quoted to me. I criticized the narrow marketing of the competition. But accusing him of corruption? I think he’s getting a little carried away.
Pro-Israel to the Core
And the following explanation of JIB Award’s purpose clearly indicates there is an ideological bias in the very conception of the competition. Here’s how Dave puts it:
…A role of Jewish, Israeli, and pro-Israel bloggers is to direct world opinion in favor of Israel. And to really stretch the metaphor, the object of these awards is to direct new readers towards Jewish, Israeli, and pro-Israel blogs.
I wrote back to Dave that I have no problem with the 2nd part of the statement–an awards competition that increased awareness of a broad array of Jewish & Israeli blogs would be a good thing. But the fact that he also intends the Awards to “direct world opinion in favor of Israel” perfectly illustrates my problem with it. The purpose of most JIB Award bloggers does seem to be to “direct world opinion in favor of Israel.” But that’s not necessarily the purpose of most Jewish & Israeli bloggers. You could legitimately say that a well-run competition would make the world more aware of Israel. But to have a purpose of promoting Israel really leaves you open to the charge that the JIB Award is meant to justify Israel to the world & to elicit sympathy and understanding for Israel in general & specifically for its policies toward the Palestinians. Why can’t we just have faith that a well-rounded roster of blogs would, in and of themselves increase understanding of Israel. Why do we have to expect that the JIB Award will cheerlead or proselytize for Israel?
While there is much to admire in Jewish life, culture and religion. One feature I do not admire much is a certain insularity that comes from millennia of persecution and bloodletting at the hands of various Jew haters. That’s why much of the Jewish press (including the Jerusalem Post) often seems to be engaged in cheerleading and defense of Israel rather than dispassionately examining the major issues of Jewish life (including Israel).
A blog competition that has an ideological slant which it refuses to acknowledge does no favors for itself or Israel.
How Did Little Green Footballs Get Into a “Jewish Israeli Blog Awards?”
Dave does attempt to explain the inclusion of non-Jewish, non-Israeli blogs like LGF and several others. But his explanation doesn’t satisfy:
“Nothing about having to be Jewish there [in the rules], BTW.”
What about “The Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards?” That implies that the blogs are either “Jewish” or “Israeli.” If the JIB Award intended to include Charles and the others he should change the title to include that notion.
I finally got Dave to respond to my question about whether my own blog would’ve been eligible:
…Your blog would likely have been included
“Likely” isn’t “definitely” but it’s a good deal of the way there. And that does reassure me somewhat.
But again, he loses points for this passage from our exchange in which he talks about Jewschool, one of the nominated blogs:
Mobius, by no means a friend of mine, has told you that the contest is not rigged, and he himself has been a beneficiary of my fairness.
I’ll leave aside what Mobius did or didn’t tell me because I have no right to draw others into an argument I chose to start. But to say that Mobius’ Jewschool “has been a beneficiary of my fairness” sounds condescending beyond words. What–are liberal blogs there at the sufferance of the Grand Pasha Dave, JIB Award sponsor? Dave and the others who’ve criticized me here for my JIBA posts may not like my charges but in many ways their statements only bring it on themselves.
Dave doesn’t like hearing my complaints:
…Quit the bitching.
Were his immortal words. Jews are a people who bitch when they think there’s something wrong with the world that should be put right. And I think the world’s a better place for it. That’s what my intent was. Derek didn’t seem to think there was anything in my criticisms worth taking seriously. Dave apparently believes the same. I guess I just keep bitching a bit more until I hear otherwise.
Dave creates another point of confusion in discussing the process by which a blog may be disqualified. The Post’s representative led me to believe that Dave was handling the nomination process & questions of eligibility. Dave says differently:
I do not decide this myself, as you claim, but with the JPost.
I think it’d make for more transparency if Dave told us how a blog he thought should be disqualified would be handled.
Sad little man,
Did you ask for permission to print our private email exchange? Of course not, but I have nothing to hide. Besides, you lack any sense of etiquette or civility, so I didn’t expect as much from you.
““Corruption??” Whatever is the fellow talking about? When & where did I say that?”
Are you really THAT dense? You blatantly accused me of rigging the competition. For instance:
“But seriously, one of the main reasons Charles gets nominated is that he in turn invited Aussie Dave to join him in Pajamas Media (see the latter’s profile). So it’s only natural that Dave would return the favor.”
If that isn’t an accusation of corruption, I don’t know what is.
Woo hoo! You finally realized that the JIBs were borne out of my love for Israel!!! Guilty as charged!! Yet strangely enough, I have not excluded any blogs critical of Israel. Most weird. Could it be that I understand the fact that people have different ideas about advocacy? You obviously don’t.
There was nothing condescending about the Mobius comment. He did benefit from the fact that I have been fair, since he and I have had many duels online. But I would not allow any of this to taint the JIBs.
And that is all I have to say. You are so sad and pathetic. You think you got the scoop of the century on what? An online blog awards, the purpose of which is to bring Israeli, Jewish, and pro-Israel blogs more exposure. That is it! Anyone can invent their own awards. As I said on my blog, maybe you can invent your own..like one highlighting anti-Israel blogs. Or perhaps blogs written by dense, attention-seeking relics from the Sixties, with really bad taste in aprons.
At least instead of sitting back and just levelling vicious accusations at people, I did something constructive.
I can’t help by notice that a large number of people “on the right” can’t respond to criticism without launching ad hominem attacks… (ie dense, attention-seeking relics from the Sixties).
I haven’t bothered to read all the cross links – and in particular the 43 responses to the first post (I’m on the clock here and shouldn’t be spending this time)
But I do have to comment that – when I went to the voting site – it sure seemed to me the choices were pretty slanted.
As a little background – if you know Chicago politics – I am would would be validly described a “Lakefront Liberal” – in fact the Reform Synagogue I do attend regularly is located quite literally on Chicago’s Lakefront.
There are a very sizable number of us on the left here in the US who have similar views to Richard. I find his blog refreshing and I enjoy it. If it was nominated I would have voted for it.
I enjoy Jewschool as well – but I’m CLOSER in age to Richard than Mobious – so it is more resonant to me.
