47 thoughts on “Lies Jeffrey Goldberg Told Me (About Gaza) – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Bad as Goldberg is, and he’s awful, he’s no worse than Tom Friedman. Here’s Friedman contradicting himself today, first saying that Israel didn’t target civilians in Lebanon, then saying they did, and giving the reason for it–

    “Israel’s counterstrategy was to use its Air Force to pummel Hezbollah and, while not directly targeting the Lebanese civilians with whom Hezbollah was intertwined, to inflict substantial property damage and collateral casualties on Lebanon at large. It was not pretty, but it was logical. Israel basically said that when dealing with a nonstate actor, Hezbollah, nested among civilians, the only long-term source of deterrence was to exact enough pain on the civilians — the families and employers of the militants — to restrain Hezbollah in the future.”

  2. Your mistake and Goldberg’s. Who cares what sympathies Gazan’s have? Deeply felt, sincere, serious or whatever. If they just stop terrorizing Israel they can think what they like. All they need to do in Gaza is to pretend they are civilized human beings.

    1. Who cares what sympathies Gazan’s have?…If they just stop terrorizing Israel they can think what they like. All they need to do in Gaza is to pretend they are civilized human beings.

      I never cease to be amazed about how a professor of humanities can hold such racist views when it comes to defending his own nation. Palestinians have just as much right to see Israelis as “pretending to be civilized human beings” considering they have murdered 1,000 of them in just over 2 weeks. The lack of humanity you’ve betrayed in that time has left me puzzled and disappointed in you.

  3. You keep putting the cart before the horse, tzvee. The “terrorizing” is a RESPONSE to the siege of Gaza; the siege itself is a form of terror, and must stop. And when I say “siege”, I’m not only referring to the intensification of the siege that began with Hamas’ ascent to power; I also refer to Israel’s total control of Gaza’s coast, airspace, and borders. If Israel is not willing to relinquish that control, and get out of the way so that Gazans can lead ordinary lives, then it is not serious about stopping the rockets. It’s that simple, folks.

  4. Andy you have neither a cart nor a horse. Terror is not a response to oppression. The two have no connection whatsoever. Proof? When Jews were oppressed for millenia – they did not become wanton pointless terrorists. Your repetition of the idiotic suffering-breeds-terrorism mantra makes me want to puke.

    1. Terror is not a response to oppression. The two have no connection whatsoever. Proof? When Jews were oppressed for millenia – they did not become wanton pointless terrorists.

      That’s not quite true now is it, Tzvee. What were the Maccabees if not guerilla insurgents of their day? They too engaged in suicide attacks on their Greek enemies. They too killed their own (Jewish Hellenizers) when they viewed them as traitors to their own (Maccabean) form of Jewish values.

      And you don’t think the Romans viewed the Kochbaites as terrorists? What about the Sicarii who executed their fellow Jews as a result of religious-political differences? How about the Jewish partisans fighting the Nazis? YOu don’t think the Germans viewed them as terrorists? YOu see, one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. It all depends on your national perspective.

      Beware any ideological partisan like Tzvee who claims his own side is white as snow and the other side black as coal. Each side ends up a dingy grey which is the truth of current situation with Israel and Hamas.

  5. tzvee’s logic: since the jews were oppressed for millenia and DID not resort to terror, they are now fully within their right to unleash terror on others.

    Of course, one could also assume that had the oppressed jews of old, acquired critical mass in any one place, chance are they would have resorted to whatever terror was within their means to ensure their survival. Sometimes when they could fight back they did.

    Besides, tzvee, what hamas is doing is called RESISTANCE. What Israel is doing is called State terror.

    Ultimately, it’s israel that killed all those kids. Hundreds perhaps? but of course, it’s not israel’s fault – it never is. Those kids should have known better than to get born in gaza, right?

    Looks like our hasbara-meisters are running out of ammunition. So here is a tip for you, tzvee –

    the best counterclaim that I’ve seen israel make (courtesy of quote from an israeli apologist article cited by Phil Weiss) is that America did worse in falluja, so there. Now that much is, in fact, true. American soldiers pretty much executed over 3000 Fallujans, most of them civilians, losing 80 of their own, then raised the city to the ground, kicked out all the inhabitants, and now claims Falluja to be a model city for how to do counterinsurgency.

  6. Should tzvee even be entertained?

    “When Jews were oppressed for millenia – they did not become wanton pointless terrorists.”

    I love the exculpatory fact here: no
    “people” in history is absolved from “terrorism” or else they were extinguished forever. The availability of the press in all its form in the past twenty to thirty years has certainly helped put the spotlight on “hostile” segments that are deemed unworthy of equivalence. It must be tough to accept but many Jews committed rather horrible acts to fight against the persecution during the period and up to the Holocaust, and even the founders of Zionism don’t escape this when they attempted to push out the British and took arms against the Palestinians.

