42 thoughts on “Makhoul Sentenced to 9 Years, Israeli Democracy Dies Yet Another Death – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. despite your notion that the Israeli court system is nothing but a rubber stamp to the “security apparatus” the truth is a bit different.
    in 1981 Izat Nafso (hope that is the right spelling of his name) a Tscherkessen who served in the IDF was sentenced for 18 years in prison for espionage by a military court.
    in may 24 1987, he was acquitted by the Israeli supreme court from the espionage charges and was charged with acting outside the realm of his position and was released Immediately.

    in 1989 he was awarded millions in a settlement he reached with the state of israel.
    http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA_%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%96%D7%90%D7%AA_%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%95

    You can scream injustice all you want, Makhoul can do the same, the simple reality is that he can appeal to the supreme court, and if the court would find any merit to his claim he will be released. Makhoul chooses not to do so, and as you correctly stated admitted to the allegations. only Makhoul and his lawyer know why.

    1. Makhoul’s attorney was talking about Israeli Palestinian detainees, not a Tscherkessen IDF officer. You’re mixing apples & oranges.

      only Makhoul and his lawyer know why.

      That’s nonsense. I explained in very clear language why he copped a plea. The fact that you choose to deny it simply reveals who ignorant you are of what life is like for 20% of yr fellow citizens. Wake up & smell the Arab coffee.

      1. So you are saying that there is one set of rules for Israli-Arabs and there is another other minorities (which you referred to as Palestinians) such as the Bedoin, the Druz and the Tscherkessen ?
        and you are trying to say that Israli-Arabs are treated worse then Palestinians who are governed by military laws, you are saying actually that there is more justice in the military system then in the civil system ?
        because if you are saying all that, then maybe we should implement military law inside Israel to ?
        with all seriousness, Makhoul lawyer sounds like Aaron Fagan who was convicted in sexual harassment and found guilty and then complained that they jury was racist.
        http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/w0005683.html
        Makhoul has the opportunity to appeal to the supreme court, a place at which many NGO’s (including arab ones) won their cases. he chooses not because he knows something you and I do not.

        1. Yes, of course there is. Would you not concede that an Israeli Palestinian who never served in the IDF and who has views inimical (in Shabak’s eyes) to Israel would be treated more harshly than a non-Palestinian IDF officer? Of course the latter would be treated better.

          you are trying to say that Israli-Arabs are treated worse then Palestinians who are governed by military laws

          I have no idea what this statement means or where you derive it fr. anything I’ve said. If you’re asking whether I think a military court might treat an IDF officer better than a civilian court (actually hardly civilian since the judges are largely IDF former prosecutors & run their courts when dealing with security issues in ways not dissimilar to military justice) would treat an Israeli Palestinian security detainee suspected of betraying his country on behalf of an Arab enemy? The answer is “Sure.”

          But when a military court deals w. a Palestinian security detainee the treatment would probably in most cases be the same as a civilian court dealing w. an Israeli Palestinian security detainee.

          maybe we should implement military law inside Israel to ?

          Well, if the Shabak had it’s way it would probably like that. I note also that this is precisely the situation that held for all Israeli Palestinian citizens until 1966.

          Makhoul lawyer sounds like Aaron Fagan

          I find this statement offensive. If you ever are accused of a crime remind me & I’ll do you the favor of publicly slandering yr lawyer & then see how you feel about it.

          Makhoul does not have the opportunity to appeal to the Supreme Court because he pled guilty. He did so because he faced a life sentence. Don’t be both a pig & pig-headed. Show a little rachmonis or is that prohibited for an Israeli Jew like you to feel for an innocent man who will be spending the next 9 yrs in prison apart fr. his loved ones for no reason other than the caprice of the secret police. If you were going to prison for 9 yrs, I don’t care on what charge, I would express considerably more sympathy for you than you seem to be able to manage for Makhoul.

          1. “But when a military court deals w. a Palestinian security detainee the treatment would probably in most cases be the same as a civilian court dealing w. an Israeli Palestinian security detainee.”

            so how do you explain the fact that a Palestinian policeman was acquitted from murdering the Israeli solider during the 2000 lynch ? if you are right and the israeli court system is no more then a rubber stamp, why go to the length of looking at the evidence, and acquit the guy ? much easier (since he was at the seen and admitted to parts of it) to find him guilty. the only explanation is that court system is not a rubber stamp.