I have family members with political viewpoints that I disagree with – but we love each other and can calmly and intelligently discuss Jewish and Israeli politics (heck my father-in-law is a born-again Christian and we can).
It’s sad to see this Fox News attitude from fellow Jews – I expect better…
Well put Dan. But you know, Richard and his wild accusations are what set the tone here. And this is coming from a Liberal. I say this as I watch in horror as the Conservatives are about to defeat the Liberals in my beloved Canada, and here I am in Jerusalem, unable to do anything about it. Dang. But yeah, Fox news, starring Richard Silverstein. You hit the nail right on the head.
Hey Dave,
In the interests of balance and fairness. How about this for a new title??
The Annual Aussie Dave List of Jewish, Israeli and American right wing nutjob (that are pro-Israel to the point of praying for Armageddon) Blogs.
That way you accurately portray the Jewish and Israeli blogs as well as covering the participation of racist, devisive, propaganda fiends like LGF, Roger L. Simon, Protein Wisdom, Atlas Shruggs and Cox and Forkum. How about it?
You can’t seriously title the Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards as it is while including those kind of people. That makes no sense.
Richard, what, precisely, is your beef with Dave and JIBs?
You know what, let’s assume ALL your charges to be true. Dave created an event called Jewish and Israeli Blogs Awards specifically for the purpose of glorifying the Zionist state and rewarding its advocates, and he is the one who runs the show and decides who’s in and who’s out. Suppose. Where exactly is the crime in it?
That the awards are intended to “direct the world opinion in favor of Israel”? What is wrong or inappropriate about it? Why do you see it as an illegitimate way of promoting one’s agenda? Unless, of course, you find anything that casts Israel in a favorable light inappropriate- but then it is YOU who has bias issues.
That Dave runs the show? Even if he does- he has the right. He created the awards. If you create your own awards, you will also run the show as you please.
That there are more right wing than left wing blogs nominated? Well, Dave may run the show (if he does, that is) but he doesn’t nominate the blogs, obviously. You were right when you called that group of blogs self-selected- THEY INDEED NOMINATE EACH OTHER and left-wing blogs can do the very same thing.
That a blog of a non-Jewish, non-Israeli person was nominated and accepted? The competition rules do say clearly that pro-Israeli blogs are included as well. The title does not include them- but that isn’t what your vitriol is all about, is it Richard?
That virulently anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic blogs may not be accepted? Kind of makes sense, given the nature of the competition. Besides, why would such a blog want to be nominated for JIBs in the first place? And if that is not enough, let us see which blogs were rejected and on what grounds. Got examples?
Yeah sure. Just like when a woman gets an unwanted pass–she was asking for it. I just noticed what Dan noticed (glad you agreed with Dan who agreed with me–but how you still manage to get a few jabs in is rather remarkable) that the competition is slanted. And if you still persist in accusing me of being a wild-eyed bomb thrower you should read my latest post in which I quote Dave who actually says that the purpose of JIBA (not just the political categories, but all of JIBA) is to be “pro-Israel” & place Israel in a better light in world opinion. Some among us would label this as propaganda.
Again, you misconstrue Dave’s comment about Fox News. He was criticizing the LGF groupies here in saying they show a Fox News attitude toward this blog. He wasn’t criticizing me though I have no wonder that you’d construe it that way. Oh yes, the thought crossed my mind that you might say I missed the irony in your statement. Again, if so it was far too subtle for me to pick up on.
As for the notion that you are “liberal,” what a laugh. I consider myself liberal & I certainly wouldn’t want to be a member of any club you’re in. Unless there’s a breed of liberal that is chulish, mean-spirited and just plain nasty.
Using your twisted logic, I am worthy of a “Palestinian” blog award, right? I mean, I talk about the “brown people” (as you put it) so I must deserve a Palestian & Muslim Blog Award!
Believe it or not, talking about a subject doesn’t make you worthy of special consideration for an award. Writing posts that people actually care about do.
As you can tell from you history of comments on these posts, the average reader finds your views ridiculous at best, and ignorant at worst.
Good job man… you’ll win an award in no time.
Oh Dave. First is was a curt “Silverstein” to put me in my place. Now it’s a plaintive “sad, little man.” It really does your point of view ill to hurl silly insults at people instead of addressing them civilly.
Dave, the first rule of e mail is that it is NOT private. If you send e mail assuming it is private boy are you mistaken. Besides you never said in any of your messgages that you intended them to be private. Should I have read your mind? And what was “private” about them? Your personal life? You’re blog trade secrets? No, they were all about JIBA an open public competition. So what’s the beef here?
Second, I’ve asked you repeatedly to post here your comments on my posts. You’ve explicitly refused to do so. The only direct reponse from you has been those “private” e mails. It was all I had.
Well, Dave I guess you DONT’T know what corruption is. I’d quote the dictionary definition for you but I’m going to leave that little research task to you. Doing favors for friends that doesn’t involve financial payments is not generally considered “corruption.” Ensuring that a blogging competition includes all your fellow blogging friends and fellow travellers is not “corruption.” It’s a lot of negative things, but it isn’t “corruption.” I did level criticisms of JIBA. You could’ve quoted any of those to criticize me. Instead you chose a loaded term which I never used & would never have charged you with.
What’s the whole mania for advocacy?? You think Israel needs propaganda? No, Israel needs blogs which present its culture, religion and politics (all sides by the way, not just one). And most of all, Israel needs new leadership, new ideas (a new government would be nice too), and new policies. Israel needs to open its eyes and ears to the world around it. Not just to hear the voices of hatred (of which there are undoubtedly many and which I deplore). But to hear the voices of friends who know it can do better–that it must do better if there is ever to be a safe, stable and secure Israel.
I am a supporter of Israel. But I view tendentious “advocacy” as not being a real service in Israel’s cause. We can do better by presenting an unvarnished, forthright picture of the country than by “advocacy.”
And if you called JIBA the ‘Israel Advocacy Blog Awards,’ I’d have no problem with it. Then at least there’d be “truth in advertising” & you’d know what you’re getting.
Nothing condescending in saying that Jewschool has “benefited from your fair and reasonable” administration of the awards? Sure makes it sound to me like you only let his blog in as a matter of noblesse oblige in your capacity as the benevolent JIBA administrator.
