38 thoughts on “Gideon Levy: ‘IDF an Army That Kills Children’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. I did provide a link to the offending post. I just advised my readers not to click on it.

    As for calling me churlish, I’ll let all those commenters to whom you condescended decide who the churlish one is.

  2. What, no threat to sue me, Dave? I’m disappointed. It seems every time you darken the doors of this blog you have some other threat or form of intimidation to wave at me. I’m disappointed in you.

    BTW, you advised your readers not to visit my site & give me traffic, but violated your own advice. Not very consistent of you. But I guess ‘consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds’ as far as you’re concerned. But in yr case, I’m sorry to say, the reverse is true: inconsitency is the hobgoblin of a certain little mind…

    My uninformed readers should know that there seems to be some sort of weird ritual with Dave. He’s got an inexplicable urge to tell all of his uber-Israel friends what a VERY BAD person I am. And he’ll tell you here forty times in the next day or so if I’d let him. Dave–you know how this goes. You express yr logorrheic hatred of me in endless spew until I ban you. Then you go whining about how I censor people who don’t agree with me and–did I not say this–what a VERY BAD person I am. And did I add that I’m anti-Israel (I’m not)?? Did I get that right, Dave?? After venting like this, he nurses his grudge for another yr till the urge gets too much for him and he erupts again. Not a pretty sight.

  3. The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
    — The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

    That’s our problem. We can’t change what’s happened, what now lies in the past. We can condemn. We can grieve. We can curse these crimes and those who perpetrate them as much and as often as we like. And we can all see the Writing on the Wall but, unless we are prepared to do a little of that Writing ourselves, our position as mere critics, helpless in the face of circumstance, may well be all we can aspire to.

    For quite some time – maybe a couple of years now – I’ve been using an old desktop computer in what, for want of a better word, I’ll call my study. My access to the internet however has always been via the family computer downstairs. With up to three of my children in the house at any one time, I’ve usually had to defer to their internet needs over my own. Well, they’re all much bigger than me! There have been many times when I’ve tried to link to the web via the older computer but somehow it’s never happened. Dongles, wireless, ethernet card, cable connection, they never seemed to work. Yesterday I discovered there was a new device on the market and went out and bought it. Very expensive but simple to install. Uses an entirely different approach with virtually no setting-up procedure whatsoever. Plugged in and connected almost immediately. After such a length of time, it really is great to have full use of the internet any time of the day or night. Indeed, I am using the device in this very communication.

    In some ways, I can see in this a parallel with all the years of futile searching for an exit route from out this Israeli/Palestinian quagmire. We will get nowhere with the present crop of modifications and add-ons that are proving as useless now as they have in the past. It’s as though physicians were trying to cure a very sick patient where the only treatment available is still that of bloodletting, a remedy of last resort if ever there was one. Although, of late, leeches have regained a more favourable standing in the medical fraternity, their use is highly specific and deemed worthless, even detrimental, outside a very narrow range of application. Today’s ascending star in curative medicine is nanotechnology’s so-called ‘magic bullet’ with its more exact focusing on the underlying causes of a disease.

    So what’s new in the market for the Palestian/Israeli condition? Where’s that ‘magic bullet’ when you need it?

    If it’s at http://yorketowers.blogspot.com then I hereby lay claim to whatever royalties might accrue. Just how much do you get for decommissioning a war? Must be quite a tidy sum considering how much these things cost in the first place.

    Naturally I’ll share the royalties with you, Richard. I provide the bullet; you provide the gun. Some nice symbolism in that, don’t you think?

    The present Writing on the Wall seems to me very much in need of a rewrite – and soon if we are to prevent the deaths of any more children, Arab or Jew.

  4. Here’s an assignment for you…how about you take some time to post about this:

    Sorry Dave, I don’t take assignments from you. YOU have yr own blog. You write about it. I’d rather write about Rabbi Yoffie’s speech encouraging tolerance between jews & Muslims which I’ll do later tonight. And I do so love it when right wingers tell me what I should write about. As if my agenda & priorities should be their own.

    People think you are anti-Israel for a reason. Until you show otherwise, you will also be labelled thus.

    I’ll tell you what the reason is: they’re right wing nationalist ideologues like you & the Jewlicious crowd. You’d call Mother Teresa anti-Israel if she fed a meal to a poor Palestinian. That’s just the kinda guy you are. I don’t have to prove my Zionist bona fides to anyone, least of all you. You call me anti-Israel you are a LIAR and a despicable one at that.

