78 thoughts on “Israeli Poll: 80% Support Democracy, 55% Support Limiting Free Speech…Go Figure – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. JUSTICE ISRAELI STYLE –
    Kids run over by settler leader questioned

    Police detain two of children caught on tape hurling stones at car of David Be’eri before being run over. Silwan man who threw stones in same incident indicted

    Ynet reporters
    Published: 10.17.10, 11:49 / Israel News

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    The police on Sunday detained for questioning two children documented hurling stones at the car of the chairman of an association working to settle Jews in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan.

    The father of Amran Mansour, 11, told Ynet that police officers had arrived at his home at 5:30 am. “They took him in for questioning at the Russian Compound, accusing him of throwing stones and hiding his face,” the father said. He added that the investigators clarified that Amran would be brought before a judge.

    Rude Welcome
    Silwan: Stones thrown at touring MKs / Roni Sofer
    Knesset’s State Control Committee members get rude welcome while touring east Jerusalem neighborhood; Internal Security Minister also visits area at same time, vows to put end to stone-throwing incidents
    Full story
    “They told us to prepare 2,000 shekels (about $560), apparently because he is supposed to be released on bail,” he said.

    According to Silwan residents, the arrest was aimed at intimidating the children and their families and preventing them from attending protests against Jews settling in the area.

    mansour, who was documented being run over by Be’eri, was hospitalized after the incident and denied hurling the stones. “I had just come out from the Friday prayer at the neighborhood’s protest tent when I saw a car driving straight towards me,” he claimed.

    Meanwhile Sunday, a Silwan resident was indicted Sunday for hurling stones at the car, belonging to Elad Chairman David Be’eri.

    According to the indictment – filed with the Jerusalem District Court against 21-year-old Muhammad Sharaf – Be’eri was travelling in the neighborhood with his 14-year-old son. As he reached a main junction, several young men – some of them veiled – began throwing stones at the car,

    The indictment added that “As David Be’eri increased the speed, in an attempt to avoid the stone throwers, the defendant threw a stone at the car, strongly.” As a result, the car’s rear and side windowpanes were smashed, the windshield was cracked and the car’s hood and doors were damaged.

    According to the State Prosecutor’s Office, Sharaf threw the stones with intention of hurting Be’eri and putting his life in danger. The court was asked to extend his remand until the completion of the legal proceedings.

    1. Can you believe that the Chairman of El Ad was in that car?? Leslie Stahl (60 Minutes) mentioned this fact in her piece tonight on the City of David project that is funded by El Ad.

      If that isn’t irony; I don’t know what is! This guy is responsible for so much ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

      http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6966854n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

      This bogus dig and theme park are a front for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Silwan.

      The Mayor of Jerusalem lies through his teeth in that interview with Leslie Stahl.

  2. Is limiting free speech always undemocratic? Europe (generally) has laws regarding Holocaust denial, which is illegal. It all depends on precisely what speech you wish to limit, which wasn’t specified in the poll.

    1. It all depends on precisely what speech you wish to limit, which wasn’t specified in the poll.

      Pure sophistry. You of course neglect the important phrase “non-security” related speech. In other words, speech that doesn’t threaten Israel’s security. Neither the pollsters nor the respondents were thinking of Holocaust denial when they posed & answered this question. They were thinking of political speech that was hostile to Israeli policy or presumably Israeli identity. In other words, they’re in favor of repressing speech that criticizes Israel, period. You know it & I know it. But for the sake of propaganda values you’ll deny it.

      1. Why don’t you rent me that crystal ball you’re watching?

        Perhaps you know that it means security related speech but I don’t. I don’t mind people talking about security, policy, interracial relations or whatnot and many agree with me. I do care about holocaust denial or incitement of violence. “We’re naqba victims” is one thing, “We’re naqba victims therefore let’s throw the jews into the sea” is entirely different.

        1. Perhaps you know that it means security related speech but I don’t

          You don’t need a crystal ball, the term “non security related speech” is right there in the Hebrew original. Is it too much to ask you to read your own press in yr own native language?? So again, 55% of Israelis are in favor of repressing speech that poses so security threat to Israel.

        2. “We’re naqba victims therefore let’s throw the jews into the sea” is entirely different.”

          Oh the ol’ “throw the jews into the sea” meme rears its ugly head again. It’s the perfect excuse for oppression, ethnic cleansing, the wall, two-tier justice, censorship and all manner of injustice against Palestinians.

          But tell me, who’s driving who off their land and into refugee camps? In the case of these words ACTIONS speak louder.

          1. During the 20th century, the Palestinian national movement was hardly peaceful. The Palestinian charter of 1968 called for “throwing the Jews into the sea” until 1993. Many of the Palestinians still try. You can’t blame the Jews for it.

            What means of defense were taken is a separate discussion, yet the Arabic attempt to end “the Zionist Entity” is a fact.