    As regards to Goldberg: I thought he had an about-face because of his endorsement of Obama last year. I guess when it all comes down to it your true colours show when a war (or a massacre) is going on.

  7. You keep putting the cart before the horse, Andy. The seige is a RESPONSE to the terror and rocket fire from Gaza; and when I say “terror” I mean not just the rockets and suicide bombings, but the very essence of Hamas: genocidal slaughter of Israelis (and Jews around the world) is enshrined as a religious obligation in its Charter. The Israeli control of Gaza’s borders is unfortunately necessary to prevent suicide/homicide attacks. It came after the terror. Israel’s total control of Gaza’s coast, airspace, and borders is simply a logical consequence of Hamas’s ideology. If Hamas is not willing to relinquish that quixotic genocidal fantasy, and get out of the way so that Gazans can lead ordinary lives, then it is not serious about reaching any cease-fire settlement that any objective person would recognize as reasonable. It’s that simple, folks.

    1. Wrong, wrong, wrong, Peter. Israel imposed the siege after Hamas won the 2006 elections & took over the PA. There were no rockets flying. Israel just freaked when Hamas won the elections & hadn’t expected their arch enemy to win. When it did, it reacted in panic & hit on the utterly stupid idea of placing an international quarantine around Hamas & Gaza. IT had NOTHING to do with rockets then. IT was just politics.

      the very essence of Hamas: genocidal slaughter of Israelis (and Jews around the world)

      Would you mind listing any of those genocidal holocausts Hamas has caused & tell us how many hundreds of thousands of Jews who’ve been killed as a result? What’s that? Ah yes, Peter will have trouble explaining why the alleged genocidal maniacs have suffered 100 times the deaths that the peace loving civilized Israelis have suffered during the current assault. And if you look back over the statistics over the years the numbers of Palestinians killed compared to Israelis has always been on the order of 6 or 10 to one. So much for genocidal slaughter.

      It’s that simple, folks.

      Beware of the pro-Israel Pied Pipers who tell you “it’s that simple.” Nothing is simple about the I-P conflict…except in the minds of the True Believers like Peter.

  8. Take it from a 13-year old kid in Gaza: Recognition can bring peace.

    The article entitled “Israel Rejects 48-Hour Cease-Fire Plan” (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/middleeast/01mideast.html) contains the following noteworthy passage:

    The Nakhala family, which lives next to the compound, was inspecting the damage on Tuesday morning and recounting the utter fear and panic they all felt as the missiles hit.

    “We have no shelters in Gaza,” said the father, Osama Nakhala. “Where shall we go? I also have to worry about my mother, who is 80 years old and paralyzed.”

    His 13-year-old son, Yousef, was with him. When asked his view of the situation, Yousef took an unusual stand for someone in Gaza, where Israel is being cursed by most everyone. “I blame Hamas. It doesn’t want to recognize Israel. If they did so there could be peace,” he said. “Egypt made a peace treaty with Israel, and nothing is happening to them.”

    1. @Peter: I do so enjoy people who use anecdotes based on a single individual story to attempt to prove that 1.5 million people now hate Hamas and blame it for their misery. Undoubtedly, there are some Gazans who believe this. But for everyone that does there will be 1,000 who blame Israel unreservedly & unremittingly. Of course Hamas is to blame for their suffering. But Israel is FAR more to blame.

  9. Those facts are plains lies, and you must know it. The rockets started about 2001, intensified in 2003. The highest number of rockets is years 2006 and 2007, with 2005 not far behind. Thats about 900 rockets per year.Why dont you go to Sderot and find out?
    So what problem do you have exactly with todays opinion piece, by someone who finally tells the tryuth: the moslems hate non-Moslems, and will never make peace with Jews, because they are too low to speak with. Of course you belive the world is just a wonderful place where all love one another. But you live in relative peace, not among those who preach hatred of you and your readers.
    Interssting how you must mention, (guilt?) of of how Jews may have committed “horrible crimes” prior to the Holocause. I hadnt realized we caused that too. Just brought it on ourselves, because we are evil . Very evil.

    1. someone who finally tells the tryuth: the moslems hate non-Moslems, and will never make peace with Jews, because they are too low to speak with

      This is what Israel has blessed the Jewish people with: Jewish racists like Gmal who know all they need to know about Islam, which can be contained in a thimble, if that..

      you live in relative peace, not among those who preach hatred of you and your readers.