    Can I infer you’ve given up on the idea of suing me? I was so looking forward to facing you in court.

  5. What a mentsch you are to ignore rockets being fired at schools! Tikkun Olam indeed.

    As for your sophomoric statement that I’d call Mother Teresa anti-Israel if she fed a meal to a poor Palestinian, I am now convinced you have no idea how ridiculous you sound. Anyone with half a brain can see I am not anti-palestinian, but rather anti-terrorist. Just like they can see you are anti-Israel.

    As for suing you, I’ll repeat what I told you last time. I am short on time since my wife is about to give birth. That is more important to me than chasing after an insignificant person like you. But if I ever get some time and determine it is worth it, I’ll consider it. The fact that you are begging for the attention is definitely something that makes me less inclined to do it.

  6. The fact that you are begging for the attention is definitely something that makes me less inclined to do it.

    You’re nothing but a two-bit testosterone driven (that’s David Abitbol’s characterization of his brawling blog style but fits you like a glove) cyber bully. You threaten me with a lawsuit for calling you a racist but it’s all bluff and swagger. Talk about ridiculous, you’re all talk.

    You’re not anti-Palestinian?? Pls. provide a quote from anything you’ve written that is sympathetic to Palestinian interests, national rights or aspirations. Really. I want to read it if you’ve ever written it. And do give us a quote from anything you’ve ever written that was cricial of the Occupation, settlements or that advocated compromise by Israel to achieve peace with the Palestinians.

    You call yrself “pro-Israel” but it’s blowhard propagandists like you that only push Israel into the Big Muddy that Pete Seeger sang about. Yr views of the conflict are anti-Israel. You profess love for Israel but yr prescriptions mean endless war, endless hatred, endless bloodshed. That’s not pro-Israel. That’s self-destruction.

  7. I tell you I am busy with personal matters and may not sue and you get your panties in a bunch? Wow, you really ARE desperate for the attention.

    As for your call for me to prove I am not anti-palestinian:
    1. The onus is on you to prove I am anti-palestinian, not the other way around.
    2. Nothing I have written is against the ordinary palestinian, only terrorists. So good luck finding something.
    3. When people (correctly) accuse you of being anti-Israel and ask you to prove otherwise, you refuse. So don’t apply a double standard to me

    Calling me names does not change the fact that you have never responded to the substance of any assertions I make, and merely launch ad hominem attacks against me and anyone who disagrees with you. You are not the victim; you are the bully, albeit a not very intimidating one at that.

  8. Gideon Levi might as well have taken out a full page add in the NY Times and written “Great job, Hamas. You keep using Palestinian children as human shields and I’ll keep weakening Israeli resolve with cheap propaganda until all our goals are met.”

  9. Hamas. You keep using Palestinian children as human shields

    This is both a lie and cheap propaganda. These three dead children were not “human shields.” They had nothing to do with Hamas. Stop using the odious term “human shields” unless you are speaking about a real physical situation in which civilians are forced into a combat situtation against their will, which is the proper usage of the term. I won’t allow it to be abused to assist in cheap pro-IDF propaganda. You’ll also note that Levy says the general claim that Hamas exploits children to fire rocket launchers has never been proven. So please do prove it to us if you have any.

    Why does a column by a distinguished Israeli journalist who mourns the massacare of three innocent Palestinian children killed by an IDF blunder get characterized as “cheap propaganda?” One man’s propaganda is another million people’s eloquence.

  10. The fact that they fire kassams from near peoples houses and from inside villages makes the village and its people a human shield. I have never seen air videos of kassams being fired from one house while kids at the same time were playing right around the corner. The Hamas, at the very least, can put an end to this (not to mention all kassam shooting). The fact that children are playing near a rocket launcher is enough proof that the rocket launcher was fired from the vicinity of children. That’s what I call being used as human shields. And Gideon Levy is saying that Israel should encourage the Hamas to use civilians as human shield because he is saying that merely the possibility that children may be hurt in a strike against Kassams is enough to prevent the strike against the kassams. In other words Gideon Levy is saying to the Hamas, if you fire Kassam rockets from an open field, well we might try to snuff you out. But if you fire Kassams from a school playground, we’re going to hold our fire. Where do you think the Hamas (ot Islamic Jihad) will want to fire the Kassams from?
    Now imagine an alternate universe where the entire world including the US, EU, UN, quartet, Arab league etc actually condem the Palestinians for firing kassams from residential areas, or near residential areas and explain that as long as they allow this to happen (not to mention firing Kassams at all) they will continue to be regarded as a terrorist and illegitemate entity, and thus will continue to be boycotted, this may actually have some effect, instead of what they get from this universe which is encouragemnent from Gideon levy and Haaretz.

