16 thoughts on “Israel Never Spies on the U.S…except when it’s caught red-handed – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. It is, as they say, a shonda that those guys passed on information to Israel, and I in no way condone what they did. However, it strikes me as a bit naive to come down so hard on Israel, et al because of this when in fact all countries do this, friends included. Do you doubt that the US does not keep tabs and spy on Israel? I am at this instance reminded of the Liberty ship that got hit by Israel,inadvertently, during the ’67 war. What kind of ship was that? ILt was a hi tech filled spy ship monitoring what was going on.

    It is one thing to correctly condemn spies and/or Israel for bad actions but another to concdemn over and over all things that Israel does. There are sufficient anti-Israel and anti-Jewish web sites that do this sort of thing. And they make it clear which side they are on.

    I too am angered by the spy incident. But having had a bit of experience in a minor way with military intelligence I dismiss this sort of thing as all in the game, for which, if you would like some good background, get hold of the just published book
    reviewed at http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18001
    My best,
    fred L

  2. Thanks for yr. comments, Fred.

    Yes, I agree. Everybody spies. But if the U.S. spies on Israel (& I concede it probably does or at least tries to) why hasn’t it been caught doing so (as Israel has been several times now in the past 15-20 yrs)? The answer–because the U.S. is probaby much more discrete (& possibly more competent), careful & cautious than the Israelis. The latter go at everything they do–whether its repressing the Palestinians or spying on the U.S. hammer & tongs, devil take the hindmost.

    The Liberty was not hit inadvertently, Fred. It was a deliberate attack. Now as to why Israel attacked it with such deadly force, I have no idea. It’s the Israeli government position that it was attacked inadvertently. But we can see in this AIPAC spying case how credible Israeli protestations of innocence are.

    I do not condemn “all things that Israel does.” I only condemn those things Israel does wrong. We had a couple of prophets in the Bible you may recall who tried to do the same, so it’s an honored role in Jewish tradition (though some supporters of Israel would claim we are being traitorous to our people & religion–a preposterous attitude).

    It’s fine & good to say “it’s all in the game” and “come on now, everybody’s doing it,” but real people & real organizations have been permanently tarnished if not discredited by this. Though I detest what AIPAC does & how it does it–this incident has permanently damaged both the group, its staff & its lobbying efforts here in the U.S. Didn’t Israel think of that potential outcome when it got into this misadventure??

  3. Mr Siverstein, you are quite misinformed about the nature of the “anti-Semitic, Holocaust- denial website” to which you refer in your preamble. Please take some time to browse the site in question; you will find it to be related in no way to the description you have provided. If you are unwilling or unable to browse the site, please instead provide evidence to back up your claims regarding the site’s contents.

  4. Yeah, you poor guys. My heart will bleed then, when you are all gone. Right now it just weeps from what you have done to us. Like we don’t know? Right. It becomes clearer by the day, by the hour and minute.

    You don’t believe Israel has done USA wrong? Heh heh, sure, but it works here–our media is owned by you, our gvt. is controlled by you, and come next pogram, you will be the poor fuckin’ victims AGAIN unless you drown us in your mud and appocalyps (sp?) first. Yeah, join with the christians, you idiots–it may win you 50 years before the planet explodes from our own american sick fucks and Likudnik neocon christofascists. Good luck.

    So sad.

    ******************************************

    [Tikun Olam replies: Don’t you just love the smell of anti-Semitism in the morning (to misquote Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now)? And smell surely this comment does. One thing my readers should note is that each of the anti-Semitic comments left here (three others follow this one) was left by the same person using different names & e mail addresses, but the same IP. I’ve been able to determine using Whois that he lives in Portland, OR and Qwest is his ISP. Now he’s banned so hopefully this site will return to some level of normality.

    I have different approaches to hate-filled comments like this one. But usually I let all the hatred, bile & filth remain on my site because I want people who might read it to understand how much hate there is in the world; and how dangerous & virulent these haters can be.

    This moron for one hasn’t even bothered to read my post in which I say that Israel & AIPAC’s actions in this matter elicit the comment: “For shame!” Does that sound like I “don’t believe Israel has done USA wrong?” Can’t you read!?

    And again, anti-Semites don’t seem to be able to spell (or think or read, but those are topics for another day): it’s apocalypse, not “appocalyps (sp?).” At least “Zack” (surely not his real name or e mail address) admits he’s spelled it wrong. The first sign of overcoming addiction is admitting you have a problem. Good going, “Zack.” Now, maybe you can work on admitting all your other intellectual (such as it is) faults.]