      I’d say you’re dead wrong considering a Pakistani American went on a rampage in our federation building and our community still managed to come out of it w/o the nasty views you have of Muslims. And if you think my readers and I haven’t experienced hatred you’ve got another thing coming. But the hatred I read from readers comes mostly from Jews.

  10. richard, (1) i will remind you that you are a member of the human race and of a tribe and as such ought to prioritize your moral outrage accordingly. (2) you will never find me defending wanton acts of terror as the absolute logical outcome of oppression. never. not by my tribe or any other. there are tolerable ways to use violence and there are preferable ways to practice non-violence. wanton acts of terror are not effective, are not humane, are not sanctioned under any circumstance. (3) you who decry torture ought to just as loudly decry terror. yet you “understand” it instead. this professor of the humanities and father, husband, grandfather, human being says to you – not acceptable my dear friend.

    1. Way back in my Hebrew school days I learned that the only way to attack a Greek solider atop an elephant was to get underneath it and stab it with a spear. Only problem? The elephant fell on you & killed you. Or if it didn’t fall upon you it would trample you in rage. Hence, suicide attack. Amazing what you pick up in Hebrew school.

      Admittedly, this was a suicide attack against a military target. But you can be damn sure Antiochus thought of these crazy Maccabees as the terrorists of his day. Not to mention the fact that I already mentioned that they weren’t above offing their Jewish brethren if they were (viewed as) corrupt priests or Hellenizers.

      We could be a bloodthirsty bunch even way back then, don’t you think?

  11. tzvee, what is the murder of 320 Palestinian children and over 1,000 Palestinians altogether (vast majority civilian) this past week but a massive wanton act of Terror? The seriously injured Palestinians of Gaza are in the thousands, scores have absolutely horrific injuries wrought by Israeli weapons. And what about Israel’s use of white phosphorus, which is a violation of international law? It’s hard for me to believe these are the acts of a civilized country.

    There is something so morally sickening about dressing up the perpetrators of this Gaza massacre as the victims. And I have some news for you tzvee: As hard as it is for you seemingly to understand or accept, the Palestinians are human beings who deserve to live in dignity and safety just as much as Israeli Jews do. Yes, human beings. Not sick dogs who according to you apparently deserve to be cordoned off, starved, shelled and gunned down (by weapons conveniently supplied by my country, the U.S., of course). For this is what Israel is doing. Actually nobody I know would treat any living creature the way Israel regularly treats the Palestinians. The level of utter soul-numbing dehumanization of the Palestinians implicit in your comments is just beyond belief. Racism barely begins to describe it.

  12. “If the BBC is to be believed, IDF soldiers are deliberately shooting women and children in Gaza. Their TV reporting from the scene today interviewed doctors in hospitals who asked the obvious rhetorical question as to why they have children patients with multiple small arms wounds. One child had two bullets in the head. In the head, … not fragments from large caliber weapons. These were small arms bullets.”

    Pat Lang http://turcopolier.typepad.com/

    Inevitably, there will be many more revelations in this vein in the days and weeks to come. They will not surprise viewers of Al Jazeera, which last night showed footage of a graveyard (!?) that had been shelled. What will credulous readers of the swill produced by the likes of Friedman, Goldberg and some of the commenters above make of them? What will the world make of them?

    Uri Avnery has it right: the war on Gaza is moral insanity. Those who condone it are guilty of the same.

    One can only hope that war crimes trials at the Hague await Israel’s current political and military leadership.

  13. tzvee wrote:

    “you will never find me defending wanton acts of terror as the absolute logical outcome of oppression. never. not by my tribe or any other. there are tolerable ways to use violence and there are preferable ways to practice non-violence.”

    Well I say that Israel’s siege of Gaza even BEFORE the most recent events preventing food and medical supplies being brought in and Israel’s murder of almost 1,000 people in Gaza, are wanton acts of terror. Israel’s dropping phosphorous bombs causing people to be severely mutilated, suffer internal injuries and have tissue torn from their flesh, I say is wanton terror.

  14. Richard Silverstein writes:

    “Would you mind listing any of those genocidal holocausts Hamas has caused & tell us how many hundreds of thousands of Jews who’ve been killed as a result? What’s that? Ah yes, Peter will have trouble explaining why the alleged genocidal maniacs have suffered 100 times the deaths that the peace loving civilized Israelis have suffered during the current assault. And if you look back over the statistics over the years the numbers of Palestinians killed compared to Israelis has always been on the order of 6 or 10 to one. So much for genocidal slaughter.”