          2. Many of the Palestinians still try.

            What nonsense. What complete & utter nonsense. I think I’m going to set up a Hall of Shame for worst Hasbarist memes. This will be one of ’em.

            yet the Arabic attempt to end “the Zionist Entity” is a fact.

            I’d say the Israeli attempt to wipe out Palestinian claim to the land is not just a fact, but an incontrovertible one.

          3. During the 20th century the Jewish national movement was hardly peaceful, nor has it been any more peaceful so far in the 21st century. Not only that, but Jewish nationalists have, in fact, thrown Palestinians into the sea.

            The Palestinian Charter (sic) has never called for throwing anyone into the sea, nor does it make reference to doing any harm to Jews per se. As for the alleged Arab attempts to end the “Zionist entity” that, like the “throw the Jews into the sea” bit, is a fantasy of Zionist propagandists.

        3. Tell me again, who was it who suggested “throwing jews into the sea?” I’ve never been able to find any credible non-zionist source for that quote.

          1. To both you and Shirin:

            Article 19 (of the charter): “The partition of Palestine in 1947, and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time…”.

          2. # Yakov)
            “We’re naqba [nakba] victims therefore let’s throw the jews into the sea”
            “Throwing the Jews into the sea, BLABLABLABLA”

            Well, it takes one to know one, doesn’t it ??

            http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Picture1253.html
            http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Acre/Picture13753.html

            # Mary Hughes-Thompson)
            It was apparently part of the infamous messages back in 1948 on the Arab radios, you know, the ones asking the Palestinians to leave so the Arab armies could kill all the Jews.

  3. and then people here have the chutzpa to speak about israeli hasbara.
    first the video, so everyone can see for themselves what really happened, this was taken by al-jazera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYtllgWUobM&feature=related

    a bunch of kids – that were used by the press – ambushed an israeli car in the village of silwan, this was well orchestrated and that’s the reason you had so many media reporters on the place.

    the car drove and was attacked by stones, the kids had their face covered etc. the driver and his son were horrified, the driver stated that he feared that if he want get out of there he will be forced to using his gun, he kicked the gas pedal and got out of there.

    the little “angel” who got hurt said in the interview, i don’t know what happened, i went home and suddenly this bad man run all over me.
    http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3966600,00.html

    i know one thing, if my son will be throwing rocks at anyone’s property i would ground him myself, where are the child protective services in east Jerusalem to stop that cynical usage of kids by the village elders.

    two days later, a crew of media news channel 2 was attacked in a similar way in the same place.

    1. AriJay or the Zionist rewriting of an incident in Occupied Palestine.

      “I know one thing, if my son will be throwing rocks at anyone’s property, I would ground him myself”

      Yeah, the problem is just that this David Be’eri – a radical settler and one of the leaders of the Judaization of Eas-Jerusalem – was NOT on his property but in Occupied East-Jerusalem.

      You would knock your son to the ground if he stoned anyone’s property. Fine. What would you do if he participated in “collective stealing” of another people’s land and property ??

      Last week the Border Police killed a Palestinian from the West Bank trying to climb a fence to go back working in Israel. The stoned settler was lucky compared to this man.

    2. the driver and his son were horrified, the driver stated that he feared that if he want get out of there he will be forced to using his gun, he kicked the gas pedal and got out of there.

      Ah, yes, David Be’eri is an angel. The guy is a thug. Pure & simple. His attacking them with his car was attempted murder. He had every opportunity to remove himself fr. the supposedly threatening situation w/o running them over. Why wasn’t he arrested or even questioned? Because he runs security for the settler thugs in E. Jerusalem. A thug is a thug is a thug. And you’re aiding & abetting a thug. What does that make you?

      If you & your son were Palestinians & your home was stolen fr. you, YOU might be throwing rocks at David Be’eri. Or do you not remember Ehud Barak’s revealing comment that if he were Palestinian HE would be a militant?? Or did you forget that?

  4. Dear Mr. Yassin
    i don’t need to re-write anything, al-jazera took care of that, thank you very much. and between it is off topic (otherwise richard would have wrote about it himself) i got upset when i saw this one sided post by Nessim, let’s drop the subject.

    as for the border police killing a Palestinian climbing a fence, i have no idea where exactly the incident took place, but there is a wall built between Israel, and the future Palestinian state. Israel like any other sovereign state can decide who will get into it’s territory and who will be denied entrance. if you will try to enter many places in the world not via a checkpoint, you will end up as dead as he was.

    this is an area of conflict and innocent people should act. responsibly.

    1. The wall is not built ‘between Israel, and the future Palestinian state’, it is built on the land of the future Palestinian state. That is why it is has been designated as illegal. But I understand this is all completely new to you.

