Iran’s Defense Minister Denounces Israel’s Role in Asgari’s Suspected Death, IDF Warns of Iranian Revenge Attacks
The Kabuki-like drama of the suicide/murder of Iranian Revolutionary Guard general Ali Reza Asgari in Ayalon Prison continues to deepen. Today, Ynetnews reports that the IDF circulated an unprecedented warning letter to all reserve officers warning them that Iranian agents might take revenge on them inside Israel or abroad.
What’s astonishing about this is that until now Israelis could always count on being immune to retaliatory domestic terror attacks from foreign enemies like Syria, Iran, Hezbollah, etc. Israel was impregnable from that perspective. Palestinian terror attacks have of course happened. But they were indiscriminate, and except in very rare instances did not kill senior IDF officers or political leaders. But now even Israel is conceding that it is not as inviolate as it previously believed.
The rationale for the warning letter makes very little sense unless you read between the lines and know about my own reporting on Asgari’smurder . Here’s how Ynet portrays it:
Israel Defense Forces reserve officers are urged to take extra precautions following the assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists: A detailed letter was sent Wednesday to a series of reserve officers, instructing them how to conduct themselves in Israel and abroad.
The officers were asked to replace the supermarket they shop in frequently and to avoid travelling on regular routes. The procedures are aimed at thwarting an attempt by terrorist organizations to target these people, some of whom are still holding key roles in the military reserve force.
The letter, signed by Brigadier-General Kobi Barak, head of operations at the General Staff, explains that the increased fear stems from recent events, including the death of Iranian nuclear scientists in Tehran last month.
Barak also mentioned the February 2008 assassination of senior Hezbollah commander Imad Mugniyah in an explosion in Damascus, after which the Shiite group’s Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah vowed to avenge his death.
He noted that last month a pro-Palestinian organization published the personal details of some 200 officers and soldiers who took part in Operation Cast Lead, claiming that they were war criminals. Some of them even had threatening letters sent to their homes.
Brigadier-General Barak called on the officers to brief their family members on the situation and pay attention to any suspicion vehicles, unusual activity or unknown people wandering near their homes. The officers were also asked to “disrupt their routine,” which Barak defined as “our weak point”. According to the document, the officers must avoid repeating activities over time, like travelling on the same traffic routes or shopping for groceries at the same place.
The letter advises the officers to check their cars in the morning before driving them, examine their mail and avoid accepting unexpected packages. When they are abroad, the officers are urged not to stay in hotels defense officials are not familiar with and to reserve rooms which are not located next to the elevator or staircase.
Here’s where the Kabuki comes in. It makes no sense for a letter to warn IDF officers about Iranian attacks on them in retaliation for events which happened months to years ago. And in the case of the Cast Lead veterans list, it wasn’t compiled by or distributed by Iran, nor did it threaten any IDF veteran with violence.
Even in the case of the recent assassination and severe wounding of two Iranian scientists, Iran blamed Israel but never overtly threatened to take revenge.
No, for the real reason motivating this warning I believe you have to look to the suicide/murder of Asgari reported here in the past few days. While Iran certainly would be angry with killings of its nuclear scientists, the outright murder of one of its generals and senior ministers would rankle even more since Israel kidnapped him, likely tortured him and drained him of whatever useful intelligence he might offer concerning his work as liaison to Hezbollah and more, then possibly murdered him in a dark Israeli prison. For those who understand the outpouring of emotion and trauma that accompanied the capture and eventual death in captivity of IAF pilot Ron Arad (an event Israel believed Asgari played some role in), imagine the average Iranian feeling the same sense of national outrage.
This news, Israel fears, will truly provoke a violent reaction in Teheran. Hence the warning letter.
There are a few other interesting phenomena to note regarding the letter. Assuming Asgari was murdered, what better way to deflect blame and attention both within Israel and abroad than to warn of an imminent (trumped-up) revenge terror attack planned by Iran. There is nothing like a terror warning to make Israelis scramble into their personal and ideological bunkers. When the security apparatus engages in such domestic hasbara, it diverts the average Israeli from spending any time thinking that the Mossad, Shabak or Aman may be corrupt or homicidal, or that its flagrant, bellicose actions might threaten a war with Iran.
The warning letter is thus a form of domestic psyops designed to work on the Israeli population. It is also designed to have a similar effect internationally. If the Israeli defense establishment warns of an impending attack by Iran, the Israelis will be hoping that everyone will rally round the flag to defend little David under attack by big, bad Goliath Iran.
Perhaps most importantly, it also serves to deflate any pressure on Israel to account for Asgari. If the former can persuade the world it is in imminent danger of attack, then no one in their right mind would charge Israel with murder and demand that it explain what happened to Asgari, how he ended up in Ayalon Prison, or how he died. Yes, this is a rather clever piece of psyops. I hope it won’t work. And I hope we and the world media can keep the pressure on and press for answers.
Iran’s Press TV reports that the country’s defense minister has denounced the death of Asgari and attributed it to Israel:
Iran’s defense minister says the suspected death of Iranian prisoner Ali-Reza Asgari in an Israeli prison is another test for those who internationally advocate human rights.
If the credibility of this report is proved, the dossier on Israel’s kidnappings, assassinations and murders will become thicker, Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi said on Wednesday.
“This inhumane action is another test for the international community which advocates human rights,” he added.
Vahidi said Asgari’s abduction by Israel’s intelligence service is certain, adding that after kidnapping the Iranian national, the Israelis tried to cover up their action by spreading the rumor that he had sought asylum in a third country.
The Iranian defense minister said Iran would use all its capabilities and capacities to determine Asgari’s fate. Vahidi said that such actions only serve to create public hatred for the US and Britain, which are the main supporters of Israel.
Unlike yesterday’s statement by a deputy foreign minister, the more senior defense minister was slightly more circumspect in allowing for the fact that my report may be wrong. But he clearly placed enough stock in it to make the declaration he did.
It’s worth noting that Yossi Melman devotes part of today’s Haaretz column, called suggestively The Prison Service Covering for Mossad [Wrongdoing], to debunking the claim that Asgari ever came to Israel willingly as a defector or against his will. But he goes on to scold the Mossad for being unwilling to reveal its secrets even when they do damage to Israel’s reputation. This passage (from the English translation, which is flawed and incomplete but at least accurate in this portion) in particular struck me:
It would be better were Israel to realize that in some cases the publication of information, no matter how inconvenient and painful it might be to a government body, is preferable to concealing it and allowing an irresponsible, damaging rumor mill to grind on.