  5. That’s right, remember, only 144,000 will be converted–the rest of you will die the fiery death come the rapture. Only if you find Jesus and accept Him as your Lord and Savior will you be saved.

    Why do you cater to these guys? You’re not christian… Is it all for MONEY? WOW, man, I’m impressed–

    –as, I am sure, are all the US congresscritters that accept AIPAC’s money–yeah, they’ll disagree with me.

    SUGESSTION–BUTT THE HELL OUT OF OUR POLITICS, ’cause you know, won’t be long (might already be there) until we are the new Nazis–of course, we must be more brutal than Israelis to achieve that, but still, considering….–could happen………..

    **********************************

    [Tikun Olam replies: Amazing the ferocity of afearedyank in the midst of the cloak of anonymity that the internet can provide. I bet if you met him on the street he wouldn’t appear the “muscle man” he wants us to believe him to be.

    Can’t figure out where this guy is coming from. First, he wants us to believe he’s a Christian anti-Semite. Then he loses that identity to reveal himself to be a neo-Nazi. Zieg Heil, buddy!]

  6. Nah, they will kill us first–Israel is their cash-cow. We send it to them in aid, they send it back to our legislators as campaign contributions. The contributees slam queers and women and vote to send more aid to Israel, and the xtian nuts say they will go to hell unless they convert, but gay marriage will destroy us. Hmmmmmm. Gay marriage. Nevermind the man-whores in the white house (gannon/guckert–jimmy-jeff), the anti-abortion guy with the mule girlfriend; or the anti-gay queer mayor of Spokane WA)

    LIBRULS ARE EEEEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.

    Spare me the hypocracy.

    **************************************

    [Tikun Olam replies: Hard to count the types of hate in this comment. Anti-Semitic? Without doubt. Anti-Chrisitian? Sure. Anti-gay? But of course. Liberals (read Jews)? Yeah, that too.

    It must be comforting to have so many different groups on which you can spew bile; and on which you can lay so many of the faults of the world. Without ever of course coming seriously to terms with any of them.]

  7. Hello Richard,

    I guess you’re inured to the idiocy spewed by too many on topics on which they are clearly clueless, and so they toss in a spate of garbage to cover their ignorance. Of course, they’re like children that think because they have their eyes covered, no one can see them. Our pathetic educational system and it’s handmaiden the media have certainly lowered the common denominator.

    As for Israeli spying, well this is to be understood in the context of the dependent stepchild who has been set up as a forward base at the doorstep of ALL THAT OIL. It is not a result of the loss of Jewish lives at the hands of the Nazi regime that Israel was formed, but as a result of the mighty lesson learned regarding the cruciality of oil to the projection of power.

    I grow very tired of hearing about the “holocaust” as though those Jewish lives were any different that the twenty-five million Soviets who perished. At least they died defending themselves and doing us all a favor by trouncing the Nazis. It is this very conceit — that Jews are somehow more important that anyone else — that has caused members of your faith so much misery through the centuries. The maniacal belief in the chosen-ness of the Jews is the root cause of the misery that has been laid upon them.

    And, just as a point of history. Most of today’s Jewery are not related by genes to the original Hebrew tribe. Virtually all of European and Russian Jewery are descended from the Khazars, a Turkish tribe who ruled Ukraine from 600 CE to 850 or so. Their aristocracy adopted Judism by default…they didn’t want to challenge Rome or Constantinople by turning Christian, or Baghdad by going Muslim. As their power waned, they drifted into central Europe and Russia. This was all demonstrated originally by DNA testing.

    None of this is to demean anything Jewish, as Christians are lost in the fog of their own specialness, as are members of most belief systems. Religion was invented to control people under the guise of morality. It has proved most flexible in reshaping itself to the changing demands of an evolving world. However, stealing land and murdering children does not speak well for Zion. Our Earth Mother has a long memory, and she particularly despises bullies.

    Cheerio,
    filboy

    ********************************

    [Tikun Olam replies: I never before have inserted my own comments into the comment of another visitor to this blog. I think reasonable peoples’ comments should stand on their own & not be interfered with or even edited. But all this civility goes out the window when I read the kind of crap spewed in the comment section for this post. That’s why I’ve decided to invade the hater’s comment “space.” I don’t want to take the chance that any of my visitors will not read a separate comment that I might write here rebutting their rants.