  11. You clearly have an incorrect concept of a human shields if you claim the children weren’t used in such a way. They needn’t have anything to do with Hamas to be a human shield, which encompasses the notion of being forced by the terrorists to take up a position as a likely military target. This is what even you acknowledged in your previous comment:

    “Besides, if men with guns come and place a rocket launcher in the vicinity of your house what would you do? Argue w. them?”

    Not only that, but even palestinians blame the terrorists:

    A member of the Abu Ghazallah family who witnessed the airstrike said a rocket launcher was near the area where the children were playing. The relative, who declined to be named for fear of reprisal, said the launcher belonged to Islamic Jihad, an armed movement responsible for much of the rocket fire into Israel.

    “I hold the Islamic Jihad responsible for the killing of these children,” the relative said.

  12. the notion of being forced by the terrorists to take up a position as a likely military target.

    The children weren’t forced to do anything. The rocket launcher was placed in the vicinity of their home. And even now we don’t know how near or far fr. their home it was. I don’t support the placing of rocket launchers anywhere let alone in a residential area. But the notion that these children were human shields in any way shape or form is bogus as almost everything you say is.

    The truth is that while Islamic Jihad may be culpable in their killing for placing the launcher where it did, the IDF actually killed them. There is no question where the weight of blame lies.

  13. Whoops. Big typographical error. that should read:

    I have even seen air videos of kassams being fired from one house while kids at the same time were playing right around the corner.

  14. definition of human shield from wikipedia

    Human shield is a military and political term describing the presence of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets. It may also be used to describe the use of civilians to literally shield combatants during attacks, by forcing the civilians to march in front of the soldiers during human wave attacks. Using this technique increases the civilian casualty rate and is illegal in any nation that is party to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

    Hamas provides the human shield – Haaretz is trying to provide the deterence through his propaganda. They make a perfect team.

  15. The fact that they fire kassams from near peoples houses and from inside villages makes the village and its people a human shield.

    NO. That is IDF propaganda and not an acceptable use of the term. Insurgents throughout human history have fought in the same way from within their own communities. No one ever said the IDF got to fight wars on its terms with pitched battles in open zones free of civilians.

    The fact that children are playing near a rocket launcher is enough proof that the rocket launcher was fired from the vicinity of children.

    I have not read anywhere that the rocket launcher was fired.

    Gideon Levy is saying that Israel should encourage the Hamas to use civilians as human shield because he is saying that merely the possibility that children may be hurt in a strike against Kassams is enough to prevent the strike against the kassams.

    No. You are mischaracterizing his words. YOU are saying that’s what he’s saying. Don’t put words in his mouth. The IDF hasn’t even proven that children have been used in this way & yet you claim Levy is doing something no one has yet proven they have done. Further, because Levy is opposed to killing Palestinian children he somehow becomes an adviser to Hamas on its terror tactics. I think that is odious & you should be ashamed for going into such territory.

    imagine an alternate universe where the entire world…condem the Palestinians for firing kassams from residential areas…and explain that as long as they allow this to happen…they will continue to be regarded as a terrorist and illegitemate entity, and thus will continue to be boycotted, this may actually have some effect…

    Hey, I’m all in favor as long as you’re willing to have the same world bodies condemn Israel for its violations of international law, targeted assassinations, killing of civilians, and state terror against Lebanon. Let’s condemn both sides. But no, for you there is only one side at fault. That’s what renders yr analysis so lacking in credibility.

  16. “Hey, I’m all in favor as long as you’re willing to have the same world bodies condemn Israel ”

    Geez, that never happens.

  17. No one ever said the IDF got to fight wars on its terms with pitched battles in open zones free of civilians.

    Fine. But I expect Israel to defend itself and the children of Sderot. The Palestinians can choose the terms of the war but they then bear the responsibility for the civilian casualities.

  18. Hamas provides the human shield – Haaretz is trying to provide the deterence through his propaganda. They make a perfect team.