    2. # AriJay)
      I’ve seen the footage by ‘aljazeera’ too. In fact, you don’t really see what happened before the driver turned the corner. And once again, DAVID BE’ERI is a radical Jewish settler, president of El’ad (behind the development of IR David, a Jewish neighbourhood) and a resident himself of Silwan.

      “Israel like any other souvereign state can decide who will get into it’s territory . . . if you try to enter many places in the world . . you will end up dead as he was”.

      I read this as your approval of the Palestinian resistance against the expanding colonization of their land.

      “This is an area of conflict and innocent people should act responsibly”.
      And here you’ve acknowledged that David Be’eri had absolutely nothing to do in Occupied East-Jerusalem. Am I right ?

      But you never answered my question about your son participating in “collective stealing” of other people’s property.

      And I think I don’t have to ask you whether you’re among the 36% of Isreali Jews who want to revoke Arabs’ voting right. You have already stated on another file that according to you “people are not born equal”, so why the heck should they have the right to vote, right ?
      I might have drawn my conclusions too fast, and in this case I do apologize.

    3. Gee, since the wall is built on Palestinian land and in many ways divides them from schools, mosques, hospitals and their own farmland, maybe this guy wanted to take a short cut to HIS OWN LAND!

  5. @ elisabeth
    the fence for the most part is pretty much on the green line, in some place (Bilin being one of them) Israel deviated out of the line for various reasons mostly security related. but hey don’t let the facts to confuse you not even for one second.
    as the Palestinians are not even willing to negotiate, they are not willing to recognize UN 181 (nothing changed, they were unwilling do to so in 1947 either) there will be no Palestinian state in the near future, and that is unfortunately, as the Palestinians are nothing but a burden (morally and financially) on the state of Israel.

    1. That is quite simply a lie. The barrier cuts deeply into Occupied Palestine, cutting farmers out of their fields, shepherds out of their grazing land, people from their work and schools, and in some places cutting through the middle of towns and neighborhoods, separating neighbor from neighbor and family from family. And security has nothing to do with it. It is about stealing yet more land, and making life so untenable for non-Jews in Palestine that they will eventually leave in despair.

      And what is with this @soandso. Don’t you know the difference between a blog and Twitter?

      1. “@soundso” has been in common use on Usenet, IRC, and mailing lists since long before Twitter was born.
        If you don’t like it, don’t use it.

    2. the fence for the most part is pretty much on the green line

      You are either lying or one of the most ignorant Israeli Jews I know. The fence departs eastward from the Green Line in many places & absorbs a huge amt of Palestinian land. Simply huge. Look, I don’t know whether you’re playing dumb on subjects like this or whether you’re truly as ill informed as you come across. But pls. research yr claims before you make them & don’t make claims that stick out for lameness like a sore thumb. It really annoys me when people do that here.

      as the Palestinians are not even willing to negotiate

      I can always rely on you to make some statement that will make me almost spew my morning coffee. Palestinians are perfectly willing to not just to negotiate but sign a peace agreement on concensus terms as accepted by the international community: return to 67 borders, sharing Jerusalem, etc. It is Israel which refuses to negotiate on these commonly accepted terms & hence is the rejectionist & recalcitrant one.

      the Palestinians are nothing but a burden (morally and financially) on the state of Israel.

      I find this statement shocking, disgusting, false in its premise & all around repulsive. It’s just so wrong headed I hardly know where to begin. Look, you’re entitled to have racist notions. Really. But this isn’t the place to spew them. So if you need to do this you’ll have to find another place to do it. You will now be moderated. And if you persist your privileges will be restricted further.

    3. Why always hold this 1947 rejection by the Palestinians against them? That is more than 60 years ago, and they have suffered a lot since then, making them willing to let go of a lot of their (legitimate) claims.

      My main question to you is this: WOULD YOU YOURSELF, HAVING BEEN IN THEIR PLACE, HAVE ACCEPTED TO HAND OVER A SIGNIFICANT PART OF YOUR TERRITORY TO OUTSIDERS, no matter how much these people had suffered in a faraway place at the hands of others?

      That would have been an extraordinary act of altruism, unprecedented in human history, DON´T YOU THINK?

      And would they have received gratitude for this extraordinary generosity, or do you think they would have been marginalized as they have been anyway?

      I always wonder at the lack of empathy with the position of the Palestinians in different periods of history by many Israeli’s.

