Readers of this blog will recall a post I wrote after the Mavi Marmara massacre in which Israeli Palestinian MK Haneen Zoabi was physically assaulted as she attempted unsuccessfully to address the Knesset on her return from her participation in the flotilla. Subsequent to that, the Knesset further punished Zoabi by removing rights and benefits accorded to all members.
Now the military intelligence goons have released new, heavily edited video footage (video buffer is very slow) that makes the ridiculous claim that because she is seen walking down a common passageway on the ship on which other passengers are seen holding poles (with which they presumably, in the Israeli version, attacked IDF soldiers, though it doesn’t show them doing this) that she is a liar, fraud and terrorist. In a second scene she is seen mounting a stairway in which men at least one floor above her are seen carrying poles. At no point in the video does she see these allegedly armed figures, not does she interact with them. In fact, there isn’t a single scene in the video in which she is in the same frame with the pole-bearers.
What does all this claim? The astoundingly incriminating fact that an Israeli Palestinian Knesset member shared a ship among 600 other passengers in which she was in some indeterminate physical proximity to other passengers who were carrying poles. Wow. If that isn’t the smoking gun that Israel needs to bury this woman I don’t know what is.
The breathless prose of Haaretz’s reporter Jonathan Lis is indeed disgusting in that it plays into the smear mentality that has beset Zoabi since she returned from the flotilla. He all but claims that she lied about not knowing there were armed men on the boat. Indeed, why does it matter at all whether she knew or not? Should she have clairvoyantly been able to foresee that passengers might attack the IDF soldiers assaulting the ship? After she did know about the violence, should she have magically teleported herself off the ship? Should she have stayed in her cabin cowering in a corner until the worst was over? No, you can’t win with these people. They simply want their pound of Arab flesh and will take it any way they can.
Why do they hate her so? Because she is young, charismatic, energetic, photogenic, fluent in Hebrew and a powerful representative for her people. The Israeli right hates that. It cannot abide having a capable opponent pointing out its flaws. For this, it will silence her at the first opportunity. This is video is yet another part of that assault.
What is most disturbing is the right-wing extremist reaction to this video. One far right Knesset member calls it “incontrovertible proof that she participated in terror against Israel.” Another calls upon Israel’s “Arab leadership” to end Zoabi’s career in the Knesset. A member of Lieberman’s Yisrael Beitenu declares the footage proof that Zoabi belongs in the “Hamas government and not the Israeli Knesset.”
Frankly, I’m astonished that the Israeli propaganda machine is still crankin’ out this stuff this many months after the disaster. It proves that Mavi Marmara continues to wound this government deeply. Any Israeli seen to have aided in this effort will be targeted for severe punishment.
What is it like to be a Palestinian citizen of Israel? Let Haneen Zoabi or any number of other Palestinian MKs tell you, who are subject to this sort of abominable treatment routinely from a racist, extremist, anti-democratic Jewish majority.
And will the Jewish “liberal” minority come to her aid? Are you kidding? Well, maybe they’ll say a word or two in her support as a fellow Knesset member. Maybe they’ll oppose stripping her of her privileges. Other than that, very little.
Both Turkey and the UN are conducting investigations into the Mavi Marmara massacre. This alone is enough to continue the harassment of Haneen Zouabi. Public scrutiny compels the Israelis to choose a scapegoat, an unfortunate person to take the hit for their own stupidity and viciousness. The Israelis will never own up to their crimes but instead use “human shields” like Zouabi to deflect criticism and blame away from themselves.
This video was released on the day Ashkenazy was questioned by the Tirkl committee on Galei Zahal (military radio).
There’s the motive right there.
In this interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fWZWLz-uQ) – two months ago – MK zoabi, states that she was below the deck and didn’t see the soldiers rappelling down to the deck (and any of the events associated with it) , she further states that she saw few critically wounded civilians that were brought down to where she was, she states that she approached the soldiers and asked that they will provide them with medical assistance.
In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXfj0V3J8QQ) time mark 1.26 , she argues with the soldiers who are trying to evacuate the critically wounded civilians. And states that they do not want to be evacuated to an Israeli hospital. the soldier states that he doesn’t care and he needs to provide them with medical assistance regardless of their wishes.
Anyone who speaks Hebrew can hear that and testify to that.
She is no more than a liar.
How do you know what she’s doing in the video? I saw it myself, didn’t see anything incriminating in it.
I think the term “liar” belongs to the Israeli government, for spreading misinformation about the IHH being affiliated with terrorists, saying there were weapons and Al Qaeda operatives aboard the Mavi Marmara, claiming that bogus footage of soldiers being beaten by passengers was genuine (anyone comparing photos of the ship to the vessel in the Israeli video could immediately see they were not the same boat), and asserting that the passengers were the aggressors. The pathetic attempts to whitewash the whole affair by stealing passenger videos and electronic equipment (none of which has ever been returned) and patching up the bullet holes on the boat are not unnoticed by the world.
And so the focus should be on one woman? What important detail did she “lie” about?
are you serious ? do you even speak Hebrew ?
or maybe you just didn’t hear what she said ?
there is an option to increase the volume.
i didn’t refer to the question of did she or didn’t she saw any of the weapons on deck, just to the things she said.
about weather or not the peaceful civilians were offered medical treatment.
ask someone to translate it for you.
IHH association with terror comes from the US state department and the FBI, not Israel.
Nice try. What she says in the video isn’t relevant. I have read a translation and I don’t see what is so incriminating.
The IHH has on its board Prime Minister Erdogan’s wife, among others. Is she a terrorist?
Do you have any links to this so-called state department and FBI information? Other than the Jerusalem Post and other Zionist publications?
“] The IHH holds Special Consultative Status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council since 2004”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_%28Turkish_NGO%29
Terrorist organization? Yeaah, right.
in short in the first video she stats that the bad israeli soldiers refuse to give medical treatment to the poor peaceful wounded civilians.
in the second video she argues with the an officer that tells her that they must evacuate all the wounded civilians, she asks him not to do so.
in short she is a liar, i would check my translation if i were you, also would you be kind enough to provide us that “translation” ?
as for IHH, i was wrong it came from the french and the Danish.
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf
I know Hebrew & what I understood was that she was telling the IDF that the wounded do not want to be treated at Israeli hospitals, a perfectly reasonable demand considering that they would be in IDF custody. Saying that she wanted the IDF to treat the wounded aboard ship so that they didn’t bleed to death is completely diff. to not wanting to be transported to Israeli hospitals. I find you grossly guilty of bad faith in yr arguments.
If you call Haneen Zoabi a liar w/o supporting evidence once more you will be banned.
the state dept has yet to designate the ihh as a terrorist org, although they have stated that they are bothered by some of their associations.
the israeli government were not truthful in attempting to tie the ihh to alquaida….but the org does have strong tied to hamas.
Such as? And since when is it illegal to have the types of ties that IHH may (or may not) have w. Hamas? Are they breaking any Turkish law? I’d want to know a whole lot more than you’ve offered about the nature, type & intensity of such ties before I saw them the way Israel does. Besides, in this case disbelieving every Israeli claim about the Mavi Marmara & IHH has turned out to be a pretty good idea given their track record of lying, distortion & propaganda shpiels.
So would you call the commenter who wrongly stated that the U.S. has designated IHH as terrorists a liar or merely grossly misinformed??
Prove it as far as the U.S. government. The IHH is not on the Treasury list of terror groups. Israel, & not the U.S. declared IHH a terror group. So that makes you a propagandist & liar.
Close friends of mine were on board the Mavi Marmara, and I can promise you that when armed commandos stormed the boat and began killing passengers, none of them would have trusted Israeli soldiers to remove them with the promise of providing medical treatment. I was supposed to be on that ship, and had I been there, and had I been attacked and wounded, I would have preferred to stay on board to be helped by the same doctors who treated the IDF soldiers who were slightly injured when they attacked the flotilla. When we board boats to Gaza we always know what Israel is capable of, and that we might lose our lives, but we and much of the world were unprepared for the murderous attack on the flotilla. Now we are threatened that in future the IDF will send snipers to “pick off passengers on the deck” before descending to kill them face to face. Yet thousands more people are lined up to go on board the next flotilla, and the next, and the next. And if there is space, I will go every time.
@ Richard
at 12:16 AM you wrote:
“So that makes you a propagandist & liar” with referring to a statement i made about IHH organization.
however
at 8:32 PM (almost 4 hours before) i admitted for being wrong and stated the IHH designation as related to terror came from the french and danish , and even provided you with a link to a document wrote by a danish institute, elaborating on such activities. since you were busy and didn’t see it here it is again
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf
i think that you should tone down your harsh words just a bit.
and let me tell you a joke, do you know why jews dip the passover matzah in the blood of young christian boys ? because it makes it a bit more tender.
i’m sure you find that joke tasteless and so do i, however it is very similar to the following statement: “No, you can’t win with these people. They simply want their pound of Arab flesh and will take it any way they can.”
which reminds me of something that came right out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
I don’t read the comment threads as readers do. My blog’s comment management feature doesn’t necessarily display comments in chronological order though technically it should. Sometimes, I don’t even see comments because either I’ve accidentally skipped over them or they don’t display in my comment management page. So if you admitted yr error prior to my own comment, I apologize. You should also realize that when you’re responding to so many commenters, some of whose arguments appear to be made from the same pro-Israel cookie cutter, it gets hard to be patient, temperate and easygoing.
No, actually it is your own anti Arab/pro-Israel prejudice that is troubling. If my comment disturbed you, well it should. And you might want to reflect on how yr views come across to many others outside of those in Israel who may agree w. you who harbor the same prejudices.
“reminds me of something that came right out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”
Oh, good grief. It predates the Protocols by a several centuries. It’s from Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene 1 if I recall correctly.
