62 thoughts on “Israel Shuns Syrian Negotiations – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Actually, Syria should turn its back on israel, because the very act of negotiation conveys some sort of legitimacy. If I were Syria, I would do everything possible to getnot just the Golan, and maintain ties with Iran. US comes and goes, but Iran is a neighbor

    1. Syria cannot both turn its back on Israel and get back its sovereign territory. It’s pretty much a case of neither or both. But there is nothing to say that Syria, which is a sovereign, independent country, cannot have whatever relationship it wants to with any country, including Iran.

  2. Every day seems to confirm that these are the precursor politics of the coming nuclear war. Netanyahu is desperate to order a strike on Iran regardless of the terrible worldwide consequences.

    These are very worrying times when the security of world peace rests with this single, second-rate, politician.

    The international community and the US in particular needs to be more aware of the danger that is now very near. The morning when we awake to find that Netanyau has attacked Iran, is the morning that we need to be very afraid, wherever we live: Israel, the US, the UK or anywhere else around the world.

    Iran will attack Tel Aviv in reprisal and Netanyahu will then have no option but to escalate his conflict with nuclear weapons. That will be the beginning of the end.

    There will be many who believe such a warning is merely scaremongering. Those who are better informed have already made plans to secure their lives and their assets.

    1. Iranians know that Israel would be doing Iran a major favor if Israel takes out Iran’s nuclear facilities. All Iranians realize the following:

      1. their government is too corrupt and non-savvy to be in charge of nuclear weapons.
      2. the Ayatollahs created a nuclear program to distract the civilians from basic economic failures of Iran.
      3. there is no need for a nuclear program in Iran or a nuclear arms race in Arab world.

      1. Really? Iranians know that? Did someone conduct a poll there? If so, please give us a reference so we can look at it.

        I believe your numbers 1-3 are not what all Iranians realize, but on your hate-based wishful thinking.

        1. On what basis do you say the government is corrupt and non-savvy. I find the non-savvy allegation to be particularly interesting because I don’t know a single credible expert on Iran who would agree with you. On the contrary, their analysis is that the Iranian government is very savvy indeed.

        As for the nuclear weapons canard, there is no evidence that the Iranians have a nuclear weapons program, but if they did one day begin to develop nuclear weapons, one could hardly blame them considering the serious threats against them from the U.S. and Israel.

        2. The Ayatullahs embarked on a nuclear program in order to have a nuclear source for power. It is also possible that they would like to have the ability to one day convert their nuclear development to a weapons program if circumstances warrant it.

        3. Actually, a nuclear program makes a great deal of sense for Iran, and ironically, the very people who are screaming the loudest about it now were at one time urging Iran to develop nuclear power. It is a very sensible solution for Iran since in the short term it would greatly reduce Iran’s domestic oil consumption, increasing the amount available for export. In the long term it would ensure that Iran had a reliable source of power as the oil supply begins to dwindle, and possible even put Iran in a position to export power to neighboring countries.

        Your concern about a nuclear arms race in the Arab world is very touching indeed, and rather a non sequitur since Iran is not part of the Arab world. However, since you brought it up I am compelled to point out to you that by far the most aggressive and dangerous country in the Middle East is also the only nuclear power in that region. Given Israel’s history of aggression, and the threat it poses to each and every country in the area, one could hardly blame any Arab country for wanting to have a nuclear weapon or two on hand as a deterrent. So, if you don’t want a nuclear arms race in the Arab world, how about addressing the one that started it in the first place?

        1. Shirin – just one tiny example of Iran’s corruption was the recent election fraud and then the numerous prison abuses of the protestors by Iranian security guards.

          1. Is that the best you can do, Randy? Just one example of alleged election fraud, for which, by the way, there is no real evidence? And on THIS you base your entire position? That’s pretty shaky grounds, I must admit.

            Try harder, Randy. You MUST have something more than this. And surely you can come up with at least one thing to substantiate your other claims. What can you offer to substantiate your claim that the Iranian government is non-savvy? And have you no response at all to me on the other points?

            Oh, yes, and I am still waiting for you to cite the source of your information about what Iranians know. Please share.

  3. Shirin – reality check: Iran’s Ayatollahs stole an election and then locked up and raped the protestors. If you think Iran is savvy and honest then you must think it’s honorable to put suicide bomb vests on teenagers – including girls and mentally slow teens – to make them martyrs. Otherwise you must acknowledge that Iran is run by paranoid Ayatollahs who use rapists to enforce their will.