            “Makhoul does not have the opportunity to appeal to the Supreme Court because he pled guilty” i am no lawyer but i believe that you are wrong. based on the napso case who admitted as well, we know that even though admitted one can file a case with the supreme court. so i believe you are wrong. as for his lawyer i have no idea why you are offended, the lawyer (3 of them) could have convinced him not to plead guilty and advised him not to. your reasoning doesn’t make sense because a lawyer must advise his clients based on facts, facts which you and I don’t have. for them to advise their customer in a given way and then to cry about it, isn’t acting very professional.

          2. the lawyer (3 of them) could have convinced him not to plead guilty and advised him not to.

            What, are you a knucklehead or just plain dense??? I’ve asked you unsuccessfully to put yrself in the shoes of Makhoul & his attorney. You obviously can’t do so. A failure of imagination common to many Israeli Jews. You’re charged with espionage & face a life sentence & your lawyer tells you he knows of no similar case in which a victim such as yrself has ever been acquitted. And in all seriousness you’re telling us you’d go for it & Makhoul too should go for it, take a shot, turn the deal down, go to a certain life sentence, just for the sake of being able to say he never broke & upheld his principle all the way to the grave?? Is that what you’re really trying to tell us is reasonable? And w. a straight face? Please, spare us. Don’t waste your time. You’re only fooling yrself. I find yr logic not just wanting, but preposterous & offensive. You lack even basic humanity. And certainly empathy. If you have children & a family I hope you show a little more sensitivity to them. But at least they’re Jewish & yr own flesh & blood. Not like Makhoul.

          3. Richard,
            I’ve put myself in Makhoul’s shoes, even his lawyer shoes.
            simple reality is that if I were to be his lawyer i would appear in front if the court and i would say that i believe that this court is a racist court, that will not give my client a chance for a fair trail because israel is a racist state.
            if he would have done that his lawyer and makhoul himself will be granted my respect and support.
            but his lawyers, 2 of them working for adallah (the NGO) and the third being avigdor feldman, knows that such a statement will be untrue(based on their own experience in filling suite in the name of the NGO to the supreme court) and that’s the only reason they didn’t make such a statement. to appear after the trail ended and claim that, that isn’t being very professional.
            just FYI Makhoul was convicted in claws 114, 92, 99, 112(a), 113 (b) of the penal code.
            http://cafe.themarker.com/post/1890915/

            92 – conspiracy
            99 – Assisting an enemy in a time of war
            112 – Espionage , Severe Espionage
            113 – Delivering Secret Information
            114 – Contact with an agent of a foreign country

            http://www.nevo.co.il/law_html/law01/073_002.htm#Seif107

            and you can claim all you want and you can scream all you want that we are a racist society, please provide evidence that Makhoul didn’t do what he confessed of doing.
            i will file a suite against the state of israel myself. the truth is other then attacking me for being dense or the society for being racist, you can’t really come with anything to assist Makhoul.

  2. Richard. You provide no proof other than your own prejudice as to why Makhoul is innocent. Your main argument is that Israel is a racist country, and therefore Makhoul must be innocent. The Israeli court system has proven itself to be impartial and independent, and I tend to trust its decisions.

    Is it so unreasonable to assume that some Arab-Israelis are indeed collaborating with Hezbollah against Israel? The opposite phenomenon – of Palestinians spying for Israel certainly exists.

    BTW, Palestinians who are found guilty of collaborating with Israel face the death penalty in Gaza, and subject to life-threatning violence in the west bank.

    1. Unlike you, I know what Shabak is. The secret information I report on this blog is directly fr. the cells of the Shabak (or at least those who know what’s going on inside them). I’d say my sources are far more knowledgeable that you are. Was it prejudice that claimed Anat Kamm had been disappeared into the maws of the Shabak? Or was that the truth? Was it prejudice that claimed Captain George was running the Jerusalem Police liaison for E. Jerusalem & that his name is Doron Zahavi? Was it prejudice that correctly reported the racist rants of another E. Jerusalem police office, Meir Rotter? Or was that too the truth? I guess prejudice is in the eyes of the beholder.

