This post is gonna give you a kick, to read the “quality” journalism practiced by Tablet, a project sponsored by NextBook and underwritten, according to a little Jewish birdie who’s a maven about Jewish foundations, by the Avi Chai Foundation. The latter is a major funder of Birthright Israel. Besides board member “Big Mameh neocon” Ruth Wisse, the foundation shares two major board members with the Tikvah Fund: Arthur Fried (Avi Chai’s board chair) and Mem Bernstein. Tikvah, along with Shelly Adelson, funds the Likudist Shalem Center (think-tank home of Michael Oren and Natan Sharansky), Jewish Ideas Daily, an enterprise my little Jewish birdie calls a “neocon shtick dreck,” and Jewish Review of Books, a right-wing rip off of the New York Review of Books. On Tikvah’s board sits none other than…William Kristol.
The Avi Chai Foundation claims as its spiritual godfather, Rav Avraham Kook, also the spiritual godfather of the Greater Israel movement. The philanthropy notes in its guidelines:
Support will only be given to programs or institutions which express a positive attitude towards the State of Israel
The slash-and-burn Tablet article is written by Lee Smith who’s written the distinguished Islamophobic title, The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations. He’s the “Middle East correspondent” of, you guessed it, Bill Kristol’s Weekly Standard. How’s that for keepin’ it all in the family?
Smith really has his journalistic chops down. Instead of proving his tawdry claim that these Israel-critical bloggers are anti-Israel “agents of influence,” he quotes from their comment threads(!). Talk about guilt by association. Smith, of course, neglects the fact that the Talkbacks of the Israeli online news media are among the most vicious, disgusting, racist and genocidal I’ve ever come across. Does this mean that we should accuse Haaretz, Ynet and Maariv of favoring the views of their readers? If so, where does it end? Should we bring Amos Schocken, Amnon Denker and all the editors of these publications up on charges of racism and incitement?
Smith even quotes neocon fellow-traveler Jeffrey Goldberg–not criticizing substantively anything written by the above-charged suspects; rather the latter notes the noxious e-mails he claims (without providing any proof) he receives from their readers whenever they write attacking his views. Goldberg also delivers a patently offensive and unsupported claims that Stephen Walt’s is a “Jew-baiting blog.” Yes, this is what passes for journalism at Tablet.
The only proof offered by Smith that Walt’s blog is Israel-obsessed is a supposed factoid that two non-Israel-related posts generated 13 and 58 comments and an Israel-related one generated 350. And then this rather remarkable little diatribe:
These numbers suggest that the purpose of Walt’s blog is to act as a magnet for the animus of a readership hostile not only to Israel but also to American figures friendly to Israel, especially American Jews.
Actually these numbers don’t ‘suggest’ anything of the sort. They suggest that the subject of Israel is hotly debated online and that there are many readers with strong opinions about it, both right and left.
Not a word from any of the accused of course. Not even a claim from the author that he attempted to contact them and they refused to cooperate (something that would’ve been wise it appears if Smith had bothered to ask). We’ve all heard of “smash mouth” journalism. This is smash-mouth Jewish journalism. The Avi Chai Foundation should be proud.
To return to the beginning of this post, I’m pissed. Why couldn’t I be included as an anti-Israel “agent of influence?” Why do Weiss, Walt, Greenwald, etc. get all the fun? I even wrote a semi-facetious e mail to Tablet’s editor offering to write anything they wished that might get me included in any future smear job Smith or any of their other writers might wish to write. What does a guy gotta do to get any respect from the neocon Jewish tabloid press around here?
For many years, I’ve touted my virtual Jewish club, the Spinoza Society, a home for Jews whose views are before their time; Jews who espouse ideas considered so outrageous that they’re ostracized by their fellow Jews, who are too callow and too herd-driven to consider the truth that lies within them. I welcome all of the smeared as honorary members of my club.
Smith also left out some superb Jewish bloggers who deserve his consideration as fonts of ‘anti-Israel hate’ (please note the irony intended by the quotation marks): there’s Larry Derfner at the Jerusalem Post, Brad Burston at Haaretz, Jerry Haber at Magnes Zionist, Paul Woodward at War in Context, Helena Cobban at Just World News, and Matt Duss at Think Progress among others (and sorry if I’ve left you out and you want to be included among the chosen few). Why do they get short shrift? I guess there’s so much anti-Israel blogging going on and so little column inches to expose it. Maybe if Avi Chair coughs up another couple a hundred thou Tablet could create a new column, ‘Israel Hater of the Week’ or something along those lines. It’s a thought.
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Richard, by amazing coincidence, I just emailed you a copy of Walt’s blog asking you the same thing you ask: “Why not me (you)?”
BTW, can you inform me of your Spinoza club? He is one of my preferred philosophers, for obvious reasons. How does one join?
I’ll make you an honorary member!
For my take, Richard, see
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2010/07/company-i-keep.html
where I mentioned the characterisation of you as a “self-hating Jew”. Hey, I don’t forget my buddies.
For Steve Walt’s response, see
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/07/21/the_problem_with_judging_a_blog_by_its_commenters
He’s such a mentsh that he interrupted a family vacation to answer the low blow.
As for the Tikvah foundation, I wrote my take on them here
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2009/05/how-ideological-funding-is-harming.html
and I haven’t changed my mind. In fact, this sort of funding is a blight on the Academy. And Tikvah boasts a narrow range of ideology on Israel, from old-time Israel supporter Michael Walzer to the right.
But Tablet does have a token article every once in a while, like the one by Daniel Luban (actually, that’s the only one I can think of) which speaks in a different voice. Luban and Jim Lobe have also been smeared.
Maybe you should change the wording in your ABOUT section.
“Pro-Israel: a note about the term ‘pro-Israel’ as used in this blog. I consider myself pro-Israel.”
Maybe you should just say what you really mean or how you really want to be viewed.
I’ve written about this here about 30-40 times (maybe not that many but it just seems that many). So I don’t really want to say it again. I think it’s pretty obvious why & how I view myself as pro-Israel.
I totally agree – you were slighted! Not ok!
Never mind, they’ll catch you in the next volley. They’re scared, we can expect a heated season.
Yes i am scared, i am scared because of recent history.
i am scared because when the Iranian president calls for the annihilation of the state of Israel, from the podium in the UN, and is being applaud, when people are promoting a De-legitimizing campaign against the right of the Jews to have their own state, history tells us that bad things happen.
zvi,
Don’t you think it would be better for Israel to be more concern in the manner in which she is NOW treating the Palestinian people than the contents of Ahmadinejhad’s speech?
On July 12 the ICC issued another arrest warrant (the second) against the president of Sudan Mr. Omar al-Bashir. Allegations include: Genocide, War Crimes, rape etc.
This is what the Mr. Ismail Haniyeh said about the issue on july 14:
“While the international community is not speaking against the true crimes and terror directed at the people of Gaza, These unsubstantiated allegations are directed toward the Sudanic president Omar al-Bashir”
(http://www.maannews.net))
And these are the people you are identifying yourself with? What am I missing?
also a bit off topic but did you know that women in gaza were banned from smoking nargila ?
(http://www.maannews.net)
I’m rapidly tiring of yr grandstanding. THe point of my comment threads is neither to score pts against Israel or Hamas. If that’s what you need to do you need to do it elsewhere. If you think that you’re going to be the conduit for anti-Palestinian media material for this blog you’re mistaken just as I wouldn’t allow anyone to do the same against Israel. So decide what you want. If you want to engage in debate honestly & support yr claims (which you still haven’t done btw), you are welcome. If not, I will rapidly tire of you.
Frankly, I don’t care what Ismail Haniye says about Sudan. He’s in no position to know what’s going on there & in no position to have any impact on events there one way or another. I’m interested in this blog in dealing w. the Israeli-Arab conflict as surprising as that may seem to you. And again if you need to score pts against Ismail Haniye you’ll have to do that elsewhere.
As far as nargila, you once again have it wrong. The Hamas moral police have pronounced an edict which many oppose & which may or may not be enforced or revoked depending on the vagaries of political developments there. BTW, providing a link to Maan’s main pg. when you’re referring to a specific Maan story is useless. Next time offer the link to the specific story to which you refer.
I never said I “identify” with Hamas & you once again are distorting my true views.
“And these are the people you are identifying yourself with? What am I missing?”
zvi,
The truth is I identify myself with the suffering from both sides of the divide. It must end and all non violent attempts must be made to see that that becomes a reality. We owe it to ourselves and to the future generation living there.
And I say this not just as a Muslim but as a human being who sees that all life is precious which I am very sure you can equally relate to.
I identify with the Palestinian people, and they have elected Hamas to represent them. I support their choices. Not only that, but I have seen Hamas clean up their act considerably, but on the other hand, the Israeli government seems to be steadily deteriorating.
Maget
i agree 100% with your statement above. and i think that the first thing we should do in order to solve that conflict is to recognize each other suffering.
we need to recognize each other liability to the situation, we need to recognize the other right for safe existence, as individuals and ethnic groups.
look around, how many people here on this blog recognize the right of the Jews for a safe existence as an ethnic group in the state of Israel ? not to many.
while the blog owner has a legitimate criticism of the state of Israel, most other writers on this blog challenge that fact.
honestly ? i don’t think that by de-legitimizing the rights of any of the sides anything will be achieved other than more blood.
Zvi and Megat,
Couldn’t agree more that we need to recognize the suffering of all sides. When Jewish people suffered I recognized and sympathized with them. But while I recognize past suffering, I am more concerned with those who are suffering today. And in my opinion they are Palestinians. And not because of Hamas or Fatah, but because Palestinians are an occupied people who have for decades been denied their human rights. Nobody is stealing land or anything else from Israel. Nobody is arresting and imprisoning Israelis without cause. Nobody is confining Israelis into bantustans or denying them the right to education, medical treatment, food, employment. If and when I see Israelis being abused as the Palestinians are being abused then I promise I shall speak out just as strongly on their behalf.
Mary
reading your posts i learned that you are opposing the idea of a Jewish state. i suspect you reject that idea even if the Jewish state would be within the 1967 border.
to me this is part of the problem, the minute there will be no recognition of one of the sides right to safe existence there will be no peace. you are part of the problem not part of the solution. and as i stated in another thread anyone who resist the idea of a Jewish state, and do not equally resist the idea of a Muslim state (and there are 22 Muslim states that practice different types of sharia law) is a racist. a form of racism directed only towards the Jews is well known as antisemitism.