      And as to the supposed ´acceptance’ of the plan the Jewish leadership, I quote here from Jerome slater’s article on Mondoweiss: The UN compromise partition plan was rejected by the Palestinians, but supposedly accepted by David Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leadership.
      However, (…) the evidence is irrefutable that Ben-Gurion “accepted” the plan and sold it to his reluctant co-leadership, solely as a temporary tactic to allow the Zionists to gain a foothold, from which they would build a state and powerful military forces that could later expand and take over all of historical Palestine—the West Bank, all of Jerusalem, and even parts of Lebanon, Syria, and Transjordan.
      Here, in Ben-Gurion’s own words, was his plan. In a 1937 letter to his son, he wrote:
      “A partial Jewish state is not the end, but only the beginning. The establishment of such a Jewish State will serve as a means in our historical efforts to redeem the country in its entirety….We shall organize a modern defense force…and then I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors or by some other means….We will expel the Arabs and take their places…with the force at our disposal.”
      And in early 1949 Ben-Gurion told his aides: “Before the founding of the state, on the eve of its creation, our main interest was self-defense….But now the issue at hand is conquest, not self-defense. As for setting the borders—it’s an open-ended matter. In the Bible as well as in history there are all kinds of definitions of the country’s borders, so there’s no real limit.”

    4. “in some place (Bilin being one of them) Israel deviated out of the line for various reasons mostly security related”

      Can you be any more disingenuous? Security-related, my eye! Just another excuse for stealing 10% more Palestinian land.

      AND, here’s another gem: “Palestinians are nothing but a burden (morally and financially) on the State of Israel.”

      Sounds like “pearls of wisdom” straight out of the reichstag circa 1933.

      1. Israel deviated out of the line for various reasons mostly security related

        I agree, utter nonsense. First AriJay says there are only minor deviations fr. the Green Line. When he’s caught out on that he tries a slightly diff. tack: yes, there are more than minor deviations fr. the Green line but the deviations are justified by security considerations. Security my arse. In Bilin the fence steals the land and gives it to upscale Israeli towns built by Lev Leviev for a hefty profit for his real estate development company. What security?

  6. Shirin, don’t talk so much look at a map. and please show the map for everyone benefit.
    and please show a map of the 1967 green line.

    1. Israeli NGOs have shows conclusively that the Separation Wall takes in at least 15% of the potential territory of Palestine. In other words, it departs from the Green Line & absorbs that amt of territory that is east of the Green Line. Can you imagine Israel agreeing to give 15% of the Negev to Egypt for no reason & nothing in return? Of course not. So don’t tell us to look at a map. BTW, here is the map you were too lazy to find. You do a basic simply GOogle search before you peddle bull@(&t here.

    2. I have seen some very detailed maps. That is how I know that the barrier is not on the green line. I have also seen photographs. In addition I have heard from people who have seen it, and Palestinians who live with it. So maybe it is YOU who should look at a map.

  7. @ Dir Yasin
    1. the identity of the driver has nothing to do with it, unless you are going to admit, that the kids actually tailed the guy and knew that he was the one who was driving in the vehicle but then it wouldn’t be a spontaneous incident would it ?
    2. Silwan is a bad example, as actually the Jewish settlers there has valid paperwork showing ownership. (between you and I, it was a stupid decision by the Israeli supreme court to recognize these papers, but that’s another subject)
    3. I am sorry to be the one to tell you that, in 1947 the Palestinians chose not to accept the division plan, they tried to force the Jews out of the land and lost, so since they didn’t accept 181, and are not willing to accept it today, the term Palestinian land, is up to negotiations, which they refuse to participate in. and before you bring 242, israel would be extremely happy if the Jordanian would be willing to take the land back, they are not.
    4. you are absolutely right, despite right of ownership, in very similar terms to what the EU court ruled about the Cypriot Greeks, personally i do not believe that Jewish people should reside in east Jerusalem as citizens of Israel, but they are there according to the israeli law. and so is the Arab residents of silowan who are by the way are recipient of social services, municipal services and other type services from the Jerusalem municipality and the State of Israel. if the arabs residents in silown would like surrender their israeli citizenship / permanent resident status (and i can look at the registry and tell you how many arab citizens are residing in silowen) they would have to surrender all these perks, you think they would agree ? i doubt that.
    5. no i don’t want to revoke arab voting rights, i do think however that Israeli-Arabs as being part of the state of israel, should do an equal service to the 3 years we all do in the military. i am not naive and i understand that some of them do not want to serve in the Jewish army (some of them do, and i am talking Muslims, not Bedouin or Druz) they need to do community service instead, and they were even offered to do community service in their communities, they refuse to date. same goes to most religious orthodox Jews. in my opinion anyone who wants rights should contribute his share in the responsibilities.

    1. ” AriJay)
      Your paragraphe no. 3 is just plain Hasbara. Please don’t get me into a discussion on the 1947 Partition Plan. I’m sure Richard would consider it OFF topic, is has been discussed here hundred of times and your statements have been debunked the same number of times.
      Just a little reminder:
      http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/how-we-missed-out-on-the-swiss-option-1.234249

      Yeah, the Palestinians with Israeli nationality SHOULD serve in the Israeli army. You could send them off to the West Bank to beat up their Palestinians brothers on the other side of the Green Line. Wouldn’t that be great !