I guess we’ll have to let others judge which of us is right. A “reasonable layperson” I have no doubt would know condescending when he/she saw it. You were condescending though perhaps you didn’t mean to be.
Again you cut to the quick with your savage sarcasm! Sure puts me in my place right quick. And once again you care not a whit for what I say or write. I wrote in this post that a competition designed to promote all Israeli/Jewish blogs would be great. But one’s whose added purpose is to present a rose-colored glasses view of Israel is not great.
Further, why would I have any interest in promoting “anti-Israel blogs” when I’ve made clear my views about Israel both here in this comment and in my blog itself? Besides, if I did want to create a showcase for blogs, why would I want to replicate the imperfections of JIBA by promoting only one point of view? Furthermore, I find it interesting that you say anti-Israel blogs are not welcome at JIBA. And you say that my own blog would likely be included if nominated. Yet you assign me the job of organizing the anti-Israel blog world. If you believe that is my interest then why would you include my blog in JIBA–after all you seem to be implying that I am anti-Israel in your statements.
Again with the “attention-seeking.” As if you don’t seek attention for your blog! Spare me the sarcasm. Save it for some other shlump you want to sling mud at. Oh, and now you choose to insult the images on my blog (hence the reference to the apron I wear while baking cookies with my son). Just who’s the pathetic one?
You DID do something constructive and I give you credit for it. It’s just that you could’ve done it even better than you have.
Breaking News:
Richard Silverstein’s blog is up to 12 daily readers now! Break out the champaign!
First you illiterate ignoramus, learn how to spell (‘champagne’–oh but I forgot that’s a French word & you righties & “pro-Israel” folks hate those Frenchies now don’t you–guess that’s why you refuse to spell the word right).
As for my blog traffic, thanks to LGF’s & Israelly Cool’s fiery denunciations of me, 2,000 of yr fellow critters got a chance to walk on the wild side of the Zionist divide yesterday. My biggest day yet. And I get about 200,000 yearly visitors. So take your absurdly fraudulent statistics & shove ’em where the sun don’t shine.
Not that I’m bragging about my site traffic because it is small compared to the megasites like Daily Kos or Instapundit. But then again, I have a different & more personal blog focus than their sites.
In addition to not being able to spell, you don’t read well do you? I didn’t call anyone “brown people.” Jesus’ General did. I wouldn’t choose to call anyone a “brown person.” But that’s his perogative in his blog. I just quoted a passage which happened to contain that phrase.
If there was a Palestinian Blog Award I’d expect the blogs to be Palestinian, that is– written by Palestinian. If there was a Palestinian Solidarity Blog Award, I’d expect a broader selection including non-Palestinian ones including ewww–I know this will make you retch–Rafah Pundits, Raising Youssouf and blogs by ISM supporters. In just the same way, if Dave called his little tea party the ‘Israeli Advocacy’ or ‘Israel Solidarity Blog Award,’ he’d find no problems with me as this would actually tell people what the award was about politically and ideologically.
As for you and your blog, you don’t belong in civilized company (at least from the house manners you’ve shown in your visits here). The fact that you’re in JIBA competition is a sorry reflection on the quality and manners of the those involved with it.
No, wrong again (you must win some kind of prize for one of the more obtuse commenters ever to grace this blog). The 2,000 readers who were driven here yesterday by my good friends over at LGF are NOT ‘average readers,’ they’re fellow travelers of Chuck & Dave. As I’ve already written, a self-selected group of the self-righteous and self-important who always know what’s best and right for Israel and the Jewish people.
The true “average reader” of this site is the other 198,000 who come here throughout the rest of the yr. when LGF doesn’t light up my Christmas lights. I’m quite pleased with most of them. Now why don’t you scoot over to whereever the mice play in your neck of the woods? I’m sure you’ll like the atmosphere much more among your own kind of red-necked rodents.
Seriously, my blog comment rules, clearly spelled out in above the comment box (which you’ve certainly ignored or not read) indicate that insults and abuse directed at me earn banning of the comment & possibly the commenter. Cross the line again & you’re toast.
Womble: Three posts, several thousands words & all the replies to comments I’ve posted here & you’re still asking that question? If you can’t answer it you haven’t been reading. I won’t spell it out again. Go read, it’ll do you good (or maybe not if you’re with the LGF folks on this subject).
For the umpteenth time in comments here I say–nothing wrong in Dave running blog awards. He should have the courage of his convictions to state clearly in the title what his goals are in hosting it. ‘Israel Adovcacy’ or ‘Israel Solidarity’ Blog Awards would be fine. But that’s NOT their title.
But this type of biased competition doesn’t cast Israel in a favorable light. It ony continues the insular nature of right-wing support for Israel. In your opinion and the opinion of the LGFniks & J. Post readers it casts Israel in a favorable light. But that’s rather a minority in the overall scheme of the world Jewish community.
A 95/5% divide between conservative and progressive blogs deserves a more precise adverb than “more.” How about MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more??
Wrong again, it’s precisely what my argument IS about. And it wasn’t one blog, there are several that fall into that classification. The JIBA title doesn’t include them and that’s misleading and confusing to many (though not to you & those who worship at the shrine of Johnson).
Again, the rules don’t use the term “virulent.” That’s your deliberate overstatement. The rules for eligibility are equally imprecise as I’ve noted here several times. They seem to say that eligibility will be judged using the frame of reference of an “average layperson” with no ideological baggage. Yet Aussie Dave, hardly an individual with no ideological baggage, is the primary judge of this. And blogs whose “raison d’etre” is criticism of Israel are one example of those ineligible. This is murkier than a pea soup fog.
What constitutes going over the line? Do they measure how many posts in an overall blog are critical of Israel? Does the blogger have to be Zionist? What if a blogger accepts a one-state solution?
I criticize Israel in my blog. Yet Dave has written that I would “likely” be accepted if I was nominated. All well and good. But why should I be if Dave finds my blog so deeply offensive and objectionable? It would be clearer and more coherent as a project if it was a competition of conservative Jewish and Israeli bloggers.