    My response:

    Richard is applying an irrelevant metric. Far more German civilians, especially children, died in WWII than did American civilians (and children). Obviously that does not mean that Germany was morally in the right and the Allies morally wrong. Intention matters. Germany was the clear aggressor; if it had not committed acts of aggression, those German children would never have been killed. It is the same with the Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians have suffered more casualties than Israelis for several reasons. Israel builds bomb shelters and warning systems to protect its children (whom Hamas targets). Hamas uses human shields. Hamas’s intention is clear to anyone who reads its Charter. These rockets, even though largely ineffective to date, nevertheless terrorize, and in fact, left unchecked, they will become increasingly accurate and longer-range. There has already been evidence of this. If Hamas hadn’t shot over ten thousand rockets at southern Israeli civilian towns, the current military operation would not be taking place.

  15. Peter,

    The Allied attacks on German civilians during WWII were war crimes. The fact that the Allies were in the right and the Germans in the wrong does not alter this fact.

    1. Aspects of Jewish history that you admire are facts. But those which aren’t as convenient are “nonsensical legends?” Jews have engaged in acts of terrorism (as defined by their enemies) over the ages. You claimed we haven’t done so. You are wrong.

      And I also forgot the incident of the Polish Jew (Grynshpahn?) who assassinated a Nazi official in Paris which led to Kristallnacht. Terrorism? If you were a Nazi German certainly. If you were/are a Jew? Certainly not. In fact, it’s an act of utmost heroism & moral courage. Depends whose ox is being gored, doesn’t it?

      You’ve dismissed the argument w/o disproving the facts or arguing more persuasive ones. Is that the way you formulate yr arguments when writing an academic paper? If so, it’s a wonder you’re published anywhere.

  16. Tzvee, while I agree that the elephant example was not a very clever one, I think you yourself don’t come across as a serious person with your insistence that Jews were not involved in terror (or was it “wanton pointless terror”? I guess that’ll need a definition)
    Of course Jews were involved in terror and you should know it. Even if we ignore the terror groups cum militias like Etzel and Lehi (and even Hagana), Jews were well – some say too well – represented in some of the most murderous movements of the twentieth century. But maybe the Jewish commissars responsible for forced starvation of millions of Ukranian peasants during Holodomor did not engage in “wanton pointless terror” in your book…

  17. Here’s some wanton acts of terror. Israeli forces bomb cemetery in Gaza. Yeah one never knows. Israel had to do this in “self-defense,” lest the dead rise up and launch terror attacks on Israel. Then there are the phosphorus bombs that Israel has been dropping causing horrible carnage. Check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oXFRTXi2tk

  18. ok let me add that in addition to selectively citing legends as if they are facts (is anything you say factual?) – you also like to personally attack your adversary. i am duly insulted. and why is it that you see the need to attack your fellow Jew here on the blog or out there in the world of current events? would that anyone cares.

    1. You claim I “selectively” cite legends, when you’ve only disputed one so-called legend I cited. You never even addressed the other historical events which I cited. Are they selective too? If so, how many should I cite before you concede I’m not being “selective” and that Jews have been just as inclined to do things that their enemies might describe as terrorism as any Palestinian might do?

      Can you find any source that disproves the story I told? I learned it as fact. If it isn’t, instead of calling it nonsense why don’t you explain why you think it is & maybe even prove it? And even if it is, which I’m not prepared to concede, one disproved item does not disprove the other citings & my overall pt.

      As to why I’m harsh, I’m not partial to anyone no matter who they are who believes Gazans are little more than animals and worthy of being hunted down by the IDF simply because of the political choices they’ve made of which you disapprove. I make the arguments personal because there’s life & death at stake. It’s not simply an intellectual exercise. Making it personal brings it home more dramatically.

  19. Last time I checked the Zionists used terror during early 1900s to establish the Jewish State.

    Last time I checked Zionist terrorism caused people to flee their homes in fear that they’d be their next victims.

    tvzee is a professor of something? I guess he’s Israeli right? That explains it.

    What a disgusting country.

    1. tvzee is a professor of something? I guess he’s Israeli right? That explains it.

      What a disgusting country.

      Unfair. I believe Tzvee is either American or Israeli-American. It’s not fair to pin a label on him simply because he’s Israeli. There are Israelis who are aghast at what’s being done in their name. I wish Tzvee were one of them. But he’s not. Being Israeli isn’t the problem though.

  20. Wow, just checked his blog.

    “Is So and So Jewish”

    “Is So and So Jewish”

    That’s all you have to write about? What a clown.

  21. You’re right. It’s not fair.

    But most Israelis are happy about the Gaza attacks.

    For them, history always begins when Hamas or whoever attacks them. They don’t factor in the occupation or the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians and the daily abuse/etc.