Even Melman the skeptic is claiming there is a hidden truth here the Mossad refuses to reveal because it will injure its reputation. Reading between the lines, Melman seems to be saying that someone died at the hands of the Mossad, but that it wasn’t Asgari. This certainly raises many more questions than it answers. Stay tuned…
NOTE: Apparently, some international news agencies have picked up my reporting through its republication in the Eurasia Review. Unfortunately, ER did not properly link to, or credit this blog as the original source of the story. As a result it is not being properly credited in some media circles.
98 thoughts on “Iran’s Defense Minister Denounces Israel’s Role in Asgari’s Suspected Death, IDF Warns of Iranian Revenge Attacks – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
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This murder (if true) is merely the latest in a long series of Mossad/CiIA terrorist provocations against Iran.
Perhaps the Iranians have sensibly concluded that their restraint re: retaliation is seen by their enemies as a sign of weakness that can no longer be tolerated.
So what is, in your opinion, fillmorehagan, the “sensible” thing that Iran should do in retaliation to RUMOURS that the Mossad or CIA was involved in “terrorist provocation” against Iran?
Here’s some ideas:
Aid terrorists to blow up a Jewish centre in Argentina
Take over the (now non-existant) US Embassy in Tehran
Put out a Fatwah against Salmon Rashdi and other “Mossad or CIA agents”
Develop a nuclear weapon for deterrant
Hang a few scapegoats for allegedly spying for the US or Israel
Speaking of allegations, provide proof for ALL of yours. The last part is proved in a court and the spies were given appeals all the way to the Supreme Court automatically. Nice attempt to grand stand tho…
My allegations are as substantiated as Richard’s accusation of murder by the Mossad in an Israel prison – it may or may not be accurate like my accusations. Time will tell.
As for due process – any due process that ends in execution is not, in my opinion, due process but pre-meditated state murder whether it be Saddam Hussain, a rapist in Texas or a spy in Iran.
Okay well capital punishment is a debatable issue, but many of your allegations blame the wrong party. The Mullahs did not take over the embassy, leftist students did and not one American was hurt. Although propaganda was created around it.
Due process means a full judicial process. You are blurring sentencing with examined conviction.
Iran, India and Pakistan subject themselves to inspections by the IAEA, with Iran being the most monitored ever. When will Israel heed the 189 nation demand, cosigned by the US, to come clean about its rogue nuclear arsenal?
When will Vanunu get universally recognized habeas corpus and due process? The sweet embrace of death would be better than what he suffered for rightful actions. His entire life was wasted by Israel.
The third allegation remains unproven and due process was averted. How did that court make that ruling without a scintilla of evidence?
Or a Palestinian murdered in his bed by the IDF?? I note you conveniently left this scenario out of yr list. Why might that be?
Richard you missed my point – I was talking about executions as a result of DUE PROCESS – killing a Palestinian in his bed or shooting a Jew in a fly-past car shooting is a far cry from due process.
I think you probably agree with me that capital punishment is virtually as bad as execution without trial.
I must’ve misread. I thought you wrote execution without due process. And yes, capital punishment is vile, little more than state sanctioned murder. The most you can say for it is that there’s a trial. But we’ve come to see here in the U.S. that many innocent men have been executed, so the legal system often doesn’t even provide due process or a proper result.
And you think this is any better than Israel’s behavior in imprisoning, torturing & sometimes murdering its own “enemy combatant” prisoners? Israel won’t hang anyone formally, but that’s why they have targeted assassinations. It’s a defacto form of state capital punishment.
I’m offended that I didn’t get a letter – I’m obviously not important enough!
1. Brigadier-General Barak letter comes after few officers received threats since their name was published in the cast lead alleged war crime list, which was published in this site and others.
2. The letter attached here http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/291210.pdf doesn’t mention a specific Iranian threat. The Iranian part was the interpretation of the Ynet reporter who added a very inaccurate title stating “fear of Iranian revenge”
3. The IDF doesn’t work as fast as you think, you reported the alleged death of the Iranian General few days ago, the letter was published yesterday at ynet, which means they received it at list a day or two prior (Monday probably) which means it was received by the IDF officers last week, was drafted few weeks ago and then circulated. No connection what so ever to what you published.
4. The Iranian defense minister didn’t confirm the death of al asgari, he simply repeated what you published and was echoed in other blogs, you quoted his statement to press TV which state “If the credibility of this report is proved”, key word being IF.
5. Yossi Melman writea in his article:
The result of the unjustified and not democratic tight-lipped policy of the mossad, is that from time to time rumors most aren’t true or inaccurate make their way to international Web Sites or foreign journalists, most (of those Journalists and writers) do not know between right and left. ”
As an example for such a statement published in your site Melman brings the “planned” apology of the new Mossad chief for the use of British passports during the alleged Dubai operation
“התוצאה של מדיניות קפוצת שפתיים בלתי מוצדקת ובלתי דמוקרטית זו היא, שמפעם לפעם נפוצות שמועות על המוסד, שרובן לא היו נכונות או לא מדויקות. השמועות האלה עושות את דרכן לאתרי אינטרנט בחו”ל או לעיתונאים זרים, שלא מעטים מהם אינם יודעים בין ימינם לשמאלם.”
In short this all story is a “Storm in a tea cup”.
Comments should be substantive & say something original. This isn’t a cheering gallery or grandstand. We’re not keeping score. If you actually have something to say then do so. If you’re keeping score, then don’t bother. We don’t here.
Shmuel, Nathaniel and Ilan can just high five each other in person. Their nodus operandi reaks of Hasbara. Same talking points, no originality, grandstanding with superficial arguments that shrivel in day light, they try to keep their comments most visible and always try to discredit the author of a post or comment without any real substantive augments. I hope they weren’t volunteering for what Settlers and others get paid to do.
The expression is Modus operandi. And yes this is “hasbara” = in Hebrew “explanation”
I’m not ashamed to explain my viewpoint to you, Persianadvocate, any more than you are not ashamed to explain your pro-Iranian viewpoint. (What’s the Farse word for “explaining”?)
I declare that I recieve no recompense whatsoever for my efforts, and hope that the Iranian regime does not recompense you in any way for your loyal support.
I also have no need for your appraisal of my efforts – they are at least as serious as yours and certainly more polite.
Hasbara literally means “explanation,” but in contemporary usage it has much more a connotation of “spin” or “advocacy.”
I think you make a big mistake & it bothers me that you conflate an independent Iranian-American who supports Iran, but not the current regime with an apologist for the regime. That is simply wrong & even offensive. Just as Persian Advocate once made a similar comment about another commenter here that was far too reductionist.
The word is Farsi and farce is not related. Nodus was an auto spell check error. And it’s not a word, but a phrase. Recompensation is the other word you were looking for.