Palestine will not be a Muslim state, even if Hamas runs it which is by no means guaranteed. Fatah is a secular movement. And there are many Christian Palestinians. There may even be some Jewish Palestinians when the state is finally declared.
To advocate the transformation of Israel as a Jewish supremacist state into a state that respects all its religions & ethnicities (including Judaism) is NOT racist & not anti Semitic. I do not appreciate slinging such mud so pls don’t do so.
Richard says, a few comments downstream: To advocate the transformation of Israel as a Jewish supremacist state into a state that respects all its religions & ethnicities (including Judaism) is NOT racist & not anti Semitic.
This. Again and again, this. The fact that Jewish supremacism is not the same as Judaism (there is overlap, but it is not the majority of Judaism (even if it is, indeed, the majority of Judaism as practiced in Israel at this time)) and that it is perfectly possible to live alongside Jews and to disagree with Jews – without being anti-Semitic.
And that truth holds unless and until the person who thinks otherwise changes the meaning of “anti-Semitic” or has a view of Judaism so terribly narrow as to be anti-Semitic in its own right.
“here are 22 Muslim states that practice different types of sharia law”
Really? OK, if you know this as a fact, then you must be able to name the “Muslim states” that practice some type of sharia (sic) law. And for bonus points tell us which type of sharia (sic) law each of them practices.
PS Every human being has a right to a safe existence. No human beings, including Jewish human beings, have a right to deny a safe existence to other human beings based on a claim that they are ensuring the safe existence of Jews, a claim which is highly questionable in the case of Israel.
Oh dear, here we go again. While I am not a fan of Ahmadinejad I insist it has never been proved he ever made such a statement. In fact he has consistently denied the accusation, and honest translators have confirmed that is not what he said. My understanding is that he suggests the “regime that is occupying Jerusalem” should be removed, and I agree with that. I too do not accept the concept of a Jewish state, and I would very much like to see an end to it. This by no means should be construed to imply I would like to see the end of any person in Israel. The truth is nobody anywhere can say anything at all critical of Israel’s policies without being accused of wanting to wipe Israel off the map or drive the people into the sea or similar rhetoric.
I have never seen evidence that Iran has ever threatened to attack Israel, but only to defend itself if attacked by Israel.
Mary,
i appreciate your honesty.
so to translate what you stated using my own words, you do not believe in the right of the state of Israel to exist as a Jewish democratic state.
i have two questions on the matter:
1. why not ?
2. why aren’t you opposing to the right any of the Arab countries to exist as Arab state (with prevailing sharia law), and if you do how active are you about achieving that goal ?
You’re truly disingenuous. The only Arab country practicing Shariah law is Saudi Arabia. Stop making silly arguments that have nothing to do with anything.
I believe that Israel, in its present form, has no right to exist (as an oppressive occupier of the Palestinian people, a racist state practicing Jewish supremacy). The idea of a Jewish state was misbegotten and a mistake. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians, and it should, and can, be a multicultural, secular state for Jews, Christians and Muslims, and for Arabs and non-Arabs.
Fair enough Mary.
Will you be first in line to defend the Jewish residents of the new secular state when the muslims begin to implement their plan to push the Jews into the sea?
Israel exists as a Jewish state out of necessity, not becuase it is misbeggotten or a mistake.
The only thing here that has been misbeggotten is your sense of true histroy, which a majority of us Jews would prefer not to repeat.
Thanks
This is a theme circa 1967 & you still try to flog the long dead horse. When has any serious Palestinian figure ever said this recently? None has. So let’s cut out the red herrings.
Enough of the hasbara, please. No one, least of all “muslims,” is going to push the Jews into the sea. This is getting really boring and tedious.
I will defend the Palestinians against any continued racism directed at them by anyone, including Jews. I hope I am making myself clear.
Israel does not exist out of necessity; that is a zionist myth, and the holocaust card is played as a way to hammer the myth into reality. And zionism is a misbegotten ideology far pre-dating the holocaust and which has exploited the holocaust shamefully.
Oh, Mary. How I agree with everything you say. Keep on slugging.
@Mary, since you omit the reply button, I am responding to you here to keep it in context.
Ok…For the sake of discussion lets put the holocaust aside. After all…the destruction of 6 million people for the sole reason that they were Jewish, is merely a “card” meant to justify a “myth”.
So where should we begin? How about The soviet Union, even prior to the war? Where Jews could not practice their religion freely and were not permitted to work certain profession unless they renounced their Judiasim. All jewish youth groups and organizations were forcibly disbannded and all synagogues shut down.
Maybe Tzarist Russia where Jews were restricted to live where they wanted, were not allowed to own land, and were limited as to what professions and work they could perform. Then of course there were the bands of rampaging cossacks and the pogroms, not to mention the publication of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
In other parts of Europe, such as the papal states, the jews were”strongly” urged to convert, often times under punishment of banishment or death. There was involuntary baptisms and lets not forget the monkey trial and conviction of Alfred Dreyfus, who was put on trial for treason against France, merely because he was Jewish.
Wnat to go back further? How about the Spanish inquisition? How about jews being burnt alive in the town of Strassborg for being responsible for the black plague?
THe Jews were banished from Spain, England, Portugal, Austria, France and other places….for being jews and because they did not have a country of their own.
All this leads up to that “card” you call the holocaust, which is certainly no justification for a state. Plus We didn’t even talk the muslim countries.
So don’t come and tell me a Jewish homeland is not a necessity. Your sense of histroy does not extend back past 1970 and even that is revisionist at best.
This is the infamous “lachrymous theory” of Jewish history derided so memorably by no less a distinguished historian than Salo Baron. Even the devil can quote Scripture & Jewish history as you have proven. Jewish suffering does not entitle today’s Israeli Jews to oppress Palestinians or even to deprive fellow Palestinian Israeli citizens of their own democratic rights.
Jews live all over the world. They are not being driven out of anywhere. Give me a break from this zionist progaganda, please.
On the other hand, I see you have no problem with driving 700,000 Palestinians out of their homeland and occupying their lands, gradually stealing it and dispossessing them in a rampage of ethnic cleansing.
You twist my words, in any case. I’m no holocaust denier. I’m saying that number one, not only Jews were killed in the holocaust; half of the people who died at the hands of the Nazis were non-Jews.
The holocaust does not entitle you to steal another people’s land, that is what I’m saying. I’m sick and tired of zionists exploiting the holocaust as a way to gain sympathy for themselves at the expense of those who died, especially when they pursue a very secular agenda of conquest and ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people. Who do you think you are? What gives you the right to steal land and water, kill children and old people, destroy villages and demolish homes? Really? And what gives you the right, when the Palestinian people engage in resistance (which they have every right to do), to call them terrorists?
Your hasbara doesn’t work on me. Sorry. And by the way, I did not “omit the reply button” – I do not run Richard’s blog.
Greg:
(and yes, it is a problem trying to reply to a specific post when the reply button isn’t there)
Firstly I am sick and tired of seeing repeated here the claim that Muslims or anybody else plan to push Jews into the sea. I have seen nothing to indicate that this phrase was coined by David Ben Gurion.
There can be no question that Jews have suffered throughout history, as have many other groups. The holocaust which took the lives of millions of people based on religion, culture, political identification, sexual preference, mental or physical defects was an abomination that can never be justified. Thank the Lord (sorry, that’s a Christian phrase) that Jews are no longer persecuted and as a result can no longer portray themselves as eternal victims. Nobody is saying the holocaust should be forgotten, though it does seem that most non-Jewish victims seem to have moved on without exploiting their suffering as many Jewish second and third generation survivors seem to want to do.
It is understandable that at the end of World War II there was a desire for a homeland where Jews could feel safe, and I was one of those who thought the idea of “a land without a people for a people without a land” was a great idea. Later I learned that Palestine was anything but a land without a people.
Jews are not the only major group to have suffered persecution. African Americans (called by other names) continued to be victimized long after the end of the Nazi holocaust. They never asked to have their own country, even though in many ways integration is still a work in progress here.
It’s convenient to continue quoting and misquoting statements intended to manipulate the media and propagating the idea that Israel is a tiny defenseless peace-loving state surrounded by enemies whose only goal is to drive all the Jews into the sea. Unfortunately for Israel, after the recent bloodbaths in Lebanon and Gaza, and now the violent attack on unarmed passengers on board the MAVI MARMARA, Israel is increasingly being seen for what it has become.
Greg: Ooops. Of course I meant to say the phrase about driving Jews into the sea WAS coined by Ben Gurion.
“So don’t come and tell me a Jewish homeland is not a necessity.”
But surely not at the expense of displacing the Palestinians?
Interestingly, when Jews were expelled from Spain, some of the countries they left for were to Muslim countries:
“……. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi (“Spanish”) Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.
taken from Uri Avnery’s Column
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1159094813/
@ the two Marys
Sorry ladies. Can’t agree.
If the history of the jewish people through time is going to be reduced to mere propoganda in your eyes then you are as naive as anyone I have ever met on the subject. You have drunk the black, green and red kool-aid and have become completely blinded to historical facts.
The real facts are a google search away. You can look up the history of jewish persecution for yourself.
The irony here is that while you think the Israeli’s are crying victim you fail to recognize the new Jew in the world. The one that says “I will no longer be a victim!, I will no longer be lead away like a lamb to the slaughter!” I will stand up and fight for what is mine and for my right to exist!” Just because the Israelis are not rolling over like the shtetl jews of old is putting a major piece of crap in the porridge pot.
Oh, this is ridiculous. You’re just shouting far right Israeli nationalist slogans courtesy of the JDL. Now you’ve clearly identified yr own ideological allegiances & you simply cannnot be taken seriously.
Greg,
How do you tie your position with the manner in which Israel treats the Palestinians? Are they not now the victims?
And I do not believe that the two Marys have ever described what has happened to the Jews in the past as propaganda but that they were not the sole victims to persecution by others.