    I have no problem with the Iranian people – very creative and smart, etc. And they are blessed with so much natural oil (why are their people so poor and angry? oh yeah, the govt. is corrupt) that they do not need a nuclear power program.

    Just like suicide bombers sometimes kill themselves while making a bomb… most Iranians are afraid someone will accidentally blowing up a nuclear bomb when they change a lightbulb. Better to have Iran shut it down on its own volition.

  4. Randy – reality check for you. There is no conclusive evidence that Iran’s Ayatullahs stole the election. The only thing that is certain is that some Iranians believe they stole the election, and that is not good enough to conclude that the election was stolen. As for the other charges, we also do not have good evidence that large numbers of protesters were arrested simply for protesting, and even less evidence that people were actually raped, although that is certainly common enough behaviour for non-democratic regimes. Come to think of it, it is not unheard of in democratic countries either, unfortunately.

    As for putting suicide vests on teenagers, provide some actual evidence that the Iranian regime has done this.

    For a reminder of some of the valid reasons for Iran to have nuclear power, please review my comment September 8, 2009 at 11:18 PM. I should not have to repeat myself. I remind you also that the very neocons who are now squealing like pigs about Iran having a nuclear program now were at one time urging Iran to develop nuclear power. The reasons then were much the same as I gave them yesterday. Do note also that Iran, unlike Israel, is a signatory to the NPT, and has not violated any of its provisions. Iran has every right in the world, and plenty of good reasons to develop nuclear power.

    most Iranians are afraid someone will accidentally blowing up a nuclear bomb when they change a lightbulb.

    That is prima facie bullshit.

    And how is it that you are so tuned into what “most Iranians” know, believe, and are afraid of? Show us your source for this information please?

  5. Shirin – my information about massive Iranian election fraud and prison rapes are found in the reporting of most objective newspapers. what is your source? By the way, can you acknowledge that the Middle East press is more controlled and punished by the government than in democracies?

    what proof do you have for your silly theories?

    1. Randy, you appear to be confused. It is you who are full of theories, not I, and I have asked you over and over again to offer something to substantiate them. So far you haven’t offered anything at all, nothing, zip, nada, wa la shi, maku shi, bupkiss, so its now time for you to put up or shut up.

      Here are the theories you have put in front of us so far without providing a scintilla of evidence for any of them.

      1. Iranians know that Israel would be doing Iran a major favor if Israel takes out Iran’s nuclear facilities. Please support this theory with evidence, citing specific sources.

      2. All Iranians realize that their government is too corrupt and non-savvy to be in charge of nuclear weapons. This is actually four theories. 1) The Iranian government is too corrupt to be in charge of nuclear weapons, 2) The Iranian government is too non-savvy to be in charge of nuclear weapons, 3) corrupt, non-savvy governments are not capable of being in charge of nuclear weapons, 4) all Iranians realize 1-3. Please provide specific sources in support of each of these four theories.

      3. All Iranians realize that the Ayatollahs created a nuclear program to distract the civilians from basic economic failures of Iran. There are two main theories here. 1) The Ayatullahs created a nuclear program to distract civilians from basic economic failures of Iran, 2) All Iranians realize this. Please support each theory with specific sources.

      4. All Iranians realize that there is no need for a nuclear program in Iran or a nuclear arms race in Arab world. There are really three theories here, but let’s just concern ourselves with two. 1) There is no need for a nuclear program in Iran, 2) all Iranians realize this. Again, please support each with specific sources.

      5. The recent election was a fraud perpetrated by the Ayatullahs. Let’s see some actual evidence for this, as opposed to speculation based on rumour, or evidence merely that a large number of Iranian people believed it to be the case.

      6. The Iranian government puts suicide bomb vests on teenagers, including girls and mentally slow teens, to make them martyrs. Please substantiate with specific, verifiable facts.

      7. Iran is run by paranoid Ayatollahs who use rapists to enforce their will. There are two theories here you need to substantiate. 1) The Ayatullahs who run Iran are paranoid, 2) the Ayatullahs who run Iran use rapists to enforce their will.

      8. Most Iranians are afraid someone will accidentally blow up a nuclear bomb when they change a lightbulb. Two theories here. 1) There is actually a danger that unless Iran’s nuclear program someone will accidentally blow up a nuclear bomb when they change a light bulb, 2) most Iranians are afraid that this will happen. Please provide sources to substantiate these two theories.