    Who are we kidding? Nothing is going to save the Palestinians. They’re going to be wiped out like the Native Americans.

  22. LD wrote: “Who are we kidding? Nothing is going to save the Palestinians. They’re going to be wiped out like the Native Americans.”

    I don’t think so. Their cause is the cause of many people throughout the Middle East. As I said before I expect Obama to make settling this dispute a top priority, but if this dispute isn’t settled soon, organizations like Al-Quaida will attract more people, and they will be in the Palestinian territories. I just want to add that while I was shocked and horrified by the 9/11 attacks, I was not surprised. One of the reasons that they occurred, was because of our government’s unconditional support of Israel and it’s occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

  23. Keep telling yourself that.

    The fact that Israel had to kill 1000 Palestinians and wound another 5000 in 2 weeks to get people to even SLIGHTLY criticize them is quite telling.

    This recent atrocity is nothing. It’s business as usual.

    We’re building permanent bases all throughout the ME. We’re gearing up for a war with Iran.

    Obama believes Israel should get all of Jerusalem. He has surrounded himself with Zionist hawks.

    Nothing is going to change.

    Furthermore, no one will do anything about it. The Arab people are subjugated by their corrupt dictators. Corrupt dictators that WE keep in power.

    The abject racism that has been facilitated by Jewish intellectuals, Neocons, ignorant pundits, etc. has degraded the collective sensibilities of the American public.

    We don’t even vote based on issues. We vote based on personality.

    Our country is turning into a freakshow LIKE Israel. Where everyone is paranoid and racist. Everyone hates Arabs and Muslims.

    Even though there are 1 billion Arabs and 1.8 billion Muslims.

    In a country where the Jewish perspective is deeply ingrained in our culture and so-called News, there is ZERO hope for a fair, reasoned analysis of the ME or the Arab world.

    The stereo-typing of Arabs and Islam as ‘evil’ versus the stereo-typing of Jews and Judaism as either victims or in it’s newest phase, heroes (Defiance).

    People talk about how Obama being elected is a victory against racism. But thats not it AT ALL.

    We – as a society – have just become socialized to accept blacks now. Same goes for Jews. We express overt racism against Arabs. Overt prejudice against Asians.

    People still think Zionism or this concept of a Jewish State is just fine. No one gets that Israelis want to MAINTAIN a Jewish majority. Hence, all the settlements and the indiscriminate violence against the Palestinians.

    Richard is a faux liberal like most of American Jewry. You say you care about these principles and morals but you’re like everyone else who shows complete bias for your ‘group’ – whether youre American or Jew or whatever.

    I’m Indian btw. I don’t know much about India but I’m open to criticism based on PRINCIPLE not on ‘identity’ politics.

    You can’t recognize the racial undertones to this conflict. You want to say its about religion and terrorism? What a load of bullshit.

    What the fuck do you expect Hamas to do? All these decades of occupation and abuse? Israel is the fourth strongest army in the world! Hamas’s reaction is out of desperation. And the antisemitism expressed by Palestinians is not due to irrational hatred. Its based on their daily experiences WITH JEWS. The end result – antisemitism, is irrational. But the CAUSE is not. I’d hate Jews too if all I ever had to pass through checkpoints/curfews/watch my home demolished/watch my family and friends killed without remorse/treated like an animal/etc.

  24. LD, I understand your frustration and moral outrage with what the self-described ‘Jewish state’ is doing to the Palestinians with the thumbs up of our government and the pathetic acquiescence of most Americans; and it’s true that it is difficult to criticize Israel in any sort of mainstream venue in our country.

    However, your take on Richard is so off-base I don’t even know how to respond. Do you actually read what he writes? It has to be clear to any discerning, thoughtful person, Richard’s sympathy and feeling for the viciously persecuted Palestinians and the Arab and Muslim world generally, and his moral outrage at what Israel is doing. It’s true that Richard doesn’t hide his Jewishness and his attachment to Jewish culture, nor should he. Maybe your understandable horror at Israel’s mindless slaughter of Palestinians, a country that does often say it speaks for the Jews, has clouded your judgement in this regard. But you’re way out to lunch concerning Richard. Try to learn to make distinctions between things when you think.

  25. LD wrote: “Who are we kidding? Nothing is going to save the Palestinians. They’re going to be wiped out like the Native Americans.”

    You may be unfamiliar with demographic trends. Far from being “ethnically cleansed,” the Palestinian Arab population of Gaza (and the West Bank as well, for that matter) has been consistently and dramatically increasing ever since 1948. Indeed, Arab population in Palestine in general has been increasing ever since Jewish immigration began in significant numbers in the late 19th century.