Megat
The Palestinians are certainly victims, however, I see them being more victims of their own leadership’s desire to portray them as such. Case in point, is the way they have squandered billions in foriegn aid. I truely believe that if a mainstream representative of the Palestinian body emerges to assume the leadership and assumes responsibility for the growth and well being of the population, the problem can be solved overnight. Enough about that.
Relative to the Mary’s, please review the posts above, specifically that of “Mary” who, in response to my post about jewish persecution outside of the Holocaust, states “Give me a break from this zionist progaganda, please.” That is exhibit A. There are more.
Relative to your statements, you are correct, Jews did migrate to other muslim states, upon being expelled, however, in many cases they were subject to harsh conditions and second class status and in many cases the time they spent in these new lands were dependant only on the generosity of the current leader, When he went out many times the tolerance for the Jews went with him. Hence the term, “Wondering Jews”. Case in point, what are the jewish populations of these muslim countries today?
100% hasbara. Brought to you by the Institute of Israeli Hasbara Advocacy.
Translation: If a Palestinian quisling leadership will roll over & play dead on behalf of Israeli interests a deal can be done w. a snap of the fingers.
You don’t know yr history. The reasons there are few Jews in Muslim countries today are varied having to do w. native conditions in these countries & Israeli emissaries who “persuaded” them to leave sometimes by bombings & other times by persuasion.
Greg, I don’t think any of us has ever claimed that persecution of or crimes against Jews, including the holocaust, are propaganda. You seem to be twisting our words by making an inference that is not there. What is propaganda is the way many zionists continue to bring up the holocaust and anti-semitism whenever there is legitimate criticism of Israel’s policies. Honestly we know there was a holocaust, and we know it was a tragedy of enormous proportions for all of its victims, Jews and non-Jews alike. I am ashamed that any human can do such things to another human.
But what happened to people more than a half-century ago it is no excuse for what Israel is doing today to the Palestinians. It is ridiculous to defend Israel’s every crime by claiming Jews used to be persecuted and are afraid it might happen again if Israel doesn’t maintain a constant state of war against not only its neighbors but against its own citizens who aren’t Jewish. We all have been victims. As a Christian and a Roman Catholic and a citizen of Great Britain I could say my ancestors have been victims and victimizers. Hey, if I wanted to I could even say I am a survivor of Hitler too because my neighbor’s house was bombed in the war while mine escaped. But this is the 21st century and I have no interest in re-fighting old wars or whining about old grievances.
We should all honor the memory of the victims of Hitler and other mass murderers. But not every Jew is a holocaust survivor. And “Never Again” means never again for any people. Including the people of Palestine.
You’re really have no idea what you talking about.
in short, Sharia is simply the path a Muslim follows. each country has it own version based on the controlling sect of islam. it may be Wahhabi, Sunni, Salafi, Shia or other. in all arab countries the prevailing law is the law of Islam. from Iran to Indonesia, From Syria to Egypt.
What is Sharia?
Also meaning “path” in Arabic, sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna–the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. Precedents and analogy applied by Muslim scholars are used to address new issues. The consensus of the Muslim community also plays a role in defining this theological manual.
Sharia developed several hundred years after the Prophet Mohammed’s death in 632 CE as the Islamic empire expanded to the edge of North Africa in the West and to China in the East. Since the Prophet Mohammed was considered the most pious of all believers, his life and ways became a model for all other Muslims and were collected by scholars into what is known as the hadith. As each locality tried to reconcile local customs and Islam, hadith literature grew and developed into distinct schools of Islamic thought: the Sunni schools, Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanafi; and the Shiite school, Ja’fari. Named after the scholars that inspired them, they differ in the weight each applies to the sources from which sharia is derived, the Quran, hadith, Islamic scholars, and consensus of the community. The Hanbali school, known for following the most Orthodox form of Islam, is embraced in Saudi Arabia and by the Taliban. The Hanafi school, known for being the most liberal and the most focused on reason and analogy, is dominant among Sunnis in Central Asia, Egypt, Pakistan, India, China, Turkey, the Balkans, and the Caucasus. The Maliki school is dominant in North Africa and the Shafi’i school in Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei Darussalam, and Yemen. Shia Muslims follow the Ja’fari school, most notably in Shia-dominant Iran. The distinctions have more impact on the legal systems in each country, however, than on individual Muslims, as many do not adhere to one school in their personal lives.
Waiting for Shirin to dismiss this utter nonsense w the proper swat of the hand. You haven’t a clue about Arab countries, Sharia or Islam. And everything you write in yr first paragraphs is false. So pls. don’t bother giving us any lessons on Islam as there are actually Muslim readers of this blog who not only don’t need such lessons, but find them offensive coming fr. you.
Mary Hughes-Thompson
Thanks for the lesson on the Holocaust.
By the way…isn’t it interesting that if you read through this thread, I am the one taking the Holocaust out of the equation, yet you and your other friend Mary keep bringing it up. This being said lets continue the discussion. You state
“What is propaganda is the way many zionists continue to bring up the holocaust and anti-semitism whenever there is legitimate criticism of Israel’s policies.”
The fact is, the illegitimate criticism of Israel, outweighs the legitimate 100-1. The illegitimate criticism is so rampant it drowns out any legitimate criticism you may have. Take this blog, for instance, everytime Richard writes a piece (usually critical of Israel and her policies) the responses come back ten-fold in criticism and one hundred fold more venomous. The fact is, no nation in the world has suffered the perpetual hatred, throughout time like the Jews have. That perpetual hatred is alive and well today and it is called anti-Semitism.
Go back to the middle ages, the blood libels, anti-semitism. The “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, anti-Semitism. Today, the criticism against Israel is all, one way or another based in anti-Semitism. Sugar coat it all you like.
You know that the roots of Zionism extend so far back, that unless you discredit Zionism you can not erase the Jewish claim to the land. Did you know that BoneyM , the 1970’s disco group played a concert in Ramallah this week? Did you know that the concert organizers asked them NOT to play their most famous hit? Do you know why? That song is called “By the Rivers of Babylon” and it is adapted from the ancient Jewish psalm of those who swore never to forget the land in which they were born and to which they will return. AND THAT, cannot be sung at a concert in Gaza because THAT discredits the propaganda by which you have been brainwashed.
I’m not putting words in your mouth. I don’t need to twist what you are saying. You think you sound intellectual, sophisticated and philanthropic, but it is completely transparent. You are either extremely hateful or extremely naïve. You believe that if Israel gives up enough land, or enough concessions, then the Jihad will be turned off like a tap.
Pull out of Southern Lebanon. Oh now pull out of the Shaba farms….1000 sq ft of nothing that was taken from Syria by in 1967.
Pull out of the Golan Heights…..why? 1/12 of 1% of the entire land mass of Syria is so crucial to their survival? Please. And before you give me the sob story about the Druze there, I don’t buy it. They are covering their asses in case the territory is returned.
Pull out of Gaza. We did. Hamas destroyed state of the art housing and agricultural facilities that could have been the corner stone in sustaining their population and instead kept up the attacks.
Get a clue.
Nonsense. This has no foundation in fact. And yr claims about the comment threads are also groundless.
Let’s knock off the discussion of the history of anti-Semitism & Jewish history. That’s not the main theme of this blog & it is off topic.
If you want to make any claims about BoneyM or anything else you will provide a credible source. If not, you will not make such claims.
It is not for you to say what is or should be important to the State of Syria. It is a sovereign state which can decide for itself what is important. The truth is that the Golan was conquered & taken fr. SYria & a peace agreement will require Israel to cede both the Golan & Shabaa to Syria (or in the case of Shabaa to Lebanon possibly).
No one is telling Israeli to “pull out” of Gaza. They’re telling Israel to stop the siege & allow Gaza to resume a normal existence.
@ Richard, down wait for shirin let me elaborate:
Generally speaking Muslim countries can be divided to 3 categories:
Dual Legal System – government is secular but Muslims can choose to bring familial and financial disputes to sharia courts. The exact jurisdiction of these courts varies from country to country, but usually includes marriage, divorce, inheritance, and guardianship
Government under God – Islam is the official religion listed in the constitution, sharia is declared to be a source, or the source, of the laws. Examples: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates, where the governments derive their legitimacy from Islam. In Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam.
Completely Secular – Muslim countries where the government is declared to be secular in the constitution include Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Chad, Somalia, and Senegal. Islamist parties run for office occasionally in these countries and sharia often influences local customs
In any case of a dispute between sharia law and other, Sharia prevails.
I’ve already warned you to stop giving tutorials about Islam since you clearly know nothing substantively about it. I am not interested in hearing more fr. you on this subject.
Yr future comments will be moderated to ensure you remain on topic & follow the comment rules.
WHERE IS THE MONEY THAT THE WORLD GAVE THE PALESTINIANS?
This is so far off topic you can’t find your way back without a map. THat’s the last we’re going to hear on this subject. And you’ll be moderated to ensure that this is the case.
“Israel is increasingly being seen for what it has become.”
Mary, I submit that Israel has not become anything that it has not been from the very beginning, but is now simply more brazenly open in displaying what it has always been. In fact, what we are seeing now is the inevitable result of Zionism, which from its inception recognized and rationalized the necessity of denying the rights, and in fact the very existence, of the indigenous non-Jewish inhabitants of the land designated as Herzl’s Judenstadt.
“Sharia is simply the path a Muslim follows.”
Ummmm – wrong. Sharia (sic) is something quite different from that. The “path a Muslim follows” is not even remotely the same thing as ساروخ. I will leave it to you to define what either one actually is since you represent yourself as the expert here.
“…the prevailing law is the law of Islam. from Iran to Indonesia, From Syria to Egypt.”
Gosh, Michel Aflaq, the Christian who founded the secular Socialist Ba`th party, would certainly be interested to hear that the prevailing law in his home country, which is ruled by the secular party he founded, is the law of Islam. In fact, the current rulers of his home country should be informed of this as well, don’t you think, since they believe they are running a secular state. How very interesting, too, that Secular Egypt is ruled by the law of Islam (however you define that).
Zvi: “What is Sharia? etc., copy/paste blahblahblah”
Nice job of googling and copy/pasting from the Council on Foreign Relations, Zvi! I would have thought an Islamic Studies PhD candidate could have said it as well or better in his own words, though.