      OK, Randy, show us the money. Give us some real evidence for your many theories.

  6. Shirin – if you think Iranian government is an intelligent and fair democracy then do you agree with its president who said:
    1. there are no homosexuals in Iran
    2. the Jewish holocaust in Europe did not happen
    3. the country of Israel must be wiped off the map

    Do you agree with him? Is it rational?

  7. Randy, you have put forward numerous theories here without offering a jot of anything to support them, and now that you have been asked to put up or shut up, you try to divert the discussion? Do you really believe this is going to work? Stop trying to change the subject, and support your theories with specific facts and sources for those facts. Once you have done that, then you can ask me anything you like.

    I will give you this, though, for the record:

    1. You have been talking up to now about the Ayatullahs. Bringing up Ahmadi Najad is a red herring. Did you seriously think I would fall for that tired old trick?

    2. Ahmadi Najad did not say there are no homosexuals in Iran.

    3. Ahmadi Najad did not say the Holocaust did not happen.

    4. Ahmadi Najad did not say the country of Israel must be wiped off the map, and what he did say was not even his own words. He was quoting someone else.

    Now, please provide some substantiation for your various theories.

  8. Shirin – I have been speaking about Iran’s leaders and its government. You are bringing up a red herring by distinguishing between Ayatollahs and the rest of the corrupt government.

    You have a talent for denying all basic facts. I heard Iran’s president say “no homosexuals in Iran” with my own ears. I saw the words come out of his mouth. The whole world did. What kind of proof do you expect on a website?

  9. No, Randy, you have referred over and over and over again to the Ayatulllahs and only to the Ayatullahs. You did not mention Ahmadi Najad or any other aspect of the government until after I asked you to substantiate each of your theories. And now that you have been asked to provide facts and sources you are trying desperately to pretend that I am the one who has been offering theories. It won’t work, Randy. You are going to have to show us the money before you will have the right to make any demands at all of anyone else.

    I heard Iran’s president say “no homosexuals in Iran” with my own ears. I saw the words come out of his mouth.

    Really? You heard him say that with your own ears, and you saw the words come out of his mouth? And you understood every word? Where did you learn Farsi?

  10. PS “What kind of proof do you expect on a website?

    That’s easy. Since you are fluent in Farsi it should be no problem for you to produce a transcript of what he said in Farsi, and put side by side an accurate English translation of the Farsi. If you don’t read Farsi, but only speak and understand it, no problem. You can transliterate the Farsi into English script. That should not be difficult at all, and would be more than adequate, I should think, to prove that he said the words you assert that you heard with your own ears and saw with your own eyes as they came out of his mouth.

  11. Shirin – Iran’s president spoke at Columbia Unibversity and in the English language said “there are no homosexuals in Iran”.
    the whole world heard it, but the government-censored newspapers that you read did not print it.

    Do you get it? he said it in English, not Farsi.

    Now go eat a red herring

  12. So, you say you heard his Columbia speech in English? And you say you heard him say that there are no homosexuals in Iran? In English? And you say the whole world heard him say it? In English. How very interesting, since he gave the speech entirely in Farsi. And what makes it even more interesting, Randy my dear, is that Mahmud Ahmadi Najad DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL. Not even a little bit. He barely knows how to say “hello”, so even if he wanted to he would be incapable of making a speech in English. So, either you are delusional or you are a liar, and I am betting it is the latter.

    You, Randy F., are, my dear, a bold faced liar. Your pants are SOOOOO on fire (that IS the expression, is it not? Pants on fire?).

    Well, done, Randy. I provided the rope, but you did all the work. You very skillfully tied the hangman’s knot, put it around your neck, and pulled the lever that opened the trap door taking the floor out from under your own feet. Congratulations. Brilliant job, Randy, really, really brilliant.

    We must do this again sometime. I have really enjoyed myself.

    1. Just for the helluvit I’d be curious to know what he said in Farsi about the homosexual issue in Iran. It’s been quoted in English in a way that makes him look like he’s in total denial of the fact that there are gays in Iran.

      1. The sense of what Ahmadi Najad said was not that there are no homosexuals in Iran, but that there are fewer homosexuals in Iran than in the U.S., and the the situation with homosexuals is different in Iran than it is in the USA. That is undeniably true, as it is everywhere in the Middle East where homosexuality is, at best, far less visible than it is in the West. In places that are ruled by religion as Iran is it is pretty much invisible.