I’m polite to people who don’t consistently bullshit and then try to impeach me before looking into the mirror.
PS – “Raast goftan” (pronounced Raw-st go-f-tan) – “telling the truth” = explaining in Farsi. There’s not much “explanation” needed when you do that. 😉
Completely inaccurate. Officers received postcards w. images of murdered Palestinian children & asked them how they could sleep at night w. this on their consciences. Somehow you have transformed this into a “threat,” which interestingly tells us a bit about how the Israeli psyche works in turning genuine, legitimate criticism into an existential threat.
I doubt very much a reporter would make up something like this. I assume that he was told by the IDF that this was why it was sending out the ltr.
The deputy foreign minister DID confirm the death the day before. The defense minister was careful to give himself an out if my rpt was wrong. But the fact that he made any comment at all is significant.
Yossi Melman himself as much as admits that the Prison Service is covering for a serious crime committed by the Mossad, likely the murder of Prisoner X, & you call this death/murder a tempest in a teacup. Would you do so if it was your son or brother or father? No, you wouldn’t. Which only indicates how void of humanity you are when it comes to anyone who isn’t a Jew.
Completely inaccurate ? from Ynet (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3986662,00.html)
אתר שחשף פרטים על “פושעי מלחמה” הוסר
זמן קצר לאחר הפרסום על האתר שחשף פרטים של חיילים שהשתתפו ב”עופרת יצוקה” – הוא הורד מהאינטרנט. באתר נכתב כי הוא הושעה “עקב הפרת תנאי השימוש”. אחד הקצינים סיפר כי כבר קיבל איומים על חייו ב”פייסבוק”
there where others who received threats in letters sent to their homes.
The Alleged threat was at no time a part of the letter, which circulated about a year before, i have no idea if the reporter had any background conversation with the IDF, i don’t think he did, but we can email him and find out.
The deputy Minister of defense was repeating what he read on your blog, because he had no way to confirm being of Asgari in israel in the first place let alone the place of his death. if the Iranians had such a prior knowledge, they would have demanded Asgari’s release, they never did.
as for you last statement about my jewish values, you are taking my things out of context, i stated that YOUR STORY was a storm in a tea cup not the, death of prisoner X (who may have actually committed suicide)
Y. Melman Lists prior prisoners who were known as Prisoners X, one common denominator to all of them, they were all israelis who spied on behalf of a foreign country.
The sites which publicized the names of the Cast Lead veterans did not threaten them in any way. Period. Any IDF officer can say whatever he wants about threats but I’ve never seen one documented. Never seen a threat quoted. Do you know of any specific ones that are documented?
That’ll be yr job since you disbelieve him & I don’t. YOu can report back his reply if he does reply. But I suggest that you be less dismissive in yr approach to him than you were here.
It is astonishing hubris for Israelis to believe that their own intelligence services are all-knowing & all powerful but to believe that those of its enemies are total nitwits who have no sources or knowledge of their own. Iran reported LAST YEAR that Asgari was in an Israeli prison. I didn’t tell them that. How did they know? And yes, last yr. they did demand his release when they claimed he was in Israel.
My story is that Asgari was murdered in an Israeli prison cell. If it was not Asgari SOMEONE was murdered by Mossad in that cell. And this is implicitly confirmed by Yossi Melman & Amir Oren. So when you say my story is a tempest in a teacup you are dismissing the entire value of the story, which I find offensive given that someone has been murdered.
And it wasn’t your Jewish values I was impugning. It was your lack of humanity regarding those who are not Israeli Jews. Your utter lack of concern for a murdered man whether he be Asgari or someone else.
1. IDF security has many documented incidents of people who were on that list and received threats. no one said they received threaths from the site who published the list, and it is irrelevant. they did however received threats as a result of their names being there.
2 the Iranians claim to date, that 4 Iranian diplomats that disappeared in Lebanon in 1982 are held captive to date in Israel or Israel murdered them, In his book “The state of Israel will do anything” Ronen Bergman brings an interview with the member of the Lebanese group who actually murdered them after receiving orders from Eli Hubaika himself (i hope that’s the correct spelling).
Israel claimed many times that Ron Arad was held captive in Iran, i don’t think that the Iranian claim should be treated with any more or less credibility then the Israeli claim.
3 i find it extremely naive on your behalf to believe that the day you write about the alleged day the Iranian deputy to the minister of defense states that Asgari was murdered in Israel, and you don’t think that two are related.
4. i Was told that in the USA someone is innocent until proven guilty. the fact that you write a story based on a source which according to your own testimony you don’t know isn’t a good enough reason, to me, to alleged accusations. you know, specially today when the former Israeli president was convicted at two different incidents or rape and will be facing time in prison (a long time) that if such a murder took place within the state of israel, it will be investigate and the responsible parties will be prosecuted.
Look, anyone can say anything about what the Mossad does or doesn’t do or what the IDF has or doesn’t have. As far as I’m concerned until you provide a concrete example of such a threat, one doesn’t exist. Is it possible someone was threatened? Yes. Do I know it happened or believe it happened? Not until someone provides real evidence. A rumor or vague claim that something happened isn’t good enough.
They were murdered, so Israel claims, by the South Lebanese Army, an Israeli proxy. Israel bears either direct or indirect responsibility for their deaths even if you believe Israel’s version of events.
This seems like the 4th time you’ve made such a claim w/o bringing any evidence to support it. So you won’t make the claim again unless you provide such evidence fr. a credible source. And again, not just a rumor or a vague claim, but some real evidence fr. a reliable source.
That’s the key phrase, “to me.” But I don’t write to you or for you nor do I expect to persuade you of anything. My reporting has been persuasive enough for it to be reported both in Iranian, Israeli & U.S. media. That’s good enough for me.
You’re seriously claiming that because the disgraced ex-president of Israel was convicted of rape that this means Israel would investigate & convict a Mossad interrogator of the murder of an Iranian or possibly other foreign enemy operative? What are you smokin & what do you take us for? I do so love the narrative suggested by Isabel Kershner in the Times that because of this conviction Israel has proven that it’s a great democracy which observes the rule of law & equal justice for all. Unfortunately, this narrative leaves out Palestinians, both inside & outside Israel, along w. Mizrahim as well who recieve little or no proper justice when they need it.
Ilan – you’re very outdated. Iran has had over 10 different citizens missing since Israel declared war on Iran’s civilian enrichment program. That’s on top of the 4 you mentioned.
Show us a link to an English Ron Arad article that says he is definitely in Iran. You are regurgitating the same thing another person mistakenly claimed. Who is providing you your talking points? Elmer Fudd? “be vewy vewy quiet!”
