102 thoughts on “Hamas Terror Attack Unmasks Fatal Weakness of Peace Talks – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
task-attention.png
Comments are published at the sole discretion of the owner.
 

  1. The only democratic action ever committed By hamas was deciding which PLO member they should kill next during their hostile takeover of the Gaza strip in 2007, killing about 50 PLO members few civilians including 2 UN employees.
    and you think that these type of atrocities grant them anything ? Abu-Mazen, the Saudi King, The Jordanian King, The Egyptian president, they all think differently.

    1. This is mindless, utterly vapid stupidity. We’re here to engage in serious debate & discussion. If all you’re interested in is stupid grandstanding & point scoring I can recommend 10 or 20 sites to spend your time at. If you really can engage in debate at a higher level than this, then you’re welcome to remain. If not, you’ll be moderated or lose yr privileges.

      Did you leave aside all the Hamas members killed & tortured by Mohammed Dahlan in Gaza & elsewhere which fueled the Gaza bloodbath? Oh you did? Why is that?

      You’re utterly wrong about the Saudis & Jordanians. Only Mubarak among those you listed actually hates Hamas, because of its putative bonds w. the Muslim Brotherhood & its potential threat to his regime.

      1. Serious debate ? i guess that means you are going to stop all you nasty remarks and insult right ?

        you are wrong about the Saudi stands on the matter
        the Saudi’s publicly blamed Hamas for breaking the mecca agreement, for operation cast lead, and for not uniting under PLO leadership.
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/01/saudi-arabia-hamas-gaza

        Though the Jordanian are generally keeping a low profile, (maybe because 70% of Jordanian population are Palestinians?) they announced the same in many occasions.

        Extreme Islam which hamas represents is a threat to any moderate Muslim state such as Jordan Egypt and others, The Saudi main issue with hamas as to do with Hamas being an Iranian proxy.

        1. Stop worrying about “nasty remarks” & start using yr brain. Make sense. Don’t spout talking pts or propaganda.

          You’re utterly wrong about the Saudis. They in fact attempted to mediate a Fatah-Hamas reconciliation. THey didn’t blame Hamas for the failure. Ian Black is the one who interpreted the following statement as being anti Hamas. However, the actual substance of the statement is very much open to interpretation:

          “This terrible massacre would not have happened if the Palestinian people were united behind one leadership,” Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal told the Palestinians.

          “Your Arab brothers cannot extend to you the hand of real help, if you do not extend the hand of affection to each other,” he added, urging Hamas and Fatah to form a national unity government.

          Hamas is not “extreme Islam” & you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Extreme Islam is Al Qaeda or Wahabism, none of whose extremism Hamas approaches.

        2. So why did Israel govt support hamas against fatah in the first place then? Why did Israel govt arm Iran against secular Saddam?

      2. “Thanks to the foolhardy campaign of isolation against Hamas engineered by Israel and the U.S., Hamas believes the only way to make its voice heard is through the barrel of a gun.”

        Sorry Rich,

        Above you clearly place the blame for Hamas murder on Israel and the USA polcies. Not sure how you can read this any other way. Rather than insult me, try answering me. I find its a better way to debate.

        All the best

        Frank

        1. Above you clearly place the blame for Hamas murder on Israel

          “Rich,” is not my name Frankie. I’ll trust you to use my proper name & I’ll use yours.

          Above I do NOT clearly blame Israel. I blame a number of factors including the actual killers for the deed. But I wouldn’t expect you to understand the nuance since people like you don’t read carefully or clearly & the world is black & white. I’ll insult you until you learn to read. When you do & prove it, then you’ll be treated more civilly. I don’t treat people well who deliberately misread my real views. YOu’ll be treated w. precisely the same level of respect you accord to me.

          1. Sorry Richie, didn’t realize you were so sensitive.

            So its okay to insult those who can’t read !

            Please be so kind as to point out the sentences in your article that blame Hamas ?

            Thanks

            Frankie

          2. You’re banned a(^hole. And you can take your own name & shove it.

            I don’t suffer fools or snarks gladly. And you picked the wrong person to try to tangle with. Next time, behave respectfully & people will treat you respectfully. Don’t & you won’t.

  2. simple question

    do you separate the hamas military wing from the political wing?

    if you do…then please explain how their can ever be peace or even negotiations

    1. Of course I do. There can be peace for the same reason that there is now peace in Northern Ireland & any number of places which had guerilla movements which shared political wings. The only reason negotiations will fail is because Israel is unwilling. Not the other side. BTW, the IDF is Israel’s military wing just as Hamas has one. Virtually no difference. And the IDF has almost as much independence fr. the political echelon as the Hamas military wing has fr. the political wing. Go munch on that one for a while…

      1. and here is where we disagree

        there is little comparison between northern ireland and israel

        and really…the idf is as independent as hamas terror groups?

        tell me richard, when was the last prosecution in gaza or the west bank of a terror suspect?

        1. there is little comparison between northern ireland and israel

          Sure there is. Hamas has a political & military wing just as Sinn Fein was the political wing of the IRA, which also had a military wing. Despite this, there is now peace in N. Ireland. By little comparison, you mean you can’t rebut my own rebuttal of yr claim that there can be no peace if Hamas is divided into political & military wings.

          I didn’t say the IDF is absolutely & irrevocably independent of political control. I said that it was largely independent. Sure, the IDF acquiesces in a small number of prosecutions in order to mollify the Israeli populace which blanches at some of the horrible actions of the IDF. But they do this in order to protect their independence, not in order to make themselves truly accountable.

          1. sorry richard, even judge goldstone disagrees with you regarding the separation of the political and military arms of hamas

            and if the idf is largely independent of the political government, can you show me the one post you have ever written where you do not condemn both for actions committed by the idf?

          2. even judge goldstone disagrees with you regarding the separation of the political and military arms of hamas

            I’m not prepared to accept yr characterization of what anyone says, let alone Richard Goldstone. So if you have a statement of his you want to produce do so. Don’t tell me what you say someone says because I simply won’t trust or believe you.

            Anyone who knows anything about Hamas knows that the political & military wings are largely separate as they are in most similar insurgency situations. The political wing (that is, those inside Gaza) don’t control the military wing at all. You might say that those in Damascus control the military wing & have a say in the political wing as well. But I’m talking about those on the ground in Gaza who actually rule. Those political leaders have little or no control or coordination w. the military wing.