    1. Far from being “ethnically cleansed,”

      700,000 Israeli Arabs left/were “cleansed” from Israel during the 1948 war. If they hadn’t been “persuaded” to leave those numbers would be even greater. There is no doubt that Israel makes living conditions for Palestinians so miserable esp. in Gaza that if they COULD leave they would.

  26. LD writes: “The fact that Israel had to kill 1000 Palestinians and wound another 5000 in 2 weeks to get people to even SLIGHTLY criticize them is quite telling.”

    The fact that Palestinians have killed about 1000 Israeli civilians by expressly targeting them by shooting rockets at schools, blowing up buses, night clubs, market places, restaurants, etc and wounding god-knows-how-many-more is apparently not enough to get SOME readers of this blog to criticize them AT ALL – let alone slightly. That is also very telling.

  27. Peter, how many Palestinians has Israel killed in the same time period? So far, just over 5000.

    Israel has killed 1000+ (definitely over 1000 now) in the same time period your statistic covers.

    Your statistic is the total number of civilian casualties since the beginning of the Second Intifada.

    You are right about my exageration of being ‘wiped out’. However, I do believe that the Palestinians will end up trapped in a bantustan-style apartheid system FOREVER.

    There’s a great article by Jeff Halper where he explains that Israel is turning the Palestinians into ‘warehouse people’.

    @Warren

    I apologize to you and Richard. I am giving Richard a hard time with my comments and it’s unfair. I am frustrated.

    This entire thing we’re doing in the middle east is wrong. It’s not about terror. If it was WE’D STOP SUPPORTING IT. We support the Saudi regime. We support Mubarek and the Jordanian regime. We support Uribe in Colombia. Etc. etc. etc.

    There is no moral center in any government. In any powerful government certainly.

    This is all about money and power. Just good ole’ fashioned conquest and I don’t think we can stop it.

    Israel has better weapons. That’s ALL.

  28. Dang. I meant to say :

    Israel has killed over 1000+ (definitely over 1000 now) CHILDREN since the beginning of the Second Intifada.

    So your statistic is correct but once again pales in comparison to the brutality of Israel.

    And the solution is SIMPLE. Give Palestinians their land back. Give them the West Bank and Gaza. Dismantle the settlements. Be FAIR. Stop colonizing their them. Stop treating them like animals.

    I know that’s hard. You’ve been taught that you’re superior because you have more money and guns.

  29. Tzvee said: Terror is not a response to oppression. The two have no connection whatsoever. Proof? When Jews were oppressed for millenia – they did not become wanton pointless terrorists.

    Firstly, the tactics of terror employed by Palestinians is hardly pointless. You may disagree with its use (as I do), but it is inaccurate to call it pointless.

    Secondly, does the author actually hold up the example of Europeans Jewish response to the Nazi thread as an example of how to deal with oppression. Sir, are you actually proud of this?

  30. @Richard
    “The elephant fell on you & killed you.”
    You may have picked this up wrong. According to a Torah Lab translation of The Scroll Of Antiochus:

    “Elazar was trying to kill the elephants, but he drowned in elephant dung. When they returned from battle they sought him and could not find him, until eventually they found that he had drowned in elephant dung.”

    Apparently one soldier died from elephant dung. Any any case, the books regarding Hannukah were not Divinely inspired and so were not included in the Hebrew Bible. The source for holiday Hannukah, the Gemara (Shabbat 21) never mentions such an incident.-certainly no “suicide attack.”

  31. Richard Silverstein writes:

    “700,000 Israeli Arabs left/were “cleansed” from Israel during the 1948 war.”

    My response:

    1. This “cleansing” would never have happened at all had it not been for the invasion of Israel (within the teeny borders set by the 1947 UN Partition Plan) of armed forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq, whose leaders were BOASTING joyfully of their plans to literally genocidally massacre all Palestinian Jews (the term “Palestinian” in those days referred to anyone living in Palestine – Arab, Christian, or Jewish). So if you want to talk about “ethnic cleansing” – this was the Arab leaders’ openly expressed intent. People who talk about Israel’s “ethnic cleansing” in 1948 seem to completely forget that the responsibility for this war falls on the Arabs, who were the aggressors. If they hadn’t invaded, there would have been no Palestinian Arab refugees.

    2. The Arab exodus from Palestine in 1948 was complicated. Many of the local Palestinian Arab businessmen, political leaders, intelligentsia, etc quietly slipped out of the country even before the outbreak of hostilities. There were cases of Jews trying to convince the local Arabs to remain, notably in Haifa. Those Arabs who were “encouraged” to leave were feared, sometimes with good reason, to pose an existential threat, since they were harboring and aiding Arab armed forces who had a stranglehold on the road to Jerusalem, where the Jewish community there was totally besieged.