Thanks for providing adding some high toned literary analysis to this blog.
Mary, are u claiming soilders were not beated up by passenegrs?
Without even getting into the useless arguement of how israel should have treated that ship – the operation ended *also* with few wounded israeli soilders. We all saw picturs of them in hospitals, and on the ship itself (unless of course u assume israeli government sent completly healthy soilders and asked them to play wounded to impress the locals – and then u should serioulsy take something against ur paranoia).
You might claim of course they shouldnt have gotten on the ship at first place -but why to distort facts? the ihh memebers on it were not the bunch of the friendliest folks on earth either.
Besides, should i google up and remind u how u wrote here about ur “15 dead friends”, then changed the number to 9 and claimed turkey might be lying about another 6 dead people? (why would they do such athing?)
Should i also dig up to find the post where u wrote the people on the ship were armed with “knifes only”? (as if one cant kill with a knife)
And on Ms Zoabi – i can only say that as every average israeli palestinian MK – she cares about those who live in gaza way more than she cares about the people who elected her. I dont remember any Palestinian Knesset Member actually doing anything to help his/her sector with ANYTHING. it seems that they run to knesset only as imaginary representives of the occupied territories, but thats not my problem, of course.
That was not Mary’s fault. It was Israel itself which reported that 15 were killed & then changed the number to 9. Don’t blame Mary for Israel’s own mistake.
This is a stupid, ignorant, ill-informed & racist comment. Of course, it’s not supported by evidence since it’s a judgment you couldn’t possibly prove. Look, if you look at these comment threads as a playground to display your ignorance & racism I’ve got news for you: it’s not. Don’t abuse my hospitality here.
Maybe it’s because you don’t know jack shit about Palestinians or their MKs. And while we’re at it can you explain to me why no Israeli ruling coalition will accept an Arab party into a coalition? If they did, then Palestinian MKs might actually have some power to provide effective services to their constituents. As it is, Palestinian MKs are virtually ignored in the Knesset & have little power other than to speechify & hold press conferences. And this is specifically by design on the part of the Jewish political establishment both Labor/Kadima/Likud.
Y:
As one of three people manning the Free Gaza media office in Cyprus, I was the last person to speak with any of our passengers before the IDF shot the video operator in the head and terminated the live stream video. The only information we had about casualties came from the IDF website, and from reporters who called us to say the Israelis reported 3, then 5, then 10, then 15, then more than 20 passengers killed. When the reporters first phoned us we refused to put out any press release without first confirming the figures from IDF sources. We figured since they had done the killing, they should know. Certainly we had no other sources until our passengers and crew began to be released. So if early death counts were incorrect, blame the IDF, not Mary, and not us.
@ Mary
how funny, as the media reporter stated that their “sources in cyprus” reported….
and i have no idea who are you referring to as a media reporter that was “shot in the head” as no respectable media organization claimed that one of their reporters was killed in the incident.
al jazeera, reported until very late, and everyone watched it pretty mach in live stream.
She wrote the ship’s “video operator” was shot in the head. Not the “media reporter.” Can’t you quote her accurately?
Yuval, I am sure you wouldn’t have so kindly provided a link if there were not somewhere contained within the document it a reference to I.H.H. being linked to any kind of terrorist groups or terrorist activity. It is a long document, and I have scanned it without finding any such reference.
I truly would like to know on which page this reference is made. Many thanks.
@ Mary
1. Media Reports, the number went down to nine at least within the Israeli Media, about 10 Am the morning of and not the next day.
2. as for the document, the document is 23 pages start reading at page 14. “as in Turkey, with the socalled
Foundation for Human Rights, Liberties, and Humanitarian Relief (IHH). Turkish
authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December
1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons from other regional Islamic militant groups.43 IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items,
including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing
seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were
going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”
Thank you for the reference to I.H.H. How interesting that the U.S. State Department has not designated I.H.H. as having any links to terrorist groups.
As for the constantly changing casualty numbers coming from IDF sources, I don’t know what time zone you are in, but where I was (in Cyprus) it was much later than 10 AM when Israel lowered its claims of dead passengers. That would have been less than 6 hours after the attack began, and while we did our best to keep up with Israeli reports of what had occurred (most of which turned out to be lies) we were kept pretty busy answering our phones and trying to find out names of the dead, however few or many there were. As you know, the IDF confiscated all means of communication the passengers had when it kidnapped them in international waters. They were forced to Israel and thrown in jail without being given any opportunity to contact anyone. We and their families were very worried about them.
Since Israel continued to change the numbers we got tired of trying to keep up, and we merely told journalists who called us the truth: That we had no contact with passengers and no way to verify the figures being given out by Israel.
@ Mary
i corrected my statement about the IHH and state department last night, if you would look at the massages above it’s there.
if my memory serves me well, Alon Ben-David from arutz 10 came with the actual count about 10 AM Israel time (same time zone as cyprus) and stated it wasn’t final yet as the soldiers didn’t finish searching the Marmara.
you can contact them if you so wish.
Yuval, this is just silliness to engage in arguments about numbers of fatalities. You can be sure we were increasingly distressed as Israel kept raising the numbers, and relieved when we finally learned they had revised them downwards. We were not listening to Israeli radio, as clearly you were. We were three women doing our best to deal with calls and emails from families of the passengers, who had learned from IDF reports that there were at least twenty dead and up to fifty others wounded. And phones that never stopped ringing as journalists called in hopes of speaking to passengers, and asking us for updates we were unable to give them.
It would appear you are insinuating that we put out inflated numbers; I assure you we did not. End of discussion.
@ Mary
we have a saying in hebrew “על ראש הגנב בוער הכובע” ask Richard when he gets here to translate.
i wasn’t implying anything, i am aware to the ways the media works, but and that is a big but the demonizing of the actions of the state of israel still takes place today.
Look at MK Zoobi, she states clearly she was away from the place everything took place (she was under the deck and saw nothing – these are her words) yet i didn’t stop her for one second from coming with false accusations that 100’s of soldiers stormed the ship.
i would suggest that everyone would calm down and let all the different committees finish their investigations. then each side will learn its lesson. i think you will be surprised out of the outcome.
as for the next flotilla’s if i were you i wouldn’t participate as Israel will not let any flotilla pass.
i am wondering Mary how come you have nothing to say about that IHH related document, aren’t you bothered at all by their extra curricular activities (as outlined in the document) ?
I could care less about yr personal advice on this subject & stop giving it. It comes across as disingenuous, self-interested, & yet more hasbara.
Debating whether IHH is a terror organization is also off-topic. Do not continue along this line. It’s yet more hasbara. The subject of this post was not IHH & I expect you to honor the comment rules. I’ve warned you about this & intend to hold you to it.
Yuval, I just want to be sure you understand that we (Free Gaza) don’t engage in hasbara. All we wanted was to let people know what was happening, and nobody knew except the participants, and no participants except the attackers were able to give information to the outside world. We tried to keep up with the constantly changing stuff coming out of Israel, and since we knew without even talking to our passengers that a lot of it was bs, we couldn’t really be confident they were giving us true casualty information.
“as for the next flotilla’s if i were you i wouldn’t participate as Israel will not let any flotilla pass”
Thank you for your concern; however no threats from Israel will discourage me or anyone else from joining the flotilla. A lot of lives were lost in the struggles for justice in South Africa and in the American South, but in the end justice prevailed. Israel has already paid a heavy price for attacking the Freedom Flotilla, and the cost will only rise with every attack.
Israel doesn’t seem to get it. We are not intimidated. We don’t back down to bullies.
@ Mary
Give me a brake, everyone is engage is “hasbara” I’m sure you are old enough to know that no ones has monopoly over the truth, hence we are all doing our best to promote what we believe in.
that includes, Me, You Hanin Zoabi and everyone else, especially. Sometimes people are actually getting caught doing so, and that is what happened with Mk Zoabi this time.
Yuval,
Sorry, I’d really like to give you a brake (sic) but we at Free Gaza don’t engage in hasbara. We really do tell the truth. Kind of like Hamas. That’s an advantage we have over Israel. Like Judge Judy says, if you tell the truth you don’t have to have a good memory.
comment deleted for violation of comment rules
@ Mary
another saying in Hebrew is “אמור לי מי חבריך ואומר לך מי אתה”
Free Gaza Movement aligned itself with Hamas which the only democratic act they ever committed was selecting which member of the PLO they should kill next, and which method they should use in doing so. (or maybe it never took place and its all Hasbara ?)
Free Gaza Movement aligned itself with IHH, which according to the report made in 2006 is a front for terror activities all over the world. (or maybe israel knowing that in 2010 there would be a flotila fabricated the report right ?)
and you claim (sic) to even walk next to the truth.
i guess in Britain where Air Marshal Harris is now treated as as a war crime, everything possible.
@Yuval
I don’t want to intervene in your exchange with Mary Hughes-Thompson (in which I’m mostly on her side, although I obviously disagree with her support of Hamas).
Just a question to you: why do you find it necessary to identify with Marshal Arthur “Bones” Harris, and why do you think it makes your argument any more acceptable, rather than the opposite?
Meni Zehavi,
Thanks for saying you agree with me (somewhat) but where did you get the idea I “support Hamas?”
I am not Palestinian so it’s not up to me to support a political party except the one that (supposedly) represents me in my own country. As for Free Gaza, we do not support or work with any government. We are not political. We work only with NGO’s.
@Mary Hughes-Thompson
This is your statement which I had in mind: “We really do tell the truth. Kind of like Hamas. That’s an advantage we have over Israel.”