Why not change the name to the Jewish & Israeli Advocacy Blog Awards. Not as cartchy I’ll grant you, but atleast it half way more representative than the JIBA. The problem here is the JP and Aussie Dave can’t seem to get their story straight about who makes the decision on who’s included…..that’s enough to put doubt in peoples minds. Especially when you consider the amount of right wing blogs in the mix and Aussie Dave’s links to them. That’s not to suggest any dishonesty on his part, it just raises questions as to wether the JIBAS are accurately named considering their ideological bias.
The story has been straight from the start. Any Jewish, Israeli, or pro-Israel blog can be included. And “pro-Israel” has a wider connotation than being “right-wing.”
You have gone from suggesting that the process is tained, to now suggesting that your gripe is with the name? Don’t you have anything better to do?
The JIBs will remain the “JIBs’, whether you like it or not. And given that the idea behind the awards is explicitly mentioned, there is no issue of a hidden agenda.
One more thing: if you level serious allegations at someone, don’t expect them to “play nicely.”
Consider this my last comment on this topic.
“And given that the idea behind the awards is explicitly mentioned, there is no issue of a hidden agenda. ”
Then tell people within the rules who decides who is accepted, the JP says you do and you say you do it with the JP. There’s an obvious problem there. There is also a problem when people see that you, as a member of Pajamas Media, are running a competition named ‘The Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards” where non-Jewish and non-Israeli blogs are accepted for nomination. And in the case of the ‘Mega Blog’ category 90% of them are Pajamas Media blogs and 100% of them are right wing blogs (some of which, as Mobius at Jewschool and Dov Bear explain, are actually harmful to Israel’s image). Not because you may or may not have influenced the competition or ‘rigged’ it, but because it opens yourself and Jerusalem Post up to the accusation because of the poor excecution and confused messages on who’s actually making the decisions.
Just one question: how much longer do you intend to go on with this rampage? It’s getting kind of old and boring, don’t you think? How about moving on to something else?
You’re really fighting a losing battle to defend the competition’s “open-mindedness.” Show me a single example anywhere of the term “pro-Israel” meaning anything but single-minded advocacy of Israeli government policy. I suppose that if you took the term literally (alas, no one does) that it would mean someone who supported Israel or was in favor of Israel. But this is far different than using “pro-Israel” to mean you support an endless Occupation of Occupied Territories; or you oppose allowing Israeli Arabs to have Knesset representation (as one of your ‘friends’ did in these threads); or that you support transfer of the Israeli Arab population out of Israel (again a common desire of the Israeli far-right); or that you actually oppose Israeli government policy when it involves forced withdrawal of settlers from Gaza or the West Bank. I call that “Israel right or wrong.”
Further, you yourself say another purpose of JIBA is to promote understanding of Israel’s policies in the eyes of world opinion. How “wide” is that “connotation?”
No, I’m claiming that the process is skewed rightward AND that the name, perhaps inadvertently or perhaps not, disguises this. And what, I’m not allowed to make two criticisms of JIBA?
As for not having anything better to do. One purpose of my blog is to try to keep the world, people, fellow bloggers Israel and the Palestinians honest about issues that are important to me. I can’t think of much that is “better” than that (excluding my own wonderful family which various would-be commenters/trash talkers have also taken to disparaging in their own delightful way).
One of your ‘friends’ in a comment thread here said you’d actually made “corrections” to JIBA based on some of my suggestions, to which I replied I’d welcome that and like to hear about them here in this blog. But from your petulant comment above it appears you wish to sail on secure in notion that you are always in the right. Be my guest. But given your pig-headedness, you may find it more difficult to enlist the participation of any blogger who doesn’t share your own particular political predilections about Israeli politics.
Sorry, but yes if I level serious allegations about someone I expect them to show a modicum of civility and respect to me in arguing their position here. It’s my blog. I don’t especially care what you or anyone else says about me elsewhere because I have less control over that & it’s not mine. This IS mine. I don’t crap on your (I mean “you” collectively) carpet and I expect that you won’t do the same to mine. If you do, you’re not going to be here. That’s why I’ve exiled several of your choicer ‘friends’ to oblivion.
Your choice.
Gib: “Rampage?” I guess it all depends on your point of view & whose ox is being gored. To you it’s a “rampage” and to me it’s an examination of the issues surrounding a Jewish blog competition. And since it’s not your blog I guess you don’t have a vote in how long I talk about this. I’ll just continue dealing with this subject until I’ve said all that I have to say about it or until my criticisms are addressed or resolved.
My blog has over 1,000 other posts including many dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If you truly want “something else” go read them. But what you really want to say is “quit pickin’ on my friend Aussie Dave…or Charles Johnson…or whoever.” Sorry, but this blog doesn’t pull any punches for the likes of them.
It is you fighting the losing battle here, Silverstein. The fact remains that left-leaning blogs have always been included, and would have been better represented had people nominated them.
As for making “corrections” based on your suggestions, you are once again showing your sloppiness. This is utterly false, and I reject it wholeheartedly. I suggest you stop remaining on heresay and start fact-checking.
I am so bored by this discussion. Get on with your life now.
Dave: I am not being sloppy. One of the commenters here, who was actually trying to argue to me that you were willing to listen to the ideas of others (boy was he wrong!), wrote that changes had been made in the competition. If he’s wrong it’s not me who’s sloppy but the commenter & you’ll have to take it up with him. I just report the news, I don’t make it.
As for petulantly insisting that you’ll make no changes in JIBA based on my suggestions. I’m glad to see that you’ll remain in character as a rigid, intolerant blogger. I was almost ready to give you credit for being willing to examine your assumptions and ideas based on hearing the thoughts and ideas of those who don’t necessarily share your point of view. Glad you relieved me of that obligation.
In your last comment, you said you would make no more. Now, here you say you’re bored with the discussion. I didn’t ask you to continue it.
And again by saying “get on with your life” you mean ‘quick pickin’s on me & JIBA & find someone else to bother.’ But Dave, you & JIBA are such a worthy target. Sorry but I still have things to say.
yes, you are incredibly sloppy. You claim to be well read and researched, yet you quote as fact things you do not doublecheck. This is even worse given that you are impugning my name and the name of the competition I started.