    3. An equal or likely greater number (I’ve heard estimates in the 700,000 – 800,000 range) of Jews were expelled immediately after the war by Arab countries: notably Iraq, Yemen, and Morroco, but really all the Arab countries, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, … right down the line. These were Jews who had absolutely nothing to do with the 1948 fighting. They were minding their own business living their civilian lives, and suddenly their property and life savings were confiscated and they were forced to flee.

    Why is it that so few people who talk about the Palestinian refugees, don’t also talk about the Jewish refugees? They seem to have nothing to say about the ethnic cleansing of Jews. Why not? Shouldn’t some compensation for their losses be part of any comprehensive settlement of the conflict?

    1. This “cleansing” would never have happened at all had it not been for the invasion of Israel

      What rot. What you mean is that if the Arab states had accepted the UN partition plan that Israel would not have had an excuse to rid itself of significant portion of its Arab population as Ben Gurion would no doubt wish it could do (& did when he had the proper excuse). Besides, there was no strategic reason whatsoever to expel the Arabs. They posed no threat to Israel. They were not armed. They were quiescent. There isn’t a single recorded incident in which an Israeli Arab used violence against Israel in 1948. So blaming the Arab states for the expulsion is pathetic reasoning.

      Besides you have no idea how Israel would’ve treated its Arab population had the Arabs accepted it. They might still have found reason to emasculate, discriminate against or even expel it as they have done since 1948.

      The Arab exodus from Palestine in 1948 was complicated

      Ah yes, “complicated.” That’s the word you people use for any incident involving Israel which is a tad uncomfortable to explain to people who don’t have a natural set of pro-Israel sympathies.

      Those Arabs who were “encouraged” to leave were feared, sometimes with good reason, to pose an existential threat…

      “Feared” maybe. But feared justifiably, for any good reason? You say they posed an “existential threat” (interesting term–did they possess nuclear weapons like the Iranians hope to have?). Yet the only threat you can muster is that they sheltered Arab forces. Even if yr claim has any validity, how does sheltering someone pose an existential threat to Israel?

      quietly slipped out of the country

      “Slipped out of the country?” Really? Why don’t you provide a few examples.

      There were cases of Jews trying to convince the local Arabs to remain, notably in Haifa.

      You say there were “cases” and you name one. Yes, there may’ve been a few singular cases in which some local Zionist leader had a shred of conscience and understood how retaining Arab residents would work in Israel’s favor after the war ended. Those few certainly had some moral compass. But what about the rest?

      An equal or likely greater number (I’ve heard estimates in the 700,000 – 800,000 range) of Jews were expelled immediately after the war by Arab countries: notably Iraq, Yemen, and Morroco, but really all the Arab countries, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, … right down the line.

      This is either based on utter ignorance of the facts of willful lying. You’ve “heard” estimates. How did you hear them? From the tooth fairy whispering in your ear? Where do they come from? Do you have a CREDIBLE (not partisan pro Israel ideological) source? For example, Morrocco did NOT expel any Jews. On the contrary, the king begged Jews to stay. It was Zionist representatives who spread fear there through rumormongering about the dangers Jews there would face if they did NOT emigrate. Unfortunately, most Jews were convinced and left. But not for Israel. Most Jews went to France and other Francophone countries. And if your claims about Morrocco are so bogus we can’t believe your claims about any of the other countries.

      No one is claiming that life for Jews in Arab lands was a bowl of cherries. But it turned out to be a helluva lot better than it was for the Jews of Europe. There were never massacres of Jews in Arab lands. Inequality? Yes. But Jew-hatred on the scale of the Crusades, Inquisition or Holocaust? Never.

      There was no ethnic cleansing of Jews. Do provide us the least bit of credible evidence.

  32. The Arab ethnic cleansing by ISRAEL is not complicated.

    Read Benny Morris’s essay on this during the 80s. Read Christopher Hitchen’s essay on this during the 80s.

    BOTH cite the declassified IDF report that quantifies the reasons for the exodus.

    The old claim of Arab radios was debunked. The reasons, as stated in the IDF report was due to JEWISH TERRORISM and that fear instilled into the Arabs.

    They were driven from their homes.

    This is only complicated for Zionist apologists just as it is ‘complicated’ for Nazis to accept the Holocaust.

    People don’t like the truth when it reveals them or their cause to be a farce, a charade, etc.

  33. @Peter and Richard

    “There isn’t a single recorded incident in which an Israeli Arab used violence against Israel in 1948.”
    Not true according to the Israeli high school matriculation program. Arabs were planting bombs even before ’48. I have eleven such classes digitally recorded and can send them.