    2. the identity of the driver has nothing to do with it

      It has EVERYTHING to do w. it. These are residents of Silwan. They know the identity of the cars of the settler leaders & certainly would target them.

      as actually the Jewish settlers there has valid paperwork showing ownership

      No they don’t. The settlers don’t “own” anything in East Jerusalem. They have stolen it by brute force & the Supreme Court has merely ratified the thuggery.

      the term Palestinian land, is up to negotiations, which they refuse to participate in

      This is a lie and you’ve repeated it a 2nd time. So you’ve broken the comment rules twice over. If you make statements that are propaganda & have no bearing on truth, you stand to have yr comment privileges further restricted.

      they are there according to the israeli law

      They are thieves & if Israeli law recognizes thievery then it is a state based on the law of the jungle. International law does not recognize this chicanery, & rightfully so.

      Arab residents of silowan who are by the way are recipient of social services, municipal services and other type services from the Jerusalem municipality and the State of Israel.

      Yr ignorance is breathtaking. Arab residents of Silwan have nothing to do with Israeli law. Israel law didn’t allow them or approve their residence there. They predated Israeli law as they’ve lived there for generations if not longer. As for municipal services, again laughable. You know nothing about this matter. Israel provides NO municipal services to East Jerusalem. No garbage collection, no police, so sewer, nothing. It may here & there throw a few meager bones in terms of services. But it spends almost nothing on E. Jerusalem Palestinians esp. compared to W. Jerusalem Jews.

      arabs residents in silown would like surrender their israeli citizenship

      More ignorance. Palestinian residents of E. Jerusalem are not Israeli citizens. Israel annexed Jerusalem but did not give those annexed citizenship.

      some of them do, and i am talking Muslims

      You must’ve missed the Palestinian Israeli citizen who volunteered & was accepted into an elite IDF unit–until they discovered that she was Palestinian, at which pt they revoked her acceptance into the unit. There may be all of 100 Israeli Palestinians who serve in the IDF who are not Druze or Bedouin. If you want to require them to serve then make the country one that includes them & grants them equal rights & privileges. Then they will & should serve.

      anyone who wants rights should contribute his share in the responsibilities.

      What rights are you offering Israeli Palestinians in return for such service? The right not to be expelled fr. their homes at least temporarily? What other real rights are you offering them? Don’t make us laugh w. these nonsense arguments.

  8. @ Dir ,
    as i said i am not naive, but what about community service in their communities ? why do they refuse that ?
    so getting Israeli social security yes, and community service no ? i guess this is a true equal sharing of the burden (Israeli-Arab and Orthodox-Israeli style) by the way just so you’ll know Israel gives all of it’s citizen child support, both those sectors the israeli-arabs and the orthodox jews are giving birth to many kids (god bless all of them) both sectors do not participate equally in society. so me as a secular jew, who pay taxes all my life carry those two types of parasites on my back.

    1. # AriJay]
      What’s all this got to do with the poll stating that 36 % of Israeli Jews want to revoke Arabs’ voting rights.

      And you don’t have to tell me anything about the living conditions of Palestinians in the State of Israel. My maternal family is from Akka, and I still have relatives there, luckier than my grand-parents who never managed to see their homeland before dying in exile. So don’t talk to me about “Arab parasites that you want to get off your back”.

    2. I’m now imposing the daily 3 comment rule on you. Commenters who tend to monopolize the comment threads have this limit imposed on them so they don’t dominate discussion. You may publish 3 comments on any day. Not more. If you observe the limit I will relax it. But you don’t get to monopolize discussion w. such a massive number of comments. It’s not fair to others & skews the discussion.

    3. carry those two types of parasites on my back.

      I find this comment offensive. I have no problem w. you feeling frustrated by what you perceive. But that word is offensive esp. in the context of the Palestinians. If you want to call a Jew a parasite that’s your own problem. But it’s deeply racist to do so regarding Palestinians.

    4. LOOOL! AriJay wants us to believe that Palestinians receive such poor services compared to Jews from the government of The Jewish State because they refuse it, and not because it is refused to them. Very funny.

    1. In a “non-security” situation they are in favor of limits to free speech. They’re not talking about shouting “Fire” in a crowded theater. They’re talking about repression of free speech for no legitimate reason other than a political one. No true democracy has such limits.

      1. Could you explain why Be’eri is a “thug” when he lives in a house purchased legally with money in Silwan, but someone like “progressive” Bernard Avishai (I assume you know who he is) who is one of the leaders of the demonstrations against the Jews in Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan who admittedly lives in a formerly Arab house in west Jerusalem whose owner either fled or was run out of town in 1948 not by Bible-quoting “settlers” but rather by Marx-quoting PALMACHniks, is NOT a “thug”?

        1. David Be’eri is willing to kill and run over Palestinians. Bernard Avishai is not. That’s why Be’eri is a thug and Avishai isn’t.

          The theft of Palesitnian homes in Silwan is not “legal” in any sense that I, most Israelis or the rest of the world accept. It’s a violation of international law pure & simple. And it will not stand in the long run.