Also meaning “path” in Arabic…”
Ooops! Whoever wrote that for the Council on Foreign Relations isn’t much of an expert in Arabic. Maybe he confused ساروخ with صبيل, which means “way”, not “path”, but is at least closer to “path” than ساروخ which has no relation to the word “path”, which is better translated as طريخ, right Zvi?
@ Shirin
so many words, so little time.
article 3 of the Syrian constitution states:
Article 3 [Islam]
(1) The religion of the President of the Republic has to be Islam.
(2) Islamic jurisprudence is a main source of legislation.
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sy00000_.html
so it doesn’t matter how you are going to try and twist it, islam prevails in all the countries surrounding us.
and my question still stands, why israel ?
why not everyone ?
Can you prove that Islamic jurisprudence is indeed the main source of legislation? Or is the constitution paying lip service to a vague ideal?
@ Shirin
since you are going to ask
this is article 2 of the Jordanian one:
Article 2 Islam is the religion of the State and Arabic is its official language.
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/constitution_jo.html
blah blah blah
all these states declare that they are part of the Arab world as part of their constitution. same goes to all those who’s government act under god
@ richard
Can you prove the law abiding Israeli-Arabs are actually being discriminated ?
everyone in Israel has freedom of religion, as long as they obey the different laws of the land.
as to the freedom of religion on the PA, please look at some picture of the “Joseph Grave” in nablus and what happened to it after the territory was given back to the PA.
This is so widely accepted & confirmed by so many credible sources I’m not going to go into the argument again as I’ve made it myself numerous times here. Instead of demanding we prove it to you do some research yrself & do a Google query on the subject & you’ll find more sources than you can possible cover or read in 10 yrs of study.
What kind of freedom of religion is there for Muslims when the State gets to reject their religious leaders (& does so), while it never rejects any Jewish religious leaders?
I personally know a settler leader who plans on remaining in his settlement when it is transferred to Palestinian sovereignty because he believes the PA will honor its commitments to the Jews who remain behind. I respect him because he’s living it on the ground while you’re nothing but an ill informed dilletante who doesn’t know what you’re talking about.
You have claimed to me in a private e mail that you are Middle East specialist, have a degree in Islamic studies & are studying for a PhD in the field. If you aren’t lying tell us where you studied Arabic and where you are studying for your PhD.
@ Richard,
i see you are getting upset.
kind of hard, facing the truth right ? this is the level of your debates ?
1. I never claimed i was a Mizrahi, i did say that my father was born in Israel in 1935 – the rest was your imagination, please publish the email – but i guess all truths on your blog are the creation of your imagination.
2. I studied Arabic as early as 4th grade. (Second language is mandatory in Israel)
3. Hebrew U for the first 2. (my name isn’t zvi lapkin don’t waste your time)
4. who is sponsoring you ? who is paying the bill for your propaganda ? is it the New Fund ?
5. what now you will never let me publish anything again because i am constantly proving you are wrong ? i would expect anything else from you, you have no integrity what so ever.
Why am I not surprised?
My clumsky mistake. I mistook Mizrahi and Mizrechan and have now corrected my comment about yr fraudulent claims.
By the way, you forget there are Arab speakers who read this blog. They’ve verified you know almost no Arabic and that indeed your level is approximately 4th grade or perhaps a bit higher. So there goes another fraud of yours.
Oh yes, the NIF funds me to the tune of tens of thousands every year. Would you like a copy of my bank statement or the cancelled checks to prove it? This appears to be the new mantra by the Israeli right affilated with Rotter & Fresh who’ve migrated here since I’ve begun published some of my scoops in their pages. They insinuate that I’m a “kept” blogger. In the past, these numbskulls have alleged I’m on the Saudi payroll. I guess the wingnuts must realize that the Saudis aren’t paying terribly well these days, so they’ve migrated to a new theme: that the New Israel Fund is paying the piper and calling the tune.
I’ve got news for all of you cretins, it doesn’t cost anything hardly to set up, maintain, and write a blog. I wish non profits would subsidize my work. But they don’t. And that’s all there is to your stupid “revelations” and charges.
And by the way, donations from upstanding readers are always welcome. I think this would be the best response to such nonsense.
“Israeli emissaries who “persuaded” them to leave sometimes by bombings & other times by persuasion.”
Said persuasion consisting largely of deception. One of the main reasons Iraqi emigration slowed to a tiny trickle shortly after the first, not-all-that-large wave after the government opened emigration for Jews in 1950 is that their friends and relatives who had emigrated began contacting them and telling them not to come. It seems that their treatment and the conditions under which they were forced to live were not even remotely as promised. Tragically, they could not return to their homes in Iraq because as a condition of their being allowed to emigrate to an enemy country, they were forced to renounce their citizenship. However understandable, that is a shame upon the Iraqi government, although it is not impossible to imagine that even that was instigated by the Zionist emissaries.
Oh yes, and let us not forget that the Zionists bribed members of the Iraqi government to allow the Jews to emigrate to Israel. Nuri Sa`id’s family were given the extremely lucrative contract to transport the Jews out of the country to Cypress, from which they were then flown to Israel. Later even that pretense was dropped and they were flying them directly from Baghdad to Israel without that stopover in Cypress.
“I studied Arabic as early as 4th grade. (Second language is mandatory in Israel) ”
You have proven that your knowledge of Arabic is exactly zero. I don’t believe you even studied it in the 4th grade, but it is certainty that you have no degree in Islamic Studies because you have no useful knowledge of Arabic. Your second language must be English because it is most definitely not Arabic.
“you have no integrity what so ever.”
Quite hilarious coming from someone who claims to have a degree in Islamic Studies, and to have studied Arabic since the 4th grade, and yet who has demonstrated that he has exactly zero knowledge of Arabic which is a fundamental requirement for Islamic Studies. Do tell us how you managed to obtain a degree in Islamic Studies without learning any Arabic at all.
@ Shirin
i am so sorry to disappoint you,
when i grew up, it was mandatory in Israel to learn 2 second languages, English was a mandatory option and then you were able to select either Arabic / French. i picked Arabic.
both you and Richard ignored every fact presented to you in this debate, upon when reaching a dead end, you simply directed your replies towards me and not towards the facts.
anyone with half a brain can see that.
While i am not surprised that Richard is behaving like that, i am very surprise that you are acting like that – as i thought that Arabs have a minimum sense of self respect.
as for my identity, the day other folks on this website will identify themselves by their fool name, i will do the same.
NOtice nothing further from him about his alleged degree in Islamic studies. No explanation why he couldn’t tell that deliberate & elementary Arabic errors were added to comments pertaining to him which he didn’t note. And why statements he posted in transcribed Arabic in an e mail to me contained basic errors of syntax. And why he confused Arabs with Muslims, an error even a person w. the most basic knowledge of Islam would not make. Nothing further about the alleged PhD degree he’s pursuing in Middle East studies. BTW, there are a number of Bernard Lewis-type Israeli academics w. whom he could study & still maintain his antagonistic attitudes toward Arabs. But I don’t even believe he’s registered in such a program.
This is like a kid’s game of “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.” Actually you know my name, why can’t you use your own?
You’re conflating “Arab” & “Muslim.” Don’t be so sloppy. It shows you are either ignorant or insensitive or both.
Here you go. I hope this link does not fall under your propoganda definition.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128687649
Plus, I did not say that anyone is “telling” Israel to pull out of Gaza. We all know that has already happened. However, they were told, pull out and there will be peace. Well? Where was the peace? No peace only more lies.
I love this one…”Translation: If a Palestinian quisling leadership will roll over & play dead on behalf of Israeli interests a deal can be done w. a snap of the fingers.”
Then I get accused of putting words in peoples mouths. Thanks for your bit of Hasbara from the Institute of Propoganda, Lies and Corruption. WHERE IS THE MONEY?
Who told Israel this? Perhaps Ariel Sharon tried to sell this bill of goods to Israel. But no serious person I ever heard made such a claim. Israel had no right to expect peace under the circumstances since it never negotiated the withdrawal w. the Palestinians.
I didn’t say anyone paid you to do what you do. If you want to prove that no one has done so you’ll have to provide yr bank account records.
Or are you claiming someone is paying me? If the latter you’d tread awfully careful…
Re Zvi to Shirin:
“While i am not surprised that Richard is behaving like that, i am very surprise that you are acting like that – as i thought that Arabs have a minimum sense of self respect.”
Let me figure that one out….. Are you complimenting Shirin
on having more self respect than Richard — even if it’s only “a minimum” because that’s what Arabs have? Oh, no I guess I have that wrong; you’re actually saying Shirin doesn’t have even the minimum sense of self-respect you expect from Arabs? That Shirin is actually as lacking as Richard in the self respect department?
Reminds me of something Norman Lear told me many years ago during the production of ALL IN THE FAMILY. Norman said many of Archie Bunker’s lines came straight from his own father, including the following, which I believe was directed at Norman:
“You’re the laziest white boy I’ve ever met.”
Oh, and as for your other statement:
“as for my identity, the day other folks on this website will identify themselves by their fool name, i will do the same.”
Many of us do use our fool names when posting here.
Since “Zvi Lapkin” isn’t his real name I suppose it really is a “fool” name.
“when i grew up, it was mandatory in Israel to learn 2 second languages, English was a mandatory option and then you were able to select either Arabic / French. i picked Arabic.”
Perhaps you should have picked French, since you clearly didn’t learn much Arabic. You are incapable of recognizing simple Arabic words presented one at a time, and you do not notice the most glaring grammar errors, even in things transcribed to western script. Your lack of knowledge of Arabic is pretty appalling even for a fourth grader, let alone for a supposed Islamic Studies scholar.
And speaking of your claim to be an Islamic Studies scholar, how can anyone obtain a degree in Islamic Studies, and qualify for a PhD program without being able to recognize simple, ordinary Arabic words, and glaring grammar errors?
You know it is really sad that all you can talk about is רקטות and פצצות. Wasn’t it you who stated safe heaven to all ?
next time why don’t you try to stay on topic, i was warned by Richard to stay on topic, you should be aware that if you will get off topic he will moderate you. (don’t worry is a hypocrite Bolshevik, you will not be warned, but i will be banned from here forever)
and please you know how many Arabic – English, Arabic -Hebrew , on line dictionary there are ?