        I think homosexuality is actually less common in a place like Iran because, due to the strong social pressures against it, fewer men and women who are born homosexual ever even realize it, so they either get married and live out their lives as heterosexuals, or they remain single all their lives. And then there are those who understand their sexual orientation, and are in denial, or choose to remain very closeted all their lives. Of course, I have no data to confirm this, but I have that sense from living within Middle Eastern society. It is not terribly different in that aspect than it was until fairly recently in the West.

        Largely what Ahmadi Najad was getting at is that unlike in the U.S., you do not see overt public homosexual behaviour in Iran. We can argue about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but this is how it is. No doubt Ahmadi Najad and the rest of the Iranian government consider homosexuality a bad thing, as do nearly all fundamentalists of nearly all religions, but that does not make them evil or corrupt, or inept at running the country. Most importantly it does not make them a threat to world peace and security. It merely makes them, in the mainstream western view, unenlightened (while of course, they are likely to consider the western view as the unenlightened one).

        I believe that the situation for homosexuals has generally improved in most of the Middle East. I know a number of homosexual Syrian men who are out to their families, and are to varying degrees open about being gay. It is very difficult for the families, but in most cases I am acquainted with the families have come to accept that their son or daughter is not going to change, and while they are not happy about having a gay child, it is their child, and they do not stop loving and supporting them because they are homosexual. And they in turn respect their families’ sensitivity by not flaunting their sexuality. Of course I am sure there are also plenty of families who would never accept this in their children. Such families exist everywhere. The situation is perhaps even better in places like Lebanon and some North African countries where there are gay clubs, and slightly more open gay life. In any case, overall things appear to be moving in a better direction (assuming one believes that homosexuals should be able to live openly, and be equal members of society with straight people). The treatment of homosexuals in Iraq, which before was probably about as it is now in Syria, has worsened catastrophically since “liberation” – one more thing to thank George Bush for.

        In reality, what Ahmadi Najad said about homosexuality, especially as it was translated, was open to misunderstanding, and of course most of his audience was ready, if not eager, to put the worst possible construction on anything he said. What is really too bad is that instead of presenting a representative sampling of his speech, the media chose for publication only what could be used to present him in a negative way. The reality was quite different. First, after the inexcusably ugly manner in which the university president introduced his guest, Ahmadi Najad showed great dignity, and much more character and grace than President Bollinger did. His speech also revealed a person who was generally reasonable, well-informed, and intelligent – far from the bumbling, ignorant, uber extremist those in power would like us to see.

        It is not that I am a fan of Ahmadi Najad or the Iranian regime. Far from it. For one thing, I strongly prefer secular regimes. My position is that it is in everyone’s best interest to replace the cartoonish view we are fed of the “enemy” du jour as evil-and-stupidity incarnate with a truthful, realistic, well-rounded understanding of what and whom we are really dealing with.

  13. Shirin – every word in your post is a lie. You know what the president of Iran said about homosexuals. I worry about people who don’t speak English being in charge of an atomic bomb.

    1. Randy, you lied. You said you had heard Ahmadi Najad speaking in English when he does not speak English. Yes, I know what he said about homosexuals, and about Israel, and about the Holocaust, but you don’t because he does not speak English, and you do not speak Farsi.

      I worry about people who don’t speak English being in charge of an atomic bomb.

      Why, I do believe that this your way of admitting you were lying when you said you heard him say it in English. Good for you. Admitting it is the first step, you know.

      Now go crawl back under your rock, dear. You have exposed yourself to far too much light in the last couple of days.

  14. Shirin – it seems your big point is that none of us can really know about Iran because we cannot read Farsi. Because I cannot speak Farsi then everything I’ve read in English about Iran is a lie? By your silly logic, then the leader of Iran cannot really know what is happening in the western world because he cannot speak english.

    1. The problem is that those translating him work for MEMRI & similar propaganda outfits & distort his words when it suits them. I imagine there may be an Iranian version of MEMRI which twists the words of those in the west who speak about Iran. Birds of a feather unfortunately.

    2. Randy, read over the entire conversation before you decide what my “big point” is.

      And in the mean time, here is a bit of advice for you if you do not want to make a right ass of yourself every time you open your mouth: Never play smarter than you are about something when you just might be talking to someone who actually is.

  15. Shirin – read over everything and realize that you did not prove anythng. The world knows that Iran is corrupt, rapes its prisoners and its leaders denied there were any gays in Iran. You can posture about hanging jews with ropes and red herrings, but it makes you look dumber.