Now, as far as I see it, Hamas is just another power-hungry political movement. Leaderships of such movements lie without hesitation if it promotes their interests. That must be common knowledge for anyone who watched politics closely – at least in this part of the world. Therefore, saying that Hamas “really does tell the truth” – if a general state of things rather than any specific occurrence is involved – requires a suspension of disbelief, which seems to me to reflect some measure of sympathy toward the said movement.
Now, I do appreciate your efforts to end the siege on the Gaza Strip, which in its present form is a brutal collective punishment against the Gazan population, and hence inadmissible (prevention of arms supply to Hamas would be justified, but that should be done through different mechanisms, probably with participation of the international community). I am also glad to see that you define your activity as non-political in this context. But I hope that helping people governed by an armed junta (and that’s what the Hamas regime is, having used force to seize absolute power in Gaza) can be done without endorsing the junta as the one who “tells the truth” as a matter of habit.
If you look carefully and objectively at Hamas’ record (& write this as someone who does not support Hamas’ Islamist agenda) it has a far better record of truth and accuracy than Israel. We may not like many of the things Hamas stands for, but I have rarely found it to lie outright. You speak about lying in generalities that do not speak directly to Hamas’ record which considerably weakens yr claim, at least regarding it.
As for Hamas being an “armed junta,” you are aware that Hamas only took power in Gaza because the Bush administration was fomenting an armed takeover by Fatah of the PA?? This story has been widely reported & I would hope you would be aware of it. Though there was much violence on both sides for which they ea. deserve blame, Fatah & the Bush administration initiated this catastrophe & you should account for this when you make the comments you’ve made.
@ Meni Zehavi:
It’s understandable that you see some of my comments about Hamas as “supporting them.” What I support is the right of the Palestinian people to elect their own leaders. In my own country I see people who have been elected to powerful positions as being guilty of far worse crimes than those attributed to Hamas. I see such people among Israel’s current and former leaderships too. I think Hamas is wrong in many things it does, mostly in the way it treats some of its own citizens (if I dare use the word citizen when referring to Palestinians.) I think Hamas was elected because it is a political party seen by Palestinians as far less corrupt than the alternative. Hamas IS a political party. Some say the problem in Palestine is that Hamas and Fateh can’t get along. Well, my answer to that is that in the U.S. the democrats and republicans can’t get along.
I think the Palestinians are fed up with leaders who suck up to Israel and the U.S., an after six decades of being lied to, stolen from, killed by neighbors who have claimed to want to live side by side with them in peace, they are fed up. Me too. I personally don’t think the democratically elected leaders in Gaza want anything more than to set their people free. Their methods in my opinion are no worse and in some cases far more moral than those used by Israel and its supporters. Hamas has many times stated it recognizes Israel, though not as a zionist state. I have no disagreement with that. Palestinians are not allowed to fight Israel as equals, so they are forced to become “terrorists” which is exactly what the early zionists were until they got elected to power and became icons who would no doubt ave been canonized as saints if they had been Christians. Nelson Mandela was a “terrorist.” So was Jomo Kenyatta. So was Che Guevera. So was Lech Walesa.
I guess I am crediting Hamas with some level of integrity because every truce that has been announced has been broken by Israel. In my opinion the negative things that can justifiably be said about Hamas have little to do with their resistance to Israeli occupation and warmongering. Just my opinion.
@ MZ
For the record I though he was known as Marshal “Bomber” Harris. You calling him “Bones” is my point exactly. Everyone knows who the bad guys in WWII were. With the twist of morals that this world is facing, those that were assigned the task of defeating the German war machine, those who received many decorations from the people of their own generation, for their contribution and success in defeating that tremendous evil force, suddenly are being treated like war criminals. To me this is extremely disturbing. Everyone knows that Hamas engages in terror activities, everyone know Hamas fire rockets and mortars into Israel, yet people like MHT refer to it as if it was a charity organization and put it in the same line with reputable individuals like lech walensa, jomo kenyato and others.
I’d say just as many know that Israel does precisely the same though with far more firepower & lethality.
@Yuval
“Bones” as in “I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier.”
It is very short-sighted to divide the world into “good guys” and “bad guys,” especially if one forgets that “bad guys” also have rights that must be safeguarded. The reason for this is that you can never be sure you won’t be defined by someone as a “bad guy,” with all that this entails.
The bombing of Dresden, which became the main operation associated with Marshal Harris’ name (one can argue whether that was justified), was directed, first and foremost, against the city’s inhabitants and the refugees who escaped there from the Eastern Front. Its purely military objectives, insofar as such existed, were clearly secondary. Given this, the bombing of Dresden should be classified as a war crime. During and shortly after the war, the public in the Allied countries was too much psychologically engaged in support of the war effort to admit this (although criticism of the Dresden bombing was voiced by British politicians in the real time). But thankfully, time has passed, the dust has settled, and most people in Europe now appear to realize that the bombing was a crime. By endorsing people like Harris, with absolutely no need for it, you make yourself look like a bloodthirsty villain. The problem is not so much with you personally, of course, as it is with the fact that this self-damaging attitude is adopted by Israel as a whole.
Now, as I said, I don’t have much sympathy for Hamas. Yet, I consider it unacceptable that the whole population of the Gaza Strip should be held hostage because of the Hamas regime. With the damage caused by Hamas to Israel, in terms of the loss of life and limb, never being higher than the damage caused by routine traffic accidents, it doesn’t look very sensible to try to portray Hamas as a kind of existential threat to the Jewish people, which would allegedly justify the death and destruction poured upon the Palestinian society by Israel.
@Mary Hughes-Thompson
You said: “I think Hamas is wrong in many things it does, mostly in the way it treats some of its own citizens.”
You may find it curious, but I tend to agree that Hamas’s treatment of its own citizens is the main problem with this organization. See, their attacks did cause damage to Israel, and the attacks were directed at Israeli civilians far more often than at the Israeli military, but the damage was not that great. (Of course, for those who lost their loved ones or were maimed in the Hamas attacks, the damage is terrible, but I speak now in general terms, which is the only way to carry out a more or less general assessment of the situation.) Israel can live and even prosper in spite of Hamas attacks.
The question is, what this movement wants for its own people, and what it is ready to risk for it. I can understand their fight against the Israeli occupation, but what is that fighting for? Did it ever make the end of the occupation more likely? What is the total balance of gains vs. losses brought to the Palestinian people by this movement?
Don’t take me wrong: I am not trying to dictate to the Palestinians what their best interests should be. I am, first of all, asking questions. Second, I do have to point out that the Israeli government is accountable before its own citizens, which makes it sometimes hold down its weapons if it fears that war-mongering will bring too much damage on its people – even if militarily it has an upper hand over its opponents, and if there is an immediate public support for more war. This is how the Lebanon war of 2006 came to an end. Whoever the Palestinian leaders are (and I do think the Palestinians should freely elect their leaders), I would certainly prefer them to adopt the same approach. Otherwise, this land will see only more violence and more suffering, on both sides, and along the way Israel will be carried further to ultra-nationalistic, cult-of-force politics – which I, as an Israeli, find more dangerous, in the long run, than the Hamas attacks.
As for Hamas’s conduct with regard to its own citizens, see, e.g., this report by Amira Hass:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/what-hamas-is-really-afraid-of-1.308264?localLinksEnabled=false
The impression which this gives is that of a mediocre dictatorship. It may be better than the Israeli occupation regime, but still not something worth much support, in my view.
I don’t think it’s yr proper role to engage this question since the outcome doesn’t affect you except indirectly. Palestinians themselves will answer this question the next time Israel allows them to vote, which may be never at this rate. Palestinians already voted one time to allow Hamas to run the PA. That’s the only way to determine whether Hamas has something to offer the Palestinians. SO far, a significant cross section of the thinks Hamas has something to offer them. That may upset you. But again, it’s not really your business. If you want to criticize them as an outsider be my guest. But there’s no reason I can see that anyone should pay you much attention.
Now, if you want to criticize Hamas for things it does that impact Israel, then yes you have a right to do so. But as to what it does for Palestinians themselves, that’s their job as citizens to determine.
Sure sounds a lot like that to me. And if you’re not, why don’t you step back & allow Palestinians to make those decisions themselves??
You’ve articulated yr questions in such a way that we know the answers you’ve come up with. Your questions are leading ones.
@ MZ
The notion that people are not responsible for the action of their regime was denied a long time ago, and that is one of the reasons the Germans are paying monies to holocaust survivor 62 years after.
The people of Gaza are responsible for the actions of those who they elected, just like the people in the USA or Israel or any other democracy. After all Hamas was democratically elected right? That includes paying a price (whatever the price may be) for the policy of their elected government, from paying taxes to fighting in wars and dying in wars, especially if armed conflict was chosen as a policy by their regime. I can’t throw rocks at a house of my neighbor who’s encroaching into my property (in the USA) without expecting consequences, and Hamas can’t expect to fire rockets without expecting the same. Any other way of putting it is simply playing with words. They have what they think is legitimate demands? The place to discuss them is around a table (and according to the governing agreement in the PA, they do not have the power to discuss that, the PA president ABBAS has it)
As for the bombing of Dresden, when Churchill was asked about it he answered with one word “Coventry”.
Whoa, that’s totally disingenous. And even if that’s so, the Israeli people are responsible for any war crimes committed by their leaders. Yet you & other Israelis scream bloody murder when any outside body attempts to hold you accountable for those actions.
Second, in reality the people of Gaza were never allowed to elect Hamas as their leaders. The people of Palestine chose to elect Hamas to run the PA but the U.S. & Israel organized a coup which failed. So the problem is if you want to make Hamas accountable for its actions you have to allow it to govern in the traditional sense, which no one has allowed it to do. So I’ll make a deal w. you: tell yr government to end the siege, allow new elections, & then if Hamas wins & terror continues, you hold Hamas & Gazans responsible for the terror. But if Hamas wins & there is no terror or very limited terror, then you negotiate a final status peace agreement based on 67 borders, sharing Jerusalem and a modified Right of Return: a deal?