#3 – you reversed the time line. Richard reported it first, Vahidi spoke about Richard’s report in his statements. Wake up?
#4 – The US Constitution does not apply to Israel, which does not even have one itself. Why? So it can be lawless as it is.
A bit of hyperbole here, don’t you think? When did Israel “declare war on Iran’s civilian enrichment programme”?
They didn’t even do it to the nuclear programme let alone the civilian one.
And any link about 10 missing Iranians and a connection to Israel involvement? Don’t think so.
1. I linked to one claim on Ynet, there are other on the site of the IDf spokesman.
2. Ron Arad, let me quote from the MFA website “Israeli intelligence also believes Arad is being held in Iran or Lebanon by Iranian backed forces. The Iranians have never publicly admitted to holding Ron or to having any information regarding his condition or location. ” (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/12/Ten%20million%20dollars%20for%20information%20on%20Ron%20Arad%207-Dec-2004) you can read more in Ronen Bergmans book, publications in all the Israeli news papers, and all the prime media news channels (1, 2, 10. i’m surprised that someone who cover israel with such a passion never heard that claim before.
3. Eli Hubeika was never part of the South Lebanese Army, he was part of the kataeb party, which always run their own operation. and were never an Israeli proxy, they did cooperate with Israel on occasion.
It’s pathetic how objective and balanced journalists like Richard Silverstein and some of his blog readers, who speak to no intelligence, do not converse with political units, etc., can easily point out the transparent plans of Mossad, a supposed clandestine organization of some might. Heh…SOME might indeed…
Iran, again, will not give a North Korean response to this instance. They will not even give a SAUDI ARABIAN one and send a few people flying into some buildings. Nor will they give a transparent one that gets filmed and taped like the Israelis.
Iran will initiate an Iranian response. Vahidi states unequivocally, “If the credibility of this report is proved, the dossier on Israel’s kidnappings, assassinations and murders will become thicker.”
Much to Israel’s dismay (and big brother’s… who is still misled to believe Israel is an asset instead of a liability), Iran will not pay attention to the child that is banging pots and pans, calling Iran names, taunting the ancient civilization as if it were a fellow school child on the playground. Instead, Iran will be patient, gather a dossier, and attack Israel on legitimate grounds via the United Nations. Then, when Israel’s long gone from the favored spotlight in America, Iran will give Israel one big backhanded slap, sending the violent child to the ground, crying and holding its face. Israel deepens its isolation with every move.
As for Ynet, if they can be gagged, they can also be manipulated. I would be careful about the stories that print out of there henceforth. Perhaps the above commentators are right that the IDF is slow and would not necessarily send these warnings out tout-de-suite.
For the rest of the world, watch out for the IDF soldiers. Apparently they carry with them armaments that have depleted uranium in them and get stopped at airports frequently for forgetting to leave the guns and ammo at home. The world is much less safe with the IDF.
Meanwhile, if Goldberg of the Atlantic is telling Israel its current trajectory means doom, then maybe Israel should open its damn eyes and realize the best friend it ever had was Richard Silverstein, a man who has been saying the same for years.
It’s time for Israel to save face, if it has any left. Apologize to Turkey immediately, stop trumpeting a false Iranian threat and allow reconciliation, and make peace with the Palestinians. These three things the world will NOT compromise on.
Simply put, Israel cannot maintain an artificial hegemony by acting bellicose, trumpeting a false threat by Iran, and continuing an apartheid state. Indeed, the US and Americans grow weary, too. You’re totally dragging us down with you.
Vahidi’s warning extends to the US, who will also be IMPLICATED, but not attacked, for conspiracy if it had any hand in this kidnapping. At least 150 plus million Americans and 140+ million Iranians worldwide, plus the entirety of Turkey, Syria, 80% of Lebanon, Saudi Arabia’s super-majority population, etc. etc. see Israel as a persistent threat to world peace.
Israel has stepped on the toes of SOOOOO many countries and factions, how will it know WHERE a response comes from? America’s Jewry is also aware that Israel’s steps over the last decade and a half were remarkably stupid. The ones who trumpet for Israel’s bellicosity will not be picking up a gun, nor putting themselves at risk, from their cozy abodes here in the US.
Official Israel didn’t claim – in this incident – that Iran threats any action or revenge.
It was a reporter (Hanan Greenberg of Ynet) and blogger (Richard Silverstein of Tikun Plam) who claimed that, furthermore the letter issued by the IDF is a routine letter directed at retired hige ranking officer, and this is the regular how to behave instructions, it is stated on the letter exactly that, there was nothing unprecedented about the letter, on the letter itself it is stated that a previous circulation was issued last year.
as for the rest of your statement about turkey etc etc, what does it have to do with this specific post ?
“Official Israel didn’t claim – in this incident – that Iran threats any action or revenge.”
So what? Even if you’re right Israel threatens Iran every other day, based on trumped up, bogus threats that it claims Iran made.
you already stated that my english is bad because i am a foreigner.
but even with my limited english abilities i was able to understand that Richard is basing his claim on the fact that the IDF issued a letter warning the High Ranking officers of some sort of Iranian Retaliation due to some sort of threat.
Israel never claimed there was a threat hence there is no correlation between the letter issued and the incident Richard reported on.
Please stop addressing me as “Mr.”.
I have no idea why he adopted this annoying habit Kalea, but whatever the reason: It was puerile from the start and it is time that he stopped. (His own name is probably some sort of stupid attempt at making fun of Ilan Pappe or something. Whatever…)
@ Kalea i’m sorry for calling you Mr. i thought you were. i was wrong and i apologize.
@ Elizabeth – ilanp is abbreviation of something from my field of expertise, no intent to make fun out of anyone.
who is Ilan Pappe ?
That’s the trouble with people hiding behind code names. Not that it makes any difference, but it does confuse gender. PersianAdvocate could just as easily be mistaken for Mr. or Mrs. or Ms.
“Who is Ilan Pappe?” Well, now we’re able to understand the level of intelligence of some of the people who comment on this blog. Is it any wonder they are not taken seriously?
Instead of criticizing someone for not knowing something we think they should, let’s educate him & offer him a book he can read if he chooses. OK?
Apology accepted. I’m surprised you don’t know who Illan Pappe is. Go to Ilan Pappe on wiki.
# Ilan P)
“IlanP is abbreviation of something from my field of expertise”
Oh my, if my Hebrew is correct, “Ilan” means ‘tree’ and I think we have a genuine treeplanter from The Jewish National Fund blogging here :-). “P” is of course the codename for Palestine.
To kill two birds with one stone: here’s an article on the role of JNF in the colonization of Palestine (at the end of the article you can download an e-book) and one of the contributors is ILAN PAPPE.