, that is how you measure if someone speaks Arabic or not ? do me a favor, you are insulting your own intelligence ( a very hard thing to do)
I haven’t banned you yet because I know you will whine & cry in your beer over it with all your right wing buddies at Fresh or Rotter or wherever you hang out. But this isn’t those forums & you don’t get to hurl ad hominem attacks at me. Call me a “Bolshevik” again or anything remotely similar & you’re outa here. This is your final warning.
Further, I’ve told you not to repeat yrself in yr comments & I just deleted a comment you made seemingly for the 4th or 5th time. Do NOT repeat yrself.
[comment deleted–commenter banned]
“both you and Richard ignored every fact presented to you in this debate…”
You see, a fact can be a fact, but when it does nothing to support your argument, it is irrelevant.
Or, do you mean the “facts” you copied and pasted from a source that was written by a “scholar” who actually thinks Shari`a means “path”?
Why can’t i use my real name ? because i don’t trust you.
look what you did, you published parts of emails we exchanged, violating my privacy. you published my last name (part of my email) which you state “will not be published”
everyone browsing your blog should be concerned, you will not hesitate to forward all information to you hamas oriented friends.
so are you trust worthy Mr Liar ?
i don’t think so.
Nah, you made the decision to hide behind a fake name the first time you commented here & before you knew anything about me. I think you chose a fake name because you thought you might be saying things we might try to verify & you didn’t want us to be able to do so. But we outed yr false claims anyway.
I didn’t publish anything you e mailed me. I paraphrased what you wrote to me & if you check my comment rules it clearly states that if you engage in insulting conduct in such personal correspondence I will feel free to use this in my blog, which is precisely what I did except that I didn’t quote anything you wrote. And besides, the notion that e mail is a private means of communication is silly. Did you even ask me to maintain yr confidence or treat the e mail as private? No.
Now I’m confused. You said you didn’t use your real name. And now you claim that I’ve revealed your last name & it IS your real name. You’ll have to explain that one to me.
You were on yr final warning & that does it for you. So long, it’s been good to know ya.
“You know it is really sad that all you can talk about is רקטות and פצצות.”
I’m sorry, Zvi, my knowledge of Hebrew is limited to the alphabet, and a handful of words, and I have never pretended otherwise.
“and please you know how many Arabic – English, Arabic -Hebrew , on line dictionary there are ?
, that is how you measure if someone speaks Arabic or not ?”
Are you really as thick as you appear to be? What has a dictionary to do with your inability to recognize simple Arabic words presented one at a time? If you were, as you claim, an Islamic Studies scholar, you would be a fluent reader of formal and Qur’anic Arabic. You most certainly would not need a dictionary to read the ordinary, and very common Arabic words I put on this page, and to know their meaning. In fact, if you had even one semester of Arabic study you would know those words on sight without strain and certainly without a dictionary. I know kids who could read those words and knew their meaning at age three.
I measure whether someone reads Arabic or not based on whether or not they can read Arabic. I also measure their knowledge of Arabic by whether they can recognize and avoid the kind of grammatical error that simply leaps out and grabs you by the throat. You can do neither. In fact, you were not even smart enough to copy and paste those Arabic words I wrote into an online dictionary so you could pretend to know what they were, and it looks like you still have not been smart enough to do so.
Or are you claiming that at Hebrew U the Qur’an and other critical religious and historical texts are studied in translation only?
Mary, not only did Ahmadinajad not say what he has been accused of saying, what he did say was not his own thoughts and words. He was repeating a statement that was originally made by Khomeini in commemoration of Jerusalem Day, and that is traditionally repeated on that day. A more correct translation of that statement is that the regime that is occupying Jerusalem will one day disappear from the pages of time. There is no threat implied, and the statement, made in commemoration of Jerusalem Day, refers to the Zionist occupation of Jerusalem as being transitory in the overall picture of the city’s history. “This, too, shall pass” is a reasonable way of interpreting it.
I have posted here on another comment the link to the correct quote. Besides, even if Ahmadinejhad said it, so what? He’s not the King of Iran. And Israel is not the only country in the world that is the recipient of nasty remarks (for a good example, look at the US).
I was responding the other Mary, Mary. Maybe I should differentiate by referring to her as MHT or something. :o} I do agree with your “so what?”. As I have pointed out myself, Ahmadinajad does not determine military or foreign policy and really has no say-so in these things, so even if he wanted to destroy Israel, which is not supported by an actual evidence, he doesn’t have the power to make that decision, let alone carry it out. As for countries that are the recipient of nasty remarks, I submit Iran as one that is the current recipient of a great many belligerent, nasty, and seriously threatening remarks and actions.
” I too do not accept the concept of a Jewish state, and I would very much like to see an end to it”
“The truth is nobody anywhere can say anything at all critical of Israel’s policies without being accused of wanting to wipe Israel off the map ”
Mary, u urself want to “wipe Israel off the map”. Of course, it doesnt mean u want all of us (the jews down here) to jump into the mediterrian sea, it only means u want to change the regime here, and to turn israel into “state of all of its citizens” (a translation from hebrew – i dont really know the appropriate english term, but im guessing its obvious what i mean), which is equall to creating a completly different state here, and giving it a random name = wiping israel of the map.
For some reason though, u and others here ignore the quesntion people’ve been asking so many times: why is it ok to have a country where the official religion is islam (and i’d really be glad to find out im mistaken – but so far no one provided a link contradicting islam being egypts official religoin, and i found similar informatin about jordan with googling “jordan official religion”) and its forbidden to have a state where the official religion is judaism?
Once you agree a “nation state” is an acceptable term – what does it matter which nation creates such a state?
(and for the record – i really would wish to live in aworld where ones etnicity doesnt matter, but unlike what u think the antisemitism is not really gone. my moms been attacked for “looking jewish” a few years ago, and no one can guarrante there wont be a new hitler anywhere anytime. even in germany itself theres a nazi minority. how can u guarrantee next time they have a financial crisis people wont chose nazis again?)
Do u really think in palestine (and i do, really do, hope there will be such a state one day) theyll ever have a jewish (or even christian) P.M or president?
For some reason you all assume itll be a democracy where ones etnicity or religion wont matter, but as far as i know (and again- you are more than welcomed to correct me) more of 90% of the palestinians are muslims. of course there are also christian palestinians (ive yet to meet a jew who sees himselfas such), but as i said – the vast majority of palestinians are muslim, and such is the government theyve chosen to themselves when they could (the hamas).
Do u really believe in palestine islam wont be the official religion? we cant really tell what the future brings, but since we all agree hamas is their currently chosen government, and i dont see anyone (not from israeli media – which is regarded as not reliable here) claiming the people in gaza are not satesfied with, why people here are so sure Palestines government will be any different?
My heart goes to the palestinians, who have suffered way too much during the last 60 years (and with all the respect, even their “friends” in jordan contribute pretty much to it, as states the following link : http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/02/01/jordan-stop-withdrawing-nationality-palestinian-origin-citizens), but theres a big difference between acknowledgin their right to have their own state, doing something to help create it and working towards changing the regime in israel.
I was with you until you got to this pt. And no, changing the nature of the State is not equal to wiping it off the map nor would it involve changing its name. It WOULD involve a transformation in the way the state interacts with all ethnic groups which comprise it. That is NOT “wiping Israel off the map.”
Very simply because modern Israel expelled 700,000 indigenous natives in 1948 & then subordinated the remaining million or so remaining Palestinian natives giving them 2nd class citizenship. Israel claims to be a democracy & unlike Egypt really believes that it is. Israel simply cannot honor democratic values & ignore the religious traditions & rights of its Palestinian citizens. If Judaism is the official religion of Israel then it is a theocracy rather than a democracy. You also forget there are MANY secular Israelis who want nothing to do with the Jewish religion. They’d be far happier being Israelis, that is having an Israeli nationality rather than a Jewish religious affiliation. Not to mention the Israeli Palestinians who would be dispossessed by the State declaring its nature to be Jewish.
Because they’re in the middle of the most serious economic crisis since the Great Depression & haven’t turned to the Nazis.
Let’s say for the sake of argument that I agree that this is unlikely. Does that somehow justify accepting the fact that Israel can never have a Palestinian or Muslim PM or president? Why is this issue to be judged by relativism or comparison to a neighbor? Why not judge Israel on its own terms irregardless of what happens in other societies or neighboring countries? Is Israel’s aim to be a little better than the worst–or among the best?
Actually you are wrong on many counts. There are more than a million Israeli Palestinians who have not chosen a Muslim politicla movement to represent them. Fatah is not a Muslim movement & it rules the W. Bank. Look what happened to yr nice tidy argument. I guess it hit a snag.
You mean other than the fact that Fatah has always been a secular nationalist movement & that its governance of the W. Bank is not Islamist in nature? Other than that, sure I guess you’re right.
We all agree that Hamas is the currently chosen gov’t of Palestine??? SInce when? I think you’re not firing on all cylinders there brother.
Indeed there is, a world of difference. And yr claim that your “heart goes out to Palestinians” for their suffering means about as much as my wish to live out my life in the lap of luxury. If wishes were horses you’d be ridin’ As they aren’t, you’re sitting in a ditch.
@ Richard
Please don’t try so hard.
Article 4 of the Palestinian Constitution adopted by the Palestinian national council 2003 (Fatah Controlled) states:
ARTICLE 4
1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Palestine_%282003%29
In addition to his other deficiencies (including a SERIOUS deficiency in Arabic – as in he has demonstrated he doesn’t know it at all – odd for someone who declares himself an Islamic-studies specialist), Zvi does not understand the difference between declaring Islam as the official religion in a. historically majority Muslim state, and declaring a Jewish state in a region whose inhabitants are overwhelmingly not Jewish and have been for many centuries.
And for the record, I am opposed to any state having an official religion, but I also recognize the difference between defining a state with a non-Muslin population an Islamic State and declaring Islam as the official religion of a state with a majority Muslim population. I also recognize that it is different to bring members of a religion into a territory from a different continent, colonize the territory, cleanse it of indigenous members of the “wrong” religion, and then declare that territory the state of the colonizing religion.