    Interesting that this person takes on four different personna in writing these four comments all of which are no doubt fraudulent. And within this comment he apologizes for the bile in a separate comment–which he himself wrote! Perhaps we’re seeing the Four Faces of Filboy?!

    I originally had a point by point rebuttal of Filboy’s filth here, but I think his words hang him pretty well and people can see pretty clearly that this anti-Semitic emporer has no clothes.

  8. The are many reasons for the outrage at Israeli spying.

    I think first and foremost is that the US gives Israel so much money. We expect better treatment from a country that we virtually prop up and support economically and politically (in the UN). And now militarily with the War in Iraq.

    Second, Israel is a very unusual state in that it is a “religious state”. Unusual at least from a modern western perspective.

    By being a religious state, and by have many people of the same religion in the US as well as other countries, there is always this background issue of dual loyalty.

    Now, the vast majority of non-Israeli Jews are loyal to their home country. The vast majority. But, we have seen that a small, but very determined, minority are willing to bend the rules, or worse, for the benefit of Israel.

    There is a long history of Jewish spys in the US, going all the way back to WWII, although then they were spying for Russia, not Israel.

    With a lot of documentation out there showing the neocons wanted to change the regime in Iraq years before 9/11, along with the highly politicized WMD intelligence coming from the office of special plans, staffed mostly by pro-Israeli Jews, the sensitivity towards this latest spy scandal is justified, to say the least.

    Americans don’t want to have to lose lives, money or good will for any religious fanatics, including Jewish ones.

  9. DaveG: God, I thought I was never going to see a level headed comment in the thread again! Thanks for your comment. I certainly agree with much of your comment. But I diverge a bit on a few points.

    First, the dual loyalty stuff is bogus and unworthy of you. Dual loyalty is a myth created to disparage American Jews. Are there Jews who have spied against the U.S.? Sure. Are there many? NO. And are there not other ethnic groups some of whose members have spied against us? Sure. The Chinese come to mind though I’m sure there are many others. Do I doubt the loyalty of all Chinese-Americans because of a few spies in their midst? Of course not.

    This is precisely the reason why what Israel did is so pernicious. It is so self-centered that in its egomania it believes that damaging the reputation of all American Jews (as was surely done in this case) is more than justified by whatever benefit might inure to Israel from the spying. How cynical, hypocritical & downright morally bankrupt of them!

  10. Mr Silverstein (apologies for originally misspelling your name), I see you have modified your description of the website mentioned in your preamble from “anti-Semitic, Holocaust- denial website” to “harshly anti-Zionist website with some anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denial overtones”.

    I would to a degree agree with the first part of your new characterization – the website is indeed anti-Zionist, though not, in my opinion, harshly so; I believe the apalling behaviour of the Israeli government – past and present – is a powerful endorsement of the anti-Zionist stance the website takes.

    I am not sure what to make of your characterization of the website as having “anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denial overtones”. Could you please define what you mean by “overtones”, and provide specific examples of such from the website in question?

    For my own part, never in my two years of reading the website have I encountered any anti-Semitic or Holocaust-denying rhetoric on the part of the website’s author. The author *has* on a number of occasions openly criticised academia’s and the media’s extraordinary unwillingness to re-examine even in principle any of the events that took place during the Holocaust, and has objected strongly to government legislation preventing the same (“Truth needs no laws to support it” is how he expresses his feelings on this matter) but he has never claimed that millions of Jews were not murdered and horrifically abused by Nazi Germany, nor that Jews have historically suffered greatly at the hands of Gentiles, nor has he ever denied nor denigrated the significant intellectual and cultural contributions Jews have made to the human experience.

    I also take issue with the following statement you make in your reply to filboy’s comments on your article. You state: “And anyone who claims: “I grow tired of hearing about the “holocaust…” is surely one of that unfortunately thriving breed called Holocaust-denier”. There is a significant and real difference between one who claims fatigue and one who denies.

    I wish you the very best. Sincerely, Medbh Clay.

  11. The end of the second last paragraph should read: “but he has never claimed that millions of Jews were not murdered and horrifically abused by Nazi Germany, nor that Jews *haven’t* historically suffered greatly at the hands of Gentiles, nor has he ever denied nor denigrated the significant intellectual and cultural contributions Jews have made to the human experience.”