    I have never come close to banning you from commenting here. But this passage comes dangerously close to the line for me. I will not allow you to describe Haaretz in this way. It is simply a lie. I will not tolerate it. Saying that Haaretz aids and abets terrorism is absolutely pasul here. Do it again & you’ll go the way of some odious individuals who preached lies and propaganda preceding you.

    Why do you think Islamic Jihad would put a rocket launcher near someones home?

    Have you ever been to Beit Hanun? Have you ever seen pictures of the place? Just how much open space do you think there is there? We’re talking about one of the most densely populated places on earth here in talking about Gaza. This isn’t like Lebanon where Hezbollah can dig trenches and create firing positions in hills, etc. I’d guess that just about anywhere you’d place a rocket launcher would be near someone’s home.

  19. “The children weren’t forced to do anything.”

    But you even acknowledged that the parents were.

    But the notion that these children were human shields in any way shape or form is bogus as almost everything you say is.

    Once again, you can’t resist the ad hominem attack. But it doesn’t change the fact that you are 100% wrong.

    The truth is that while Islamic Jihad may be culpable in their killing for placing the launcher where it did, the IDF actually killed them. There is no question where the weight of blame lies.

    So you know better than the palestinian who blame the terrorists. But of course you do.

  20. Human shield is a military and political term describing the presence of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets.

    This is a definition used by the hasbara crowd to define any militant group that fights against Israel. I don’t accept this portion of the Wikipedia entry as valid. There are plenty of ways to more accurately describe this tactic than the misnomer “human shield.” Nor do I always see every Wikipedia entry as definitive in its field. I do accept the definitions which follow the one I dispute.

  21. The Palestinians can choose the terms of the war but they then bear the responsibility for the civilian casualities.

    Not quite. If the IDF kills ’em, it’s their responsibility. Islamic Jihad put the launchers there but didn’t fire the rocket that killed the kids. The IDF did that. On a scale of culpability, IJ is certainly culpable, but has nowhere near the level of responsibility as the blundering IDF.

    And yes, the IDF has a right to protect Sderot. But has no right to kill Palestinian children. Finally, the IDF has failed miserably to protect the children of Sderot just as it failed miserably in almost every other military task with which it has been entrusted including the Lebanon war. These tactics just don’t work. What about negotiating a ceasefire directly with Hamas as Levy suggests? Better yet, what about final status talks bet. Olmert & Abbas NOW?

  22. BTW, I have never been to Beit Hanun but I have been to the Gaza strip as a soldier. There is plenty of space between the cities and the “refugee” camps to fire Kassams from. There is even more space now that the strip has been cleansed of its Jewish communities. Have you ever been to Beit Hanun or the Gaza strip?

  23. you even acknowledged that the parents were.

    No, I put forward a hypothesis. That’s different than my stating a fact. How would I know what happened in this particular case? I surmised what might have happened.

    you can’t resist the ad hominem attack.

    I guess they don’t teach rhetoric where you come from. Saying that almost everything you say is bogus is NOT an ad hominem attack. Go look it up. It may be hyperbole. But you’ll notice I left myself an out by saying “almost.” I did want to leave room for the possibility that once you may have said something that wasn’t blatant pro-IDF propaganda.

  24. The IDF’s policy is good, right and moral. According to the Haaretz article you linked to earlier

    IDF troops near the Gaza Strip are under orders to fire at rocket launchers only when terrorists approach them. The launchers themselves are easily replaceable and are of little value to the terrorist organizations, so the IDF prefers to target the terrorists who are directing the firing.

    . If they wait until after the rockets are launcjed then they place Israeli school children, who are the INTENDED target of these missiles at risk and they don’t hit the actuall terrorists who shoot the rockets from a distance. The best time to hit the launchers is while they are being loaded. That was the intention. Unfortunately the mission failed. It failed because the missile launchers weren’t hit and innocent bystanders were hit. You acknowledge Israel has a right to defend itself, yet you seem to think they have to achieve 100% mission success. There is no 100% success. You can rest assured that the IDF will study this case and try to improve in the future because they have no interest in allowing children to be killed.
    The Hamas/Islamic Jihad policy though is from the start immoral. Their mission is to kill Israeli children. That is what they seek to do. Today: Qassam rocket lands near Sderot day care center “Islamic Jihad: Rocket attacks are `gift for opening of school year` (Israel Radio)” And they do so placing there own children at great risk. Two years ago they killed someone from Bet hanoun who actually tried to stop them from launching missiles from near his home.
    Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3920181.stm
    It’s true that the IDF has failed in keeping Sderot safe, but the main reason for this is their RESTRAINT, because what Israel needs to do is engage in a major operation against the hamas and Islamic jihad. That’s what any normal country would do after so many attacks on its civilians.