Two great speeches by Ilan Pappe at the end of November in Stuttgart. The third entry is a Q/A in German.
He speaks about the socalled “complexity of Zionism” that according to Zionists only they do understand, and that only they have the right to criticize. He also speaks about the Israeli obsession about the (Jewish) democracy which they tend to maintain even through massive expulsion.
He speaks about liberal Zionism as more harmful than right-wing Zionism because it seems ‘kosher’ [my word] to a lot of people. And he finally speaks about his own “dezionisation” as a personal liberation.
Particularly the second video is a great moment of lucidity (does that word exist in English ?)
This is becoming off topic, but one can see opinions that disagree with Ilan Pappe on the Wiki site bearing his name:
I’d be very wary of anyone who ran for the Knesset on a Communist (formally pro-soviet) party ticket
Sorry, Richard, this is OFF topic.
I don’t know whether you know Pappe or not. The fact than he ran for Hadash doesn’t prevent him from having great integrity 🙂 He was a professor of history in Haïfa for many years, before leaving Israel a couple of years ago. He didn’t leave because of the numerous death threats that he received, his wife and kids included, but because his academical career was “stopped”. He is actually a professor at the University of Exeter in the UK and the director of an Institute of Research on Palestine.
I know you’re an honest person (well, it is New Year Eve soon) and I encourage you to read on the Teddy Katz-affair that nearly cost Pappe his job at Haifa University. Teddy Katz, a goos old Labor-Zionist, living in a kibbutz, decided at the age of 40 to go back to school, he wrote a thesis in history on the Tantura-massacre based on oral testemonies of inhabitants of the bygone village AND former soldiers. He got an A (97 or what that is in Israel), Tsahal filed a complaint against him, and a kafkaesque process started. Pappe had nothing to do with the thesis, but he read it and sided with Katz. Pappe was harrassed, and only an international mobilisation of world-known historians prevented him from losing his job. Well, that is integrity to me. I’ve had the great pleasure of listening to him on many occasions, and if you’re courageous, and sure of your opinions why don’t you listren to what he has to say ? Teddy Katz is on the net too.
PS. I’m sorry for ‘hijacking’ this file.
PPS. HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone.
“‘as’sana as-sa’îda” in Arabic. I’m sorry I only know “Mazel Tov” in Hebrew. May 2011 bring peace to the Holy Land.
We say shanah tovah (“Happy New Year”), but usually only at the Jewish New Year.
I read most of what you wrote on the link I posted from Wikipedea bearing Ilan Pappe’s name.
I hadn’t previously heard of him, but had heard of the Teddy Katz thesis from the Kibbutz press (I used to be a kibbutznik)
I have no doubt that he has integrity, as do most serious academics, but am wary because someone wrote on the site above, that he has often adapted his view of history to his political agenda, and that, together with communist ideology, is suspect in my eyes.
I’m sure he is an eloquant, and thought provoking orator.
I think a basic fault of many Israelis today is that, based on their experience of the past, concerning certain Arab leaders who were prone to distort the truth (like all politicians?), there is instant suspicion concerning anyone who puts forward “challenging” views to the Zionist narrative.
For instance, Yasser Arafat claiming that the Americans launched cruise missiles on Iraq from “the negev”, or Gamal Abdul Nasser who claimed his troops had reached Tel Aviv in the 73 war and called on King Hussain to join the victory.
Likewise, few Israelis will believe Palestinian testimony concerning 1948 “massacres”, especially when given more than 40 years later. I have heard many Israelis claim that “they know” that the polygraph doesn’t work on “Arabs” as they “lie as a rule’ and are “convinced” of their lies.
This is the real challenge, to convince both sides that there is a truth in both narratives and that neither side has all of the truth on its side.
If you’re not well with Pappe being a ‘communist’ go for Avi Shlaïm, professor at Oxford University (if my memory is corect, Pappe wrote his thesis with Shlaïm as his director). Avi Shlaïm is NOT a communist, he wrote very recommendable things on the ’48-war, and a book on the collusion of King Abdallah. He also has intersting things to say about the “expulsion” of Jews from the Arab world which he contests. He’s of Iraqi origin and has always claimed that he’s not a refugee.
lol $Deir; niiice 😉 He forgets who wrote what. I was confused.
I also like Joe Pesci’s “You think I’m funny or sumtin?!?!?”
No, in fact the high ranking IDF officers to whom it was addressed told the Ynet reporter that it was a ltr. unprecedented in its specificity & urgency. Didn’t you read the original article or did you just choose to ignore what was inconvenient to yr argument?
Richard, it states right on the letter item number 6:
“we found it applicable to reiterate again procedures related to your personal safety, as we did last year, for the benefit of both current and old IDF retirees”
From Ynet, “officer who received the letter on Wednesday morning told Ynet that these were the most detailed instruction they had ever received in terms of personal safety”
the way i read it, we received instruction before, these were a bit more detailed. where did you get the urgency ?
as to your question from the previous post of what happens to bodies of enemy combatants, they are buried in a special cemetery in unmarked graves (by the Rabanut Zvait) and kept for future pow exchange deals.
in all the POW exchange deals i know of, Israel, always returns bodies as part of the deal.
“as to your question from the previous post of what happens to bodies of enemy combatants, they are buried in a special cemetery in unmarked graves (by the Rabanut Zvait) and kept for future pow exchange deals.”
I was sickened when I read this.
Israel is leaving a trail of bodies; the “enemy” is never human in the perception of Israelis. Death seems to be a top priority on Israel’s agenda.
Israelis: Israel is a picture postcare paradise. Reality: Israel is a mirage for something oppressive and ugly.
No need to be sickened by this, at least they are given a respectful burial in a coffin which is more than can be said regarding tens of missing IDF soldiers from various wars who disappeared on enemy territory without trace.
And one could remind you about the mutilation of the bodies of dead Palmach soldiers by the villagers of Surif and Jab’a (the 35) in 1948, or the more recent lynch in Ramallah of two soldiers and the subsequent mutilation of their bodies by the masses, recorded on Italian TV.
And who was it who held the dead bodies of three soldiers captured on Israeli soil and refused to even notify Israel or the Red Cross/Crescent if they are alive or dead for three years? (Answer; Hizbollah)
Actually I’m sickened by your hypocritical and insensitive reply.
Yr general line is shading rapidly into propaganda-mongering. If that’s yr game you know you can’t do it here. I HATE tit for tat debates about who did what to whom & whose sin was worse. There are lots of other places for that. You’re not going to do that here. If you insist on doing so, you’ll pay the price.
Puh-leeze. You mean to tell me that Israel has accounted for every enemy soldier it has killed & returned all bodies? That statement lacks credibility.