You also happened to misrepresent what was said by “my friend” in the comments. He never said that “changes had been made in the competition” on the basis of your suggestions. He said: “Furthermore you should apologize to Dave for not crediting him with the corrections he’s made to you.” I made the correction that my original comment was now up on your site, after I claimed that it had been deleted (you claimed it appeared after a moderation process).
For the record, I have implemented a number of suggestions. But here’s a tip: attacking me is not a way to have your suggestions heard. Neither is trying to bully me into rejecting blogs with whose ideology you do not agree.
You are a boldfaced liar in other ways. After accusing me of corruption – yes, that was your claim ( “corruption” implies dishonesty: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=corrupt), you did not retract the allegation. (Your allegations vis-a-vis LGF and myself clearly involve claims of dishonesty and impropriety, so don’t lecture me on misusing words).
Sloppy is as sloppy does. You’re the sloppy one. You do understand the difference between saying “Dave made adjustments to the competition” and “a commenter here says Dave made adjustments to the competition?” The first is a declaration of fact (whch I never made) and the second is attribution of a statement to a third party.
Impugning your name? Not really, but you can take it however you wish. Impuging your site? Damn straight I am.
I did not “misrepresent” what he said. He made an inarticulate statement which I attempted to parse. Saying I should credit you for “corrections he’s made to you” can mean a lot of things. I interpreted it one way, you another. I misunderstood him. I’d suggest that you ask him not to attempt to represent anything you do to anyone else as it’s very likely to be misunderstood by anyone attempting to read it.
Talk about misrepresentation. Why would you even say I’d deleted your comment? You never saw the comment published. The comment box says comments will be moderated by the blog author. Do you not understand comment moderation?
Frankly, I don’t give a hoot about how you take my suggestions. Of course, it would be nice if you took them seriously. But rejecting them outright says a whole lot more about you than me.
Liar, liar pants on fire. Guess I’m really getting your goat.
Boy, you’re losin’ me here, Dave. You wrote that I accused you of “corruption.” I responded that I never used the word and didn’t believe you were “corrupt.” So what do I have to apologize for? Should I apologize for saying a word you thought I said but didn’t?
And let’s look a little closer on your incomplete reference to the dictionary definition of “corruption.” I’m reading from the same link you provided:
We’ll leave aside the first line since you haven’t accused me (yet) of saying you’re immoral and perverted. You’ve already noted the word “dishonest” in the second line. But wonder of wonders, you’ve left out that little word “venal.” It means “on the take,” “stealing,” etc. Why did you leave the last word out? It WAS inconvenient for you wasn’t it? By the way, the same site also adds these definitions: “use of a position of trust for dishonest gain; inducement (as of a public official) by improper means (as bribery) to violate duty (as by commiting a felony).” These are the most common usages of the word “corrupt” and the reason I did NOT say you were.
As for ‘dishonesty.’ I didn’t use that word either. Gee, Dave, you’re really striking out on this front. Perhaps time to change arguments? The reason I didn’t use that word is that it’s probably too strong for what you did. You created a blog contest that, at least in a number of major categories, reflects the views of your fellow right-wing blogging friends at Pajamas Media. You may not have even done this consciously (or perhaps you did). That’s not dishonest. Your title isn’t even dishonest. It’s just misleading. It’s narrow-minded. It’s insular. A lot of bad things, but probably not dishonest. Care to attribute another word to me which I never wrote?
Actually, the word dishonest was used by you and your friends about a dozen times directed at me in the comments. But I’m not complaining too much. I can give as good as I get in a debate.
Oops, sorry Dave…I wrote this entire comment and now come to see that you don’t want me lecturing you on misusing words. Guess I’ll have to go and delete this so as not to further offend you.
Richard, if only eh?
It’s laughable that you claim Richard is trying to bully you Aussie Dave, he’s just one blog pointing at what he believes is a major problem with the JIBA’s. How’s that bullying? So I’d lay of the lecturing about misusing words! You’re hardly one to speak…..considering the title of your ‘competition’ is hardly a shining example of accuracy.
So what if you never actually used the words “corrupt” or “dishonest.” You are arguing semantics, yet you clearly suggested it here with this statement:
““But seriously, one of the main reasons Charles gets nominated is that he in turn invited Aussie Dave to join him in Pajamas Media (see the latter’s profile). So it’s only natural that Dave would return the favor.”
So don’t insult the intelligence of everyone reading your diatribes and backtrack on the allegation. It is for all to see.
As for the comment moderation, I still believe you deleted my comment, and only put it back up after I mentioned it. I say this because after I posted the comment, it was on your site for a while. And THEN it disappeared. Comment moderating systems do not work this way. The comment would only appear for the first time after being accepted by the moderator. Furthermore, you have already indicated that you have little in terms of honesty or integrity.
You have NOT ONCE addressed the point that no blog has ever been excluded on the basis of political orientation, and that left blogs have been included. Nor the point that any blog can be nominated. Nominations on my site appear in the comments. The process is transparent, and anyone can see what blogs that were nominated have been excluded.
I am glad you admit that you are out to impugn my name and my blog. I will allow readers to decide what kind of person you really are, on the basis of your comments.
Mr. Siverstein wrote:
As for the notion that you are “liberal,” what a laugh. I consider myself liberal & I certainly wouldn’t want to be a member of any club you’re in. Unless there’s a breed of liberal that is chulish, mean-spirited and just plain nasty.
How sad Mr. Silverstein. Nice job on the Tikun Olam though. For a man as learned as you claim you are, you ought to know that the term “liberal” is not a monolith. Liberalism contains many variants. Whatever strain of liberalism it is that you adhere to, it is one I doubt I’d have any interest in. I’m thinking Finkelstein and Chomsky – not people I particularly like or respect, but you are of course free to start a little gardening club with them if you like. That of course does not change the fact that I am indeed liberal. You can laugh that off all you like but really, you haven’t demonstrated that i am not liberal.
Bottom line? I am no big fan of sites like LGF. I am a liberal. The site I am a member of, Jewlicious, will compete vigorously against LGF and similar sites.
Despite that, I think your accusations about the JIBs are misplaced, mean spirited and simply wrong for reasons already amply outlined in the comments section of your site. Vaja con dios Mr. Silverstein!