    Better yet, what about final status talks bet. Olmert & Abbas NOW?

    Hoe exactly would that bring an end to attacks from Gaza by Hamas and islamic Jihad? If anything it would increase attacks.

    These tactics just don’t work. What about negotiating a ceasefire directly with Hamas as Levy suggests?

    Hamas controls the Gaza strip. Fatah the West Bank. Israel has withdrawn from the Gaza strip. What’s left for it to negotiate?

  25. Amazing:

    “amir said,

    September 3, 2007 @ 12:31 am

    “Hey, I’m all in favor as long as you’re willing to have the same world bodies condemn Israel ”

    Geez, that never happens.”

    Because of the benevolent hegemon, or because of what? Never?

  26. I’m all for a Palestinian State, and I don’t like right wingers in any country, but your emotional arguments don’t do your side any good Richard. I actually now lack confidence in your ability to see the situation objectively and in its complexity. I’ve run into quite a few shrill anti-israel people recently. The propoganda machines seems to be out in full force on all sides. Sorry to see you’re part of the problem rather than the solution. We need cool heads to make it out of this mess.

  27. ‘Because of the benevolent hegemon, or because of what? Never?’

    Hi LeaNder,

    As you know, the method Richard has frequently and kindly let me put forward here does require that very condemnation by all world bodies – or, at least, a representative sample thereof. Indeed, taken to its logical conclusion, this becomes a mandatory part of the whole process. Every nation on earth should be prepared to speak – and speak with one voice – on all such matters.

    ‘ No man is an island, entire unto itself…any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.’ (John Donne)

    Just what is a benevolent hegemon? It sounds absolutely wonderful.

  28. I’m all for a Palestinian State, and I don’t like right wingers in any country, but your emotional arguments don’t do your side any good Richard.

    First of all, this post contains an entire article by Gideon Levy, which you neglected to deal with at all. There is almost no opinion of mine in this post. Interesting you should choose to criticize me yet neglect the subject of the post. My “emotional” arguments are inspired by Palestinian children murdered at fairly regularly by the IDF. If you don’t like such emotion, then perhaps you’re not the target audience for this blog.

    I see the situation objectively. I know what both sides need to do to attain peace. My analysis can be as cool as it needs to be when it needs to be. But when children on either side are murdered coolness is not what is called for. I blame both sides for their various depredations. But what you’re really saying is I’m not sufficiently sympathetic to Israel, which is bogus. I criticize Israel a little too harshly for yr taste. Sorry, but I call ’em as I see ’em.

  29. you seem to think they have to achieve 100% mission success. There is no 100% success. You can rest assured that the IDF will study this case and try to improve in the future because they have no interest in allowing children to be killed.

    No, not 100% success. But the number of innocent civilians killed by IDF action is huge. I have absolutely no trust that the IDF will learn anything fr. their terrible blunder in this case. They almost never seem to learn fr. mistakes & hardly ever acknowledge any. I’m sure if they actually intended to review their procedures they would’ve said so by now so as to let the world know that they care about killing innocent children. Their silence is more revealing than your certainty that they will learn something. And btw, what will they learn? At the very least they should upgrade their surveillance capability so they can tell who they’re about to blow to bits & whether its a small child or full grown adult.

    the IDF has failed in keeping Sderot safe, but the main reason for this is their RESTRAINT, because what Israel needs to do is engage in a major operation against the hamas and Islamic jihad. That’s what any normal country would do after so many attacks on its civilians.

    You’re an intelligent person but the definition of insanity is someone trying the same behavior that failed previously without learning a single thing fr. their mistake. Now, I won’t say YOU are insane. But the IDF policy certainly verges on this. You had previous operations against Gaza to do precisely what you claim they need to do now. Remember Summer Rain?? Did that succeed? Of course it didn’t. But you know what: if you & the IDF want to continue in yr insane belief that what failed before will somehow now miraculously succeeed–gesund a heit. Go for it. It only further degrades Israel’s position on the world stage & further discredits its claim it is interested in peace.

    I’d argue that if such an operation would succeed or ever did succeed I might speak differently. But by the very nature of this war and all insurgent wars–there are no pure military solutions. And in this case there isn’t even a partial military solution since the IDF flat out is a failure.