        2. I’m sure Bernard Avishai, who lives in a house that belonged to an Arab family which fled in the Nakba, understands that if Israelis claim Palestinian homes and land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, then close to a million Palestinians and their offspring have a LEGAL claim on his home and every other home that belonged to an Arab prior to 1947. And how do you justify not returning them to their legally-owned homes??

          Just a “tiny” inconvenient legal detail that settlers choose to ignore.

          1. I should add this in quotes: Palestinians….have a LEGAL claim on his home and every other home “in West Jerusalem and other Israeli cities” that once “legally” belonged to an Arab prior to 1947.

          2. Everyone seems to be confused here. The situation in Silwan is NOT like Sheikh Jarrah. The Jews in Silwan, all of them, purchased the houses they live in. How is it against “international law” for Jews to buy property anywhere, regardless of future political disposition of the territories they are on?

  9. Richard, you are wrong:
    from mmariv:
    ו”ר עמותת אלע”ד, דוד בארי, נחקר באזהרה בחשד שדרס היום (ו’) שני צעירים פלסטינים שיידו אבנים על מכוניתו בעת שנסע בשכונת סילוואן שבירושלים, שבה הוא מתגורר עם משפחתו. שני הצעירים נפצעו באורח קל ופונו לבית החולים אלמוקאסד במזרח העיר. בתום חקירתו, שבה הודה בארי בדריסה אך טען כי לא עשה זאת בכוונה, הוא שוחרר בערבות.

    he was arrested, questioned and released on bail.
    and as for the moral and financial burden don’t play dumb, ruling another nation takes a huge moral and financial toll on the residents of Israel, what wasn’t clear on that statement ?

    @dir Yasin, any sector who takes but doesn’t give back is a parasite, and yes that includes, Israeli orthodox jews and Israeli-arabs, i am so sorry it offends you, but that is the reality.

    1. Let’s look at the punishment that ea. party receives. Let me know if Be’eri spends a night in jail or pays a shekel in fines for his mayhem. You can be damn sure the Palestinians will.

      i am so sorry it offends you, but that is the reality.

      Calling a Palestinian a “parasite” may be yr reality, but not mine. And you won’t do it again here.

    2. ruling another nation takes a huge moral and financial toll on the residents of Israel

      So, we are supposed to feel sorry for the poor Israelis for this terrible burden they have by ruling another nation? Ruling. Hmmmm. Is THAT what you call it? Funny, most people have another name for it.

    3. # AriJay)
      You don’t offend me at all. I would only use the verb ‘offend’ if someone for whom I care said things that hurt me. I don’t care about you, so your statements don’t offend me. You have no moral integrity – and I’m only judging by what I’ve read here.

      “Any sector who takes but doesn’t give back is a parasite”

      You mean like the Bulgarian or Rumanian Jews who took over my grand-father’s medical practice and his house in Akka, and slammed the door in the face of my cousin when he once wanted to see the house.

      You mean the whole state of Israel then, built on the ruins of other people’s villages, orchards and fields. ‘Parasites’, yeah, you make me laugh, you don’t even realize how immoral you are. You could never pay back what you owe to the Palestinians, even if they all stopped working and lived off your social aids for the next 2 centuries.

      You owe them a lot, but first of all, you owe them an excuse for what has been done to them.

      1. Another story Deir Yassin:
        My mother met a Palestinian woman at Bir Zeit, who also went back with family members to see the house that had once belonged to their family. In her case the door was not slammed in their face. Quite the contrary: They were courteously shown around the house by the new owners who proudly pointed out all the authentic details.
        One of those authentic details, as they were stunned to find out, was the fact that the beautifully framed pictures of their grandparents were still hanging on the wall.
        They were, naturally, quite moved and asked if they could please take the pictures back to their family, as they were after all of their own grandparents. The answer they received was again perfectly friendly: “Oh no, that would be such a pity; these pictures fit in perfectly with the Arabic atmosphere and architecture of the house.”

  10. Yakov says:

    To both you and Shirin:

    Article 19 (of the charter): “The partition of Palestine in 1947, and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time…”.

    Are you misunderstanding me or just employing the usual hasbara? I’m talking about the words: throw the Jews into the sea? Please be specific.

    1. “throw the Jews into the sea” became a figure of speech with an obvious meaning so I quoted (one of) the appropriate articles of the Palestinian charter. However, after some digging, I’ve managed to locate the apparent source: What actually have been said is “Men to the sea – Women to us”. The sources I’ve found (on http://www.e-mago.co.il, hebrew only but Richard could translate) disagree on who actually said that – either Ahmad Shukeiri or Ahmed Sayed (not sure about the spelling) who was than (prior to the six-day war) on the Sout-Al-Arab, the Egyptian state run propaganda radio station.