Again, betraying your ignorance of a political term to which you claim to adhere. Chomsky and Finkelstein “liberal???” Yikes, they’d scream a fit if you tried calling them that in their presence. They detest “liberals.” You can call them a lot of things. But if you care about accuracy (which I have my doubts about), you’d know better.
And no, I don’t adhere to either’s views on the Mideast. Both are non-Zionists (anti-Zionists, whatever term you wish to use). Though I value their analysis of events as shedding light on the inequities of the current system. I don’t embrace it, but I value it. I hope you grasp the distinction. In fact, both of them would prob. deplore my own views on the conflict as being hopelessly favorable to Israel.
Why don’t you reel off your views about various aspects of the I-P conflict & we’ll get a chance to examine the question? Where do you stand on the Occupation? End it now? End it later? Where do you stand on the Fence & the notion of ‘separation?’ Where do you stand on settlements? Keep them? Withdraw from them? All of them? Some of them? Where do you stand on extrajudicial assassinations? Where do you stand on the role of Hamas in upcoming Palestinian elections? How do you view the role of Israeli Arabs in Israeli society? Which party do you support in the upcoming Israeli elections? That’s a good start & will give us a chance to examine your claim with more specificity.
That is possibly the only statement you’ve ever made here which I agree with (though I’d put my feelings quite a bit stronger on the subject).
Interesting how when you debate the meanings of words they’re life and death issues & misuse of one violates your integrity and good name. But when I discuss the same subject it’s merely ‘semantics.’ Got news for ya, ‘semantics’ as you call them are very important. What does a word mean? What does a person’s statement mean? How do I understand the use and meaning of this word? Pretty significant stuff.
You mean: “it is for me to see.” You see, I don’t see it nor would any “reasonable layperson” to use JIBA’s terms.
God, you do go on so insufferably. Your comment sat in my moderation queue till I approved it for publication. I can’t know what you saw or didn’t see. Call me a liar. I really don’t care.
Yesterday, I noted that you & your friends called me dishonest a dozen times. Make that a dozen plus one. Doesn’t it get tiresome to lob the same feeble hand grenades time after time & never hit your target?
Dave, either you haven’t been reading what I wrote or you conveniently missed it. In both my posts and these comments, I’ve said many more than once that yes, no blog has been excluded (you see Dave, I believe you when you say that–too bad you can’t grant me the same courtesy). But that’s merely because JIBA’s marketing through blogs like yours and J. Post don’t reach the types of Jewish and Israeli blogs, bloggers, and their readers who you might feel compelled to disqualify if they were nominated. As someone commented in a thread at Jewschool–the reach of JIBA & the Post is to the 10% of world Jewry who adhere to its political viewpoint. I haven’t done a poll but I’d say that’s about right. So let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and say that JIBA & the Post reach 20-30% of world Jewry and Jewish bloggers. I’ll go even further, what if you reach 50% (which is a WILD stretch)? What about the rest?
I’m about to publish a post here listing the Jewish/Israeli blogs I think should be nominated in a true & fair competition that wished to be reflective of the broad range of Jewish opinion. You might want to look at them to see just how far afield they are from your own little world. I think some of them wouldn’t make the Dave-cut. Maybe I’m wrong. In which case, I’d give you credit for being far more open-minded than you’ve demonstrated here.
As for “left” blogs being included. Sure, there are roughly two, perhaps three in the two categories I mentioned. Out of how many? I’m guessing the ideological slant is 95% conservative to 5% liberal/left. So you want credit because you’ve “allowed” a few extremists into JIBA? BTW, that’s roughly the same balance between progressive & conservative bloggers in Pajamas Media. You guys really do revel in overwhelming numbers don’t you?
I thought better of what I originally wrote about impugning your name. I don’t know what impugning someone’s name means. I don’t mean to impugn your name. I don’t know you other than through what you write. But if that’s what you think–hey, go for it. As for your blog, I did impugn it in my post on Pajamas Media. So I’ll accept that though I really don’t care much about your blog one way or the other. As for JIBA, that’s a different story. You’re expanding your reach beyond your blog & attempting to sell it to the Jewish world under the guise of “we reflect Jewish and Israeli blogs.” I’ll impugn that claim any day as long as JIBA doesn’t change.
This really has been swell, Dave. But now I must go. As you’ve promised earlier you were “done” with me and my blog, I’m going to hold you to it. No more comments on these three JIBA threads. We’ve just about exhausted everything there is to say to each other and are now repeating ourselves ad nauseum. I’m closing up shop as far as you’re concerned. Feel free to comment on future posts if you choose or not. But our discourse here is ended. And if you still have urge to argue with me, please do it at your own blog & not here.
Mr. Siversten wrote (italicized):
Why don’t you reel off your views about various aspects of the I-P conflict & we’ll get a chance to examine the question?
Fine. I’ll humor you. However one’s views on the “I-P conflict” are not the sole determinants of one’s Libralism. Furtheermore, being a Liberal doess not mean that you must imperil your life.
Where do you stand on the Occupation? End it now? End it later?
End it as soon as it’s feasible. I supported the disengagement from Gaza and I believe that any further disengagements need to be done in the context of a negotiated settlement with duly elected Palestinian representatives willing and able to live in peace with Israel. Absent the existence of a negotiating party, Israel would do well to once again unilaterally disengage from whatever areas they can until such time as an effective negotiated settlement can be made.
Where do you stand on the Fence & the notion of ’separation?’
I hate the fence and ideally it would not exist. However, to whatever extent it protects Israeli civilians from snipers and terrorist attacks, I reluctantly support its existence (since I and my loved ones are Israeli civilians). Said support is bolstered by the fact that the fence is subject to judicial review by the Israel Supreme Court whenever a case can be made that its path causes unddue hardship to Palestinians.
Where do you stand on settlements? Keep them? Withdraw from them? All of them? Some of them?
Given that places like Ramot and French Hill can be considered settlements I believe we keep some and withdraw from others.
Where do you stand on extrajudicial assassinations?
I believe we are in a state of war with Palestinian terrorists. Thus the term “extrajudicial assasination” is a bit of a misnomer. In a war, enemy combatants are not tried in a court of law prior to being attacked. Anyone who seeks to perpetrate terrorist acts against innocent civilians knows the rules of the game. If you seek to kill children you can no longer expect the protection of International law. Having said that, I look forward to the day where any kind of violence is a thing of the past.
