30 thoughts on “Liberal Zionism and the Two-State Delusion – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. An immediate two state solution is not realistic. A one state solution that absorbs Gaza is less so. Westerners seek quick fixes that too often ignore stages of development. East Germany was absorbed by West Germany. There were and still difficulties; however both previous states are better as one. If Jerusalem can be successfully absorbed as a Jewish, Muslim, Christian , democratically run city than the possibility exists for an expanded multireligious Israel. This will take time, patience, many failures, generations of effort and for many God’s help. All but the last in short supply

    1. @ GOrdon Glaser:

      This will take time, patience

      There is neither time nor patience. Palestinians have been waiting for justice and their rights for 70 years. It is well past time. You may have time. But luckily you don’t make decisions on behalf of Palestinians.

      1. [comment deleted: I already strongly advised you to read the comment rules. The comment threads are not the place to debate ancient history. If that’s your thing, find another place to do it.

      2. “…But luckily you don’t make decisions on behalf of Palestinians…”

        More luckily, Richard, is that you don’t make decisions on behalf of us! Hopefully your idea of “another Lebanon” will not happen and instead a two state solution will materialize in spite of our messianic zealot hooligans.
        Please post a thumb down emoji if I’m sentenced to “no more posts in this thread”

        1. @ Eli Gal:

          Hopefully your idea of “another Lebanon” will not happen and instead a two state solution will materialize

          There is no reason a single state would be like Lebanon. Lebanon is a dysfunctional sectarian marginally democratic country. Israel could very easily be a full-fledged decmocracy, if Israeli Jews accepted it and didn’t become white Afrikaners trying to desperately cling to the vestiges of apartheid.

          As for 2 states “hopefully materializing”: “hopefully” I will become the King of Siam, win the Boston Marathon and bring world peace. For anyone to believe any of these is delusional.

          1. sad to read you and toto dont wanna be in kansas anymore
            richard you know by now that religion and democracy are opposed poles never to meet, ergo since israel embedded the litzmans smotriches and deri never such a thing as a 2 anything will come to pass

  2. “That approach, a single state comprising both Israel and Palestine, is derided as unachievable because the Israeli side “would never accept it.”

    The single State approach was tried and rejected by the Palestinians who didn’t want Jews returning to Zion.
    And BTW, in the 1930’s. British Courts decided lawsuits that adjudged Mandatory Palestine to be a State.


    1. @ Ben G:

      The single State approach was tried and rejected by the Palestinians who didn’t want Jews returning to Zion.

      That is a lie. There never was an attempt to create a single state. Ever. There was a UN partition plan dividing up the land into two separate entities.

      British Courts decided lawsuits that adjudged Mandatory Palestine to be a State.

      I’m supposed to care that a colonial power declared Palestine to be a state? Why? And what bearing does it have on anything?

      Stop dredging up meaningless historical footnotes. Nor do I have any interest in dredging up your past historical grievances. For every one you can dust off I can dust off ten. The entire effort is a waste of time.

      Do not post again in this thread.

  3. “But this is a fallacy based on a hypothetical future result which no one has even bothered to attempt.”

    ‘One State’ was unsuccessfully attempted in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Cyprus and Iraq and Rwanda.

    Succession movements from ‘One State’ were attempted, with bloody results, in Nigeria, Bosnia, the United States, Pakistan, etc.

    Don’t piss on my back and tell me it’s raining.

    Don’t even try.

    1. @ Ben G: What did or did not happen in other states has no bearing on what might or might not happen hypothetically in Israel-Palestine. Not to mention that Yugoslavia disintegrated because Serbs sought dominance and went to war against their neighbors. This is something like what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Czechosolovakia separated peacefully with the approval of both Czechs and Slovaks. Cyprus is only two separate entities because Turkey refuses to permit reunification. Again Turkish rejectionsim is quite reminiscent of Israeli rejectionism. Iraq is a single country incorporating three different religious sects and ethnic groups. It is not unsuccessful nor has it split into separate entities. Rwanda too is a single country incorporating two separate ethnic groups now. By your definition, Rwanda should be split up into two separate countries and it isn’t.

      I have no idea what secession movements have to do with the creation of a single democratic state in Israel-Palestine. Unless you want to claim that Israel would try to secede from Israel-Palestine.

      Don’t piss on my back and tell me it’s raining.

      The only one who is pissing here is you–on your own back. It’s anatomically difficult, but you’ve managed somehow.

      Do not post again in this thread.

  4. Thank you! Continually saying one is for “two state solution” when it has not been achievable has helped delay and ironically continues to support the present defacto impossibility of two states. Israel has been thoroughly disingenuous about this for a long time. In the meantime Israel has solidified to one state, apartheid. “One state” is not on the table. It produces even more fear. Right wingers maintain their power this way. Then they creep further towards one undivided state, apartheid,(wishing Palestinians will all leave). This is also ironic.
    A democratic one state Israel (Israel/Palestine)is not going happen either unless maybe we demand it, threaten.That would bring an uproar here and there. So we will not. We too are too divided.
    I resent sending aid to Israel to replenish the iron dome.That specifically helps occupation, destroying Palestinian life such as it is and their resistance and giving the Israeli public peace, which is all they want apparently.

    So saying “two states”(some Palestinians say this too) continues.The dog still hunts.Who believes this? But this gives people on the spot, politicians, an out. Sanders and AOC disappoint. They must know better. Merkel, also disappoints, should know better but seems too blinded by German guilt.