I didn’t think so.
Another false analogy. In the U.S., you go to the city & show the inspector your deed & when he sees your neighbor has stolen yr land he makes him tear the building down & restores you to yr property. And then you sue the bastard. Can the Palestinians reasonably do any of these things? No.
Ah, just when I thought you were going to acknowledge Israel should negotiate with Hamas, you weaseled yr way out of it.
@ Yuval
> The notion that people are not responsible for the
> action of their regime was denied a long time ago,
> and that is one of the reasons the Germans are paying
> monies to holocaust survivor 62 years after.
You do understand that you have just offered justification for any country whose citizens fell victim to the actions of the Israeli government (Turkey, anyone?) to kill Israeli citizens at will, don’t you? See, there’s a great difference between the responsibility of citizens for the acts of their government (which, by the way, is accepted only to a very limited degree) and massive murder of the said citizens (which is what the Dresden bombing was mostly about).
By the way, private German citizens don’t pay a penny to Holocaust survivors, even those citizens who can be proven to have actively participated in the Holocaust. The Bundesrepublik pays, as a sort of successor state to the Third Reich.
> The people of Gaza are responsible for the actions
> of those who they elected, just like the people in the
> USA or Israel or any other democracy.
> After all Hamas was democratically elected right?
Why do you ignore the coup of June 2007?
Before the coup, the Hamas government was internationally penalized for refusing to recognize the PLO’s agreements with Israel (which it was, strictly speaking, not obligated to do). Israel had better grounds for severing contacts with the Hamas-governed PNA, but nobody thought at that time to use Hamas’s non-recognition of the agreements as justification for military attacks on the Palestinians.
> I can’t throw rocks at a house of my neighbor who’s
> encroaching into my property (in the USA) without
> expecting consequences, and Hamas can’t expect to
> fire rockets without expecting the same.
So Israel had a legitimate cause for military action against Hamas. Fine. Why did it go on a massive attack, which left hundreds of non-Hamas civilians dead, thousands maimed and the livelihoods of many more destroyed? And more to the point of our discussion, why do you find it necessary now to present that massacre as something commendable?
> They have what they think is legitimate demands?
> The place to discuss them is around a table
Hamas did not necessarily oppose that. They voiced different kinds of demands, which nobody in Israel was thinking of taking seriously. Like it was with the PLO twenty-thirty years ago. You know how it ended then, and I think it will end more or less the same way with Hamas. But why did all those people that died in the meanwhile have to die?
> (and according to the governing agreement in the
> PA, they do not have the power to discuss that,
> the PA president ABBAS has it)
Not even that. The party to the Oslo Accords, on the Palestinian side, is the PLO. Which is why the Hamas government was under no obligation to recognize those agreements (it could have worked out different ones, of course).
> As for the bombing of Dresden, when Churchill was
> asked about it he answered with one word “Coventry”.
Crime inflicted on one side by another gives the latter side no justification to commit a crime against the former. Yet, I can understand Churchill’s war-time statements (by the way, he understood that the Dresden bombing was “too much,” but he would not voice it in public). What I cannot understand is why present-day people find it justified to cite that bombing as a kind of moral or political guideline? For Israelis, at least, such an approach is clearly self-damaging.
i’m sorry forgot one sentence, in the first interview
MK Zoabi states that her request that the soldiers will provide medical assistance to the critically wounded civilians was declined by the soldiers.
just FYI the first part of the second video was taken by one of the people aboard the Marmara not bu the soldiers, the second part may have been taken by the soldiers.
Yes, the sources in Cyprus were the three of us who were running the media office for Free Gaza. And as I have already stated, we were contacted by many members of the press but we refused to confirm ANY fatalities until they were confirmed by IDF and Israeli official sources. Once Israel put out the numbers we thought they ought to be credible. The passenger deaths announced by Israel kept rising, and then the next day they lowered them to nine.
“No, you can’t win with these people. They simply want their pound of Arab flesh and will take it any way they can.”
Maybe you should choose your language a little more carefully.
Don’t worry about his language. He writes lots of stuff in which he doesn’t actually believe in order to shock and promote his agenda (and get his daily dose of “zumi” = attention).
That does it, you’ve lost yr comment privileges.
I wrote that very deliberately & carefully & meant precisely what I wrote.
doesnt seem to me that they are trying to paint the mk as a terrorist
more that she is untruthful regarding what she witnessed and what she knew about the passengers of the mavi marmara
the mk is a relatively intelligent woman. im not buying that she was ignorant of passengers being on the boat who had in mind causing harm to idf soldiers if they landed on board.
as was shown in the lee video, at least two other passengers knew what would happen
and she is definitely being untruthful about the idf refusing to provide treatment to those who have been wounded.
as to why the idf and the israeli government continue to release tapes. well, you may ask why the un feels the need so many months later to stage an investigation.
yes…the operation was mucked up…most likely by barak…who needs to resign.
but the mk was not being truthful in her early interviews, and in reality, she should be grateful that she isnt a member of the us congress. a congressperson wouldnt just get a slap on the wrist. more likely, that person would be impeached, expelled from congress and tried for treason.
What isn’t clear to you about an MK accusing her of participating in terror against Israel???
No, she’s not. Passengers have testified that some of the wounded bled to death & could have been saved but were not offered treatment.
What an idiot statement. Can you tell me the last time a member of Congress was ever tried for treason? Aren’t you embarrassed at the level of yr inanities? Or are you so filled w. self-regard that these bon mots actually appear to you to be penetrating insights??
richard,
you are correct. i cant remember the last time a congress person was tried for treason
but i cant recall the last time a congress person intentionally assisted in breaking a us blockade….can you?
know any congress person who has traveled to cuba recently?
I know Congress members who have broken the Israel blockade of Gaza & I salute them for it.
And yes, Jim McDermott & another Congress member went to Iraq just before the 2003 war & were excoriated for doing so. But they’re heroes in my book. Nancy Pelosi visited Syria when the Bush administration was boycotting it. She too was accused of treason by the WSJ, which suggested she should be tried & jailed. She wasn’t.
unclejoe, I see you’re still your cute, adorable self, spreading misinformation and pontificating from the top of a crumbling rockpile. Still talking nonsense about passengers lying in wait for the commandos, wielding their sticks and deck chairs, eh? Lethal weapons in the face of live Israeli fire, they managed not to kill a single commando, but nine of them were shot to death, at least five in the back of the head. All while the Israelis were attacking an unarmed civilian vessel in international waters.
Now you’re bloviating about Zoabi being untruthful, even after her statements have been made quite clear. Disingenuous at best, deliberately poisoning the well at worst.
Name one person who has ever been expelled from Congress in the manner you describe. Enlighten us further.
can you recall any member of congress who has acted as the mk has?
im not talking speaking out against us policies…im talking about acting upon those policies
I find it funny how you, Mary and the likes regress backwards to unrelated issues whenever you are proven wrong. It’s like some pyramid that if you fail to build another level you just fall back down onto the last one, recycling arguments that are not relevant to the current issue that is discussed.
One fact is undeniable here: Haneen Zuabi is a liar. She may occasionally tell the truth but in this case she lied. I don’t care very much what some knesset members say because they are politicians and demogogues just like yourself Richard.
It is my understanding that Knesset Chairman Rivlin asked the “yoamash” (forgive me for not remembering the english term) to check if her actions were against the law in light of this new video. In my opinion the whole ordeal is pretty stupid, immature and probably will not produce any fruits in the form of criminal charges. However, Haneen Zuabi is still a liar and deserves all the criticism she is receiving for this action.
Also, I would definitely NOT call MK Zoabi “charismatic and fluent in Hebrew”. She is hardly fluent in Hebrew and her interviews are quite hard for us to understand because she has difficulties forming complete sentences.
I would, for example, call MK Ahmed Tibi fluent (and VERY charismatic, which is appealing to many jewish Israelis even though they don’t agree with his opinions).
No, I’d call you a liar since you deliberately falsify facts & frankly I’m tired of your abuse of my comment rules which indicate commenters will be penalized for deliberate distortions, misstatements or overstatements.
Another comment rule violation. YOU really are pushing it.
What stupid lies. I’m fluent in Hebrew & I have heard her speak Hebrew & it is prob. you who can’t speak complete sentences in either Hebrew or English. Her Hebrew is fine. Your brutishness & obnoxiousness tire me & I grow weary of reading another word you write.
I applaud your support and rationale for MK Zoabi and her position regarding the Gazan flotilla episode. It does seem rather childish that some Knesset members should react in so hostile and so predictable a fashion. Maybe they’ve lost the capacity for real debate or that the taste for honest, open-minded discussion on the merits or demerits of the incident is now quite beyond them. If such is the case, one wonders how they can justify drawing their salary. Mere name-calling, verbal attacks and physical intimidation can hardly be truly representative of the normal cut and thrust of Israeli politics. Or am I mistaken in that belief?
However, as I’ve said on other occasions, everything in this conflict is symptomatic of a greater, underlying malaise, the pillorying of MK Zoabi being just one further example. And that is the inability to deal calmly, collectively and in an even-handed manner with the core issue, that of the land of Israel/Palestine and its settled ownership. This issue is still unresolved and likely to remain so if not addressed in a more robust and forthright manner.
An analogy. My central heating boiler broke down this week. It’s an old one, had it for well over 20 years; never had it serviced and yet it performs well enough. On many previous breakdowns, it’s always been the thermocouple that failed and the procedure for replacement is so simple that I’ve always been able to do it myself. Not so this time.
Eventually I had to call a gas fitter and he replaced the gas valve, a task quite beyond my own meagre expertise.. The boiler now works, perhaps even better than before.