      Prejudiced? You bet I am. And don’t anyone ever quote the previous two sentences without including the next one. “Prejudiced” against injustice, racism, war crimes, violations of human rights. And I’m prejudiced against these things whether the victims are Israelis or Palestinians.

      My argument isn’t that “Israel” is a racist country. That’s far too broad. My argument is that the secret police are racist and a danger to Israeli democracy. Yes, most Israelis too have racist attitudes as proven by Israeli polls published by Israeli NGOs in Israeli newspapers. So the claims about racism are ones made and confirmed by Israeli sources, which I echo.

      The Israeli court system, as proven by studies reported in your own Israeli newspapers confirm that the courts are a rubber stamp for the security apparatus. For every instance in which you can find a ruling or decision that favored the victims (& there would be very very few) I can find 100 or 1,000 that went the other way. And this isn’t because Shabak is so good it never brings cases against the innocent. When it comes to Palestinian security detainees the court system is anything but impartial & independent. Do you find it credible that an Israeli Palestinian community activist would know where Yuval Diskin lives and the arrangements of the security details of Ehud Barak and Bibi? I have better sources than Ameer Makhoul and even I don’t know these things. As I said, these charges are the fever dream of Israel’s J. Edgar Diskin. Without foundation or credibility.

      Is it so unreasonable to assume that some Arab-Israelis are indeed collaborating with Hezbollah against Israel?

      If it happens then do what a real democracy does under the rule of law: try them, bring evidence that is fully available to the defense & prosecution, allow the defense full consultation w. attorneys w/o wiretapping conversations, desist fr torturing victim-defendants, & reveal as much of it as possible to the public to allow everyone to judge. Do that and you have a right to say a convicted defendant is truly guilty. Do less and you don’t.

      Palestinians who are found guilty of collaborating with Israel face the death penalty in Gaza

      And this justifies what? Justifies torture? Kangaroo courts? Guilt before trial. Are you seriously arguing that any deficiencies in Palestinian justice justify deficiencies in Israeli justice? You want to be judged by Palestinian standards or those of western democracies? If the latter you have a considerable way to go.

  3. What are the acts that Makhoul is charged with committing?

    Richard noted one: that Hezbollah supposedly asked Makhoul to track the movements of the head of one of Israel’s security groups. To an American, that sounds bizarre…inherently preposterous.

    Were there other acts in the charges?

    1. Yes, that he used various forms of digital technology to communicate encoded messages to Hezbollah, that he met with a Hezbollah agent in Jordan, etc. It’s all in my previous posts. Do a search on “Hassan Jaja.”

  4. Your conclusions are very wrong here.
    It is true that it is very hard to be released after the Israel justice system locks it’s jaws around you. The convicted rate is way too high. However this happen to everybody, it does not matter if you are a Jew, a Druze, a Muslim Arab or Christian Arab.
    The thing is, most of the convicted ones, even if they confessed at some point or another, by the time they got to court, plea no guilty and complain that the confession was extracted out of them by force and unethical behavior (to say the least). That apply to the example provided above, that apply to a jew called Amos Baranes, who fought for 20 years for his innocence and this also apply to Roman Zadorov, who was just convicted as the killed of a school girl called Tair Rada.
    In the case of Mahul, I just don’t see it.
    I truely don’t know how guilty he is, but I cannot be convinced of his inoccence.

    1. However this happen to everybody

      Yes, I agree w. you to a pt. But the stats are far worse for Palestinian security suspects. They have NO CHANCE. None. At least a non Palestinian, non security suspect has half a chance perhaps.

      I truely don’t know how guilty he is, but I cannot be convinced of his inoccence.

      Now that’s an interesting set of logical steps. YOu have no idea whether he’s guilty. You’ve heard no evidence other than the unsubstantiated charges of Shabak as echoed by the rubber stamp judge & you’re convinced of his guilt. Based on what? Again, what evidence? Not claims or charges by unnamed Shabak goons, but actual evidence? That’s how justice is supposed to work. You hear evidence. YOu decide guilt or innocence. What evidence did you hear?

  5. Here’s the gist of Richard’s article:

    I Know I’m right on this one.

    The shabak is always wrong even if they’re right.

    There’s no way any Palestinian Israeli could possibly support Hizbollah against Israel because they love Israel so much.