    Next you’ll tell us that Iran did not sponsor a holocaust denial conference.

    here’s a tip – don’t deny things the whole world knows unless you can offer specific reasons these things are not true.

    1. Corrupt? Where did you get that from? Are you saying that the election was fixed? That’s not the same as being corrupt. A little more precision is called for. While I tend to agree more with you than with Shirin regarding the charge that the election was rigged, the claim that the “whole world” knows this is mere hyperbole. As for the charge of rape, it is claimed that several people were raped while in custody. THis charge has credibility but has never been conclusively proven. Again precision is really handy in your case (but sadly lacking). Saying the “whole world” knows that prisoners are raped is a wild exagerration of reality.

      You’re like the Energizer Bunny–you keep coming back for more (punishment).

      1. For the record, Richard, I am not by any means saying that the election was not rigged. What I am saying is that we do not have sufficient evidence to say one way or the other.

        1. There have been many quite detailed analyses of this issue. Though I’m not an expert in Iran, Iranian elections or Iranian politics, the various reports which analyzed comparative results of this & past elections & various other factors seemed to make a very good case. I agree that no one has proven the case incontrovertibly. But they’ve come awfully close. I doubt three major Iranian leaders would put their lives on the line to make such a claim unless they have pretty damn good evidence to back it up. From the latest reports, one or all of them may be on their way to arrest, if not prison if the Ahmadinejad/Lariani/Khanmeini forces have their way. That’s a big price to pay for merely surmising there was fraud.

          As you know, I’m not among those who believes in demonizing Iran. But I do support a more tolerant, open regime than the one that currently reigns.

          1. Yes, there have been detailed analyses, some of which make more sense than others, and most of which have also been seriously challenged by knowledgeable people, including that brilliant statistician – sorry, the name won’t come to me – who did such a phenomenal job of predicting the 2008 U.S elections. The bottom line is that there is no conclusive evidence that the election was seriously rigged, so I am not convinced one way or another.

            What is certain is that a lot of Iranians were and are strongly convinced that the election was a fraud. It is clear that there has been massive dissatisfaction with the government for some time, and the last election appears to have been a tipping point. I think over time we will see some important changes taking place – provided the U.S. keeps its destructive little fingers out of the pot. If the U.S. decides the Iranian reformers need their help, then all bets are off.

            I am no fan of the Iranian regime now in power. Come to think of it, I was not a fan of the Shah and his regime either. On the other hand, I do not have an unrealistic view of it as the very personification of evil, and I am confident that Iran is not a danger to world peace and security, nor is it a threat to Israel’s security.

    2. My goodness, Randy, do you really want to go another round with me after the way you bloodied yourself in the last one?

      You really still do not seem to understand what is going on here. It is not up to me to prove anything, nor have I tried to do so. You are the one who burst into this long-dead thread, with blazing guns, making one hyperbolic claim after another. The burden is on you to support the claims you have made, and unfortunately for you, the only thing you have offered so far is a blatant, obvious lie.

      For a brief moment there I thought maybe this could be turned into a teachable moment for you, but obviously that is not the case. It’s been fun watching you self-destruct, but now it’s getting boring, and a bit sad.

  16. Richard – it seems your preroblem is i said “whole world” instead of “world”.
    my goodness Shirin – you have a funny habit of saying one thing (“elections were not rigged”) and then saying the opposite (“I’m not saying they were not rigged”). First you said Iran’s pig-in-chief did not say “Iran has no homosexuals” (although the world heard him) and then you say maybe he did say it.

    Shirin – you have to accept the fact that the world thinks Iran’s leaders are corrupt. (Richard – not the “whole” world”). Do you support suicide bombers? Do you think that is a good use of young Palestinians lives? Well Iran has been Hamas’ puppetmasters for years. If not for Hamas/Iran then Palestinians could have made a deal years ago.

    1. You’re right on the edge of losing yr comment privileges. DO NOT use the term you used to describe the leader of ANY country. Period. Do you understand? I personally detest Ahmadinejad. But he is the leader of a country of 70 million people (no matter what the outcome of the election) & they deserve to have him shown a minimal amt of respect here. You don’t have to love him. But you can’t call him what you did here & remain a commenter.

      The “world” does not think Iran’s leaders are corrupt. YOU think that. Say this again & after having been warned about this by me–your comments will be moderated. Iran is not Hamas’ puppetmaster. That’s an idiot ignorant just plan wrong statement. Hamas is quite independent fr. any national line. Just because a country supports another does not mean the supporting country “owns” the recipient one. I’m getting tired of yr spouting ignorant crap. Now you’re just trying to score pts instead of engaging in discussion.