  3. Terrorist attacks are not necessarily desigend to derail the peace talks. The Al-Aqsa Martyr’s brigade carried out IIRC most of the big suicide bombings during the big wave of terror in the years 2000-2003, and they are NOT HAMAS, but rather part of Arafat’s FATAH. They viewed terrorist attacks as a way to encourage Israeli concessions, and they succeeded, paving the way for Sharon decided to destroy Gush Katif.

    1. More malarkey. Sharon didn’t withdraw fr. Gaza in order to make concessions to the Palestinians. He did it for his own political reasons & calculations. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

      1. What difference does it make why Sharon decided to get out of Gaza ? he decided we got out of Gaza, and i don’t see much development there since, do you ?
        while in the west bank the PA under PM fiad is engage in building a future and establishing some sore of economical structure, hamas is not engaged in the same in Gaza.

        .

        1. You know, every time you open yr mouth you embarrass yrself by proving you haven’t a clue what Palestinian reality is. Why DO you think there has been no significant development in Gaza? Because that was the choice of Hamas or the people of Gaza?? Ummm, let me give you one guess why the situation there is as dire as it is: Israel & its blockade. If you think for a minute without an Israeli blockade that Gaza wouldn’t be developing at the same or higher rate than West Bank you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          I’d encourage you to keep up the nonsense to discredit yr pt of view but I know I don’t need to do that–you’ll continue even w/o my encouragement. So go to it.

          1. http://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=522374

            there is a very nice presentation there, showing the true colors of Gaza and the influence of the blockade. i know Gaza better then you, i served there, those buildings didn’t exist 5 years ago. the PA authority didn’t build them. if there was an option i would have uploaded this great PPT for everyone to view.

            and furthermore genius, if Israel is the distinction between the relative prosperity in the west bank and the depression in the Gaza strip why is that ? we like PLO and we hate Hamas ? we are racist but only towards hamas and not PLO ? the answer is because the PLO in the west bank made other choices. as simple as that. you don’t like it, but that’s the reality.
            thanks for proving my point.

          2. i know Gaza better then you, i served there

            You served there in the IDF & you think you know Gaza & Gazans??? How deluded you are. You know Gaza as an occupying army knows those it occupies. You don’t know anything.

            if Israel is the distinction between the relative prosperity in the west bank and the depression in the Gaza strip why is that ? we like PLO and we hate Hamas ?

            No, you don’t like the PLO. You don’t like any Palestinians. But you certainly do hate Hamas & that is why you’ve blockaded the Strip and strangled Gazan development thus allowing the W. Bank to progress somewhat in comparison.

            thanks for proving my point.

            You NEVER prove yr pt here & I would hardly dream of proving it for you. And you’re rapidly moving toward moderation & potential banning if you keep up in the same vein.

          3. According to Save the Children and other humanitarian organizations, the poverty in the West Bank is in certain places ever worse than in Gaza.

            Why ? I don’t have a cristal ball and do lack ‘Delta’s sociological insight and his intimate knowledge of the Palestinian territory and mind (lol), but I would think it has something to do with a corrupted, coopted and ‘entrepreneurial’ PA vs a well-organised Islamic organisation who, whatever people might think of them, is serving the Gazan people more than their own political careers.

            http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/201062916845576597.html

          4. The reasons for poverty in parts of the West Bank are primarily the same reasons that cause poverty in Gaza: restrictions on the movement of goods and people by the Israeli authorities.

            “A food security and nutrition survey jointly carried out by the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP), the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), has found unusually high levels of food insecurity and malnutrition among herder and Bedouin communities living in the Israeli-controlled Area C of the West Bank.” […] “The study found that 79% of the surveyed Bedouin and local Palestinian herders in Area C, are food insecure as compared to the 25% of households in the West Bank. The level of food insecurity for these herding communities is even higher than in the Gaza Strip (61%).” Food Security and
            Nutrition Survey of Herding Communities In Area C – April 2010; UNRWA, WFP, Unicef

            “Food insecurity among Area C herder communities is closely related to the severe restrictions imposed by the Israeli authorities on access to grazing land and natural water resources, compounded by frequent droughts, which have led to an unsustainable reliance on purchased fodder and tankered water.” The Humanitarian Monitor – February 2010; OCHA oPt

    1. None other than Ehud Barak has conceded that if he was Palestinian he would be a miltant as well. So in many ways Hamas is doing what any good nationalist movement would do in protecting its interests & rights. However, I personally can’t concede that civilian murder is the best path to follow.

      1. If I were Palestinian I’d demand full and equal human rights in Jordan and Lebanon and become a friend and supporter of Israel.

        1. @ Shai
          That’s a little bit like if they asked you to get the f… off and go back to where you came from, the shtetls of Eastern Europe, Paris, Brooklyn or whatever, isn’t it ??

          In fact, you are asking the Palestinians to ethnically cleanse themselves from Palestine !
          At least, it shines a certain light to whatever you’ll write from now on, you’re just another right-wing, ethnocentric Hasbara spinner ! Weren’t you the one who pretended he wanted to go meeting the Palestinians in the West Bank, or that was another Shai ?

          PS. ‘Shai’ means ‘nothing’ in Arabic, it fits you well !

        2. Well Shai Palestinians could say: If I were an Israeli Jew I would move back to East Europe, USA, Iran, Iraq etc and become a friend and supporter of Arabs and Muslims.

          It is easy now to condemn Palestinian resistance movements and forget completely the bloody history of Jewish terrorism before independence and the increasingly violent and bloody oppression since then. You tried then to “liberate” the land for yourself using terrorism and now you are blaming the opposite side for using the same methods in order to keep the little you have left to them.

          Surely killing civilians is wrong, but let us remember that Israel has killed far more women and children than Palestinians have. The difference is that Israeli Jews claim that the civilians killed by them were a “mistake”. Thousands of “mistakes” during decades …

    2. Wouldn’t I murder innocent people, including a pregnant woman if someone took my land? No. If you would, then you are scum. Pure and simple.

  4. by the way, will Ramallah be known as Ramallah, Palestine or Ramallah, Israel or Ramallah, Yesha? how about Gaza? will it be Gaza, Palestine or just Gaza, Strip? i think we should all stop the semantics word games, stop calling Mahmoud Abbas “the President of the Palestinian Authority”, start talking of him as the “President of the Palestine National Authority”, or else Mahmoud Abbas can unilaterally declare “Palestine” as a state and start talking of Netanyahu as just the “President of the Israeli Authority”. may be that’s a good place to start peace negotiations.