    Any Palestinian Arab who is found guilty, even if he admits guilt, is always innocent because no one is ever aquitted in Israeli courts.

    All confessions obtained by the shabak are never true because no one tells the truth under investigation by the shabak.

    The shabak has an interest in putting innocent people in prison and letting the real criminals stay at large.

    Any argument that anyone tries to bring that may in anyway imply that Makhoul is guilty of anything is a priori false.

    The gist of my reply is:

    If the evidence proves it, and the accused admits it, then he’s guilty as charged even if he’s a nice guy and done good things in the past.

    1. I know far more about this case than you ever will. So yes, I’m convinced based on my research that I am right, just as I’ve been right about almost every similar case I’ve reported fr. inside Israel.

      Now I want to be clear with you since you tend to bend the comment rules in ways not to my liking. DO NOT put words in my mouth. DO NOT ascribe positions to me I haven’t stated myself. Do not bend, fold, spindle or mutilate my views to suit yr own prejudices. I never said there can never be any Palestinian who would spy against Israel. How could I make such a statement? But I DID say that Shabak never conclusively, satisfactorily or in judicial-legal proves its security cases involving Palestinian Israelis.

      Any Palestinian Arab who is found guilty, even if he admits guilt, is always innocent because no one is ever aquitted in Israeli courts.

      I didn’t say this either, but I would agree that this, at least, is much more likely than the first distortion you attempted to pin on me. I never said “no one” is ever acquitted in Israeli courts. I reported that Ameer Makhoul’s attorney, who has far more experience in this field than you or I, knows of no Israeli Palestinian security victim who has been acquitted. You (I think it was you) made one failed attempt to find one. Try again, see if you can come up w. one.

      All confessions obtained by the shabak are never true because no one tells the truth under investigation by the shabak.

      Again, I would tend to agree with this as well with the proviso that no “confessions” obtained under torture as in the case of almost all Palestinian Israeli security suspects is valid, persuasive or probitive. And it is a shandeh that Israeli justice appears to take no account of this. You’ll note that the judge in this case (& you, as a sometimes military judge, attempted to persuade us that all Israeli judges were so careful, fair, & concerned w. the upholding the dignity of Israeli justice & the rights of the accused) ignored the claim of torture. Simply ignored it as if it hadn’t even been introduced.

      The shabak has an interest in putting innocent people in prison

      No, another distortion. Shabak is in the business of railroading Israeli Palestinian leaders considered uppity & threats to Israel’s Jewish supremacy. Any such Palestinian nail will be hammered down mercilessly by the security goons. And yes, most or all of such cases are brought against individuals who would never be charged let alone convicted in any real democracy.

      Any argument that anyone tries to bring that may in anyway imply that Makhoul is guilty of anything is a priori false.

      Well, I’m still waiting for an argument that presents real facts or evidence that prove his guilt. Not secondary or inferred arguments, but ones that adduce guilt by proof. I’ve done far more than Shabak & published here the actual details of what Makhoul did & where & with whom. I know what I know. Now it’s up to the State to provide evidence of such a man’s guilt. And I still await it.

      There is no evidence in this case as far as you or I know.

      He’s not a nice guy whatever that means. He’s a martyr & your justice system in which you operate as a williing cog made him so. Mazel tov. You’ve made another martyr. Be proud.

        1. @ Ronen
          you are such an idiot it’s unbelievable
          either you can debate with Richard or you can’t.
          there is no room for such a low personal attack. especially when you know nothing of Richard.
          Sure Richard opinions makes you upset (some of them makes me furious), in some of them he’s right in some of them he’s wrong, just like many others.
          but what is your justification to coming into someones house and being so rude ?

          1. I don’t think you’re an idiot, even though you may consider me one.

            I’ve been following Richard for a while and it’s clear to me that the man is delusional. He attributes crazy fantasies against Israel, while totally ignoring its environment. This is the symptomatic behavior of many anti-Zionist, almost anti-Jewish activists.

            While I appreciate your willingness to rationally debate Richard, I consider him a collaborator with those who seek to destroy Israel by stripping away its very legitimacy as a state. Such a man is certainly no friend of mine, and I have no qualms about personally attacking my enemies.