How about Amos Horev’s heroic castration of a Palestinian Israeli he believed had raped Jewish women about which a wonderful popular song was written. Now Horev is a big brave retired general on the Turkel committee that’s whitewashing the Mavi Marmara massacre. What’s really stupid about yr tit for tat method is that any half way decent propagandist can counter any thrust by such a parry. I find it incredibly boring because it proves nothing & persuades no one. You want to persuade us that both sides are bloodthirsty & have done heinous acts to the other? Granted. Now can we get on w. something serious?
I’m actually sickened by yr self-righteousness.
On the Israeli “Cemetery of Numbers”:
@ Shmuel i actually understand where Kalea is coming from.
The way i wrote it it sounds as if israel is trading with enemy bodies. the truth is the exact opposite. During the years it was the other side who created a sickening equation of which they demanded to exchange live prisoners for the bodies of Israeli soldiers, it never happened when Israel was fighting the arab regular armies. but when the terror organizations , PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and few others, took over…well that’s just the way they roll.
few examples of recent events
1. The prisoner exchange for the 3 Soldiers who were kidnapped from the Israeli side of the border in 2000
2. The prisoner exchange for the 2 soldiers who were kidnapped from the israeli side of the border in 2006, the event that actually started the second Lebanon war
3. The exchange for the body parts of Itamar Eilia.
and just to remind you Kalea that Gilad Shalit, in defiance of international law, didn’t get a visit of the international Red Cross to date. and no one knows what is real physical condition is.
“The most detailed instruction they had every received in terms of personal safety” indicates a sense of urgency regarding the safety of the officers being warned.
Your argument here that Israel will recieve an unexpected response after stepping on so many toes, etc, etc, is exactly the justification in Israeli politician’s eyes for its nuclear arms policy. When many Israelis see that “others” see Israel in such (unjustified, in their opinion) negative light (as you seem to) it only strengthens their need for greater defence against the “wicked outside world” who is after its destruction, and the viscious circle goes round and round.
I don’t know what the solution is, but the Rambam suggested the “golden path” which rejects extremism on either side.
Perhaps it might be constuctive if I were to list the positive side of Iranian policies and actions, and you would do the same with Israeli actions and policies – maybe we would both come to some fruitful understanding.
Of course an answer from either of us that we “can’t find any” would only prove my point…
A joke: The Finns say that the only positive point in favour of the Swedes is that they have good neighbours (>;
Justification for Israel’s punishment? Yes. Israel’s bellicosity: NO!
As for me, I forgive and forget quite easily. I am a friend to Israelis and the criticism is sometimes hard to bear, but aimed at changing at what I know to be a doomed trajectory. Look at Goldberg changing tune and finally admitting this as well, and he’s considered “the most influential” spokesman for the Israeli government in the press.
They call it tough love, and of course, I am called crazy things like antiSemite for it when I am quite the opposite and am VERY intolerant of discrimination. But, I’m neither a policymaker, a pioneer in this field like Richard, or anything like that. I just want to prevent what is sure disaster. Richard and others have done far more for the world than people like me. I’m just a blog reader and commentator, not an ambassador and I wish someone would send me a check for what I do. Feel free to be that someone 😉
I am also a friend to Iranians, Jewish, Muslim otherwise. I believe the Iranian government has justification for it’s suppression of dissent and this is due to Israel’s policies of belligerency and threats over the last ten years. It’s lobbies prevented a 2002 reconciliation that would allow Iran to progress under the current government, and reverberations of reform were quickly hijacked by various groups under an Israeli spearheaded agenda to overthrow our government. Meir Dagan admits this policy in WikiLeaks cables.
I don’t have an agenda. I go to the beat of my own drum. Israel’s hegemony is artificial and aims to deny Iranians a long deserved natural right, and additionally, one GRANTED by the NPT.
Again, I am not a diplomat or anything so this is just a conversation and I don’t represent the Iranian government in any form or fashion.
I also don’t represent the Israeli government, in fact no party I ever voted for ever was part of the Coalition.
I also have Arab, Muslim, Druze and Christian friends, but I find Iran’s policies frightening in spite of your erudite replies to anything “anti” Iranian.
I don’t think you are anti-semitic, but feel that you are unjustifiable harsh to one side whilst giving a carte blanch to the other.
I don’t. But it’s Israeli policies that are directly hurting everyone’s ability to render progress in Iran. Ive stated this several times now.
One more thing, there are quite a few people, including victims’ families, already on to things. There is no way to blow the political wind back to Israel. NO MORE AMERICANS WILL DIE FOR ISRAEL, PERIOD. Quite honestly, we’re all well aware that no terrorism from any Arab or Muslim countries were committed to US interests ANYWHERE before 1968, when Israel moved into the special ally relationship we all wish we never gave it based on the last 30 years. Israel is not the underdog, but a pariah, and it is being watched very closely.
Americans will die for causes that they believe to be just, as long as there is an American army made up of patriotic Americans who believe in the cause.
Do you have any reason to believe that there is a falling in the motivation of US conscripts?
And when did Americans (other than American Jews) last die for Israel?
Americans died in Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Panama, Kosovo, Lebanon, etc, but only 4 CIA agents were killed in Gaza by Palestinians. All the others died, mistakenly or not, for democracy, against tyranny, for Christian values and for freedom.
Israel has got nothing to do with all this.
Even Obama “the great liberal hope” still has his troops deep in the Iraqi and Afgan mud two years after being elected. No doubt you think he is Jewish (like rotter readers think he is Muslim)
http://www.stopaipac.org clearly outlines how Israel and its lobbies helped draw us into Iraq. AIPAC leads the charge in falsely creating an Iranian bogeyman and stigmatizing Iranians worldwide.
The site you posted, which has a clear and stated anti-AIPAC agenda, itself says that AIPAC is “one of the most powerful lobbies on Capitol Hill” (not the most powerful)- my understanding then is that there are many other lobbies there similarly powerful.
My limited knowledge of your democracy tells me that lobbying is an essential part of all American policy making in all fields from health, economy, taxation, guns, abortion, education. Pressure groups in all democracies lobby their interests to their Parliamentary representatives, and these listen to the lobbies because these are the people who vote for them.
This is called democracy.