Zvi not only has proven he is anything but a specialist in Islamic studies, he has demonstrated that he lacks basic reasoning ability.
Thank you for your responses, Richard. I’m always amused when I see desperate people putting words in my mouth, so I appreciate it when you step in and straighten out their heads a bit.
I’ll respond here by saying that I don’t want to wipe Israel off the map, obviously. I just don’t believe in ethnic cleansing and ethnic supremacism; I also don’t believe in illegal occupations and land theft. Additionally, I don’t believe the US should be propping up lunatic regimes which seem to relish killing and oppressing native populations.
You seem not to know that I myself am a Muslim; as such, I have no problem with seeing a Muslim government in Palestine or anywhere else. And to answer your question about why there is such an objection to a “Jewish state,” it’s because of the hypocrisy involved. Zionism hijacked Judaism, exploits the religion and the holocaust, to justify its secular ideology, which is to steal land and resources from a native population, expel or kill them, and destroy that native culture. Israel is unique in this regard.
“Very simply because modern Israel expelled 700,000 indigenous natives in 1948 & then subordinated the remaining million or so remaining Palestinian natives giving them 2nd class citizenship. Israel claims to be a democracy & unlike Egypt really believes that it is. Israel simply cannot honor democratic values & ignore the religious traditions & rights of its Palestinian citizens. If Judaism is the official religion of Israel then it is a theocracy rather than a democracy”
Richard, although israel has laws based on judaism, just like christian countries have laws based on christianity. theres a gap between having laws based on tradition/religion and being a theocracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_Germany
Look how many public holidays in Germany ( a random sample i chosen) are based on christian holidays/tradition. Does that turn germany into theocracy?
Israel *might* turn into such, and this bothers me (and many others here) not less than the conflict with palestinians, however right now its not the case.
You write that we “cant ignore religios traditions” of others
what does that even mean? Again, theres a difference between having freedom of religoin (and last time i checked there were no anti muslim laws here) and having a freedom to change the nature of the state (which is what some of hte palestinians are trying to)., You make it look like israels been denying muslims from building mosques or anything like that..
“You mean other than the fact that Fatah has always been a secular nationalist movement & that its governance of the W. Bank is not Islamist in nature? Other than that, sure I guess you’re right.”
If they all are so secular – how come jerusalem plays such a central role in the conflict? i – as a completly secular person – couldnt care less about jersdualem. as much as i care- it can become part of muzmabiq, palestine or any other country.
the link above my response that was brought by zvi shows that islam is the official religoin of palestine. Are u still sure they all that secular?
” Why not judge Israel on its own terms irregardless of what happens in other societies or neighboring countries? Is Israel’s aim to be a little better than the worst–or among the best?”
Because the palestinians ARE the “other societies” you mention. Israel is not located in Norway, and although u seem to disagree on it – last time i checked hamas was the chosen government of the palestinians, and fatah controled the west bank pretty much only because israel wanted it to. Besides, who are those “best” exactly?
Im not sure immigrants in european countries are integrating better into the societes there than israeli palestinians are integrating here, so this “best” might be more of an utophia than real world countries.
Unlike mary, who answered to me although i wasnt talking to her, but to the other mary, i *dont* want to live under islamic rule. I respect the right of the palestninians to live under such, however, and this is exactly why they should get their own state, but i prefer to live in a state in a size of tel aviv and to give palestinians the rest of the land than to live in an islamic state.
Richard, for some reason liberals like urself from the west tend to think the whole world wants to live in a western europe like democracy. Unfortuantly, this isnt the case for most of the socieites around the world.
“Thank you for your responses, Richard. I’m always amused when I see desperate people putting words in my mouth, so I appreciate it when you step in and straighten out their heads a bit”
MAry, as already mentioned – i was talking to the other mary and not you. I am not “Desperate” – its just a discussion on an internent blog. I have no interest in having arguements over games of words with u.
And of course, you dont to wipe out israel. u just dont believe it has the right to exist. of course its not the same thing. (and if you’d read what i said you’d see i explicitly wrote i dont think wiping israel of the map = throwing jews into the sea, but changing its regime to state of all of its citizen, which eventually will lead to an islamic rule here)
It is not yet a theocracy, but it is heading rapidly in that direction. There are highly influential settler rabbis who advocate overthrowing Israel’s ostensibly secular gov’t & replacing it w. a halachic monarchy. The Orthodox maintain a deep influence over not just societal areas where you’d expect religion to play a role, but in far flung & disparate areas in which you wouldn’t expect such intervention.
In short, if the religion of Israel is going to be Judaism, then eventually it will have to acknowledge a 2nd state religion, Islam & perhaps even Christianity. Otherwise, it will not be a democracy. But it would be far better for Israel to maintain a separation bet. church & state such as exists here so that it doesn’t have to go down that road.
Are you really arguing that Islam isn’t deeply disrespected within Israel? That mosques have not been burned & desecrated not just in the Territories, but within Israel proper, that Muslims choices for religious leaders haven’t been rejected by secular authorities for no stated reason which Jewish religious designees are never rejected? Do you think you need a law to prove discrimination?
If Israel is so secular why does Jerusalem play such a central role within Israel itself & Israeli identity? Why the obsession with the Temple Mount & Western Wall? Why the soldiers weeping when they conquered it in 1967? Why the unwillingness to share Jerusalem if the city isn’t religiously sacred to the State of Israel as well as Palestinians???
I care less about what any society or nation says in its national documents (& btw I don’t trust anything Zvi says about anything but I’ll grant what he claims here just for the sake of argument) but how this is implemented on the ground in day to day life. The West Bank, the PA & Fatah are secular-based institutions, not Islamic.
I see. When it’s convenient to yr argument you compare Israel favorably to its Arab neighbors, but when it’s not you compare it favorably to Norway & other western democracies. You know as well as I that Israel doesn’t emulate Palestine, but rather Norway. It would much rather be seen as a competitor to Norway than the West Bank. It would much rather its political system & society be compared to Norwegian standards than Palestinian. But when you’re looking at the worst Israel has to offer then you compare it to Palestine rather than Norway. How convenient.
Ah, I see. Hamas was elected once in 2006 & Israel ensured it could never rule & now we saddle all of Palestine w. the description: ruled by Islamists. Sorry buddy, Hamas doesn’t rule Palestine merely because it was elected. It rules Gaza. That ain’t Palestine. Israel never allowed democracy to develop sufficiently in Palestine to determine who might win a 2nd or 3rd election. So no Israeli gets to complain that Islamists rule Palestine.
Unfortunately for yr argument Israel’s gov’t & its people constantly confirm their own aspirations to be seen as a western style democracy when it is nothing of the sort. Similar perhaps in some aspects, but quite dissimilar in others.
What stupid nonsense. Because Israel has 1 million Arabs, many of whom are Muslim (of whom many of these are far more secular than religious), this means that they will eventually at some unspecified date become a majority AND THEN turn Israel into an Islamic state? And all because I suggest that giving Israeli Palestinians rights equal to Jews as part of a secular political transformation of Israeli society? Is that really yr argument?? And you’re serious about this?
[comment deleted for violating comment rules]
RE: “Goldberg also delivers a patently offensive and unsupported claims that Stephen Walt’s is a ‘Jew-baiting blog.'” – R.S.
MY COMMENT: Speaking of “Jew-baiting”, take a gander at this interesting response (comment) to Lee Smith’s Tablet column, “Mainstreaming Hate”.
LINK – http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/40064/mainstreaming-hate/comment-page-3/#comment-83447
P.S. So unless you want the Mossad to “take care of” you Mr. Silverstein, you might very well have “dodged a bullet” by virtue of Tikun Olam’s not having been found to “sit atop the junk-heap”. If that’s not enough consolation, try to imagine what it’s like going through life with a name like “Lee Smith”. “See Spot run, Tom Jones!” Imagine the overcompensation. Or should I say “witness it”? And I thought “John Dickerson” was bad!
Richard, there’s going to be a flotilla sailing from the US this fall, called the Audacity of Hope. If you join, I’m sure it’ll give you all the cred you need to get to the top of their sh*t list.
zvi, Ahmadinejhad didn’t call for the annihilation of Israel, only for the removal of its crappy government. Get your facts straight, and keep the hasbara out of the discourse.
“I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene,” he said.
“Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started.”
i guess you can Interpret his words using very creative methods.
Just FYI, the Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement condemning the Iranian president for his words (use google look it up)
not a surprise coming from someone who thinks that the rockets that are being fired from Gaza strip are an act of God and not the responsibility of Hamas.
How funny, zvi, that on another thread you would say that the UN has no credibility. Make up your mind, please.
i didn’t say the UN i said one of its committees, please don’t twist my words.
Well, the committee is part of the UN, is it not?
Zvi,
It takes some creative interpretation of the term of “regime” to take it as referring to a state as a whole rather than simply a government, and to mistake passive predictions with calls for of aggression. Also, I hope to see the diabolical establishment which controls my country meets its end soon too, as I believe we will be a far better country without them, both for our own citizens and the rest of the world.
you don’t erase a regime from a geographical scene you erase it from the political scene.
you better check the source in Farsi, the Iranian president meant the Israeli state, and in more than one occasion stated that Jews should go back to where they came from, AKA Germany, Poland etc.
the fact that you guys are protecting the Iranian president and his disgusting words, is a riddle to me.
The fact is, Ahmadinejhad has been misquoted. Of course, you don’t want to know that. The guy is a pinhead, but that’s beside the point. If you choose to give yourself nightmares over him, go right ahead. He actually said:
“The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4527
Zvi, it’s always amusing to read when people like you presume to lecture everyone on Sharia law – not that Sharia has any relevance to this blog posting. Your hasbara is clumsy and nonsensical, as is your knowledge of Islam.
The Sharia is made up of various schools of jurisprudence, which you name. However, Hanbali is not any more “extreme” than the others, only different in its interpretations of Sharia.
Get off this subject; it is irrelevant, and you are trying my patience seriously. Your pedantry is quite annoying especially when it merely highlights your anti-muslim prejudices.