          2. Ronen,
            1. I do not think that Richard is an anti-zionist he just correlates a different of Zionism. i’m sure you heard about Magnes and others who preached for the exact same things, way before richard was even born. The debate on the future of Zionisim should be open and free and accommodate all opinions.
            2. I wouldn’t say his delusional, He’s an american with different view of the world then you have. the World view of some of the Americans is very simple, and often they do not alter their views to changing circumstances, some of what they say is valid, and some is a very nice dream.
            3. Give me a brake, the legitimacy of the state of Israel, isn’t depended on what richard may or may not write. it’s solely depended upon the way we will act as ben-gurion stated it doesn’t matter what others may say, what matters is what we will do.
            4. By behaving the way you behaved, you actually justified every claim that Richard makes about the Israeli society. i think you are missing the point.
            5. Anyone who turns a debate (including me) into a personal matter (which means he lost is temper) is an idiot. and yes i admit (Deir Yassin this is for you) that i have done that here on these pages.
            6. you were still rude, and i think that you publicly owe Richard an apology, and just to clear things out, i never met the guy, i never talked to him on the phone. I am friendly with him (and trying to be toward anyone). on some things we agree, on some things we don’t. when i don’t agree with him i publicly letting him know that.

          3. Ilan, I appreciate the good work you’re doing, even if our views differ. I’m guessing you’re a math, physics or CS student. It’s also possible you’re still in highschool 🙂

            I have some experience, both professional and personal in dealing with the radical left and its influences. Israel came to exist because the world enabled it to exist. It can similarly cease to exist if the world ceases to acknowledge us as a legitimate state. This is what members of the radical are actively pursuing – the divestment and marginalization of Israel. In my line of work I see the effects of the BDS project quite directly, and in my humble opinion – it poses a true risk to the continued existence of Israel.

            This debate is indeed a personal matter for me, as it is for Silverstein. This does not make me an idiot, but rather aware of my own emotions and sentiment towards those who wish me ill.

            Anyway, Ilan. Kol hakavod.

          4. Ronen,
            1. I graduated high school in June 1987.
            2. I studied math & physics for my BSc, and Performance Analysis for my MSc
            3. The idiot part was because you were letting your emotions show (i have done so as well as i stated)
            4. Richard oppose BDS at this point.
            5. You were Rude, as simple as that. and that pulls the validity carpet under any argument you may or may not have.
            6. the only way to debate Richard and others is with facts.
            7. You still owe Richard an apology you were out of line

          5. Thanks for this. Unfortunately, as this was Ronen’s second comment rule violation & both comments were particularly nasty violations, he’s lost his commenting privileges. As you say, I’m willing to grapple with & argue about the issues. But for someone to attempt to score points based on calling me an “old man” is just too stupid to have to deal with. Besides, others have already done this so many times before, it’s just too old & too boring. What these morons don’t realize is that anything insulting they want to say has already been said or written before by some other previous moron. There’s little new under the sun for these idiots to say.

          6. @ IlanP)
            (Jan 31/ 12:18 PM)
            “6: The only way to debate Richard and others is with fact”
            Come on, that must be a joke.

    2. “If the evidence proves it, and the accused admits it, then he’s guilty as charged even if he’s a nice guy and done good things in the past.”

      Looking back at the 20th century, this naive trust into procedures that have the outer form of a legal trial is just ridiculous.

      1. This is not “naive trust” that is “ridiculous”, I don’t know to what you are looking for back in the 20th century, but I was only refering to the Israeli courts to which I have first hand knowledge.

        Their have been miscarriages of justice as in any human justice system, and have been cases where it has been subsequently proven that a confession was illegally procured, but no one can force someone to plead guilty in the courtroom where there is no duress and it is publically covered by the press.
        If you plead guilty, even as part of a plea bargain then there is no smoke without fire. A real innocent person will never willingly go to prison in a plea bargain but will fight for the truth. And in any case why would the State give up on a life sentence for Makhoul if it had firm evidence to convict him?
        I would say that as usual the State got down from its high horse of high treason at wartime, and in exactly in the same fashion, Makhoul got off his high horse of “absolute innocence – and the result is before you.

        I very much respect Avigdor Feldman who assisted in representing Makhoul and firmly believe that he would never countenance allowing his client to plead guilty in a plea bargain if he believed him to be innocent – lawyers do have some integrity, especially Avigdor Feldman.