Limited knowledge sounds like the same damn Hasbara argument I read everytime in response to this. There’s a difference between lobbying like the French and Germans do, and manipulating government and press. The DOJ requested in 1962 that AIPAC reclassify as a foreign agent of the Israeli government and was strong armed. This blog outlines how Steve Rosen’s court documents were a party admission to AIPAC’s unconstitutional and undue influence over America.
tick tick tock, Hasbara bot will now supply you with a form reply (that means I pre-wrote this about 2 months ago or more, because you all “explain things” the same EXACT way, as if it’s coordinated — and must be on some level, maybe not direct instruction, but you all read the same talking points and regurgitate them ad nausea):
“AIPAC’s manipulation of the Federal Government is not protected under the Constitution. Indeed, the DOJ requested in 1962 that they reclassify as a foreign agent of the Israeli government instead of a domestic lobby but they were strongarmed: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/us-department-of-justice-asked-to-regulate-aipac-as-a-foreign-agent-of-the-israeli-government-88190712.html
AIPAC’s own former head just threw AIPAC under the bus recently in publicly available court documents: https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2010/11/16/aipacs-linen-very-dirty-and-very-public/“
There are not “many lobbies” on Capitol Hill similarly powerful. Perhaps the NRA & the Chamber of Commerce are similarly powerful. But no one else. Aipac is king of the heap really.
You need a civics lesson. Lobbyists are not the people who vote for members of Congress. They are the people who fund their campaigns. A very, very big difference. And this is why lobbying is not really democracy, but a perversion of democracy.
Say what? Not a single American soldier has died for Christian values & I have no idea what this even means. Do you?
I’ve repeated this about 3 separate times already in my posts. Why do you make my waste my time repeating myself. Amir Oren wrote a Haaretz story which implied that a security detainee was murdered. Yossi Melman has written that Asgari is not in Israel (hence that he was not murdered by Israel). But despite specific questions posed to an informed Israeli reporter, this same person has not disputed the other part of my story: that Prisoner X WAS murdered in Ayalon Prison. You can be very, very sure that since this source has told me explicitly he disagrees w. my claim that Asgari was this prisoner, that he would also dispute the claim that Prisoner X was murdered if it was indeed false. Melman too has written a column saying that something that would be painful for the Mossad to reveal has happened. He decried that Mossad refused to reveal what had happened. I put all the ducks in a row.
If you are right about this, then this would be the first sign of the consciousness of guilt beginning to unravel. Again, I don’t know how you’re going to get to the truth, but you should not let this go.
Maybe you can keep it on the back burner, while it remains always in the front of your mind. Maybe, there will be a tip from someone reliable; maybe another move that again betrays a consciousness of guilt. Don’t lose sight of a potential breakthrough.
Melman’s today’s article in Haaretz is very interesting. On one hand he mentions the whole affaire as a “quote” from foreign press sources, on the other hand he mentions cases where such suspicion was wrong. As if someone made him right so.He also says that to think that the mosad did it is wrong and that he hardly believes that Asgari looked for an asylum in Israel or was brought by force. Strange article.
MS, You obviously don’t understand how the Israeli censor works.
Any time an Israeli newspaper article includes the phrase “According to foreign sources” (“al pi mekorot zarim”), it’s an addition by the Israeli censorship, not the author’s.
Malman thinks (or knowns?) that Richard’s guess is wrong, and so he wrote. The censor added the famous “foreign” clause after the article was submitted for publication.
Oh, please. You’re such an expert on the subject & you know precisely what was in Melman’s original story & what the censor added. Really…
That’s not even how the censor works. The censor doesn’t have unlimited editing access to all news outlets. They issue a warning/details about censorship and which rules should be followed. “According to foreign sources” is added voluntarily by the newspapers’ editors, since, you know, they actually base their text on foreign sources, since any information is gagged in Israel, so there aren’t any domestic sources to base the information on.
Yes, he strongly disagrees with me. Scorns my view of this I imagine. But let him or the Mossad put forth what “the truth” is & then let us compare my narrative to theirs. In my first post about this story I conceded the possibility that some details might turn out to be wrong though I didn’t believe this would happen. So I’m perfectly prepared to change my mind & say I was partially wrong. But for Melman to simply state I’m wrong w/o presenting anything substantive in reply other than “I know what happened” is insufficient.
What seems clear in both Melman’s & my narrative is that someone, likely Prisoner X, was murdered by the Mossad in Ayalon Prison. My source goes farther & says it was Asgari. Melman scoffs. Well, let’s hear who it was. If we don’t, then Mossad & Melman have only themselves to blame if the story grows & metathesizes.
Did your source say or hint in any way whatsoever that he was murdered? I think that is your extrapolation, the source mentioned suicide, didn’t he?
oops, meant to reply here, not below.
“… Ya everyone’s dumb and no one the wiser.”
Mobile phones are tricky ;P
melman writes that it is a long shot that asgari is in israel, willingly or otherwise. he explains that people who crossed the lines willingly in the past didnt stay here, he doesnt elaborate why it is a long shot that asgari is here not of his free will.
the fact that asgari’s picture appears on haaretz web page with that headline seems like a hint, a puzzle piece.
Richard analyzed a possibility based on the available information. He never said it was a sure thing, although giving an analysis that it was highly probable. I’ve seen op-eds in mainstream papers like The New York Times that led America into Iraq for WMDs based on a forged yellowcake doument. I and the rest of America watched the entire Bush administration repeat nearly identical words (aka talking points) that Saddam had WMDs and must be stopped. The world and I have seen politician after politician trumpet the lie that Ahmadinejad wants to commit genocide to Jews via a patently obvious mistranslation, one that conflates into all Iranians being anti-Semitic, causing reckless mavericks like McCain to proclaim, “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran” to the tune of a Beach Boys song that will never sound the same.
If Richard is wrong, he disclaimed it. I can’t say the same for those who caused the examples above.
The Iranian statement can also be seen as a face-saving tactic. It is far more convenient to claim that one of their own was kidnapped and murdered by the enemy than to state that he defected and sought asylum elsewhere.
After reading your comment, I feel like someone just insulted my intelligence. For God’s sakes, his wives and children are in Iran. Do you think the man just abandoned his entire life to defect and spill the beans to the U.S. and Israel willlingly??
Asylum, my eye! Maybe Ayalon is an asylum because too many inmates go crazy from torture in there and come out in body bags.
In cold war times many Russian defectors left their families behind, chosing the “freedom” of the West over the “oppression” of the Communist regime.
Not impossible that Asgari did the same.
Kalea – your intelligence shouln’t be insulted, just use it liberally to see possibilities futher afield than your nose.
… Ya everyone’s dumb and no one the wiser.
I would not say “many.” I would say some. But these defectors were not Iranian Revolutionary Guard generals nor former deputy defense ministers. They were not the truest of the true blue, defenders of the Iranian Revolution. Nor did they leave TWO families behind as Asgari presumably has. So yes, it’s quite unlikely. And this isn’t my opinion. It’s the opinion of two Iranian-Americans quite informed about the IRG & what’s going on in Iran. They simply don’t beleive he willingly defected. I’ll trust their opinion of yrs.