    1. Another possibility is to speak of Ramallah, Eretz Ishmael (in Arabic, Ramallah, Ard Isma’eel) Yesha will never take.

  5. What scares me is the insane collective punishment the
    Israeli government might decide to take as a result of these
    killings.

  6. Hamas is following Muslim Brotherhood agenda.
    Muslim brotherhood opposes the secular transformation of Muslim states such as Egypt or the PA. Muslim Brotherhood oppose salfi Islam – one of the most moderate Muslim streams The Brotherhood’s stated goal is to instill the Qur’an and Sunnah as the “sole reference point for … ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community … and state

    i would say these views are extreme.

    1. Once again, you prove yr utter ignorance of Hamas & all Palestinians. Hamas originated in the Brotherhood and has some ties to it. But it is an entirely independent movement speaking to local Palestinian conditions & tied to Palestinian nationalism & Islamism. It is not a clone of the Brotherhood by any means.

      Yr terms of reference to judge Hamas are not the Brotherhood but how Hamas has actually governed when it ran the PA, when it did not attempt to impose Islamist theology or ideology on those who weren’t Hamas. If Hamas were competing in another Palestinian election it would not present its Islamist agenda as a major selling pt nor would it seek to impose it on all Palestinians because they wouldn’t stand for it. The majority of Palestinians tend toward being secularists.

      1. ‘The majority of Palestinians tend toward being secularists. ‘

        Really, since when ? where is this coming from.
        http://www.passia.org/about_us/MahdiPapers/Islamist-Secularist-Struggle.html

        specially for you an article written as back as 2006 about Social Impact of the Islamist-Secularist Struggle
        written by Dr. Mahdi F. Abdul Hadi ( i guess he his part of the israeli ‘hasbara’ right?) who states ”
        ‘there is a discernable change in social customs and behavior among the middle class in the last decade. For now secular and Islamist trends are coexisting in society, but secularists are losing influence steadily’

        since 2006 hamas influence became stronger and more middle class people became a bit more religious. not the other way around.

        and to prove that, there is another article by Aziz Abu Sarah (‘hasbara’ right ?) written in Feb 2010 who states:

        ‘In the last three decades, Palestinian identity has undergone tremendous changes. According to a UNDP poll published last April, 47 percent of residents of Gaza and the West Bank identify themselves first and foremost as Muslims. This is surprising, considering that the Palestinian community was once regarded as one of the most secular in the Arab world, and that three decades ago political Islam had a very limited role in the Palestinian national movement. Tellingly, the study also found that 80 percent of young Palestinians are chronically depressed, demonstrating a widespread belief that the future holds little hope for them.’

        http://azizabusarah.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/palestine-between-religion-and-secularism/

        hope that helps to clarify matters.

        1. Really, since when ?

          Since Fatah. Have you forgotten about them? Secular nationalists? The spearhead of the Palestinian national movement for decades?

          Of course secularists are losing influence. With every Israeli incursion & insult to Fatah, with every dismissal of Abbas as weak & irrelevant by Israeli leaders, with every refusal to negotiate in good faith & recognize a Palestinian state Fatah & secularist lose & Hamas gains. If Israel keeps it up they might even succeed in turning the Conquered Territories into a radical Islamist zone. It’s really up to Israel whether this happens. Israel even aided in the initial popularity of Hamas by seeing it as a bulwark against Fatah & supporting it in its early states.

          47 percent of residents of Gaza and the West Bank identify themselves first and foremost as Muslims.

          This is a meaningless statement unless I know more about the context in which it was asked. In Israel if asked an even higher percentage of Jews would identity themselves first & foremost as Jews. So what does this prove? That the majority of Palestinians are flaming Islamists? Hardly.

          hope that helps to clarify matters.

          You never clarify matters, though you do clarify your own incomplete understanding of Palestinian society every time you post.

  7. Hamas kill because they are in the business of killing, they’ll do it whenever they can and if they could, they’d kill all Jews, as their charter clearly states.

    The big mess-up was on the Israeli side – that they couldn’t prevent this terror attack. It’s a shame that even the Israelis don’t realize that the land of the West Bank belongs solely and exclusively to the Jewish People, and thus they bow down to the international armada of pressure that calls them to give up sovereignty on these lands. This land belongs to them both historically and according to international law. Israel’s job is to be the keeper of Jewish land and it fails to fully live up to this responsibility.

    Those who call Israel a land thieving are doing it from a place of deep moral corruption – Israel claims only the lands that are historically Jewish. Arabs already have undisputed sovereignty on all Arab land and beyond.

    Israel’s only practical and moral way of achieving peace is preventing this land from falling into Arab or international hands and declaring its full sovereignty on Judea and Samaria. The Arab world’s moral challenge is to welcome their fellow Palestinian brothers as equal citizens in their own countries and to move towards democracy and human rights.

    1. Hamas kill because they are in the business of killing, they’ll do it whenever they can and if they could, they’d kill all Jews, as their charter clearly states.

      I find this to be an offensive, lying racist statement. YOu don’t know shit about Hamas if you could make such an ignorant stupid ass comment as this. What’s the diff. bet. what you said & the filth that some anti-Zionist anti-Semite might say about Israel as a state killing machine, & associating Israel w. Nazis, etc.?? YOu’ve both stated filth & I object to it strenuously. So if that’s the direction you want to take yr participation here consider yrself warned. This isn’t a blog where grandstanding & sloganeering is tolerated. Nor is it a place where history and fact are slaughtered as you’ve done above.

      It’s a shame that even the Israelis don’t realize that the land of the West Bank belongs solely and exclusively to the Jewish People

      Hey, you get to say that at Arutz Sheva & JPost talkbacks, but not here. You’ve definitely taken a wrong far right turn somewhere to end up here. And you’re definitely in the wrong place. If you dare to return w. a 2nd comment & it’s in the same nature you won’t make another one.

      This land belongs to them both historically and according to international law.

      This land belongs to Israel acc. to settler law, which is not the same as international law in case you hadn’t noticed. Which international law gives Israel the W. Bank???

      On 2nd thought after reading more of this garbage I don’t even want you to have another chance of polluting this thread. YOu’re banned as a Jewish supremacist.