        If I believed as some of you here do, that Makhoul should not be imprisoned but was only fighting for human rights, then I would stick to the argument that he did what he admitted to, and that in your opinion these acts should not be criminal and that they are draconian laws, rather than misrepresent the court system in its method of judging criminal acts.

        1. Their have been miscarriages of justice as in any human justice system

          Wrong. Your “line” is that while Israel isn’t perfect it’s no worse than any other reasonable western justice system. As I said, wrong. Israeli justice doesn’t even work well for Israeli Jews, but for Israeli Palestinian security victims it hardly works at all. The entire system is rotten fr. top to bottom. It’s a system designed either consciously or unconsciously to attain a result on behalf of the State. And it works well in that sense. This isn’t a situation involving a miscarriage here or there. It’s an entire system that doesn’t accord with comparable western systems of jurisprudence in these particular sets of security cases.

          no one can force someone to plead guilty in the courtroom where there is no duress

          Pls. pay attention to earlier parts of this & related threads in which either you or IlanP have made similar contentions which I’ve rebutted. Of course there is duress in the courtroom. The prospect of certain guilt & something close to a life sentence being imposed is duress that in effect compels a victim to plead guilty. This is duress. Plain & simple. It doesn’t fit yr definition of the term because you accept the premises of this legal system of dealing with security cases. No reasonable jurist or observer outside Israel would & many inside Israel don’t as well.

          If you plead guilty, even as part of a plea bargain then there is no smoke without fire.

          Yes, there is. There is the smoke & fire of the Shabak’s torture techniques compelling a confession, then the smoke & fire of a certain guilty verdict. That’s the smoke & fire. The guilty plea is a total sham & you know as well as I this wouldn’t be recognized as acceptable in any other western courtroom or legal system. And if you believe differently I urge you to join an international professional association of jurists & present at a conference an entire Israeli Palestinian security case as a example of how Israel deals with these matters. Then have the foreign jurists discuss what you presented. If you did so dispassionately I imagine what you’d hear from yr colleagues would make you sit up & take notice.

          A real innocent person will never willingly go to prison in a plea bargain but will fight for the truth.

          Now, I’m getting angry. This is precisely the same argument already offered by IlanP & you’re wasting my time & everyone elses. Don’t parachute into threads w/o reading other people’s comments. Of course an innocent man would plead guilty. It happens all the time even in better legal systems than Israel’s. If you faced a certain guilty verdict & life in prison & had 2 teenage daughters & a wife & knew scores of your fellow Israeli Jews who faced virtually the same charges & all pled guilty, you’d do so too. And if you argue differently you’re either lying to yrself or behaving as a prima donna with no concept of reality the way Israeli Palestinian security victims live it. It’s so easy for a military judge to sit on high & spout nonsense liberalisms as you do. But you have no clue. Why don’t you spent a few hours instead of on the judge’s podium above the action, go into the cells & talk to the prisoners, talk to the defense lawyers. Find out what really goes on. Stop talking to yr colleagues telling you how fair & decent they are, & spend some time viewing the overall system & the way it works (or doesn’t) for the state & against the victims.

          why would the State give up on a life sentence for Makhoul if it had firm evidence to convict him?

          First, because it DOESN’T have the evidence to convict him. Second, because judges, prosecutors & Shabak agents have hundreds of cases & seek, as all prosecutors do, to plead out as many cases as they can. Third, because it’s so much easier for everyone on the State’s side to get a deal in which the victim pleads guilty rather than going to trial & spending weeks or months. All they need is admission of guilt. It’s just as good as a life sentence. You don’t seem to understand, this is wholesale justice like a meat market or assembly line. Get the victims in & out as quickly as possible so we can go on to the next set of victims.

          firmly believe that he would never countenance allowing his client to plead guilty in a plea bargain if he believed him to be innocent

          Nonsense. You don’t know Avigdor Feldman. You don’t know what his motivations were in this case. You’re in Israel. Why don’t you ask him yrself instead of pontificating in a wholly unconvincing way about what he may or may not done or said or believed. If you believe that lawyers always behave in the way you claim again you simply haven’t been a defense attorney in a security case. Why don’t you again get down off that high horse & do a pro bono case for a Palestinian victim & see things fr. the other side. When you do that & come back here & tell us you have then you’ll have credibility here. Until then, sorry.