My point being that there comes a stage in certain matters where you’ve got to bite the bullet, stop tinkering with the problem and bring in some outside help, even if that help might cost a little more than is usual.
The recent Lebanon-Israel border tree dispute, MZ Zoabi, the flotilla incident, the Jerusalem construction debacle, the Cast Lead operation, the Gaza blockade and a whole host of other such occurrences are but symptoms, offshoots of a much wider problem, one that is not going to go away while all we stay absorbed, rightly or wrongly, by the minutiae of the situation and not its central component.
It might be argued that this website, Tikum Olam, also contributes a degree of unintended obfuscation by its illumination of so many different facets of the Palestinian/Israeli struggle. Although always erudite and rational, the overall product may have become too diffuse, too indirect to be an effective determinant in actually ‘making the world a better place.’
There are times when it’s necessary to concentrate one’s firepower at a specific target and not loose off at all and sundry, no matter how tempting that may be.
My boiler may last for another 20 years as it’s now under contract to be maintained and serviced at regular intervals. Maybe the same could be applied to the combustible question of Israeli/Palestinian interaction. Otherwise, when that ‘boiler’ blows up again, it will be of little comfort or assistance to say ‘ you were advised to get someone in to deal with that long ago. Why on earth didn’t you do so?’
I dont blame her for “Israel’s own mistake”, Richard. I blame her for writing few days later (when it was already confirmed the number of the killed was 9) that 6 people were still missing, and wondering what happened to those people, and what was they real identity. Might be only me – but i usually know personalyl the people i call “friends”. She also provided few interesting theories about what really happened on the ship, how “proffesional soilders” were supposed to handle the situation and other perls of wisdow – which were not supported by anything but her personal beliefes (which were enough – for some reason – in marys case).
btw, if is not obvious (there are two maries here ) im talking about Mary and not Mary Hughes-Thompson.
Sigh, where should i start?
Richard, Ms Zoabi is not a race. Shes not a religious minority, a nation or anything else. Even ALL the palestinian MKs in israel are not. They are simply a bunch of people who were elected to represent their people. How claiming they are not doing their jobs is being racist?
Richard you dont have to try to disagree with people so hard. Seriously. id expect from someone like urself – a grown up person with phd degree, who talks about peace, understanding and accepting others – not to “explode”, as we say in hebrew, on every other person here like a 15 years old kid (especially when this person admited more than once he shares many of your/yor readers view on the i-p conflict, and didnt write anything provoking).
I’ll have more respect for henin zoabi when shell use her talent to convince her people to stop the hamulot fights we read about every other day, or to stop killing their women when they marry certain people.
(and before u run and accuse me in racism again – here are two links to study from :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Middle_East
http://thereport.amnesty.org/regions/middle-east-north-africa
)
Richard, u use this arguement “you dont know anything about palestinians” a bit too much, and it doesnt become more valid because u repeat it so often. You dont know me, where do i come from, how many palestinians i got to know personally,etc etc
Heres a surprise for you: as someone who comes from a family of immigrants, who worked in different shitty jobs a few years ago and whos parents are still working in shitty jobs – i talked / met more palestinians than will ever visit ur site, and im talking about real, common people, with whom i spent a few hours every day – not pseudo intellectuals who come to the web to “represent”.
p.s please spare the usual “give me their emails or they dont exist”. IF u really dont believe people here mix up on that level – u apparently have a very twisted perception of israel.
As ive already said, ill have more respect to people like henin zuabi when she starts constantly talking to her people about womens rights, childrens rights and stuff like that – and not only about liberation of gaza (without diminishing the importance of that issue, of course)
We read about shootings in jaffo every othre week, and i dont remember any palestinian MK (except for one, actually) standing up and saying anything against it.
Might be surprising for you, Richard, but those palestinians in israel also have issues that are not related to state discrimination or occupation of west bank/gaza, and saying that their representives do very little to change it has nothing to do with racism – as much as u enjoy use it as an automatic counter/block against anyone u disagree with/who criticizes anything related to palestinians.
You wonder why the jewish parties dont accept arabs in coallition? first of all, they did in the past (rabin did – u are free to check it on wikipedia if u think im inventing it), but
the answer to that is simple: israel is ruled by right winged half fascists like eli ishai and lieberman, So? If henin zuabi has enough power to get on a boat to gaza – im sure she also has enough power to call her people (and palestinians in the occupied territories) and to convince them to respect women, etc.
Her people? I thought she was a member of the Knesset, which represents the ISRAELI people. Your nonsense about her “talking to her people about womens rights, childrens rights, stuff like that” is merely your attempt at scapegoating her and the Arab people in general while the lily-white, European-Israeli majority are the epitome of morality and justice. That’s quite a disgusting ploy in any discussion.
By joining the flotilla, Zoabi was indeed adding her voice to many – against the occupation and the siege. This, I imagine, includes the oppression of all Palestinians, not merely cherrypicking to focus on “women and children” as you would have her do. Her decision to join the flotilla was courageous and admirable.
I also think you need to get straight in your head just whom you are referring to and addressing in your comments. If you are addressing either myself or Mary Hughes-Thompson, please refer to us by those names.
HUH? first of all, yes HER people. Do u really think she ran to the knesset to represent ME or any other jew her? come n.. thats getting pathetic. Besides, sectorial parties is not the problem of the arab sector only . Religios jewish folks here have their own parties, and so do the immigirants. So yes, eli ishai doesnt represent ME, but the religious haredim who vote for him, and henin zuabi most defently doesnt represent me either. Thats how knesset works. You’re welcomed to read more instead of writing some politcly correct utopical nonsense, which is disconnected from the real life here, about someone like zuabi “representing israeli people”.
If you dont trust me i hope u trust the owner of this blog, because he wrote the following :
and this is EXACTLY what im arguing about. Shes so busy with being interviewed and telling how much she opposes the jewish state, joining the flottila, etc that she “forgets” her people have real problems, which she actually can attempt to solve, and that doesnt have to do anythnig with occupation
Yes, im sorry to disapoint you, but killing because of family honour is an arab tradition (and mentioning it exists doesnt turn me to racist, or doesnt mean im saying “jews are better”, so dont bother with that nonsense), so to solve this problem in HER sector (which has NOTHING to do with the occupation, as it also happens in free syria, jordan and other countries) she can actually talk to the people who voted for her, and try to stop this.
“Nonsesne”? When did i compare them to “European -israeli majority”? the only nonsense here is what ur writing, with ur oh-so-common habbit on this site to put words in your opponents mouth. So if i wonder why henin zuabi doesnt do anything about the killings for the honour of the family in israel when richard writes about her being a “powerful representative for her people” – it means im saying jews are perfect, right? Stop suffering from inferiority complex, mary, not everytime someone criticizes any palestinian around the globe its racism and comparison to “elite jews”.
Mary, heres a breaking news report for you: henin zuabi has ENOUGH time for both – joining useless flotillas to gaza AND actually doing something for the people who elected her (and you know what? if u r so sure she actually cares about jews here as well – then replace the “people who elected her” with “citizens of israel”). Fact is, she (just like her fellow palestinian MKs doesnt bother herself with that, and thats the only thing ive written – not that it means “jews are better” or any other nonsense ur trying to put in my mouth – because its too hard for u to admit im right.
I also think you need to get straight in your head just whom you are referring to and addressing in your comments. If you are addressing either myself or Mary Hughes-Thompson, please refer to us by those names
I actually wrote that i was talking to you, but i guess like many others here u dont read, but scan peoples posts to see how u can invert what they say to accuse them they believe in jewish supremacy or just being general racists.
That of course makes everything u write as true and correct as if was given to us by lord the allmighty.
Wow, I guess you’re really scared by the flotillas 🙂 Most of what you’ve claimed in your comments has been incorrect. You’re so transparently defensive that I need only respond briefly.
Zoabi, by virtue of her service in a collective governmental body, can be said to be a representative of the people. However, as you know, an Arab can never aspire to be prime minister – the “democracy” prevents it. You would give her the job of caring for women and children – how pathetically sexist to assign such a task to a female Arab MK. And now pathetically and offensively racist you are to make such remarks about Arabs. You’re disgusting.
Way to miss the point with your prejudice.
I’m sure he would’ve “given” a male Arab MK the same task. Not because it’s what he thinks women should do, but because he thinks it’s what’s important.
Wow, is your logic is backwards.
And yes, democracy, without the silly cynical quotation marks prevents it. You know what needs to happen in order for someone to be PM? A majority of votes. It’s very unlikely an Arab will be a PM in Israel, not because Israel is a fascist state, but because democracy, I’ll repeat, democracy, prevents it.
Fascist here, disgusting there, etc. etc… perhaps if you would bother to see beyond the veil of affection you feel for the Palestinians (certainly not something I am trying to belittle, since I have affection for them as well [and don’t even try to deny that]), you would see reality as it is. Put emotion aside and try to see eye to eye with people.
Look, I’m certainly not an advocate for Israel’s policies (as you might find out if you ever actually bother to listen to what people say), but the way you and others here (including Richard) talk to others – some of them almost entirely in agreement with you, again, if you bothered to listen – is not only disparaging, childish, and pointless, but also serves as a barrier from an understanding between people.
When mature people think someone is saying something that is false or simply ridiculous (out of ignorance, or whatever else), they don’t constantly patronize them. I admit I have allowed myself to go down to your level before, but whenever I reread my posts I am disgusted. All I ask is that you stop bring arrogant. We are adults and we are all here because we CARE. Care about both Israelis and the Palestinians.
But he didn’t, now did he? And while we’re talking about sexism, I saw an awful lot of it in the physical assault by big tough Israeli MKs on this small, diminutive woman who somehow managed to hold her own in the face of the hatred hurled against her.