Where do you stand on the role of Hamas in upcoming Palestinian elections?
I don’t like Hamas. But it’s not my job to tell Palestinians who they can and cannot vote for. As far as I am concerned, other than theological issues, there is little difference between Fatah and Hamas – except for the fact that the PA is a kleptocracy and Hamas seems to be less corrupt.
How do you view the role of Israeli Arabs in Israeli society?
Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens and ought to be subject to the same rights and obligations as any other citizens. I have no issue with them and believe that we need to do everything possible to make sure that no inequalities exist between any citizens.
Which party do you support in the upcoming Israeli elections?
I dunno really. I’ll let you know once campaigning here goes into full swing and I know more about the platforms.
I am talking “liberal” or progressive or whatever you want to call it in an ISRAELI context.
That’s interesting. We actually share some views in common. My main quarrel with the views you expressed lies in these areas:
I’m in favor of immediate withdrawal from the Territories or at least a negotiated withdrawal on an expedited basis (something like what Peretz has been advocating–or at least was advocating till his handlers seem to have shut him up). I’m favor of withdrawing from all settlements except possibly the Kiryat Arba area. I am unalterably opposed to the Fence. There is absolutely no reason why it couldn’t run precisely on the Green Line. That it doesn’t points to Israel’s unwillingness to limit its territorial appetite by appropriating Palestinian lands where it can. I utterly reject your approach to extrajudicial assassination. It brings Israel into absolute disagrace in the world community. And it often involves taking innocent Palestinian lives as ‘collateral damage.’ Not only that, but eventually (& I welcome that day) Israeli officials who plan & execute such killings will face a court of justice. I hope it will be an Israeli court (which has so far refused to touch the case). If not, an international court will do. I also believe that Palestinian killers will be similarly called to account for their crimes. And as Dylan once sang: “I hope it comes soon.” Your last statement about the election comes across as a cop out. But it’s your election & your vote to do with as you see fit.
“And it often involves taking innocent Palestinian lives as ‘collateral damage.’ ”
Funny that you care more about Palestinians who are ACCIDENTALLY killed when Israel is trying to eliminate terrorists than about Israelis who are INTENTIONALLY killed when Palestinian terrorists INTENTIONALLY try to kill us.
Of course no one WANTS to kill innocent Palestinians. But if you had to worry about a suicide bomber every time you went into a mall or pizzeria, you’d appreciate the efforts the IDF makes to keep us safe. Very easy to sit on your butt over there and make judgement calls.
Ever hear the expression “war is hell”- well, it’s true. Sometimes civilians are killed during war. If the Palestinian terrorists were not trying to blow us off the map, then not even one Palestinian civilian would be ACCIDENTALLY killed.
“Doesn’t it get tiresome to lob the same feeble hand grenades time after time & never hit your target?”
Yes, Richard, doesn’t it?????
Geez Mr. Silverstein, you’re harsh! Reserving my judgement on who I am going to vote for is a cop out? I’d like to make an informed decision if you don’t mind. Or does taking my vote seriously not pass your litmus test??
Your coment on Jesus’ General site stated that I am in full support of extrajudicial assasination. I stated that your term is a misnomer. And it is – extrajudicial means “Outside of the authority of a court” or “Outside of the usual judicial proceedings.” In the case of a war or a conflict, combatants do not benefit from judicial review. If you are a combatant intent on causing harm to enemy combatants or civilians, you are a legitimate target. I do not like collateral casualties but terrorists who operate amongst civilians need to accept part of that responsibility as well. I remain confident that Israeli forces do their best to limit collateral dammage when taking out a terrorist. But i digress. I disagree with your terminology. Of course i am vehemently opposed to extrajudicial assassination. I just don’t think that’s what’s going on. And by the way, were it not for the fact that I am a vegetarian, I may have been at the shwarma place today in Tel Aviv when it was attacked by one of Islamic Jihad’s finest. I passed the place twice today.
As far as the Green Line goes – it does not represent the final border between Israel and “Palestine.” Read SC resolution 242. To talk about territorial appetite after the withdrawal from Sinai and Gaza demonstrates a bit of a bias on your part and a refusal to accept reality when it doesn’t correspond to your notion of what evil Zionists are all about. Anyhow I am glad that you are so concerned about Israel’s international image. I am glad that you feel comfortable being cavalier about Defense issues. Clearly, you didn’t almost get blown up by a suicide bomber today. Sitting in the relative comfort of Seattle, puttering around your lovely garden, playing with Jonah and the twins, what would you know about suicide bombers who don’t give a rat’s ass about your age, status or politics. What would you know about the notion that where you go to eat lunch could be a life or death decision? Thankfully, this is not part of your daily routine. Yet you begrudge us the right to defend ourselves. Nice Mr. Silverstein. Very nice.
CRAP! What do you know about this blog? Have you bothered to do a search here for what I’ve written about Palestinian terror? No, you haven’t. If you had bothered to spend 5 minutes doing that you’d have found multiple references & entire posts deploring it, deploring Palestinian suicide bombing, expressing condolence to Israeli victims. But the difference between you and me is that I honor the Midrash which recounts that God was deeply angry at His angels who rejoiced at the death of the Egyptians pursuing the Children of Israel into the Red Sea. He says to them: “Hush, my children [the Egyptians] are drowning and you rejoice?? You in turn spurn such human feeling for YOUR enemy.
And you know what’s in the mind of Israeli intelligence officers who execute such attacks how?? When you do intelligence/surveillance work on a potential target you scope out who’s on the premises. You monitor comings and goings. I’m virtually certain they knew they would kill innocents in advance and they decided to do so anyway. They wanted the “kill” more than they cared about the consequences for innocents.