      Here’s another quote from that Nasserist radio station, on the first day of the six-day war:
      אזרחים – בשם הכבוד, בשם המולדת הערבית הגיבורה, בשם ההיסטוריה, העבר והעתיד: אנו נכנסים היום למערכת החירות, הגבורה, הכבוד והגאולה. נעמוד בפני התוקפנות של ישראל ונחסל אותה, וזאת כדי להסיר את הכתם של הקיום הציוני האימפריאליסטי. אחים חיילים חופשיים בעזה, בסיני, ובשארם א-שייח. אחים גיבורים בירדן ובסוריה-עלו על תל אביב”
      with a rough translation:
      “Citizens: in the name of honor, in the name of the Arab homeland, in the name of history, past and future: We enter a campaign of freedom, bravery, honor and redemption. We’ll stand against Zionist aggression AND DESTROY IT, to erase the stain of the Zionist, imperialist EXISTENCE. Free brothers in Gaza,Sinai and Sharem. Brave brothers in Jordan and Syria – RISE ONTO TEL-AVIV”.

      capitalization is naturally mine, for emphasis.

      You don’t trust the source? This was recorded on tape, which can probably be located.

      1. So what you’re claiming is NOT as you originally said that the PLO’s founding charter calls for throwing the Jews into the sea, but that 1 radio broadcast for which you’re not presenting original recordings said such a thing. Which proves what? That two individuals broadcast such statements many decades ago on Egypt state media?

        Do you not think if I went back over tape recordings of Israeli state media I could find similarly noxious statements broadcast? So what does it prove? That there are racist, noxious individuals on both sides.

      2. @ Yakov
        I’m not interested in your “figures of speech.” There are a lot of these to be found in zionist hasbara. The only people who seem to talk about “the Jews” are zionists such as yourself. Can you please give me a direct quote to a non-zionist threatening to throw Jews into the sea?

        No? Of course you can’t.

        1. I can’t. But I really don’t need to. I can quote Nasrallah, Mash’al and Ahmadinejad all day long. They all speak about putting an end to Israel. This and throwing the Jews into the sea is the same to me.

          1. # Yakov)
            I left you two link on an answer further up the file. It might interest you, as far as ‘throwing in the sea’ is concerned.

          2. They all speak about putting an end to Israel.

            Not Ahmedinejad & I’d be willing to bet not Meshal. You’re wrong on 2 out of 3. If you continue making false claims you’ll be moderated.

  11. Oh yes, you do need to, if you’re going to continue making such false accusations. Criticizing Israel (which I do myself on a daily basis) and wishing for an end to zionist (which I do myself on a daily basis) isn’t at all the same as throwing “the Jews” into the sea. The racism is all yours I’m afraid.

    1. @Mary: The purpose of the existence of modern-day Israel is Jewish independence and self-determination which is the essence of Zionism. Ending the Zionist idea is equivalent to throwing the Jews into the sea.

      @Deir Yassin: I’ve seen the photographs you’ve provided and than a few more on the same website. While they do show people on boats, they show no sign of coercion. Moreover, explain please how Acre, Jaffa, Haifa and Lod retain part of the Arab population after what you would call “ethnic cleansing”?

      1. Not at all, though having read many of your posts I can understand your inability to grasp the difference. As I said, however, you have been unable to substantiate your claim that anybody except zionists ever suggested driving Jews into the sea. Just more hyperbole used to try deceiving decent people into believing the tired old bs about Israel being a tiny defenseless peace-loving state surrounded by hordes of enemies. Fortunately the myth is being exploded at a phenominal speed, hastened by Israel’s attacks on Lebanon, on Gaza and more recently on unarmed passengers on board the Mavi Marmara and other boats of the Freedom Flotilla. Israel is increasingly being recognized as an occupier, land stealer, ethnic cleanser and war monger. I don’t blame you for being defensive.

        1. I wonder what kind of evidence would you accept? I’ve defined clearly that was it understood as “driving jews into the sea” is defeating Zionism and you agree that there is such a movement. You think Jews don’t have a right to self-determination, I think they do. We agree to disagree.

          As for your opinion about Israel aggressiveness, your dislike of Zionism itself blinds you to the outright lies some of the Arabs around Israel tell. You automatically consider everything they say to be true and everything Israel says to be false which is just as wrong as the reverse.

          From your posts, It’s apparent you have the same reasoning as the ultra-right wing settlers, the hilltop youth of whom I’m sure you’ve heard. The content is different of course, but your ideological absolutism is much the same.
          “The Zionists are Evil” is a lot like “All the Arabs are the same”

      2. The purpose of the existence of modern-day Israel is Jewish independence and self-determination which is the essence of Zionism.

        No, not at all. The purpose of Israel is to be a democratic state representing ALL its citizens, not just the Jewish.

        Ending the Zionist idea is equivalent to throwing the Jews into the sea.