You mean racism prevents it because the Jewish majority wouldn’t support a Palestinian PM no matter what his or her political record or beliefs. I’ve got news for you though. Israeli society will eventually become radically transformed & there will come a day when a Palestinian WILL be PM, whether you like it or not. And guess what further? The sky won’t fall. Jews won’t be swept into the sea. People will still enjoy their capuccinos in Tel Aviv. It will be something like what happened here when Barack OBama became our first African American president.
With affection like yrs. they don’t need enemies. When have you voiced an affectionate word for Palestinians?
Shai, my comment was not directed to you, so why are you responding to it?
If my behavior needs modifying or criticizing on this blog, I’m sure Richard will take care of the job without your help.
I have more than an “affection” for Palestinians; I have Palestinian friends and family. I know how their lives are lived, I know the situation in Israel and Palestine quite well. And I find racist generalizations, and the people who so smugly make them, disgusting.
Why am I responding? I didn’t notice a rule that says you can only respond when directly addressed.
I’m responding because I enjoy receiving content from this blog, but when I try to engage in conversation I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.
Your behavior doesn’t “need” anything. I’m merely asking you to consider what I’ve said. I was simply being honest, because discussing matters in the manner I described is not something I consider enjoyable or productive.
And about racist generalizations – I think you’re looking to find them where they don’t exist. You should ask people what they mean when they say something instead of theorizing and assuming things that may not be true.
Richard, i’d like u to notice how AGAIN mary attacks a user she argues with (this time its me – in previous cases it were other people). Ill be glad to write u an email with a collection of alll such cases. Of course, you’re also welcomed to ignore htis and treat her like shes smoe saint peace nobel price holder, like u have so far.
Mary, using big words and insulting doesnt make ur point valid. but wait, right, you didnt make any point. you just looked very hard for racism in my words and called me sexist. why? because i wondered why palestinian MKs didnt do anything for people who elect them. Astonishing logic. you cant lose with that, of course.
Yes, im having nightmares mary. ur reading me like an open book. except for that if i was the p.m of my country id probably let the navi marmara pass, and probably would have raised the blockade of gaza years ago, but other than that – i constantly cant sleep because flottials bother me so much.
You dont “need” to respond mary, especially when u dont have any valid point to make, and the only thing ur capabale of is writing “Racism” again. Is there any remark mentioning palestinians one can make without being racist in ur book? if i write most of the Humus restoraunts in israel are owned by palestinians, or at least the best among them, will ibe called racist again? Perhaps its u who’ve been over defenisive, mary ,to a point where u cant really understand writing “palestinian” or “palestinian mk” is not a curse and not a racist remark. not to mention i actually didnt bring stuff out of my head, but wrote about existing issues, and asked why the palestinian mks dont do anytthing about them (and i really, really dont care they go on flottilas, or jump to gaza with parachoutes or anything else – but my point that they have enough time for both, and they prefer to not care about anything else stands still)/
Mary, from a specialist like u id expect to know one can suggest / pass laws without actually being a p.m in israel. The knesset is also divided to different commisions on different issues, and a mk can actually do stuff without getting to be a P.M. But wait, what u write its even worse – u accuse me of racism and sexism becausei claim zoabi doesnt do anything for anyone and then suddently agree with me and try to give lame explanation why she doesnt?
She doesnt need to be a pm to help her people to advance, or at least attempt to – shes just not interested in doing so (probably because im sexist and racist, right?)
Actually, yes, and i did talk about all the palestinian MKs. zoabi was just a sample because this thread was about her – not because shes a woman, but dont let facts confuse you – as we say in hebrew. keep thinking that im a sexist racist, just because i wish from knesset members to CARE about people who voted for them (at least, yes in a perfect world id also expect from zoabi to care about myself, but thats as possible as getting a ticket to the moon)
Right, because he modified u so far when u personally threatened users they dont wanna see ur bad side, when u said u got under somee users “Reptile skin”, when u mentioned time and again u hated israel and didnt bleieve it has a right to exist, etc etc.
p.s i found an old post of urs about life in pakistan where u explained how women werent +- allowed to talk there. doesnt such a remark about great country makes u racist and sexist? or ur allowed to pass critic on arabs/muslims because u r one urself?
I’m finding the attacks on Mary to be quite distasteful & want them to stop. If you have something to say about the actual content of the post then do so. If you want to engage in a cross-thread border war w. Mary–not here. This takes the threads in a direction I don’t want them to go. So don’t go there.
No. It has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with different MKs’ agendas. I don’t think there will ever be a PM from Shas either, does that mean antisemitism prevents it? Like I said, backwards logic.
Let me assure you that the moment an Arab party represents the majority of Israelis, the head of that party will be PM. This is what happens in a democracy.
When I said that it’s unlikely an Arab will be PM, I meant in the foreseeable future. Obviously if/when there is an Arab majority in Israel, it will become likely.
I’m not here to show empathy. I have voiced my affection for them many times before, but it would not serve any purpose here other than “earning points”. I’m fairly convinced that even if I did you would accuse me of being dishonest. So here it is: I do feel horrible about the occupation, about poverty in Gaza, about serious humanitarian crises, about racism in Israel, and so on. Are you pleased now? Can we move on to actually discussing how to solve these issues? Or would you rather continuously repeat the ceremony of placing me in a position where I have to defend my claims with something entirely irrelevant?
If your governing coalitions incorporated Palestinian parties then indeed Zoabi & her Palestinian colleagues WOULD & should be expected to represent more than their own narrow ethnic interests. But as it is the fact that the Knesset ghettoizes its Palestinian members & renders them relatively powerless, then yes they naturally stay inside an ethnic cocoon & don’t venture outside it. But I would venture that in representing those interests many Palestinian MKs are doing a better job of representing true Israeli interests than many of the Jewish MKs, who btw also represent incredibly narrow ethnic, religious or political constituencies. But you didn’t mention that & I wonder why?
This is completely off topic. This blog is not a place for you to criticize the alleged ethnic weaknesses of Israeli Palestinians (which isn’t the subject of this post). So since you’ve violated my comment rules consistently & over a reasonably long period of time your comments will not be moderated. Which means that further violations may result in you losing yr privileges. And take this warning very seriously if you wish to continue here.
And another btw, when you begin criticizing Jewish MKs for their own weaknesses as vituperatively & bitterly as you do Zoabi, then you might have some credibility.
You have no right to blame her at all. I wrote similar posts here myself. I inquired about the identity of the missing passengers & queried whether they might be dead. All this resulted fr the disaster itself which the IDF wreaked & the stupid, nasty, mendacious ways in which it tried to hide the damage fr. the world.
You can cut out the criticism of my writing style in responding to comments like yours. I have absolutely no interest in hearing fr. readers like you of yr observations or criticisms of it & it is NOT a subject for discussion in the comment threads. Stay on topic.
Your “piling on” Haneen Zoabi is indeed racist. She is a Palestinian Israeli & you & a number of other commenters who have smeared her w. almost no supporting evidence are engaging in racism by levelling absolutely false, ignorant criticisms of her style of political leadership or her political attitudes. I personally think this is garbage & won’t let you or anyone else get away with it. So when I tell you to move on you better do it. Assaults on Haneen Zoabi, unless carefully & precisely & factaully based are pasul here.
More racism. Why don’t you criticize the homicidal nastiness we see in certain Israeli Jewish circles too? Then you might be more credible. And why is it Haneen Zoabi’s personal responsibility to criticize Israeli Palestinians just because it would make you happy if she would? What does she owe to you who already hate her guts? Besides, you don’t have a clue what she’s done on any of these issues since you don’t know anything at all about her real record. YOU’ve never read her Knesset website, attended a lecture or talk she’s given & prob. never even read a profile of her in a credible Israeli newspaper. You’re totally ignorant on these issues. You know what you read about her in typical anti Arab websites or propaganda at Yisrael HaYom or some similar anti-Arab commentator & fr. this you think you know something. Which you do not. You’re ignorant & you’re a racist.
I don’t really care how many Israeli Palestinians you worked with. Working with someone doesn’t mean you know anything about them. And even if you do know such a person on a personal level it means nothing as to what you understand of the social & political developments among Israeli Palestinians. You are ignorant. Your comments & attitude here make that abundantly clear. Perhaps on a scale created for Israeli Jews you may be considered liberal, but that means nothing when viewed by outsiders who don’t share the blindness & prejudices common to you & other (though not all) Israeli Jews.
More racism. You think shootings in Jaffo are the fault of Israeli Palestinians??? These people, both the shooters & victims are the ultimate victims of Israel’s racist society which provides no economic or educational opportunities to such minorities. And what do you know of life in Jaffo? Really? I urge you to read Yudit Ilany’s wonderful blog, OCCUPIED. She is a social worker who actually lives in Yaffo, writes every day about not only those shootings but the real lives of the real people who live there. As oppose to you who are slumming through & haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. And btw, Yudit, as you can tell, is Jewish. But she, as opposed to you, knows what she’s talking about.
Go ahead Mr. Israeli Jewish expert, tell us what issues face the Israeli Palestinians aside from those two huge, monumental ones?? And then tell us where you get off pontificating about social issues facing Israeli Palestinians?
I know that past government’s did include Israeli Arab parties. But that was long ago & it hasn’t happened in well over a decade. As to Israel being ruled by right-wingers who refuse to include Arabs, you’re right to a point. But you would also have to include less obvious figures in your list of those to be denounced like Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert, Bibi, & likely Tzippi all of whom either refused to, or would refuse to if they were PM, include Palestinian parties in government.
[comment violated comment rules]
And so the argument continues and in very much the same vein as it always has done. Who is right, who is wrong, who is more obnoxious than who, who is more deserving of this, whom must be accorded that.