    “But what about the rest?”
    It is a known fact that Moshe Dayan used the IDF to block Arabs from leaving Israel. Dayan had a good relationship with the Arabs and knew Arabic fluently. He related this in the A&E biography about his life.

    “Do you have a CREDIBLE (not partisan pro Israel ideological) source?”
    There is a documentary called the Forgotten Refugees in which it discusses just this issue-the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries. According to the film, the yellow patch that Nazis forced Jews to wear came from Muslim countries in the 8th century-Jews and Christians were made to wear them. Jews were considered “10th class citizens”-Dhimmi. It says “They would pull babies apart from their limbs until they broke. They would rape women and daughters in front of the families.” “My mother had to run through roof tops to escape the mob that was out to kill many of the Jews in her neighborhood.”

    “On the contrary, the king begged Jews to stay”
    The Insight Guide on Morocco (not about Jews mind you) relates that Jews were nailed to the doors of their houses during one period of Moroccan history.

    “And if your claims about Morocco are so bogus we can’t believe your claims about any of the other countries.”
    The documentary mentioned above systematically refutes this statement.

    “It was Zionist representatives who spread fear there through rumor mongering about the dangers Jews there would face if they did NOT emigrate.”
    Haj Amin al Husseini said “Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them.” Jews around the Middle East felt this and were alerted. The documentary relates “When I witnessed the persecution…within the city within the country of Iraq, I came to the decision-my parents also-that country wasn’t our country and we had to leave!”

    “There were never massacres of Jews in Arab lands. Inequality?”
    According to Forgotten Refugees, in 1912 there was a massacre of several hundred Jews in Fez-it was because of this incident that Jews were forced to live tightly together.

    “There was no ethnic cleansing of Jews. Do provide us the least bit of credible evidence.”
    The Jews of Egypt and other Arab countries left EVERYTHING-their businesses and land (and in Morocco). The Egyptian government stamped on the passports of Jews “one-way-don’t come back.” In Libya, the community was emptied completely-“cleansed.” The documentary says “all told nearly 1 million Jews fled Arab countries and Iran and hundreds of Jewish communities have been ethnically cleansed…”

    In addition, 500,000 people attended the public hangings of Jews in Baghdad by Saddam Hussein. After the six-day way there were concentration camps in Egypt called Abu Zaba-they were beaten and tortured. The UN has established resolutions concerning Arab refugees but not one mentions Jews of Arab countries. According to Prosessor Maurice Roumani, here are the figures of the Jewish population then and now (1944/2004)
    Morocco-265,000/5,000
    Tunisia-105,000/1,500
    Iran-100,000/20,000
    Syria-30,000/150
    Lebanon-38,000/20

  34. I am not sure what Israel has done to help foster Palestinian support in Fatah, other than give them no other options. As for USA, George W. Bush (as well as Bill Clinton) has worked closely with Mahammad Dahlan (coercive leader within Fatah in charge of ‘preventive security’ and then head of national security advisor for Abbas) and Bush authorized money, training, and weapons for Fatah. Perhaps this is the real reason for the cease-fire, right after Bush’s official farewell speech in the capitol- the funding for this conflict against Hamas is in limbo.

    I don’t believe that the fundamental problem is which government the Palestinian people support, but more about which government supports them. We are so concerned about everyone acknowledging and accepting the Jewish national identity, that they are not discriminated against and that no violence be used against them. I support all of this, and because the Palestinians are just as human, I support the same for them. I don’t necessarily agree with a two state solution though. The Palestinians have been paying for the sins of their fathers, by being treated as subhuman with no citizenship without discretion. The people that came with the territory that Israel took over, were not included as part of the country- building rights, jobs, movement, things like sanitary, electrical, and other basic provisions are at the whim of Israel, the country that the Palestinians are technically part of geographically but not politically, economically, socially, or really in anyway. The Palestinians can not even cross into ‘Israel’ of which they are apart of, without the risk that some checkpoint soldier will decide to keep their papers and deny them their face and name. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? No, they are not supposed to elect terroristic organizations, but people are supposed to treat people as human beings as well.

    Both sides have a lot in common, unfortunately one of the things is that they both believe they are superior. The problem here is racism. There can not be any second class citizens to get past this. There needs to be greater exposure and associations among peoples, truth, and education. There is not going to be a easy solution or benefits to any government (Middle East, USA, or else where) anytime soon with this path, but we’ve been going down the Machiavellian/ ends justify the means path for 6,000 years with not a whole lot of progress or protection of life. Its time to go with principles and not short-term gains.

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