  8. Thanks to the foolhardy campaign of isolation against Hamas engineered by Israel and the U.S., Hamas believes the only way to make its voice heard is through the barrel of a gun.

    The Hamas covenant, which existed a long time before Hamas ever took seat, which was the catalyst for “campaign of isolation”, explicitly states that the barrel of a gun is the only way to make its voice heard; unfortunately you have conveniently decided to categorize it as “hasbarist agenda”.

    I do agree with you that they desperately want the talks to fail. Any sort of agreement, even one in the best interests of the Palestinians will not be endrosed by Hamas, which brings me to the next point:

    What is missing from Bronner’s account? One word: Hamas. And that one word was reintroduced to the political landscape by today’s terror attack. What the terror attack showed to anyone with a brain and eyes in their head is that Hamas will shatter any arrangement unless it includes them in some meaningful form.

    A small, albeit significant, error: Hamas will definitely try their best to shatter any arrangement through terror, but they cannot succeed forever. Like you say, this time, it works against them. But the most disturbing point you make is your willingness to support the inclusion of Hamas in any arrangement as a result of their continuous attempts to undermine peace efforts (even ones that are bound to fail, regardless).

    The US and Israel have isolated Hamas because they try to promote their agenda through terror. You, in turn, suggest this is a wrong decision, because of… terror? Do you actually demonstrate willingness to give in to terror?

    What does this have to do with understanding democracy? Do you think that Israel and the US should bargain with anyone who rises to power in a democratic manner, disregarding their agenda?

    1. The Hamas covenant

      You’re precisely (or almost) the 82nd person to shrey about this meaningless document which no one in Hamas’ leadership pays any attention to. In fact, the document is much more important to anti-Hamas folk like you than it is to anyone in Hamas or any Palestinian. No one in Hamas knows what it says or follows it or uses it. It’s zip, nada, nothing, gornisht. But if you keep paying attention to those propaganda sites which cite it, then you’d think it was the Koran of Hamas. If you don’t believe me dig up the NY Times article on it (or maybe it was in Ynet, can’t remember) or Rashid Khalidi’s comments on the subject. Both know a lot more about this than you, I assure you.

      Any sort of agreement, even one in the best interests of the Palestinians will not be endrosed by Hamas

      NO, that’s not what I said nor what I believe. This specific negotiation will fail. I didn’t say any agreement would fail. An agreement which was produced fairly & which incorporated Palestinian voices & had at least the tacit acceptance of Hamas would work. But that can only happen when the U.S. & Israel abandon the siege, allow a PA election, & accept the fact that Hamas has a legitimate role in Palestinian society. Then Hamas would allow Fatah to negotiate on its behalf as they have said before that they would. Then such an agreement would be legitimate & would work. But what’s being peddled now is gornisht & won’t work.

      they cannot succeed forever.

      As long as Bibi & the other Israeli Nyetists are in power they will do quite nicely thank you & remain in power forever. Even an Israeli invasion of Gaza which overthrows them will only send them underground, where their power will continue to flourish albeit in more covert ways.

      The US and Israel have isolated Hamas because they try to promote their agenda through terror.

      Israel does precisely the same, though it is a state & not a guerilla movement. Hamas uses terror when it suits & political action when it suits. The object is to show Hamas that terror fails & political engagement succeeds. That would require abandonment of the current failed U.S.-Israeli policy towards it.

      Do you actually demonstrate willingness to give in to terror?

      I won’t give in to Hamas terror if you don’t give in to Israeli terror. Let me know when you’re prepared to call Israeli policy for what it is.

      Do you think that Israel and the US should bargain with anyone who rises to power in a democratic manner

      Uh, yes. That’s the definition of democracy. It never ceases to amaze me how little Israelis understand about democracy. And this is yet another proof of my claim that Israel is not one.

      1. @ Richard,
        It’s kind of arrogant by you to dismiss official documents written by Palestinians as having no importance or applicability to the matters in hand.

        can you please substantiate your claim that they have no effect on Hamas members ?

        1. official documents written by Palestinians

          Who says it is an offical document? Can you find any Hamas leader who explicitly refers to it as an official document?

          No, I’m not going to substantiate anything since I know I’m right. You’re going to prove yr nonsensical claim that the Covenant is an operative document that guides Hamas in some meaningful way. Now go do it.

          1. @ Richard
            earlier today you stated:
            ‘We’re here to engage in serious debate & discussion. ‘

            your statement ‘No, I’m not going to substantiate anything since I know I’m right. You’re going to prove yr nonsensical claim that the Covenant is an operative document that guides Hamas in some meaningful way. Now go do it.’

            is extremely contradicting to your statement above.
            so which Richard I Should answer ? Richard #1 or Richard #2 ?

            i am right, and if you think i am wrong you prove it – indeed very serious debate.

          2. If it is true, it should be easy for you to prove that the Covenant is a document that influences major Hamas leaders or policy. Go to it. I wish you well.

            And you will be posting no further comments here till you acknowledge your egregious smear & error in claiming I support a 1 state solution. And if you don’t acknowledge this error very soon you will never publish here again.

          3. If i was wrong and you do not support a one state solution i apologize. so just to clarify what do you support ?
            do you support a two state solution at which Israel remains a Jewish supremacist state ?
            i am asking because if i was wrong in my assumption then i do not really know, and i would like you to elaborate.
            thank you

          4. You are wrong. I do not support a one state solution. I used to be a strong supporter of a two state solution. Now, I’m someone who feels my support of a two state solution has been betrayed by Israeli leaders like Bibi. So I support a 2 state solution all the while realizing that Israel is the biggest obstacle to realizing it, which makes me wonder whether such a solution will ever be possible.

            If you know the term “Jewish supremacist state” it’s undoubtedly because you read it here. So why do you even need to ask the question about whether I believe in this?

          5. Concerning Delta’s “If I was [were] wrong”.
            How come that some people enter a blog very agressively, know about everything and everyone’s intimate convictions, have very ‘strong’ opinions and don’t even bother to read the blog for a while before stating their FATWAS !
            Is that what is called chutzpah ?? (rhetorical question !)