I do & yet again have said so several times in this blog. Legitimate efforts at self-defense (that is LEGAL under Israeli AND international law) are perfectly valid. You find a bomber wearing a belt, kill them if you have to. You develop evidence that someone is planning an attack you capture them & bring them to justice. But you don’t drop a 2,000 bomb levelling an apartment house filled with 18 innocent Palestinians including women & children in order to kill a single terrorist (which happened), no matter how dastardly. And if you decide to do so anyway, you assure that you will at some point in the future face the bar of justice, either Israeli or international. I know how you right-wingers hate the concept of international justice since you’re sure it’s simply a mouthpiece for anti-Israel propaganda. But I welcome international justice. A Spanish judge first brought Augusto Pinochet to the bar of justice and now Chile itself is trying him. THe same will occur to those Israeli officers (& Palestinian militants) with innocent blood on their hands.
Well, in that case let’s assume the Palestinians terrorists say the same thing. They’re engaged in war against Israel. I admit that their targets are generally far more indiscriminate than Israel’s. But why can’t an Islamic Jihad bomber say the same thing to justify his killings of Israeli innocents?
This is Israeli policy & your justification for it. This is not international law. In fact, Israel in this & other important ways is in flagrant conflict with international law. You might say you don’t give two hankies about that. But an Israeli general came within a hair’s breath of being detained in England several months ago for planning & executing the assassination of the Palestinian militant, Shehadeh, an incident which led to the killings of 18 innocent Palestinians. This case has also been brought before the Israel Supreme Court which has used every possible stratagem to duck it. Perhaps once an Israeli is apprehended (as happened to Pinochet) & charged with war crimes then Israeli justice will realize it has to confront this issue head on.
Palestinian militants do accept the imminent possibility of their own deaths at Israel’s hands. But they do so in the faith that many others will rise to take their place. I’m not glorifying this fact. I wish no Palestinian would take the place of any suicide bomber. But the fact remains that extrajudicial assassination has very little impact other than killing a single man. No doubt, you’ll attempt to argue that this technique has worked because terror is down. To which I’d reply that terror is down because Hamas is, perhaps temporarily, suspending offensive action against Israel. Islamic Jihad has not done so & has had success in perpetrating such crimes (viz. today’s attack)–despite Israel’s best efforts to wipe out their operatives. Such Israeli quasi-terror is palliative at best.
Israel takes it upon itself to be judge, jury and executioner. That’s pretty much the dictionary definition of extrajudicial assassination.
I’ve been responding to comments here in my free time and not had a chance to see the news. I’m very sorry to hear of this attack. Though it is little consolation to the injured, some of whom I’m sure grievously so, I’m glad to hear that only the suicide bomber died.
I’m not interested in getting into a debate about what UN resolutions say or mean. The Green Line IS the internationally recognized border. Even in the period following the 1967 border, Israel recognized it as such. Subsequent governments decided that it didn’t mean what it meant and decided to create their own “facts on the ground.” I find it interesting that someone who calls himself “liberal” on the I-P conflict refuses to recognize the Green Line as Israel’s international border.
Not at all, if my view be “biased” I am pleased to say this “bias” is shared with many within Israel too and not the wild-eyed radicals you enjoy so much poking snarky fun at. I just read this powerful denunciation of Israel’s insatiable appetite for Palestinian land (referring to the most recent Hebron settler melee) by an Israeli satirist in the pages of Ynet of all places:
CAVALIER?!! You call me cavalier? How dare you. I’m sorry, but you’ve made me very angry. Do you call caring enough about Israel and Israelis to want to see an end of horrible bloodshed CAVALIER?! This is life and death stuff. I know that. You know that. But don’t dare assume that I say the things I say without taking very seriously the consequences of saying them.
You see what I object to so strongly in your point of view and others who say similar things (oh so many have made this accusation against me before) is that only YOUR perspective shows proper love and respect for Israel’s interests. No one who isn’t sitting at that cafe about to get blown up can have enough proper perspective and judgment to appreciate the cauldron you live in. Only Israelis have the right to say what Israel should do. I reject this categorically. I am a Jew. I am a member of Klal Yisrael no less than you. Israel is a reflection on me as a Jew. I feel an obligation to make my voice heard on issues I care deeply about as a Jew & this is one of them, whether you welcome it or not.
I’ve lived in Israel two years. I have close family and friends living there. I’ve made numerous trips & staffed UJA missions there. But that’s all besides the point. Most of all, I care. I care in my way and if you don’t like it or don’t think it’s “good enough,” that’s your own look-out. Not mine.
As for my home, garden & children…did you ever stop to think that it is precisely because I cherish these things so much in my own life that I wish them for all Israelis (& Palestinians for that matter)? It is because those things are dear to me that I deplore this tragic bloodshed. If I did not have such things then perhaps I would be more glib in speaking about the I-P conflict. But I assure you I am in deadly earnest & understand what’s at stake for both sides.
Wrong again. I don’t begrudge Israel the right to defend itself. I support the IDF’s struggle to protect Israel and Israelis. After all, the Six Day War is what first motivated me to care about Israel. But there are ways in which a nation can defend and hold its head high as a nation and there are ways that lead a nation to become a pariah among nations. What good is a nation’s freedoms and liberties if it has forfeited it’s right to a seat at the table of nations? Lest you find these views so wild-eyed & radical as to be beyond the pale, you should reread your Ahad Ha-Am. He said virtually the same things over 100 years ago.
“CRAP! What do you know about this blog?”
Only what I’ve read in your posts and comments stemming from your tired tirade against the Jewish blog awards- but it was more than enough. And like most of the traffic you got thanks to that tirade, I came, I saw, and I won’t be coming back. Try not to miss me too much.
“But why can’t an Islamic Jihad bomber say the same thing to justify his killings of Israeli innocents?”
If you believe that a terrorist and a terrorist HUNTER are morally equivalent, please resign from the Jewish race- we don’t need your kind.
You surely would have won one of those awards had you been nominated. “Best Example of a Blog Whose Title Bears No Resemblance to its Contents” would have been all yours.
You really need to calm down. Yoga would do wonders for your high blood pressure.
I was really getting excited until I noticed that not five minutes went by before you left another set of droppings in my comments section. But anyway my reaction to your statement above: “good riddance to bad rubbish.”
Now that’s funny. I’ll miss you as much as I miss the runs.
I will on one condition–that you join me with your own resignation first. I’d be resigning as a service to my “race” because your loss from the ranks would greatly improve the quality of our genetic pool.
I have some advice for you too, but unlike you I do have some standards and won’t provide it here.