    2. Randy, please do not put words into my mouth. I have not ever said the elections were not rigged, nor have I ever said “maybe he did say Iran has no homosexuals”. I have been consistent in my positions on both of these questions. There is on conclusive evidence that the elections were rigged. Ahmadi Najad did not say Iran has no homosexuals.

      Randy, I do not accept anything as fact without proof, and I certainly do not accept anything as fact based on your saying so. Support your claims with evidence, or stop making them.

      And “the world” did not hear him say Iran has no homosexuals. Only a small percentage of the world’s population even knew, or cared about that speech, and only a tiny, tiny percentage of the world’s population has heard any part of it. And even if every single one of the approximately 7 billion people in the world had listened to that speech, only the 1.5% of them who speak Farsi actually heard and understood what he said. You might learn to tone down the hyperbole a bit. It is not making your already very poor arguments any more effective.

      As for the suicide bombers/IranisHamaspuppetmasters/Palestinianscouldhavemadeadealyearsago, that is just plain false. Hamas is not the real impediment, and Iran is most certainly not the real impediment.

  17. Richard – i apologize about calling Iran’s prexy a pig-in-chief. I am personally sensitive about this guy because my parents are both holocaust survivors and he says that 6 million jews were *not* killed in the Holocaust and sponsoring a seminar to further these thoughts.

    Regarding Hamas and Iran, these are countries whose leaders routinely refer to the USA and Israel as Satan and satanists. I will not use the term puppetmaster. Is it wrong to say that Hamas cannot agree to any deal without Iran’s permission?

    1. Randy, I am very sorry about what your parents went through in the Holocaust, and very sorry that so many Jews, and others, were made to suffer as they did. The Holocaust scars not just those who went through it, but their children and grandchildren. It will take generations for the psychological effect to dissipate.

      It is absolutely contra factual to say that Hamas cannot agree to any deal without Iran’s permission, and the same for Hezballah.

    2. Is it wrong to say that Hamas cannot agree to any deal without Iran’s permission?

      Yes, absolutely wrong. And even to ask the question in the way you have indicates yr ignorance of Hamas, Palestinian nationalism & the real impact Iran has in the Middle East.

  18. Shirin – in the Arab world and in Iran the standard educational materials teach either that the Holocaust did not occur, or that the Jews were complicit in it. It is consistent with a demonization of Jews most recently exemplified by blaming Israel for the 9/11 bombing.

    1. Randy, how do you know what is taught in the Arab world and Iran? Have you personally examined the teaching materials? Do you read Arabic and Farsi (that is a rhetorical question)? It seems to me you “know” a lot of things that you have not even thought about trying to verify in any way, and this is one of them. Sadly, I get the impression that you enjoy these hateful thoughts of yours too much to want to challenge them in any way. That is really too bad.

      But let’s say just for the sake of discussion that denying the Holocaust IS a standard part of the curriculum in Iran and the Arab world. What needs to happen to change that? Using it as an excuse to hate and demonize and drive more and more wedges more and more deeply between you and other human beings does not seem like an effective method to me. It seems to me that if you want to see that changed, then it is better to try to build some bridges. I know several Jews, including at least one rabbi, who went to Iran where they visited the Iranian Jewish community, and met with a lot of other Iranians, including Ahmadi Najad himself. That seems to me to be a far better approach than calling someone a pig and letting it go at that, don’t you agree?

      And by the way, Randy, had you bothered to actually pay attention to Ahmadi Najad’s speech at Columbia, here is some of what you would have heard him say:

      the Holocaust is a present reality of our time, a history that occurred…

      I believe the Holocaust from what we’ve read happened during World War II, after 1930, in the 1940s.,/i>”

      why don’t we encourage more research on a historical event that has become the root, the cause of many heavy catastrophes in the region in this time and age?

      “Why shouldn’t there be more research about the root causes?

      we need to still question whether the Palestinian people should be paying for it or not. After all, it happened in Europe. The Palestinian people had no role to play in it. So why is it that the Palestinian people are paying the price of an event they had nothing to do with?

      I am not saying that it didn’t happen at all. This is not that judgment that I am passing here.

      “I said, in my second question, granted this happened, what does it have to do with the Palestinian people?