While it may be of genuine concern that certain side issues are debated and opinions aired, the fundamental question remains and it has yet to be addressed in any form capable of furnishing an answer. When can we expect this conflict to be settled and does it still have any possibility of ending well – or at all?
If we are to await some miraculous catharsis within the Jewish community or that of the Palestinians, I feel that, as thing stand, we might have a long stretch ahead of us before that happens. Indeed, it may never happen and the road to Hell, paved as ever with good intentions, continues to welcome every faltering step we take along it.
Well, if the whole thing is going to Hell anyway, then the least we can do is try to impart some style into the journey and bring closure to the matter as fast and as best we can. We might even surprise ourselves in the process.
http://yorketowers.blogspot.com
Much better than these endless tirades against those who are for this and others against that.
Yorke, it isn’t a conflict – it’s an occupation. How does one “solve” an occupation? Easy – the occupier must be compelled to withdraw.
Hi Mary,
Conflict or occupation? Both words may be considered almost interchangeable in this context but the term ”compelling’ does carry with it problems of its own. Remember it’s human beings that are involved here, not chess pieces. We do seem to have this unpredictable side to our nature and very often we react quite badly when it is suggested any of us are in the wrong.
Better to start with a bank sheet and proceed from there. Just so long as real progress can be sensed as an ongoing fact, allowing for none of the usual delaying tactics, the situation can be made to work.
And it can ONLY be made to work by changing the parameters of the present set-up. Which, after 60+ years is probably well overdue for such an upgrade.
John Yorke
amazing words. your two comments are the most balanced at least in this thread for a long time. I agree with you that when we start separating people to different camps we get to no where.
I thought for a while if to email you, as i hoped id get a more serious response this way, but im guessing itll be the same – so ill write here.
Congrats, richard, you’ve been looking for an excuse to moderate me ever since my first psot here (2 weeks ago?) and you finally found it! And why is this? because when u wrote henin zuabi was a “powerful representative” for her people and i disagreed, u atomaticlly classified me as a racist, dragged me into a useless arguement where i merely tried (god knows why, after all, you are always sure you know what peoples opinions are better than they do themselves) to prove there are other issues the palestinians mks can attempt to handle with, except for getting cheap populistic populairty by showing they care about occupied territories, and that claiming so doesnt mean i believe in “jewish supermacy” or any other bullshit people here having been trying to find in my words.
I still dont know which rules exactly ive violated, as my original comment here was about the topic of the thread – henin zuabi, and since shes not a race its really hard for me to nuderstand how and why i was accused of racism, but as i said – thats a rather trivial/standart comeback on ur site, so im not too surprised either.
Richard, im terribly sorry. I keep assuming u read people responses, but apparently this is not the case
so here, let me show u what i wrote earlier in this thread:
I can also go to another threads and find samples of me criticizing the jewish leaders of israel, but as i’ve already said – why would u let facts confuse you?
Besides, the thread was about henin zuabi – not about benjamin netanyahu, so i commented on your post, and didnt see a reason to start an off topic convo about my critics of the jewish leaders. If u ever write a post about eli ishai being a powerfull representive to his people – believe me (or dont – i dont really care) – youll get the same response from me u got now about henin zoabi.
Actually yes “he” did. You can re-read my earlier post to see iwrote about 3 times henin zuabi is only a sample of a greater problem, and i mentioned her because THE POST WAS ABOUT HER, and not about ahmad tibi, or other MKs. Accusing me of “sexism” because we’re talking about a female MK? The sole fact that u made this connection in ur mind between the subject of the thread and the issues i borught up is simply sad. That of course said without forgetting that i talked about hamulot fight at first – clearly not “womens or children” issue.
Sure, like every criticizing of any palestinian on earth is racist. This is the same logic,btw, that Shimon peres is using when he blames UK in being “traditionally antisemitic” or any other bullshit like this. Jews like shimon peres think that criticizing any jew/israeli antisemitism. You and ur friends on this site think that criticizing any palestinian is anti palestinian racism. Of course, this logic is undefeatable.
Another attempt (the 1000th probably) to put words/ opinions in my mouth. Now please, wher eexactly did i write i hated Henin Zuabi? I didnt even write i think she should be punished for joining the flottila. I dont have anything against her, against her right ot join flottilas or to express her opinion. I merely stated she was a populist – like 99% of the israeli MKs (yes, especially the palestinian ones). You turned this into “racism” and “hate”. I know u dont work this way, but usually mature people are capable of criticizing/receiving critics without actually hating.
Yes, you read me like an open book. I have the picture of Israel hayom’s editor above my bed and pray to it 3 times a day. This is why i wrote i thought israeli leaders were half fascists, because im full of anti arab propaganda.
And sure, reading blogs of course teaches u way more about peoples issues than talking to someone who has 10 brothers and who had to leave school at age of 14, because he had to spport his family, or to some woman who was forced to leave her hometown after her ex-husband family shot her son, and threatened her.
Of course, when we talk to our palestinian co-workers we never talk about religion/politics/their personal issues. We only exchange humus receipts, because there are blogs for “serious discussions”, and this is a law thats not to be broken.
I gave 2 samples. Ended up being called a racist. why should i bother mentioning it again?
Im guessing u somehow will ifnd an excuse to ban me after htis post. too bad, as there are a few people on this site in enjoy sharing opinions (or even arguing – when i learn something new) with. People like Der yassin, Gene Schulman, Mary Hughes-Thompson and maybe others – who can actually write what they think without using pathetic attempts and tricks to find “racism” in the opponents words. I really am sure someone whos as willing to listen to other people without constantly talking about “people like you” and attahcing lables to them as urself has a great chance and all the needed skills to “לתקן את העולם”.
Have a great day, Mr Silverstein
I will not discuss my editorial decisions in the comment thread. If you wish to discuss or appeal such a decision you may do so privately. And you may not do so in the threads either w/o violating comment rules.
As for Haneen Zoabi & your sexist remarks about her. It was you who relegated her to saving Palestinian women and ending revenge killings, all of which are most assuredly “women’s issues.” That’s why commenters have called you sexist.
Not true. I criticize certain Palestinian actions & policies regularly though of course not as often as someone like you would have it. The fact is that Israel has far more power in this situation than the Palestinians. It holds virtually all the cards & so receives more scrutiny & criticism. Though both sides are to an extent victims of this conflict, the Palestinians have suffered infinitely moreso. So I scrutinize Israeli policy as the cause of that suffering.
YOu’re just mincing words here. When you call someone a liar and the other adjectives you’ve used to describe her it’s clear to everyone but yrself what you think of her. I don’t care what you say on this score. Others will examine yr words & judge for themselves.
Hi Objective,
Thank you for that kind observation. Yes, this problem, as you and I seem to see it, is not helped by highlighting the differences and distrust both sides now harbour for each other. The whole affair is analogous to two human fists where, for decades, each has sought to punch aside the other in order to reach a goal they have long sought and much desired. It presents a spectacle that has pained most observers and led many to despair of its resolution. ‘A plague on both your houses’ is not an uncommon epithet in response to the situation.
What then to do? What if both fists could be so repositioned that they find themselves behind one another instead of facing head on as is the more usual manner? Either fist now impacting the other will have the effect of moving that other – but only in the direction it wanted to go in the first place; there’s nothing there to hinder it any more. In others words, blows of any description will assist the recipient in its onward quest while leaving the assailant that much further off from its own intended destination.
I think a very rapid cessation of fisticuffs would then ensue.
Now apply the same procedure to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the results could easily have the same effect. No more violence, no murders, no assassinations, no military adventures, no rocket launches, maybe not even the hard word. Under such a transformed arrangement, the absence of so many impediments to peace must make a settlement of some sort a far more viable option. Indeed, one might almost consider it inevitable in so radical a circumstance.
http://yorketowers.blogspot.com ‘Can you tell what it is yet? Can you see it?’ Rolf Harris
Yorke, are you serious? This is not a dispute between two squabbling neighbors, it is an ongoing belligerent military occupation complete with illegal settlements, all of which violate international laws.
Calling it a “dispute” is an obfuscation and ignores the reality on the ground. There are not “two sides,” as one would find in a war. The war was a long time ago; the occupation remains. The objective is to end the occupation and allow the Palestinian people to exercise their right to return to their homeland.
mary it takes two to tango. Unless we acknowledge that they will go on fighting for the next 60 years.
You should tell that to Bibi Netanyahu who doesn’t seem to believe that he needs a Palestinian partner. He prefers to dance solo.
Who should he dance with, Hamas leadership? Then you have to decide which leadership, either in gaza, west bank or damascus.
Or with Abbas and Saeb Erekat? Abbas is a solo dancer as well. Salam Fayyad perhaps?
Bibi, Ismail Haniyeh, Khaled Mashal, Abbas, Saeb Erekat, Salam Fayyad. Not much of a group dancers.
Ah, the old red herring, the Hamas bogeyman. YOu’ve forgotten there’s a movement called Fatah which has already embraced a 2 state solution, which the Israelis have continually refused to engage. All he has to do is tell Abbas he’s going to accept 67 borders w. minor land swaps, share Jerusalem, & arrange for a partial Right of Return which would mostly (though not entirely) involve compensating refugees for loss of their property & resettling them in Palestine or elsewhere Yes, that’s a tough compromise for an ideologue like Bibi. And perhaps impossible to expect him to change his spots & adopt it. But it’s a fairly simply & straightforward solution that will resolve the conflcit & bring peace. And this IS the resolution that will end up being adopted. The only question is how much deception, manipulation & stalling Bibi will get away w. before it will be implemented (perhaps not by him).