  12. Mebh: Yesterday night, this was the first item displayed at the site:

    Enough with the Holocaust

    Whoever is writing on WWII must desperately wish readers to be aware that the most pain experienced in that war was experienced by the 6 million Jews in German prison camps. There are no other groups that are so strongly focused on in your newspaper.
    Would it be too much to ask that you make an excellent move on your part by giving the rest of us a regular reminder from time to time about the other close to 60 million who were killed and/or incarcerated in WWII?

    Posted May 11, 2005 08:05 PM PST
    Category: CURRENT EVENTS

    Note the usual whining follow-up.

    This site cites this letter approvingly & notes that those who disagree with its perspective are “whiners.” Of course, those whiners would mostly be Jews & sympathizers who disagree categorically with its viewpoint.

    The notion that Jewish suffering in the Holocaust was “garden variety” suffering compared to the suffering of others or no worse than the suffering of others is the kernel of Holocaust denial. It may not be full-fledged denial. But it’s what I called a “Holocaust–yes, but” mentality. Neither I nor almost any other Jew would deny the suffering of others during the Holocaust. But genocide, the attempt to exterminate a race or religious group merely for who they are–this is not in the same category as the deaths of others during WWII. Were more Russians killed during that war? Yes. But genocide is sui generis in terms of human suffering. The world has recognized this concept in the Nuremburg trials & subsequent trials of SS officers, concentration camp commandants, etc. In addition, half of the entire Jewish race was wiped out in the Holocaust. I don’t know of any other people who lost such a large proportion of their population in that horrible time.

    Unfortunately, you didn’t read my reply to Filboy’s comment here. Filboy & all the other abusive commenters here are one & the same person (posting using the same IP address). And in his 4 comments here (attempting to assume four equally fraudulent identities) he more than proves that he is an anti-Semite, Holocaust denier & anti-Zionist. What’s more, he came to this site from the aforementioned site. That doesn’t mean that he & the site are one & the same. But it does give you some idea of the beliefs of the people who frequent the site.

    Finally, I too am critical of the policies of the state of Israel. I don’t approve of its policies toward the Palestinians one bit. But as I said in my note, I am a critical Zionist. One who believes that Israel can & will eventually live up to the moral principles on which it was founded. I imagine you don’t believe that. But it’s what I believe.

  13. Mr Silverstein,

    Filboy’s attempt at deception is very disappointing; he seems more interested in drowning the contrary viewpoint than engaging in reasoned debate. This approach is destructive and aggravating and accomplishes nothing positive.

    I can’t be certain that filboy is representative of the readership of whatreallyhappened.com, but I suspect that he is not – every cart has its bad apples. I can say with confidence that he does not share the intellectual rigor of Mike Rivero, the website’s author. Rivero can be quite cynical in his approach, and is not shy about expressing his anger and frustrations, but he is a critical thinker, and it is his abhorrence of human ugliness, cruelty, greed and corruption that informs his sometimes abrasive commentaries.

    I would hazard that the “whining follow-up” remark reflects Rivero’s disgust with the dismissive nature of the reply that the article “Enough with the Holocaust” prompted; the person replying – Tannie – made no attempt to engage with or debate the issues raised by Carol Rae Bradford, the author of the article, instead Tannie resorted to sarcasm and misrepresentation.

    Finally, you state “I am a critical Zionist. One who believes that Israel can & will eventually live up to the moral principles on which it was founded. I imagine you don’t believe that.” I may not, at present, share this belief, but I would celebrate its realisation.

    Best wishes,

    Medbh Clay

  14. Concerning the “Liberty” incident, nobody seems to ask the logical question:

    What was a US spy ship, without any flag, doing next to the Israeli shores during a war???

    Why did the US Embassy deny, when asked, that it was one of their ships?

    What would have happened if, during WW2, a ship, without any flags, would have been spoted next to the American coastline?

    Once you consider the answers, the fate of Liberty was benign.
    The US Navy would have sunk the ship and killed all AT ONCE, no question asked!

  15. The Israelis knew what the Liberty was even w/o its flags flying. They knew it wasn’t their ship. So what other country would have a ship off the Egyptian coastline bristling with antennae & spy communications gear that would’ve surely been visible to the naked Israeli pilot’s eye?

    The Israelis did not want the U.S. spying on them plain & simple. That’s why they attacked the Liberty. So if the U.S. were to follow Israel’s example, instead of merely ejecting Gilon fr. the country we should’ve killed or maimed him as the Israelis did to the U.S. personnel on the Liberty. Is that Dr. Jack’s position?

    But really, who the hell cares about this subject??

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