@ Mary
Point being is that many Arab countries were formed with “Government under God ” which means as i stated above – Islam is the official religion listed in the constitution, sharia is declared to be a source, or the source, of the laws, which means Islamic supremacy, very similar to the Jewish supremacy in the state of israel. among these countries you can find: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria and i probably missed some.
you claim you advocate for the transformation of the Jewish state because it is of racist origin. my question to you still stands, why the Jewish state ? why not similar states in which there is also no separation of state and church, and there is also a religion based supremacy ?
this is not Hasbara, these are the facts.
@ mary and since i learned in the last few days how things work, and i realize you will discredit my statement above under the pretense of hasbara, i attach here article 2 of the Egyptian constitution:
Article 2
Islam is the religion of the state and Arabic its official language.
Islamic jurisprudence is the principal source of legislation
entire constitution can be found here:
http://www.uam.es/otroscentros/medina/egypt/egypolcon.htm
Oh please. If you want to debate about Sharia law you’re going to have to do that somewhere else. That’s off-topic. Not the subject of this blog.
@Richard, you miss the point.
I am not debating sharia law – I don’t care about sharia one way or another.
I am asking a simple question, from reading your blog and others it is apparent that a two state solution will not be the end of it, after achieving that you guys wants to change Israel to be a state of “all its citizens” and not a Jewish Supremacy state in which according to the scroll on independence everyone’s equal. I am asking why Israel, why not preaching for the change of Egypt, Syria , Saudi Arabia, or any other Arab country of “Government under god” type of regime ?
Eliminating the Jewish supremacy, in the state of Israel (1967 borders) would simply be the end of this place.
How lame. That’s not even a credible argument. It’s merely an unfounded prediction.
Zvi, deliberate obfuscation and strawman arguments, such as the subject of sharia being introduced on this thread, are also forms of hasbara. Stick to the subject of the thread and stop trying to impress me with your nonsense, ok?
@ Richard,
I understand folks who wants to implement their principle all across the board. i accept this type of idea.
my questions still stand why people on your website advocate only implementation of ideology within the state of Israel ? and not within the surrounding countries which their existence is based on similar principles ?
i understand your motive, you are a Jew who truly believe on what he says. my question was directed toward Mary.
P.S if you are going to dismiss each argument as either being lame or being part of the Hasbara, no real discussion will be conducted here. and just as an observation usually you use “argumentum ad hominem ” or you just simply discredit arguments.
You’ve asked this questions six ways till Sunday and you’ll ask it no more. You can ask a question once. If no one chooses to answer it it’s either that it’s a stupid question, an annoying & provocative question, or it bores people to tears. Take yr pick as to what applies in yr case.
You may not continue asking the same quesiton repetitively & shame people for not answering it. So don’t ask it again.
“you don’t erase a regime from a geographical scene you erase it from the political scene.”
Khomeini’s words, repeated buy Ahmadinajad, did not say anything about erasing a regime from the geographical scene.
Again, you don’t provide a source for yr translation which knowing yr views & agenda was likely MEMRI. Read my comment rules about acceptable sourcing. MEMRI is not a credible or acceptable source.
Kind sir.
Please provide a source of a translation that says otherwise.
I don’t know what you’re asking for. You brought the fake translation. If you want to quote Ahmadinejad find a credible source to do so. It isn’t my job to find such a source for you. If any other readers wish to suggest sources for you be my guest.
Can you send me info about this.
http://ustogaza.org/
I have just read the link provided by Mary H-T, so I guess Mary wasn’t being facetious at all. I’m trying to find out how I can join it in Europe. A donation will be on its way soonest.
Bravo for this continuing initiative.
Richard, I’m sure Mary was being facetious. Can you imagine a flotilla coming ll the way from the US across the Atlantic and into the Med.? Called, “The Audacity of Hope”, yet? About as audacious as Obama’s “Yes we can.” If I’m wrong, Mary, please tell me, too, how I can join.
Richard, I’ll be expecting my honorary membership card for the Spinoza Society in the mail. Thanks.
Gene, it’s true we in the U.S. are in the process of raising funds for the purpose of buying and outfitting a boat named for our Nobel Peace Laureate Barack Obama. And while I love the idea of “The Audacity of Hope” sailing out from New York Harbor, I think it’s likely it will sail from a Mediterranean port.
Check the website at: http://www.UStoGaza.org
and come aboard!
By the way, there are two of us Marys here, and I am sometimes credited with her posts (and she with mine.) Since the two of us apparently think alike it’s no problem for me.
With deep respect for you and your work, Mary H-T, I am mystified how any person or group dedicated to peace and human rights would honour Obama in this way. He has done nothing whatsoever to merit the title of Nobel Peace Laureate, and I for one am embarrassed whenever the subject of his Nobel Peace Prize comes up.
One of his very first acts within hours of being sworn in as President was to sign off on drone attacks in Pakistan that resulted in the deaths of a number of civilians, including children. He has deepened the war in Afghanistan, increased U.S. military violence in Pakistan, attacked Yemen, and is becoming increasingly bellicose towards Iran. And it has been clear from the beginning that his promised Iraq “withdrawal” is merely a reconfiguring and rebranding of the imperial venture there. As for the Palestinians, he has that speech about America’s inviolable relationship with Israel down pat from repetition. Just press the button and out it comes no matter what recent outrage Israel has committed.
As a Nobel Peace Laureate, I’m afraid Obama makes a really great war president.
Shirin, re the naming of the U.S. boat to Gaza:
I completely agree with you about Obama, and I was surprised when I learned the organizers had chosen the title of his book as the name of the boat.
Now that other groups are stepping up to find and purchase boats, we at Free Gaza are taking more of a support and advisory role, matching some of their fundraising efforts and sharing the expertise we have gained so far, but not ourselves buying, registering and outfitting the boats. As you can imagine it hasn’t been easy for Free Gaza to continue raising money to buy boats for Israel to destroy and confiscate. Until the flotilla massacre we were struggling to get our efforts covered in the world media, particularly in the U.S. where we had been pretty much ignored, even when our first two boats successfully pierced the blockade two years ago.
Now, thanks to Israel’s act in attacking the recent flotilla and murdering nine unarmed passengers on the Mavi Marmara, we have become pretty famous and have learned we no longer have to continue trying to do it all ourselves. And we are grateful that other groups are now stepping up to finance and organize future flotillas.
I’m not sure how it was decided to name the U.S. the Audacity of Hope (and I’m not certain it won’t be changed) but I certainly don’t believe it was done to honour Obama. I don’t know anyone personally who isn’t bitterly disappointed in Obama, and I suspect the choice of name is an attempt at irony, perhaps to remind us all (and certainly Obama) that he has done little or nothing to deliver on his promises in his Cairo speech.
Your’re too soft on the Zionist regime. You should have agreed with me that Netanyahu is a war criminal for example, without asking questions haha. Also, Stephen Walt and Glenn Greenwald have been covered by major media. They are very well known guys.
As a long-time poster on Walt’s blog, I can testify to that. It’s just a highly debated and emotional topic, with almost anything generating a response even with Walt almost never posting anything himself in his comment threads.
I remember actually bowing out of the Israel comment discussions on his blog for a while. It was just getting too intense, too hateful, with flames left and right.
you are in our minds Richard. As soon as I finished Lee Smith’s piece I thought of you. 😉
Just think of how all the conservative commentators who weren’t mentioned in any Journolist emails must feel.
And anytime I think any conservative thoughts I’ll know that Eric Alterman will be thinking of me as a ‘f***ing NASCAR retard’ (Like all lefties Alterman loves the working class-just so long as it stays far away from him)
A question for Kyleb and all the other apologists for Ahmadenijab, there is a clip on youtube called “Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: “Death to Israel” which I can’t link to because it has a translation by Memri, so I guess linking to it would be a violation of Richard’s commenting rules. Their translation “today all the peoples have awoken. The Iranian people is the standard-bearer for the awakening of all these peoples…all the people are shouting a single cry. With placards in their hands and clenched fists they shout Death to Israel” Crowd – Death to Israel. Death to Israel.
You can make all sorts of excuses for him like this wasn’t at the UN, he didn’t actually call for the death of Israel he merely pointed out that others (those that have awoken) have called for the death of Israel, that Memri didn’t translate him right, that they edited the film before he denounced those calling for the death of Israel. What I don’t understand is why so many people that call themselves progressives spend so much energy trying to explain Ahmadinejad.
Not only is linking to MEMRI treif, publishing their translation is as well since it is not credible as proven by numerous articles attacking its translations from Arabic & Farsi. Don’t do it again.
Well, it can be clearly heard that Ahmadenijad says “marg bar esrail” which a quick google search using none memri sources confirms means “death to Israel”. The apologists concede that “marg bar” means “death to” but insist the real meaning is “down with”. I presume Andrew Sullivan is ok to link to
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/outing-iran-marg-bar.html
Frankly, it makes absolutely no difference to me if he’s saying “death to Israel” or “down with Israel”. It’s the same thing.
And no Israeli leaders have ever articulated the corresponding sentiment regarding Iran??
Before we move on to what Israeli leaders have said, can we then just agree that Ahmadenijad HAS in fact called for the destruction of Israel.
No, we can’t. And when will you acknowledge that Israel’s leaders have called for regime change against Iran?
“can we then just agree that Ahmadenijad HAS in fact called for the destruction of Israel.”
No, we can’t, and even if we could, so what? Ahmadinajad does not have the power to order the destruction of Israel or anyone else.
The subject of whether Ahmadeijad has called for the destruction Israel or not is one which comes up frequently in the comment sections of this and other blogs. I was not the one to bring it up. So, before moving on to what Israeli leaders have said and what capabilities Ahmadenijad has, I thought it would be useful to know what it means when Ahmadenijad stands in front of a crowd of thousands of Iranians and calls out “marg bar Israel” and the crowd responds “marg bar Israel.” Those of you (Richard, Mary Shirin) that insist that Ahmadenijad has not called for the destruction of Israel may be kind enough to explain that to me.
On the contrary, it comes up regularly raised by hasbarists & Israel advocates like you.
The US has had crowds of thousands chanting “Death to the USA”, and flag burnings, and politicians burned in effigy. I don’t lose any sleep over it. I don’t see why you sweat bullets over Ahmadinejhad and what he supposedly says. Richard’s right, too; the nonsense goes both ways. I think Israel has cornered the market on the manufacture of paranoiac hasbara as it concerns Iran.