When Israel, the U.S. & others stop demonizing Hamas & allow a new election, then there can be a unified Palestinian political leadership that will take charge & run the place. Maybe it will be Fatah, maybe Hamas, maybe an independent movement. The fault for Palestinian division ultimately lies in the Bush administration & Israel which fomented the ill fated Fatah coup. When we stop all this nonsense & let Palestinians go about their business of running their society, things can return to a semblance of normalcy. Till then, they will be a total mess thanks to the players I mentioned.
Problem is Abbas doesn’t represent palestinian people. He’s too weak, he can’t deliver anything. Hamas does and for the moment different leadership of Hamas give different views how to solve this conflict. Some talk about the 1948 borders, some 1967 borders. Just recently Hamas objected direct talks.
With which leadership do you engage?
No senior leaders of Hamas talk about 1948 borders. The top leader Meshal has given mulitple interviews acknowledging he’d accept 67 borders. Hamas certainly objects to the current proposal for direct talks because there’s absolutely no indication Bibi is serious about negotiating & Abbas will likely get nothing for his troubles. So go ahead & call me a wild eyed Palestinian terrorist if you wish (others do), but I’m as dubious as Hamas about the fate of this round of talks.
We can talk all we want about changing leadership, but until Israel allows democratic elections in which it doesn’t interfere then democracy can’t develop fully. Let’s have free & fair elections & let them figure out who should rule. If the Palestinians are enabled to pursue democracy they will come up with the right political movement & principles to govern them. We may not like it or agree w. it, but this will be a damn sight better than the miasma we have now.
Richard, have you got any reputable source that supports the claim that a “partial” Right of Return would be acceptable to the Palestinians? I haven’t seen or heard a single statement from any Palestinian leader that they accept any limits whatsoever on the right of return. By which, they don’t just mean the right to move into Israel, they mean they get back the actual land that their ancestors lived on, kicking out the Israelis that live and work there now. Imagine if the Native Americans started a terrorism campaign and demanded that everybody get out of Manhattan before they would make peace. Think the U.S. would give in?
Because you haven’t been reading this blog & following the post I wrote (if I recall correctly) about the NY Times article on precisely this subject. That article found precisely the opposite of what you claim. Ergo, that while Palestinians value the Right of Return as an inviolable right, that a significant percentage might, if framed properly, accept a negotiation of the meaning of the Right of REturn. The fact that you haven’t heard of this or read this only tells me that you haven’t been reading the right publications or deeply enough.
Regarding Native Americans, if we took their land in a war 40 yrs ago or so & they started a terror campaign to get it back then yes, the U.S. would negotiate to resolve such a dispute. 2010 is not 1877. Today, you cannot at least here in the U.S. exterminate a native people & steal their land & not pay a price. In 1877 it was diff. Somehow the U.S. got away w. murder. Not today.
“they don’t just mean the right to move into Israel, they mean they get back the actual land that their ancestors lived on, kicking out the Israelis that live and work there now.”
If you haven’t moved beyond that bit of nonsense, which was unarguably moot by the 1980’s, then you need to go away for a while to allow yourself to get caught up with reality, and then come back and join the discussion.
PS Bob, just so you know, the right of return has NEVER meant what you claim it does. In fact, a significant element of the Right of Return is the right to compensation for lands and other properties taken from Palestinians against their will in lieu of the return of the lands and properties themselves.
Why don’t you acquaint yourself with a few facts before being so enthusiastic about making such a complete fool of yourself?
Hi again Mary,
Thanks for your comments. I would reply in this manner.
I think the idea here should be to keep your eyes on the prize and not settle for second or third best.
Another analogy; I seem to have a weakness for them at the moment.
Let’s say your computer breaks down. It can happen sometimes. Lots of smoke coming from its innards and sparks flying everywhere. What do you do? Do you flee the building and watch as your house burns to the ground? Or do you press the off switch, pull the plug, shut down the power? Either option will ensure your safety but which one would you prefer? Most people would make the second choice and only consider the first when matters start to get really out of hand.
How do you turn off a war? Where do you find its on/off button, the kill switch, the power controller?
Don’t know? Maybe there just isn’t one. Certainly it’s never been the most prominent design feature in such undertakings. In which case, it may be up to the rest of us to fashion such a requirement – and sooner rather than later. Otherwise, everything continues to burn down around our ears and all for the want of one relatively simple, very basic extra, something that should have been installed long, long ago.
So, the thing to do is to switch off the conflict first. After that, any remaining questions can be addressed much more productively.
Behold, one purpose-built ‘OFF’ swich, good for most wars and other similar emergencies –
http://yorketowers.blogspot.com
I am still waiting for the next generation that stops complaining and actually do something to achieve peace. I haven’t seen strong leaders on either side that has the courage to say, enough is enough.
Same old rhetoric, who did first to whom and when.
If you can’t agree on anything, how can you expect millions of jews and arabs to agree and to progress? Millions of views compared to what, 10.
Who’s the person to guide to the exit?
The occupation is the culprit, it is not a two-sided dispute. I already said that. The west, particularly the US, is the oppressive power keeping the Arab world economically dependent as it supports dictatorship regimes. Do you know nothing of history? The last thing they need is more western “help.” The Arab people know this; hence the resentment against the US and Israel for perpetuating this occupation.
End the occupation, and end the hegemony, that is the answer to the “middle east crisis.”
People make mistakes. We are not perfect beings. If we were, conflicts like this one in the Middle East would be nipped in the bud every time and all the anger, fear and resentment they cause need never arise. Indeed, no conflicts of any description could take place. And yet, somehow, I find the prospect of that almost equally dispiriting, even unwelcome to some extent. Perhaps only the sometimes very perverse nature of man can account for such a degree of hubris.
But, although we might wish them otherwise, things are as they are; no amount of debate or reasoned argument can change that, not in the short term anyway. But is our constant search for an exit from this apparently insoluble crisis no more than a desire to escape its implications, that it should confirm our worst suspicions, showing us how imperfect we really are and, by its continued existence, exposing the futility of all our efforts to close it down?
Since perfection is unlikely to come our way anytime soon, maybe the intimate knowledge of our own imperfections could serve well enough in its stead. We know ourselves; we know our fellowman. What else is there that we need to know? The sum of that knowledge may be more than sufficient for the task that faces us.
http://yorketowers.blogspot.com
I dont think its that simple. Hamas and other political movements have different views considering where to draw the border line. I suggest you watch dohadebates which is debate forum for arab audience where they can adress questions to debating teams.
Doha Debates Special Event: Hamas meets Fatah.
“Do you have confidence in the current Palestinian leaders?”
MOTION REJECTED by 11% to 89%
I don’t share your optimism that when israel unilaterly withdraws to 1967 borders the conflict will magicly go away.
You not characterizing my views accurately. I never said the conflict would magically go away. In fact, I’ve said almost the opposite. There will still be provocateurs on both sides who will stir up trouble, engage in violence, perhaps terror. But there will be strong guarantees & an international military presence separating & protecting both sides fr. the other. THAT is what will guarantee the peace. Not good will fr. one side or the other.
Pls. characterized my views carefully & precisely in future. If you don’t know my views don’t make ’em up as you have here.
Richard I responded to Mary’s comment. Which apparently was directed to John Yorke.
So I have no disagreement about what should be done.
Objective,
I think I have now replied to Mary, sort of, but my timing may have been a bit out.
Just one more imperfect human being, I guess
“Do you know nothing of history?”
I didn’t know we were discussing US foreign politics in the Arab Gulf concerning dictatorships.
What I am advocating is new leadership that will take action for peace from both sides.
When Israel pulled out of gaza unilaterly things could of lead something better, perhaps to a road of peace if leaders from Both Sides would of made right decisions at that time.
Well, the first decision that went off the rails was a unilateral withdrawal by Sharon in which nothing was coordinated or agreed by the Palestinians. In which there was no timetable for further compromises or withdrawals. The Gaza withdrawal was a disaster fr. the get-go for which I blame Sharon primarily & Hamas secondarily.
Yes the unilateral pull-out was not coordinated properly. I agree with you.
Maybe it was a goodwill gesture for which Hamas in the end claimed victory.
Have you seen the “Doha Debates Special Event: Hamas meets Fatah”?
Arabs students telling Hamas and Fatah to change their leadership, they totally ignore.
“No senior leaders of Hamas talk about 1948 borders.”
Richard I advise you to watch the dohadebate clip that I previously mentioned.
Osama Hamdan a senior member of Hamas (video time 34 min.) starts arguing that Fatah failed the people by not fighting for jaffo and other cities which will be in the future peace process located on the israeli side. Which you also advocate. This by the way would mean that Hamdan advocates one state resolution.
Second senior Hamas leader Mohammad Nazzal wants to go back to 1948 borders.
These are not “senior” leaders of Hamas. I never heard of them. Senior leaders of Hamas are Khaled, Haniya. I said “senior” & I meant it. The actual leaders who set policy. You know who they are. Don’t give me bupkis & tell me it’s gold.
I am sorry Richard but meshal and haniyeh are not the only two people in the administration. According to Qatar foundation these are senior leaders of Hamas. I take their word. There have been presidents and high ranking members visiting their forum so I think they know how to label their guests properly.
(Quote) Mohammad Nazzal is a senior Hamas leader in Damascus and spokesperson for the Political Bureau.
Hamas administration is divided in where to draw the borderline. Al Zahar clearly senior leader of Hamas is not giving us the answer aswell. You can see his interview also in the Doha Debates. He is dodging every question.
I don’t care who says what about them. I’ve never heard of them and I’ve heard of a lot of senior Hamas leaders. Besides, you’re not linking to any site but merely expecting us to take you at yr workd which is a fatal mistake sometimes. Further, whatever Nazzal says, his boss, Meshal says something completely diff. So I’ll take the boss’ word over the subordinate any day.