          I would stick to the argument that he did what he admitted to, and that in your opinion these acts should not be criminal and that they are draconian laws, rather than misrepresent the court system in its method of judging criminal acts.

          I have very little interest in yr advice on how we should present Makhoul’s case. I would concede that Makhoul met w. Jaja in Jordan. And I would submit that merely meeting with Jaja was criminal in Shabak’s eyes even though Jaja has no known or proven connection to Hezbollah. Shabak labels a foreign Arab a Hezbollah or Hamas agent & that person ipso facto becomes one as if by magic. The mere fact of talking to this man outside Israel (& not even WHAT they talked about) was a criminal act. That’s absurd on Israel’s part. So I’ll continue arguing that the case, the charges, the premise of the charges, & everything about this case stinks to high heaven as does the security system & supporting legal processes which brought this result.

          1. Richard,
            I would like you to take a good look at paragraph 7 at the indictment.
            Your entire argument and philosophy is based upon the role that Hassan Jaja played within Hezbollah. Your argument as i understand it is that since he was an environmentalist and him and Makhool spoke about roses.
            however the indictment list specifically that Makhoul left to Europe and met with others which the indictment doesn’t name. JaJa’s Role was very limited, as in making the initial contact between two people he knew.

          2. There you go…you yrself said Makhoul met with “others the indictment doesn’t name.” Do you understand how insane that is? You threaten a guy w. life in prison for meeting with individuals which the prosecution won’t even name let alone produce for cross examination? The mind boggles at the very absurdity of it all.

            But thanks for pointing me to the European mtgs. I hadn’t heard about them. I’ll now try to find out more about this.

  6. I got into my hands the indictment og another Israeli Arab named Kashkoush. He studied in Germany and met there with Hizbolla operators and got money for this. The way his dids were described did not leave any doubt that the Shabak knew everything about this person. E mail were quoted dates and places in Germany. I must say that on one hand I believe that the state of Israel is looking very closely on what Israeli Arabs do.A lot of wrong and injustice is done and I am ashamed for it.Innocent people are killed and the state is in a process of turning into an Apartheid state. Kashkoush was a spy. a small one but he got money for information. he was sentenced to 4 years. I am sure that the 5 years difference is due to the sheer vindictiveness of the state.

  7. It’s maddening to read the comments on this article.
    IlanP, free man, I think you’re both Israeli spies and should be sentenced to life in prison, care to prove your innocence?

    How can anyone take this seriously when all evidence is completely secret? How many times can the state send the security lies down our throats and have everyone believe them?
    I really feel sorry for his wife and children (I’ve seen her anger and despair on video before the sentence so I can’t imagine what she might be feeling now). I for one will never believe anything my country or the “IDF” claim without showing public evidence. The past has tought me enough lessons on that subject.

    May we all see the rotten israeli regime collapse in time to let Makhoul go free.

    1. Read carefully what I’ve written. You will see there that I say that had I been accused to be a spy, there would have been almost no chance of me getting away from that.
      What I claimed was that it make no (or almost no) matter if I’m a Jew or an Arab.
      I gave several examples of different people that were convicted, while they were innocent or I think they are and there is a big question mark on about their sentence.
      I also wrote that there was a fundamental difference between their behavior and Mahul’s. That does not mark him as guilty, but does not support strongly his innocence.

    2. Tal,
      have you seen the indictment against Makhoul ? it is available on the internet (use google) apparently the Shabak has been monitoring his electronics / communications data usage, got a hold of his old hard drive, the whole 9 yards.
      the indictment is based on actual facts not on guesses.
      Richard has a copy of the indictment, ask him to send you a copy, or give me your email address and i will do so myself.

      Makhoul admitted everything, which makes the state need to discuss the evidence in court obsolete.

      1. Why don’t you post it somewhere for all to see then?
        Google docs? pastebin? there are enough options out there.
        In any case if the indictment claims doesn’t have actual evidence to support it I don’t see what difference does it make? Especially after the Shabak “investigation” methods were revealed on many instances (see Haim Perlman’s case for ex.). Don’t forget that 99% of the cases that go to court in Israel are ended up with a guilty verdict.