          6. @ Richard
            so you support a two state solution, and the transformation of Israel to what you see as a ‘true’ democracy.
            knowingly or unknowingly you preach the end of the state of Israel. You are not dumb, you understand that those who can leave the country (Jewish people) would do so, you realize that within 20 years demographic would change tremendously and the Israeli Arabs would become the majority in that state ? you do not fear that because israel would have a set of laws in place protecting what you call it’s democratic nature.
            look around us – your solution doesn’t work in Lebanon, and since all the able Christians left and the Muslims became the majority the country is in a turmoil, and the idea of democracy simply doesn’t work in the Arab countries. show me one Arab state in which real democracy exist (and you have 22 to choose from).

            this is your solution and this is what you wish for – you are dreaming, and your dreams would become our nightmare. easy to dream when you are living on the other side of the world, and will not pay the price for your hallucinations, and please don’t tell me you will immigrate, you will not.

          7. You don’t know what you’re talking about & I have no interest continuing any discussion w. someone whose understanding of the meaning of my beliefs is so twisted. The State of Israel will still exist if my vision is realized. It will be a diff. state than it is now. You will have to share yr rights, obligations & responsibilities w. yr fellow non Jewish citizens. For you that is the end of the State. Which only shows how bereft of understanding you are of the meaning of democracy.

            Israeli Jews are leaving the country in droves, usually the ones who are most technically advanced because they don’t want to remain in a warrior state & raise their children to be shot at & killed due to the sheer folly of their leaders.

            There are tens of countries around the world in which ethnic groups live together peaceably including Canada, Switzerland, N. Ireland, S. Africa, to name a few. Lebanon isn’t perfect, but it isn’t a failed state either.

            Yr crack about democracy in Arab countries is pure racism & stupid to boot.

            Turkey is a democracy. The PA had a democratic election derailed by Israel. It would have developed a democratic tradition had Israel allowed this. Lebanon is a functioning democracy.

            I wouldn’t immigrate to Israel until it was at peace.

          8. I have a Lebanese friend with whom I regularly talk via instant messaging. More than once he told me he had to stop talking immediately because he thinks the government is monitoring his traffic and will accuse him of espionage since he talks to an Israeli. Essentially he has to hide it from everyone and keep it a secret.

            I assume you think Lebanon’s democracy works better than Israel’s. It’s just as “functioning” as Israel’s is, if not worse.

            Also, Turkey is not an Arab country.

            Most “technically advanced” Israelis are emigrating mostly because they’re promised far better income in Europe, Canada, the US, etc. I know many who did and none of them left because they “don’t want to raise their childres to be shot at”

            Re: ethnic groups in Switzerland – There is a huge problem with immigrants. Particularly Turkish and Albanian immigrants. I have family in Switzerland and there are MANY cases of violence involving Albanians. It’s so bad in fact, native German Swiss residents are in some places completely insecure and are bullied or worse by gangs.

          9. I don’t know Lebanon well enough to say whether its democracy functions better or worse than Israel’s. But it IS a democracy. Democracy in both Israel & Lebanon is problematic and not full formed, but at least it exists in some form.

            Turkey is not an Arab country.

            I know what Turkey is & isn’t so don’t try to act like you’ve caught me in an error. The commenter I was replying to was using the term “Arab” interchangeably with the term “Muslim.” She was arguing that there is no Middle Eastern country aside fr. Israel which is a democracy, which is a lie.

            I know many who did and none of them left because they “don’t want to raise their childres to be shot at”

            But I’ve met many here in the U.S. who left for that precise reason (& others as well).

            ethnic groups in Switzerland – There is a huge problem with immigrants.

            That has nothing to do w. my pt., which was that the various NATIVE ethnic groups (Franco, Italo, & German-Swiss) have managed to figure out how to cobble together a country & keep it running smoothly. That should’ve been obvious fr. the context & subject of my comment.

        2. @ Delta …Enough with this crap, Richard is too civil and is wasting his time. You accuse him of being arrogant and insulting you, when he’s always a gentleman. I’ll give you insults… you served in Gaza, means to me that you’re a sadistic baby killer, your opinion means crap to any decent human being.

          1. you’re a sadistic baby killer

            I understand why you wrote this but…sinking to her level doesn’t make our side look any better. We don’t know what she did in Gaza. Given her views she can’t have been a humanitarian. But to use those terms is unwarranted no matter how asinine her comments.

          2. I don’t want to be biased or sexist but I would never have dreamed of Delta being anything else than a male person. Now Richard has written ‘she’ twice and thus, it’s not a typo. If this is what Israel is doing, ever to the ‘weaker sex’ :-)), that’s a mean place !

            Personnally, I do know a bunch of ‘yordim’ who left because they didn’ want to see they children grow up in a violent and racist environment. A friend of mine talked for years of leaving with his wife, but they always felt like ‘if we leave who is going to fight for our ideals (he is a One-Stater). When his daughter was 6-7 years old, she came home from school, and said some very bad things about the Arabs. His wife looked shocked at the kid and asked ‘what classmate said that ?’. It was the female teacher ! That was the final straw that broke the kamel’s back, and 6 monts later they moved to Canada. He says ‘rescuing my children’ when asked why he left.

      2. Uh, yes. That’s the definition of democracy. It never ceases to amaze me how little Israelis understand about democracy. And this is yet another proof of my claim that Israel is not one.

        Don’t belittle me. I understand completely how democracy works. To stress the point I was trying to make – I wonder how well that would have worked out with Hitler.

    2. Israel’s agenda > Do not recognize “Palestine” as a National Entity in the WestBank
      Hamas’ agenda > Do not recognize “Israel” as a National Entity in the Saahel (i.e. where it is now)
      MahmoudAbbas’ agenda > Israel’s agenda: after all he is not the “President of the Palestine National Authority”. He doesn’t insist on it. He doesn’t even talk “Palestinian”. He is just the one whom Israel appointed (through elections was it?) as President over those bunch of people who live in Israel, call themselves Palestinians, and are soon to be deported out of Yesha (Yehuda and Samaria). What a crock! Now you understand why Hamas is Hamas. If you don’t get it, just think of Jabotinsky … and how he represented the beginning of a new era for the Zionist Jews to steal the land and dispossess the Palestinians exactly the same as the whole of bigoted Christian Europe dispossessed the Jews for over two millenia … So you see now that Hamas and Israel (Jabotinsky’s and Likud’s) have the same agenda … may Allah and Adonai help us all …

  9. Richard,
    Are you sure that if invited, Hamas would come, and consider accepting a plausible result that included some fundamental compromise on something?