@kalea – Your feelings are your choice, but some knowledge of history may be helpful to you. Defectors have deserted their families in the past, sometimes in hope they will join them in the future, other times because they wanted to start a new life.
@Richard – maybe the TWO families are the reason he left? As informed as your unnamed friends may be, they have no insight into his state of mind or his personal circumstances and therefore their speculation is as good as any.
Additionally, you may know that in many oppressive regimes many non-orthodox thinkers find their way into the inner circle where they are relatively protected.
Now, I am not insisting that this is what happened, but it is a distinct possibility despite your attempts to brush it off.
Not quite. They were both born in Iran and are national leaders of the U.S. Iranian community. They know the Iranian regime very well including figures like Asgari. They know what they’re talking about. Dissidents and free thinkers are NOT members of the Iranian inner circle.
… and obviously, as “born in Iran … national leaders of the U.S. Iranian community” their credentials are apparently impeccable as is their freedom from any agenda.
In the same way I suspect US Jewish leadership as having multiple hidden agendas I suspect the US Iranian leadership of the same. Even if I don’t know what they are up to, I am certain it is either not kosher or not halal. I’ll just submit the trust placed by the US government in Ahmad Chalaby and his self-serving ‘insider knowledge’ of Iraq.
Yes, in fact their credentials are impeccable. As for an agenda, that’s what I do here: I examine sources & figure out what agenda if any they have. Everyone has an agenda. Some agendas are good ones & some aren’t. These Iranians have an entirely laudable agenda. You’ll hear more fr. them in a post I’m writing later tonight. It may really get under yr skin.
You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. I know both the U.S. Jewish leadership & these 2 individuals. I doubt you know either, but you certainly haven’t a clue about the Iranian American leadership or these two individuals. So you have no grounds, knowledge or experience by which to judge them.
A truer word you’ve never spoken…
Wow, you know nothing about Iranian-American leadership, you don’t know the 2 individuals who are my sources, yet you’ve compared them to one of Iraq’s great charlatans. I’d say it’s YOU who is the charlatan.
its still a very convenient story, not substantiated by any other credible source
and while iran is pissing all over itself over this….israel radio is confirming that the mossad, with assistance from both mi6 and the cia, did indeed create and use stuxnet against the iranian nuke energy site
It’s in the nature of stories like this reported from countries that are national security states, that they arise fr a single source & are later proven (or in some cases disproven) true. I don’t expect that this story would be widely reported. Who else would know about it anyway except the bad guys who are trying to prevent people fr. learning about it for their own reasons?
I find your tone and language to be offensive. Yr glee at Iran’s discomfiture is offensive. I’ve already told you you’re on a short leash. Watch yrself. You could lose yr privileges at any time for any similar statement.
Israel Radio didn’t dig this story up. It came from a French newspaper & is based on an anonymous French intelligence source. Could be right, could be wrong. It sounds plausible, but this is much too thinly reported to be credited w/o further substantiation.
“iran is pissing all over itself”
This statement is based on total hyperbole and projection. It’s sounds like the bragging of a childish bully.
It would have been more honest if you wrote: Iran is pissing all over itself…I wish.
We’ll see which country, Israel or Iran, pisses all over itself should the impish bully, who likes to provoke, push the sleeping giant to war. Iran appears to have exercised great restraint so far, since it was prodded by Iraq, and coming on 8 years Saddam Hussein begged Iran to end the war, but it seems that once Iran is dragged into a fight; it fights never to surrender.
Israel is looking for a fight with Iran and won’t rest until it tries to prove that it can beat Iran at war to establish its hegemony in the region. Israel doesn’t like the fact that there is a giant like Iran in the neighborhood that it can’t control or decipher. Iran has over 7 times the population of Israel. Israelis think that if they can prove the giant can be humbled, all Israel’s neighbors will tremble and it can finally feel secure and put its paranoia to rest. It’s all about power and submission with Israel, but this delusion is utter folly.
I suspect Iran is like no other country in the region. Perhaps, Iranians jokingly harbor the same fantasy of making Israel piss all over itself too, except they don’t view war as child’s play so instead of bragging and making idle threats, they’re preparing for that outcome as a last resort in case Israel is bold and stupid enough to chase this foolish fantasy and strike first.
Iran is not practicing restraint. It is merely refusing to commit suicide.
No, that’s just more braggin. Too much bluffing, bragging and hot air going on.
As Will Sonnet said, “No brag, just fact.”
Joe, when anyone dares to cross the line in the sand Iran has placed 10 years ago, then you can talk the talk, but until then, you drag your knuckles when you walk, and you need to check your own underwear, I can smell it from here 😉
This is a very interesting discussion.I can only contribute one little story. Working as a cameraman for a European channel,during the @end Lebanese war, I got the opportunity to join an Israeli military force that went into Lebanon. After 96 hrs. of a nightmare I joined a convoy of armored vehicles that went back into Israel. On the front of each one of those vehicles there were bodies of dead Hizb-alla soldiers being taken as dead hostages. I never felt so sad in my life.
I understand that “Hizb-alla” routinely demands 100’s of Islamist militants in exchange for the bodies of dead Israeli soldiers, that they take as hostages. But you were not as equally sad?
What made me sad was the phenomena of taking dead hostages that I was witnessing.A convoy of this kind, is not a view you see every day.I am not a Hizb-alla fan.
But if we talk about Hizb-alla and pow’s…..What do you richard and the other intelligent readers think about Hannan Tannenbaum? The Asgari affaire reminded me of Tannenbaum. Why? because too much of this affair was censored in Israel. When he was captured. Nassralla gave a press conference and explained that he was a mossad agent and told the whole story how the Hizb-alla cleverly made him meet his trap.This was published in Yediot Aharonot of the day after and before the shops opened the whole edition was urgently collected from all the stores in Israel. Tannenbaum was presented to the Israeli public as a traitor as a drug dealer etc. I am sure that all this is not true.Tannenbaum was a mossad agent.
Interesting idea about Tannenbaum, this also explains why Arik Sharon was so keen to have him released for a large ransom against most opinions in the Israeli press who claimed that he was not worth the price as a drug dealer and a disgrace to Israel.
Also explains the deal made with him on his return that he would not be prosecuted for the drug dealing in response for his co-operation with the authorities in explaining all that he went through with Hizbollah.
Also explains how he disappeared into oblivion in Israel and never wrote a book on his experiences etc.
A nice theory indeed. However, he did not disappear, there was something on TV about him working as a taxi driver.
I have only heard that story too. I wonder if anyone has another version that is credible. I’d be curious to hear it.