      In his appearance at Columbia he asked two questions about the Holocaust. First, he asked why there were objections to people researching it from different perspectives, and second, he asked why the Palestinians should have to pay the price for it (which is a really common, important, and good question). Now, you and I might quarrel with some of his ideas about the Holocaust, his conception of it, and the questions he asks about it, but this does not sound to me as if he is denying that it occurred.

  19. Shirin
    are you aware that last Friday September 18 2009 the Iranian president was speaking at Quds Day, an annual anti-Israel commemoration in Iran. During his speech Ahmadinejad reiterated his doubts about the Holocaust, questioning whether it was a “real event.”

    This was reported around the world and various foreign leaders denounced him. Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko responded to Ahmadinejad’s speech, saying “such statements, wherever they come from, contradict the truth and are totally unacceptable.”

    A report by IRNA on Monday quoted Ahmadinejad as saying that angering the world’s “professional man-slayers” – an apparent reference to Israel and some in the West – is a source of “pride for us.”

    So what is left to discuss except just how wrong Shirin is? Ahmadinejad is PROUD to call the Holocaust a fiction.

    1. There are only two sets of individuals interested in anything Ahmadinejad has to say about this subject: Iranian hardliners (& their Holocaust denying friends worldwide) and pro-Israel hardliners (& their Iran-haters in the Diaspora). The rest of us think Ahmadinejad’s views on this as on so many subjects are beyond idiotic & completely beside the pt.

  20. Rochard – Ahmadinejad’s views are the norm in the Arab world, which has been teaching Holocaust denial for 60 years. Check any Arab textbook.

    I am not a “hardliner”. Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map. If I oppose a hardliner, it does not make me a hardliner.

    1. Your views are hardline & entirely representative of the hardline Israeli government’s views on the issue & hardline anti-Iranian American Jewish leaders. Don’t like the term? Then don’t espouse hardline racist views.

    2. Ahmadinejad’s views are the norm in the Arab world, which has been teaching Holocaust denial for 60 years.

      What is your evidence for that statement?

      Check any Arab textbook.

      When was the last time YOU checked an Arab textbook – ANY Arab (sic) textbook? Never? And how much of it did you understand? Not a single letter? Then on what basis do you imply that they teach Holocaust denial in the Arab world (and by the way, I guess you are not aware that Iran is not part of the Arab world)?

      Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map.

      How do you know what Ahmadi Najad wants, and how do you know what he proud of or not proud of? Have you discussed it with him?

      As for what Ahmadi Najad did or did not say about the Holocaust, as I pointed out to you, in his speech at Columbia, and elsewhere, he has made a number of statements that recognize the reality of the Holocaust. I would like to see you , just once, provide something – anything – by way of real evidence for a single one of your claims. Unfortunately, we cannot depend on translations in the popular media, so you will need to come up with something more credible than that.

      I am not a “hardliner”. Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map.

  21. i never espoused any racist views – that’s a red herring. I noted that the typical Iranian view (emphasis on “typical”, not hardline) is that the Holocaust is a lie. Another poster spent a lot of time saying that Iranian president did not say that.

    1. the Arab world, which has been teaching Holocaust denial for 60 years.

      the typical Iranian view…is that the Holocaust is a lie.

      These are racist statements as in “the Jewish world has been teaching hatred of Arabs for 60 years.” That would be a racist statement. It’s OK, lots of people are racist when it comes to Arabs. You have lots of company. Why don’t you embrace your inner & outer racism instead of denying it? Denial causes such psychic damage.

    2. 1. You have made so many blatantly racist statements on this page that I lost count a long time ago.

      2. How do you know what the “typical Iranian view” is about anything? Is there a survey? A study anywhere we can examine? Have you ever even met an Iranian? Come on, Randy, give us SOMETHING to go on. PLEASE.

  22. Shirin

    welcome back to the conversation. Can we get beyond the level of “have you spoken with “Ahmadinejad”? or “did “Ahmadinejad tell you personally that the Holocaust did not happen”

    the newspapers in many countries have reported on Ahmadinejad’s speech last Friday. Many foreign leaders have responded specifically to his comments, and he had actually replied, saying he was proud of them.

    So can you please deal with the substance, not just “how do you know?”

    1. Randy, my dear, there is no substance until you can provide actual evidence, which so far you have failed to do on every single one of your claims to date.

      And in any case, as Richard has suggested, so what? The only people who care what Ahmadi Najad says are racists and extremists. Sorry to say, my dear, if you are neither, then you have done an outstanding job of impersonation, and I congratulate you.