    In Northern Ireland, did the British make any fundamental compromises, beyond not prosecuting some individuals that they would have otherwise, or was just the temporary recognition sufficient?

    Is Sinn Fein prominent anymore in Northern Ireland politics?

    Does Hamas desire parallel?

    1. Yesterday’s Bronner article did include the word “occupation” to describe Israel’s role in the West Bank and Gaza.

      Thanks for describing the Hamas killings as gruesome.

      I believe that even if there is a great deal of vanity in the peace talks, that the effort to resolve one issue then the next, or issues in packets, is a good effort.

      Even if it doesn’t result in a firm agreement in a year, that effort is part of our obligation as Jews, to continue to pursue peace indefatigably.

    2. “Is Sinn Fein prominent anymore in Northern Ireland politics?”
      Errr… yes? It’s the second largest party in the NI assembly and would be the largest if seats were proportional to total votes.

      Trying to make Hamas go away by excluding it from participation in the political process was a grave error from the very start* and continuing this flawed policy basically ensures that no agreement, even if one should result from the vaunted ‘direct talks’, will actually succeed in practice.

      Now, I don’t consider it at all likely if that simply tacking on an invitation to Hamas after Abbas had finally caved and agreed to direct talks would have resulted in Hamas joining said talks immediately. They would have posed several additional conditions – which Netanyahu would have balked at – if not refused outright.
      But that only serves to illustrate how short-sighted and idiotic Western policymakers are. The process of engaging Hamas as a political entity should have begun – at the latest – as soon as they had won the Palestinian elections. To think that one could simply brush away four years of a thoroughly failed policy – including political boycott, economic blockade and thousands of ‘gruesome killings’ – by a casual invitiation is completely delusional.

      *That is, if you’re actually interested in a just solution of the conflict. If you’re in favor of dragging things out ad infinitum, as Netanyahu in all likelihood is, it’s just fine.

  10. Whether it is Palestinian militants killing Israeli civilians or the Israeli military killing Palestinian civilians it is just plain wrong and perpetrators should be brought to justice in all cases.

    It is most unfortunate the militants who carried out this atrocity and their commanders don’t understand that this – besides being wrong – is also counterproductive.

    Just as there was critical mass developing around the world (including among ever increasing numbers of members of Jewish communities in the US and Europe) as well as in Israel that demanded policy changes towards/by the Israeli goverment, this event has probably destroyed much of that and, if anything, plays into the hands of the Israeli extreme right.

    I hope one day the planners of such attacks will understand these dynamics and realise that non-violent resistance is a million times more powerful than what they did last night.

    1. “It is most unfortunate the militants who carried out this atrocity and their commanders don’t understand that this – besides being wrong – is also counterproductive.”
      They understand it quite well. That’s why they’re doing it.
      These murders send a clear message from Hamas, and probably from others, with the following content:

      a) We are still there. If we didn’t commit terrorist acts on the WB recently it was because we chose not to, not because you had bested us.
      b) We can sabotage any agreement you reach if we want to.
      c) Thus if you think you can actually conclude this conflict without offering us participation, think twice!

      1. That may be true too.

        I do think however that violent resistance does not generate the kind of support abroad needed to change goverments’ policies and that non-violent resistance is much more powerful.

        1. 1.) Palestinians tried nonviolent resistance by refusing to pay taxes to a government that did not represent them. Sound familiar?
          The Israeli answer: Collective punishments, abductions, looting and a siege cutting off all supplies and services, leaving the Palestinians to starve. Oh, and of course breaking the bones of Palestinians who might raise so much as a finger in defense.
          Responsible: Yitzhak Rabin, everyone’s favorite peace martyr.

          You see, nonviolent resistance only works if on your opponent’s side there is at least a sizeable faction with a conscience, with some understanding for your just cause.

          This is one of the key differences between Apartheid SA and Jim Crow era USA one the one hand and the occupied territories on the other hand. In South Africa, there had always been a sizeable minority of whites who opposed Apartheid, who wanted blacks to have political rights and so on. (This internal resistance, by the way, included many Jewish citizens of South Africa.) This opposition was represented in the South African parliament and it grew over time.
          By contrast, how many settlers do you know who speak out in favor of Palestinian political rights? Who advocate either a Palestinian state or a one-state-solution? Let’s not fool ourselves: Even in Israel proper those who oppose the occupation out of moral principles are marginalized. In the settler community, they are a quantité négligeable.

          2.) Hamas has its own interests. If they didn’t think they could serve the needs of Palestinians better than Fatah does, they would’ve joined Fatah. It is foolish to think they would take any precautions not to damage a ‘peace process’ they are not part of. Why should they?
          That’s how it works in politics. You can’t constantly kick your political opponents in the gonads, and then expect them to play nice – while still kicking them – for the ‘good of the country’ when you need them to.

          P.S.: Well, okay. If your political opponent has a donkey for a mascot, you can give it a shot. Might work.

          1. I am not doubting what you say but I still think what happened is counterproductive.

            Ynet informs us:

            Yesha Council: We’ll break construction freeze following attack

            Published: 08.31.10, 23:50 / Israel News

            The Yesha Council and heads of West Bank Jewish communities announced Tuesday that they will be breaking the settlement construction freeze as of 6pm on Wednesday, in response to the lethal shooting attack which killed four Israelis.

            “The Zionist answer is to build and support. They shoot and we build. Each does as he believes,” a Yesha Council statement noted. (Aviel Magnezi)

          2. “I am not doubting what you say but I still think what happened is counterproductive.”
            Listen, ‘counterproductive’ is a totally misplaced term here. You can only be counterproductive if basically you are part of a productive process. Hamas has been excluded from any possible productive process by the other parties.

            If by ‘counterproductive’ you mean that it’s disruptive to the efforts of non-Hamas parties, damn right it is! But the important question is: What should be done about it? Should they continue to isolate Hamas? Or maybe try to reach some semblance of a rapport with them? Of course, in our political world, defined by base emotions instead of rational thinking, people will shriek that you can’t negotiate with someone who’s attacking you. So very, very wrong. You need to negotiate with them – or neutralize them, but as I said, one of the points of this attack was to demonstrate the futility of that option.