        Stuff & nonsense. For you ending the Zionist idea means ending Jewish supremacy, ending settlements, ending Occupation. All of this could be done away with & there still could be a democratic, progressive version of Zionism, one that can co exist peacefully with the Palestinian minority & fully respect its rights. But it would be one that would make yr stomach turn. Which is prob. why it will be the one that ends up prevailing in the future.

        Moreover, explain please how Acre, Jaffa, Haifa and Lod retain part of the Arab population after what you would call “ethnic cleansing”?

        Don’t bother…this is mere provocation. A huge percentage of the then Palestinian population of Israel was expelled. Are you asking us to be pleased that Israel didn’t ethnically cleanse the entire population? If so, we’re not going to join in a parade on behalf of Israel’s magnanimity in its treament of the Palestinian minority. And no one owes you an explanation about anything so don’t challenge anyone to explain anything. I find such challenges to be annoying & provocative.

        1. “No, not at all. The purpose of Israel is to be a democratic state representing ALL its citizens, not just the Jewish”

          By your reasoning, Israel should be a miniature copy of the United States. Why bother than? Why not just live there or in some other Western (or otherwise) country as Jews have done for the past 2000 years?

          Zionism has nothing to do with settlements and the occupation. As for Jewish supremacy, it depends on exactly what you mean by that. For example, would your modern version of Zionism include the law of return?

          1. Israel should be a miniature copy of the United States.

            Not at all. THe U.S. is much diff. than the Israel I would envision. THe role of religion in Israel would be quite diff. than in the U.S. It would play a role in the state & lives of its citizens not played by religion (at least overtly) in the U.S. But no religion would predominate.

            Zionism has nothing to do with settlements and the occupation.

            That flies in the face of the Greater Land of Israel & all the Israelis who founded the settlement movement. And I remind you at one time it had the endorsement of virtually the entire Israeli people (except for a few diehards like me). So settlements & Occupation go hand in hand with latter day Zionism as practiced by the elected leaders of your country. It may not be yr Zionism or mine, but it’s theirs & they unfortunately rule.

            I would amend the Law of Return so it could only be invoked for automatic citizenship by someone facing a real threat of persecution for being Jewish. But the Law of Return should also apply to desendants of Arab refugees who fear persecution as well. Otherwise, Israel should have a regular immigration system like all democracies w. provisions for becoming a citizen.

      3. # Yakov)
        “While they do show people on boats, they show no sign of coercion”
        %#@$£ !!!!
        You know, there are some particularly disgusting people who’ve already said that kind of things, just a little differently:

        “While they show people on trains [heading eastward in 1943], they show no sign of coercion”.

        Where I live, they usually lose their job and social position, and that’s a very fine thing.

        People who left on a boat without nothing else than the clothes on their back and who never returned home, of course left voluntarily ! They just fell so in love with Lebanon that they abandoned everything.

        You are a perfect example of Israeli ‘collective blindness’.

        1. It’s likely that most of them or at least some, left voluntarily. The Arab Liberation Army’s encouragements to leave are a fact.

          As for their property, they should be compensated.

          As for your tasteless comparison with the Holocaust, need I remind you that Palestinians left to friendly Arab territories or other countries, willingly or not. Not to mention most were not physically harmed.

          1. It’s likely that most of them or at least some, left voluntarily.

            Oh sure. And you have proof of this, how? What legitimate credible source claims this? Don’t be a fool. They were expelled. Those who left and were not physically forced to do so, even they left under psychological threat. they knew about Deir Yassin, they knew what could happen to them if they stayed.

            need I remind you that Palestinians left to friendly Arab territories or other countries

            Yeah, sure they did. To Lebanon where when they weren’t slaughtered were treated like dirt. And to Jordan where they were slaughtered during Black September. Very friendly reception. And these were the countries that accepted them!

            most were not physically harmed.

            You mean aside fr. the women that were raped (see Morris), and the hundreds who were killed in places like Deir Yassin & other massacres?? Other than that everything was OK?

            You are offering the stupidest, lamest arguments. And the entire topic is off topic anyway. Pls don’t waste our time w. stuff I call blah, blah. Nonsense talking pts of the Hasbara community.

  12. except for the united states of america, every democracy limit speech rights…including our neighbors to the north

    and we are not just talking security reasons

    so im not sure what the fuss is all about

    1. Don’t you bother to read the comment threads? Someone posted virtually the same comment. It’s really tiresome to have to respond twice. This poll question explicitly asked whether the respondent favored limiting “non security related” speech. In other words, speech that could not be perceived as a threat to the state. That would cover such things as Israeli Palestinians supporting greater rights, Adalah’s proposal for an Israeli democratic constitution, etc. THIS is the sort of speech 55% of Israelis favor suppressing. And virtually no western democracy limits such speech. None. And before you go off half-cocked find the earlier comment & don’t repeat verbatim arguments already made & rebutted.

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