    2. PS I am finished with this thread. It is stale by in terms of age, and subject matter, and going in circles gets tiresome after a while.

  23. Shirin
    are you saying that Iranian schools teach that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust? If Iranian schools teach that as part of the curriculum, then I stand corrected.

    hint: Iran was proud to sponsor a conference on Holocaust denial.

    is this racist to note this?

    I would note my sources, including the New York Times, but you do not trust any translations in reputable papers like the NY Times.

    1. It is racist to say that “Iranians” deny the Holocaust. It is not racist to note that the Iranian government sponsored a conference denying the Holocaust. Do you understand the difference?

      I don’t know what Iranian schools teach. Do you? If so, how do you know & who told you? If you don’t, then you shouldn’t speak at all on this subject.

    2. Randy, I know this is difficult for you to wrap your mind around, but the Holocaust is not a big subject in the Iranian school curriculum. In fact, it might shock your narcissistic little heart to realize that the Holocaust is not even a universal Jewish experience. Jews living in Muslim countries were not touched by it at all, as a matter of fact, and most were not aware of it until much later.

      Iran was proud to sponsor a conference on Holocaust denial.

      Congratulations! Lovely textbook example of a classic logical fallacy.

      I would note my sources, including the New York Times, but you do not trust any translations in reputable papers like the NY Times.

      Wow – the New York Times! Great source. And do you still believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, including mobile bioweapons labs, and was BFF’s with Bin Laden?

  24. Shirin, my dear, i see you run away from the real discussion. It’s ridiculous to dismiss an important speech by saying “only hardliners even care about the president of Iran”.

    Can you imagine if the president of Russia or the USA said “there are no Palestinian people”. Would you also say “only hardliners care what those presidents say”?

    1. PS Let’s also not forget that Israel and its supporters are leaders in denial of a holocaust that preceded by a couple of decades the one that took place in Europe in the ’30’s and ’40’s, and may even have served as inspiration for Hitler. So, yours is not the only genocide that some people refuse to acknowledge.

        1. Yup, that’s what I’m talking about. An estimated 3/4 of the Armenian population were slaughtered in that thing that Israel and its supporters can’t quite bring themselves to acknowledge. Hundreds of thousands of refugees fled into Northern Iraq, Iran, and (Greater) Syria. The people living in those areas took them in, gave them shelter and food, and hid them from the Turks, often at great risk to themselves, as hospitality demands. The Armenians generously rewarded their benefactors by becoming among the most productive members of society. My family in Northern Iraq took in a small girl who had separated from her family, and when they were unable to locate her family they raised her, educated her, and when the time came found her a suitable husband, and when her sons came of age they sent them to Britain for their university education as engineers. This is not a terribly unusual story, really.

    2. Would you pls read a book about Iran so you don’t appear as ignorant as you come across. Iran’s political system is not the same as the U.S. or Russia. We have a strong president. Iran doesn’t. The U.S., in case you weren’t aware doesn’t have a supreme spiritual leader like the Ayatollah. Ahmadinejad has no say in foreign or military policy. Did you have any idea that this was so? I doubt it. Where do you pick up what you “know” about Iran??

  25. LOOOOOOOOL! Rand, Randy, Randy! Really, this time I do not even have to provide the rope. You brought your own rope, tied the knot, put it around your neck, and pulled the lever.

    Shall we list all the big time Zionist and Israeli leaders, starting from the original “land without a people” scam, and carrying it on as a continuous threat to the present moment, who have insisted that there are no Palestinian people, and have done so in order to try to erase the very people they insist do not exist? And you are all exercised because a few extremist kooks in this world deny the Holocaust? Well, guess what Randy. Denying the existence of the Palestinian people has not altered one iota the fact that they exist. In fact, awareness and recognition of not only their existence, but also Zionism’s and Israel’s crimes against them has grown. Nor will the denial or questioning of the Holocaust by a few extremists alter the fact that it happened – would that it could erase that part of history and the misery it brought to so many.

  26. Richard – i have learned about Iran from reading many books and newspapers. But according to Shirin, we cannot trust the New York Times because their translations are not accurate.

    Iran’s denial of the Holocaust denial is part of a greater vilification of Jews that includes blaming Jews for 9/11 tragedy, Kennedy assassination, AIDs, and other tragedies.

    Shirin can insult me personally all you want, it’s kind of like Iran’s blaming all the world’s problems on the Jews.

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