  11. Jeez, everyone seems to forget that the latest “terrorist” attack by Hamas against Israel was conducted in occupied territory against Zionist settlers who have usurped Palestinian land in the West Bank, and NOT in Israel. I certainly, in no way, condone violence, but to deny the Palestinians the right to resist the occupation is wrong, and that is what Hamas is doing. Doing it on the eve of so-called peace talks is a signal that the proposed talks are a farce because those who truly represent the Palestinians have not been included. Abbas does not represent the Palestinians – he is no longer even president. Like Obama, he is another Uncle Tom (A person who will do anything to stay in good standing with “the white man” including betray his own people).

      1. No? Is it also not the same as “self-defense”? Because, you might know, Israeli forces murder civilians all the time. And I mean “murder”.

        In WW2, Partisan forces casually murdered German civilians in occupied territories (for example railroad workers) as well as citizens of their own countries who were cooperating with the Germans. Also not “resisting occupation”?

        Settlers in the occupied territories are not simple citizens minding their own business. They are part of a military occupation framework. Many of them are actually armed militants. I do not see any reason why they should be considered “civilians” any more than Gazan policemen or Hamas officials.

          1. Absolutely not.

            It is of course especially tragic for the Palestinians because the Israelis have far bigger and more lethal weapons, including fighter planes and Apache helicopters from which to kill Palestinians in greater numbers.

          2. No, neither is “okay”. But then again, neither is more or less reprehensible or criminal than the other.
            I condone neither, and actually think that in both cases the responsible parties should be brought to justice.
            I could be wrong, but I’m fairly certain that you think that in one of these cases – the one which happens far more often by the way – the responsible party should walk away scot free or at best receive a slap on the wrist, while in the other case they should be imprisoned and/or killed? Am I right?

          3. Seems to me you’re in a vicious circle. Can we agree that it’s not acceptable for either the IDF or Palestinian militants to murder civilians? Further, the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas militants is infinitesimal compared to the number of Palestinian civilians killed by the IDF.

          4. @ Koshiro

            Don’t tell me what my opinions are, you don’t know me. No, I don’t think IDF soldiers should get away “scot free” when they kill Palestinians civilians. I think they should go to jail.

          5. Really? So, you’re all for prosecuting Barak, Livni and Galant? Because you surely know that they started off their little “Operation Cast Lead” by killing dozens of Palestinian police cadets, who were protected noncombatants, on purpose.

      1. I wouldn’t use the term “Uncle Tom” because it is a charged racial term and a white person like myself ought to be careful about ever using it, but Obama is obviously a centrist who tosses aside progressive principles when they get in his way, espousing them as needed to win lefty votes and ignoring them afterwards. Though to be fair to Obama, his centrism and willingness to lie were fairly obvious from the start, only invisible to people who were starved for progressive leaders and wanted badly to believe in him.

        Early examples of Obama’s dishonesty are there in his speeches to AIPAC in 2007 and 2008. He’s done basically nothing about Bush’s assault on the Constitution and civil liberties except in some cases to expand upon what Bush did. He’s willing to prosecute whistleblowers, but won’t touch any Bush war criminals (in part because he is arguably one himself).

    1. It pains me to hear Obama referred to as an ‘Uncle Tom’. How much leeway does he have with the American political landscape being as it is? I simply cannot agree with this characterization of him.

      Obama is fundamentally OK, but it is the country that he is the president of that is not, with all the power of those conservative Christian nutcases, and so he is caught.

      My brother taught at a university in the US for a number of years and came back recently, with a quite un-European hatred for religion. (Normally, Europeans don’t really care much either way.) I can only explain this, by his having been exposed to the obnoxious Christian fundamentalism that he was exposed to in the US. I hope he will calm down, now that he is back in Europe again.

      But this is what America is like, and Obama has to wrestle with it. Have some mercy on him!

  12. One might suspect that the Hamas extremists who executed this attack don’t want peace at any price. And that’s just what they’ll get if they continue on this road.

    RICHARD,

    Please can you provide one concrete example that Hamas wants anything but the destruction of the state of Israel. You are making the classic ” Chamberlain mistake”. Seeing Hamas through your western bias. i.e. these are reasonable people who really want peace, they only kill and murder because they are impoverished, frustrated and angry. Could it possible be that they actually mean what they say ? THey fight to destroy Israel ( and the west), they are not fighting so Israel will give them something, they are fighting to destroy !!! I take them at their word. Why can’t you ?

    Dave

    1. So let’s just assume they really want to “destroy Israel”, whatever that means (transform it into a majority Arab state? Expel some Jews? All of them? Disenfranchise them? Kill them all? What do you think?)
      You see, one of the purposes of negotiating, of engaging in a political process, can actually be to change opinions. But even failing that: People, even Hamas, can compromise on their principles in order to achieve a less than optimal, but acceptable result. That’s another thing negotiations can bring about. But it’s a possible result, not a precondition (hello Mr. Netanyahu!)

      If you or people thinking in the same way as you had had their way, Israel would never have negotiated with Egypt or Jordan.

  13. The current round of peace talks are almost upon us; indeed, they’ve probably started already. But, sadly, four Israelis and a potential fifth were shot to death yesterday and reprisals for this can easily be imagined in the days to come. And, all the while, 60+ years of pointless killing and pain would seem to count for nothing; this cycle of violence still continues and, as things stand, only its amplitude has changed – and not for the better. Talks that might have stood some small chance of success now seem to promise so much less than before, even though expectations weren’t all that high to begin with. The voice of the gun is still able to dominate above all others.

    But it’s no good banging on about how evil and unfit this group or that just happens to be. None of them are likely to fade from the scene on that opinion alone.
    It’s no good cataloging how much the other side’s crimes are so much worse than one’s own. From an objective point of view, if there can be such a thing, this is largely irrelevant.
    Neither can it be of any help anticipating some rapid change of heart in any of the contending parties; things are as they are and no amount of fine tuning will be able to change them all that much.
    .
    If bemoaning the situation will not help, the question that remains is this. What will? If we want to see the rule of law rather than that of the gun become the dominant factor, what then is it that we have to do??

    Hasn’t the problem always been that, for some, the gun works only too well, thereby increasing the difficulty in its removal.

    Removal: One way might be to degrade its function, degrade it by ensuring that all guns and other similar implements now include an inbuilt defect, a tendency to explode spectacularly in the face of the user now and then. With such unreliable weaponry deployed, the case for its use could soon become about as obsolete as the dodo.

    http://yorketowers.blogspot.com

    Maybe our expectations need not be so low after all.
    Maybe that, in itself, has been the problem all along.