        1. http://www.magazin.org.il/inner.asp?page=23&article=1705

          The indictment does not have actual evidence. but reading it it is clear that the Shabak was watching Makhoul for quite some time. they know all of his moves.
          the data you provided about indictment in israel is irrelevant unless:
          1. You will provide the data pretaining to how many investigation result in indicment
          2. You will provide comparison to other place in the world, from Iran to the USA.

        2. As you say, they are claims with no evidence attached. I’ve explained to IlanP in an e mail that claims are not evidence & secret police can claim all they want but it’s not the same as providing evidence. Let’s hear even a summary of an incriminating conversation. Do they offer that? No. They expect everyone to believe that because they wiretapped 30,000 conversations and claim he did or said this or that that this is proof of guilt. But it ain’t. A charge sheet is not a conviction. That’s what IlanP has offered us, not the smoking gun.

          1. You mean they didn’t show that to you.
            and excuse me nut i don’t think you can speak for his lawyers.
            to the best of my knowledge, they had to show that to the court, and to the defense attorneys.
            here is a list of his defense attorneys please contact them and ask them weather or not they have seen the evidence. i assume they did and so did Makhoul.
            עו”ד ארנה כהן – עדאלה: 052-3206653
            עו”ד חוסין אבו חוסין: 054-5428860
            עו”ד חסן ג’בארין – מנכ”ל עדאלה: 052-3228901
            עו”ד עביר בכר – עדאלה: 050-2035502 abeer@adalah.org
            גב’ גבי רובין, רכזת תקשורת בינלאומית: 052-8332430 gaby@adalah.org

          2. to the best of my knowledge, they had to show that to the court, and to the defense attorneys.

            No, they don’t have to show the evidence to the defense. There are instances in which they claim secrecy and do not share such evidence & the judges often permit this.

          3. Richard: “No, they don’t have to show the evidence to the defense. There are instances in which they claim secrecy and do not share such evidence & the judges often permit this.”

            For the sake of being precise, evidence not presented to the defence will not be presented to the judges either, except at the remand stage. There is absolutely no precedent in either military or Israeli courts for ex parte evidence being allowed in proving a case. If there is evidence concerning the methods that the shabak uses it may be prevented by a “teudat hisayon” (translates roughly: secrecy order) which prevents the defence seeing this evidence – this evidence will never be presented to the judges either! The problem with this is that the defence may wish to see this evidence in order to prove thet the confessions may have been illegally procured.

            Another point – if Makhoul admitted guilt then the courts will not be presented with any evidence at all, incriminating or otherwise as there is no need to prove anything. The judges will only see the facts as presented on the charge sheet and nothing else whatsoever.

            But after all the legalistic “pilpul” on this blog – the only real question that matters is did Makhoul ever claim to be innocent in any statement he gave or in any of the hearings. Did he actually claim to have had his “confession” taken by illegal means? Did he at any stage state his claims before the court, or only in the press?
            Or, Richard, is this only your theory, that you wish to be true, in order to defend someone you respect greatly, but sadly is not supported by actual statements made by Makhoul in court.

          4. if Makhoul admitted guilt then the courts will not be presented with any evidence at all, incriminating or otherwise as there is no need to prove anything. The judges will only see the facts as presented on the charge sheet and nothing else whatsoever.

            And this is precisely the true & profound perniciousness of this system. The Shabak holds a stone over the victim’s head & tells him if he doesn’t plead guilt he’ll go away for life. The defendant knows that all similar cases to his have ended in guilt, so he does the math & realizes he can’t afford to go the distance. He pleads out, Shabak doesn’t have to put on its shoddy case which nevertheless would’ve ended in a guilty verdict. It stinks to high heaven.

            the only real question that matters is did Makhoul ever claim to be innocent in any statement he gave or in any of the hearings. Did he actually claim to have had his “confession” taken by illegal means?

            He certainly proclaimed his innocence as did his family in the only venue that was fair & open & that was outside the courtroom. The Israeli legal system regarding Palestinian secuirty detainees is a farce. I don’t know what he said inside the courtroom. Doubtless the court itself & Shabak doesn’t want us to know. But you’re an Israeli lawyer/judge. You go & find out & let us know. You have far more internal resources to do this than we do here. Stop complaining about what I write here & answer yr own questions by getting off yr tush & doing something.

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