    1. “I resent sending aid to Israel to replenish the iron dome.”
      it must be obvious to you that the iron dome is completely defensive and does not penetrate the Hamas enclave. if there was not a ‘refill’ much more powerful weapons would be used to intrude on the Gazans resulting possibly in thousands of fatalities.

      1. A threat? You do not consider the repercussions to Israel. I am sick and tired of excuses. It is not obvious that the iron dome is defensive since it allows for quiet or a sense of protection in Israel while military occupation and suppression of resistance continues. Defensive, narrowly. How about giving Palestinians the dome for defense. Occupation 50 plus years now! Impunity. Gimme a break!!

      2. oh sure, come live in ashdod next to me, iron dome, what a joke, make work project good for naught.
        hey idea lets send f35s insteadh

  5. To borrow from the silver-tongued Greta Thunberg, the two-state solution is just a bunch of “blah, blah, blah”!

  6. The Palestinians could declare their own state in Gaza, which would probably give them the legitimacy of a state which they do not have at present.

    There would no reason for the major powers not to accept it then.

    1. sure lets shifts the territories palestinians to gaza, great melting pot
      gaza is an open sky jail, no ports of sorts no way in no way out,

  7. picky picly picky
    will never be , becaaaause
    israel’s money power will never relinquish power, further entrenched in above and under board agreements with arab money states.
    at best palestinians “may” become a state without territories. Israel “may’ concede additional economical power so as to raise the poverty level and so quench the desire of some while hypnotizing the lack of country.
    gaza will remain an open sky jail, and the west bank will be full of immense settlers fortified chalets built on judicially anointed stolen lands
    there is no institution in this globe that will force israel to concede zip.
    white house + congress + china hands off policy (israel bizniss talks) = marihuana dreams. sadly
    do you see hamas gas filled balloons against f35 , really
    what the hell does israel need f35s to fight ?????? palestinians throwing rocks.

    1. I would say the Israelis need the F35s to defend itself from attack, and not necessarily from Palestinians.

      and your line… ‘Israel’s money power’ sounds antisemitic to me.

      Given half a chance, I am certain a number of countries would attack the USA if it were to give up much of its military arsenal.

      Are you seriously suggesting a country should not build up a defence industry? Throughout history the right to land has been through conquest and not ‘indigenous rights’. A military is what ensures security.

      Sorry no cigar, buddy.

      1. @ Fake Arab:

        I would say the Israelis need the F35s to defend itself from attack

        It is laughable for you to claim that F-35s are “defensive” weapons. If Israel negotiated peace with its neighbors it wouldn’t need nuclear weapons or F 35s. As long as it continues to be an aggressive, war mnogering country it will need them. But not to defend itself. But rather to enforce its will and dominance in the region–in violation of international law.

        ‘Israel’s money power’ sounds antisemitic to me.

        You idiot. Nessim IS an Israeli.

        Are you seriously suggesting a country should not build up a defence industry?

        Israel does not have a defense industry. It has a war industry and is a garrison state in a state of perpetual war with its neighbors.

        Throughout history the right to land has been through conquest

        This isn’t the era of Alexander the Great and Arik Sharon was no Julius Caesar. This is the era of international law and the Geneva Conventions, when blatant land grabs are prohibited.

  8. there you go , today headline
    ‘Jews, Arabs must focus on common values to foster coexistence’ says Rabbi David Stavnot a word about arab land or country or respect, naaah, foster coexistence,
    yaahhh lets sell that to shas or litzman,
    let those respect the rest of us FIRST AND FOREMOST , OR EVEN DECLARE THE EXISTENCE OF ISRAEL.
    am done, going back to my helium world. long time broken hearted

  9. How can business and industry in the future One State successfully integrate Jews and Palestinians?

    Same question applies to the military.

    1. @ Cillian Keogh: Your question presumes that this has never happened before. Of course, it has. States through the ages have gone from civil war to [re]integrating former opposite sides into a single state. The US Civil War is a perfect example. The US today is a single integrated nation both in commerce and the military. But in 1860, the South sought to secede and create a separate nation. After the war, hostilities subsided and the two former enemies reconciled.

      There was a brutal English Civil War between monarchists and parliamentarians. Despite the slaughter and savagery on both sides, England today is a unified nation. South Africa fought its own version of a Civil War to overthrow apartheid with Blacks and whites engaged in armed conflict. Today, the two races co-exist in a democratic state in which Blacks are the majority and run the country.

  10. What you suggest is an experiment where Jews and Palestinians ate the lab rats.
    There is no comparison to anything else in history and going back to South Africa, where a minority ruled the majority, is not convincing.
    The history of the whole western culture is concentrated in that piece of land and in this fight. Which is why we see such a split between the muslim and Christian world on the subject.
    Making it into a KUMBAYA solution and saying hopefully it will be OK is not working and is not going to work.

    1. @ Arik:

      The history of the whole western culture is…

      Whenever I read such sweeping statements from people like you I know: 1. you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about; and 2. you’re dead wrong.

      There is no comparison to anything else in history,,,

      Another piece of vast overstatement. Of course there are numerous examples. South Africa is only one. I’ve offered many of them both in the post and in this comment thread.

      saying hopefully it will be OK

      There is only one reason it would not be OK. Because Israelis, who have been rejectionists for decades, would continue their desperate opposition through terror attacks, etc. But the majority of Israelis will, as the majority of Serbs did before them (Kosovo), resign themselves to losing their supremacy and learning to live with their fellow citizens peacefully.

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