  14. And still no concrete example from the Ultra leftist arab sypathiser. Just name calling. How about it Rich ? Just give us one ?

    1. Is ‘Arab sympathizer’ a dirty word? Is it bad to sympathize with Arabs? Any Arabs, or only some?

      It is always racists who use such terms: ‘niggerlover’, ‘Judenfreund’. Please realize what company you are in.

      1. And if we have the good manners and respect to capitalize the words Jews and Judaism, then please show the same respect for Arabs and Islam.

        1. I get it now: The term Judenfreund in your worldview would mean: “You are biased and one sided to the Jewish side. And that’s a big problem. No balance at all.” The same for ‘nigger lover’. Thanks for the explanation.

  15. “…The attack took place in an area of the West Bank that is under full Israeli security control, and where the Palestinian security forces have no responsibility and are not allowed to operate.”

    Why is this relevant? Israel claims full security control much of the West Bank (in reality over all of it, and if you consider the blockade, over Gaza as well.)

    The land where this happened is in Palestine. If Hamas wanted to commit such acts inside Israel, it would do so.

  16. Hi Richard,

    “Thanks to the foolhardy campaign of isolation against Hamas engineered by Israel and the U.S., Hamas believes the only way to make its voice heard is through the barrel of a gun.”

    Do you really believe that murdering parents of six children and another pregnant women is justified because they are settlers ?

    Do you actually believe that “isolation” drives someone to kill 4 innocent people ? Its far deeper than that. To kill with the wonton disregard Hamas does, takes real hatred that stems from something much deeper than occupation.

    Its a shame you only see the surface and superficial, and almost a crime that you use this tragedy for such callous political commentary. Where is your heart ?

    1. Do you really believe that murdering parents of six children and another pregnant women is justified

      I guess you can’t read, because that’s most definitely NOT what I wrote. But don’t let that stop you fr. mangling my views.

      To kill with the wonton disregard Hamas does, takes real hatred that stems from something much deeper than occupation.

      Ah yes, the old canard Jew-hatred, etc. What noxiousness. Where did you come from?

      I hope you’ll fulfill that promise that this will be yr last visit here.

  17. Hamas has repeatedly vowed vengeance after the Israel killing of Hamas members such as the assassination in Dubai. Israel has killed dozens of Palestinians this year in addition to the flotilla massacre.

      1. I have no idea what a “known terrorist” is. Nor do you. For you, it’s anyone the IDF says is a terrorist which casts an awfully wide net that can include unarmed police cadets on a parade ground graduating fr academy. 250 of them mowed down all at once as the first act of Israel’s massacre/war.

        Can you assure me that the two husbands were gentle law abiding citizens who’d never harmed a Palestinian? No, of course you can’t since to settle in the Hebron Hills you by defintion have to hate Palestinians so much you’re prepared to kill them. And many of these settlers have done so in cold blood. Now, I don’t know anything about these particular victims & don’t support their murder. But let’s be honest & candid. These particular settlers are not there to have a picnic nor merely to settle the land of Israel. They’re there to participate in a catacylsmic existential war bet. Israel & Amalek. And as far as they’re concerned, these people are martyrs for the cause in the exact same way that Palestinian shahids are martyrs for their cause.

  18. I agree a lot with Richard. I think, the problem is, that US, Israel and Abbas left Hamas without political options. Since Abbas election, it became widely known that his family got their money from the US:

    http://www.menassat.com/?q=en/news-articles/6453-abbas

    Abbas term of presidency ran out in January 2009. Abbas since them called off all elections where he and his men could be defeated. Abbas PA militia is widely regarded as a US puppet force, and that is no coincidence:

    http://jta.org/news/article/2009/03/17/1003799/us-opens-pa-training-center

    The US is widely regarded as biased pro Israel or even submissive to Israel. The latest submission of Barack Obama to Bibi Netanyahu in the question of building settlements in Jerusalem has shown it once again.

    Abbas ignored calls from Hamas and many others from civilian Palestinian society not to negotiate with Israel anything, while Israel continues with the expansion of settlements.

    Now Netanyahu, Obama and Abbas negotiate the future of Palestine in secret negotiations where Palestinian rights shall be sold out to Israel. So what political option was left for Hamas to stop Abbas from doing this?

    But in one point I more agree with Hamas analysis. Richard, you said: “If I were Abbas I would demand…”

    As far as I have seen Hamas does not think, that Abbas thinks of the Palestinian people and that he will not demand anything. They believe Abbas knows that he will have no chance in any future election and is now just securing some more US money for him and his family. As Abbas is seen as a US-puppet these peace talks are considered as a conspiracy against Palestine.

    Sad situation.

  19. Abu-Mazen is a Mossad Mole. He does’nt even “talk” as a Palestinian. The “Palestine” that Bibi and Abu-Mazen will bless will be a confederation of Jordan, Israel, and the WestBank (its inhabitants may call it palestine, yesha, yehuda, or samaria), and Gaza which may join the confederation in the future if it meets some conditions. This Bibi will accept. What he will not accept is the “DeJure” recognition of a sovereign “Republic of Palestine” in the WestBank and Gaza. A Republic of Palestine that disjoins Jordan or Israel from being part of it but a Republic of Palestine that may join Israel and Jordan in a “Confederation of Jerusalem”. If I am dreaming then you’ll soon find that it is the most realistic dream around. Unless you stick to the core issues, the discussion and counter-jabs on this site are superficial to say the least, harmful at their worst. Ask Delta (one of the discussants here) a simple question: Will you personally accept a DeJure recognition of a Republic of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza? if you answer is conditional yes than what are your “realistic” conditions? and What if all your realistic conditions are met by a majority of Palestinians in the WestBank and Gaza, then will you accept a DeJure recognition of a Republic of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza? I suspect Delta’s answer will be No. I know Likud-Bibi’s answer will definitely be No. Likud-Bibi can definitely count on his MossadMole to accept “Palestinian Sovereignty over their own affairs” but never over “their own Land”. That’s where the Hamas factor comes into play as a counter point to the MossadMole. So please “All of you including Richard” start talking about meaningful things and stop repeating the obvious and shouting at each other while doing it. It’s really boring. To all of you my brothers and cousins “Salaam and Shalom”, Eid Ramadan Tov and Shanah Mubaarakat.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Share via
Copy link