You could start your own Tikun Olam glossary. I’ll offer the first entry.
Hasbarist=Someone who points out the truth in the comments section.
How to deal with a Hasbarist
1-You’re wrong (provide leftist source)
2-Even if you’re right what does it matter (make fun of poor English or typos. Add the word “sic” to any re-quotes)
3-Even if it matters why are you making such a big deal about it. (you must be insecure)
4-You’re just a Hasbarist.
Can I be added to your list of Jewish anti-Israel agents of influence?
Yes, as long as we can put “anti-Israel” in quotation marks.
As a total aside Richard wrote: “If you want to make any claims about BoneyM or anything else you will provide a credible source. If not, you will not make such claims.”
I was in Ramallah last Tuesday. Boney M did not play “By the Rivers of Babylon.” You can get credible confirmation from the Telegraph. They quote band member Maizie Williams and suggested that the decision was motivated by the following “Palestinians often question the Jewish historical connection to the Holy Land.” One can do a Google search and find the same story on AP, AFP etc. etc.
It was a nice show though, and a fun evening out.
And how many Palestinians travel to Tel Aviv to attend concerts?
How is that even remotely relevant to what I wrote?
Pea, you’re no Palestinian. Otherwise you would know that while Israelis can travel everywhere, Palestinians cannot. You can enjoy a concert in Ramallah or in Tel Aviv, but a Palestinian can’t. Nor can a Palestinian in Gaza even go to Ramallah to enjoy the concert you watched.
Even many Palestinians in the West Bank have problems getting to Ramallah.
You’re not telling me anything that I don’t already know. Very few Palestinians in the West Bank can venture beyond the Green Line – Palestinians with foreign passports, a few NGO employees, young children and the occasional person with a permit. My friend S_ effectively lives in Ramallah but works for a Jerusalem NGO. We went to see Madonna together in Tel Aviv and it was also fun. I still have no idea what relevance all this has to my initial comment. Was I suggesting anything that contradicted what you wrote subsequently?
No, Pea, I was not trying to contradict anything you said, I was merely calling attention to an interesting point which you expanded upon beautifully.
Zvi:
“all these states declare that they are part of the Arab world as part of their constitution.”
At least they all appear to have a constitution.
Zvi:
“everyone in Israel has freedom of religion, as long as they obey the different laws of the land.”
Is that an acknowledgement that the laws in Israel are not the same for all its citizens?
(Richard, I’m sorry but I get no “reply” button at the end of these posts so I can only respond this way)
No not at all, it’s an acknowledgment that if you are breaking the law, your freedom will not be granted (i hope it’s the same way in England as well)
as for the constitution, though israel doesn’t have one, we have what is known to be the “Basic Laws of Israel”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Laws_of_Israel
The Basic Laws are most definitely not a constitution, not even close.
Zvi July 25, 2010 at 8:44 PM: “everyone in Israel has freedom of religion, as long as they obey the different laws of the land.”
July 25, 2010 at 9:14 PM: “if you are breaking the law, your freedom will not be granted”
So, what you are saying is that if someone is breaking the law they lose their freedom of religion.
“(i hope it’s the same way in England as well)”
No, it is not the same way. Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right that cannot be taken away simply because someone breaks the law.
and you said that i demonstrate 4th grade skills ?
what i was saying is that if you brake the law of the land, you will loose your freedom. and that is because most likely you will be put behind bars.
does your freedom of religion being affected by that ? absolutely because you will not be able to go to your favorite mosque / synagogue for few years.
No, actually, I did not say you demonstrate fourth grade skills. I said you demonstrate skills that are lower than many three year olds I know.
If that is what you meant to say, you did not say it at all coherently.
“does your freedom of religion being affected by that ? absolutely because you will not be able to go to your favorite mosque / synagogue for few years.”
You clearly do not understand what constitutes freedom of religion, which does not include being able to go to your favourite mosque or synagogue.
“all these states declare that they are part of the Arab world as part of their constitution.”
What has that got to do with sharia (sic)?
“If Israel is so secular why does Jerusalem play such a central role within Israel itself & Israeli identity? Why the obsession with the Temple Mount & Western Wall? Why the soldiers weeping when they conquered it in 1967? Why the unwillingness to share Jerusalem if the city isn’t religiously sacred to the State of Israel as well as Palestinians???”
I never claimed israel was so secular. If u re-read what i wrote ull see that im aware as much as u r israel is getting clsoer to a theocracy than it was at the poast. What i did say was that palestinians are not that secular either, and as u, urself, mentioned that this is why jersualem plays such an important role in the conflict. Even the secular fatah is not ready to compromise on this issue. Fatah might be secular ideology wise, but u urself said that u “care less about what any society or nation says in its national documents… but how this is implemented on the ground in day to day life”, and in day to day life they are not read to compromise on jersualem – clearly a religious issue.
“Ah, I see. Hamas was elected once in 2006 & Israel ensured it could never rule & now we saddle all of Palestine w. the description: ruled by Islamists. Sorry buddy, Hamas doesn’t rule Palestine merely because it was elected. It rules Gaza. That ain’t Palestine. Israel never allowed democracy to develop sufficiently in Palestine to determine who might win a 2nd or 3rd election. So no Israeli gets to complain that Islamists rule Palestine.”
I didnt say “rule palestine”, i said “was elected by palestinians”. two different things.
Richard, since as u mentioned there was no 2nd or 3rd election, u – just as much as i do – can only guess what the palestinians would have chosen today.
I wasnt “complaining”. i was just saying that it seems like u chose to believe theyll chose a secular goverment, and i chose to believe they wont, and since i chose to believe they wont – i wanna make sure i wont find myself living in an islamic state in 15 – 20 years.
As u probably remember, back in 2006 when hamas was elected, it surprised +- the whole israeli intelligence community, and its been all over the israeli media.
Could u tell back in 2005 hamas would win the elections? could u tell back then hamas would conquer gaza strip? Can u somehow prove that if israel withdraws completly from west bank tommorow hamas wont take over it?
“I see. When it’s convenient to yr argument you compare Israel favorably to its Arab neighbors, but when it’s not you compare it favorably to Norway & other western democracies. You know as well as I that Israel doesn’t emulate Palestine, but rather Norway. It would much rather be seen as a competitor to Norway than the West Bank. It would much rather its political system & society be compared to Norwegian standards than Palestinian. But when you’re looking at the worst Israel has to offer then you compare it to Palestine rather than Norway. How convenient.”
“Unfortunately for yr argument Israel’s gov’t & its people constantly confirm their own aspirations to be seen as a western style democracy when it is nothing of the sort. Similar perhaps in some aspects, but quite dissimilar in others.
What stupid nonsense. Because Israel has 1 million Arabs, many of whom are Muslim (of whom many of these are far more secular than religious), this means that they will eventually at some unspecified date become a majority AND THEN turn Israel into an Islamic state? And all because I suggest that giving Israeli Palestinians rights equal to Jews as part of a secular political transformation of Israeli society? Is that really yr argument?? And you’re serious about this?”
I dont represent israel. i represent myself and my own views. I dont claim israel is anything close to norway (though we’ve yet to see what will happen in european democraties when theyll have more than 5% of their entire population from any different origin. judging by the laws they are starting to pass – the future doesnt look promising), i also dont care what “it would much rather be seen as”.
Im not a prophet and i cant tell in a 100% deterministic way what will happen if israel becomes a state of all of its citizens, but i can look around and say again “israel is not located in norway”. I dont see any neighbouring state (except for lebanon maybe, in a very partial way) trying to become norway (and its not even a religious issue only – even other basic cultural terms such as “family” are very different in those countries from what u have in the west), and i fail to understand why u r sure the situation is so different with palestinians – especially when you know that last time they had an option they chose hamas.
When people are really given the choice – u HAVE to assume they wont nessesarily chose what u expect / want them to, and as ive already said u cant just guess/ hope theyll choose west like democracy just because YOU believe its a better kind of regime for them.
Its very nice to read on the internet that people of all religions wish to disconnect state and religion all around the world, but simple google search for “jordan official religion” or “egypt official religion” returns “islam”. I doubt google lies and as much as u choose to disregard zvis links -i also doubt he brought faked documents or constituions parts – as its way too easy to check such links and to tell if its a fake. So how can u guarrante it wont happen in israel – if the palestinians become the majority here, and get to change the regime?
That isn’t true at all. They’re prepared to share Jerusalem. They’re not prepared to cede sovereignty over E. Jerusalem to Israel. That’s a reasonable demand on their part. It’s Israel that is intransigent on the Jerusalem question.
It’s about 1,000 times more likely that you’ll be living in a Jewish theocratic state in 15-20 yrs than an Islamist theocracy. I hope neither comes about btw.
The issue isn’t so much whether Hamas will take over–it might. The issue is what checks will there be on Hamas to ensure it cannot turn Palestine into an Islamist state. And that is an issue that Israel will have to let the Palestinians work out through democratic give & take. Plus, in any final peace agreement there could be a provision that Palestine be a secular state & constraints placed on any Islamization that might happen. But Israel might have to accept similar constraints against its own creeping Judaization since religious radicalization could harm both states.
One of the great strengths of America is that we have far more than 5% of our population fr. diff. ethnic groups as do countries like Canada. Both of us seem to be doing fairly well. So I have no doubt that Europe and Israel can negotiate this perilous process w a small amt of good will & forward thinking.
Look at our constitution. It prohibits that type of development. That’s what Israel needs for itself. A set of ironclad guarantees inscribed in a constitutional document which prevent the majority (whether Jewish or Muslim) fr. forcing a single national religion down the throat of the minority. This isn’t rocket science. A number of countries are structured in this way & they’re doing OK. Israel could too.
“The issue is what checks will there be on Hamas to ensure it cannot turn Palestine into an Islamist state. And that is an issue that Israel will have to let the Palestinians work out through democratic give & take. Plus, in any final peace agreement there could be a provision that Palestine be a secular state & constraints placed on any Islamization that might happen.”
Richard, it isn’t up to us to dictate what kind of government an independent Palestine would, or should, have. This is post-colonialist thinking and is inappropriate. The Palestinian people are the only ones who should determine what their government will be. And if it’s Islamist, then so be it.