    Israel has withdrawn from the Gaza strip. What’s left for it to negotiate?

    Spoken like a person who is much less intelligent than I believe you are. If you don’t know what there is to negotiate far be it fr. me to enlighten you. Be satisfied in yr blissful ignorance & certainty that Israel is doing the right thing (or would be doing the right thing if it only came down harder on the Palestinians).

  30. John, I shouldn’t be here and thus I haven’t been over at the Towers of Yorke for quite some time now. These exchanges are very interesting for me, since just as Flava, I have to admit that I once thought our dear Richard was far too impulsive & emotional, too easily angered by nitwits. I suggested more humor once, maybe had helpful PR approaches in mind. But now I start understand.

    As a German I am caught – from early on – in what feels like a net with no escape: the leaders and their sheep. Or the authoritarians and their followers.

    On my reading list in this respect: http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

    My response was based on the trigger phrase: “Geez, that never happens.” What utter hypris!
    And beneath my phrase: “Because of the benevolent hegemon, or because of what? Never?” I was reminded of something that would take to long to explain here. A very special private exchange with the Military Historian Marin van Creveld, whom I once defended against a rather vicious internet campaign against him. At least that was what it felt like, before closer inspection.

    In the end I realized that maybe his: No thank you, Israel can help herself, may well have triggered the huge wave of anger.

    Can help herself? Could it, tiny as it is, ever continue in its “UNRESTRAINED” ways – to modify another expression above, that catches my attention – survive without the support of the “benevolent hegemon”, who we are told only wants to bring freedom and democracy to the Middle East?

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/103-1185632-8904627?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Martin%20van%20Creveld

  31. Dear John,

    as I shouldn’t be here – so many urgent matters – I haven’t been over at your blog: The Towers of Yorke for quite some time now.

    http://yorketowers.blogspot.com/2007/04/can-it-really-be-beyond-compass-of.html

    And yes, I know your design fits perfectly well into Richards perspective, or mine for that matter.

    I simply had to react to what felt like utter hybris. You may realize that my reactions on a sentence like: “Geez, never will happen.” must necessarily be strong. As my reactions on the many repetitive occurrences of the word: RESTRAINT, as the main obstacle in the “Benevolent Hegemon’s” war against terror is. Who is bringing democracy to the ME.

    Don’t these people realize, how dangerous the larger scenario with the Hegemon securing it’s future resources and Israel delivering the mental software for the useful bias, the useful resentment of the Islamic world, who sits on 2/3 of the world’s oil is?

    http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/6376

    Flava, I felt exactly like you and noticed to my utter shame that it might be more easy to judge, if you are not the target and Richard for many reasons must be. I just tried to forward a longer note but got caught in the Spam-automation or defense shields of Richard’s software. Not that it matters much.

  32. You’re an intelligent person but the definition of insanity is someone trying the same behavior that failed previously without learning a single thing fr. their mistake.

    First of all thank you for the compliment. Of course many more Israelis and Palestians have been killed after peace negotiations such as the Oslo accords or the failed Camp David talks. Now, I am more interested in Israeli casualties than Palestinian ones as I see the role of the Israeli government and the IDF to protect Israelis even if it is at the expense of Palestinians (providing that it is Palestinians providing the threat. I don’t think Israel should bomb Palestinians in order to send a message to Asad for example). “Summer rain” ended 10 months ago. It would be interesting to see how many Israeli casualties there were in the 10 months following Summer Rain and the 10 months following Oslo or Camp David.
    Here is an example – Oslo II signed Sept 28 1995. By March 4 1996 over 60 Israelis dead in a series of suicide attacks.
    CampDavid Summit July 2000, Taba talks Jan 2001. By Oct 2001: Dolphinarium massacre, Sbarro massacre, Lynchings in Ramallah, Hadera car bomb attack, Minister of tourism assasinated.

    So who’s the one not learning from mistakes.

    [Just as an aside, I am in favor of a negotiated settlement]

  33. LeaNder,

    Thanks for the link – a very good site.

    Do I see where you’re going on this? Correct me if I’m wrong, LeaNder, but are you hoping for a more measured response in all these matters? Traditionally, in the gravest of situations, mankind has resorted to violence as its only way out. Humanity may indeed have within itself this admirable capacity for restraint but its primitive instincts in desperate moments can still dominate; those inbuilt tendencies towards ‘fight or flight,’ more often than not, carry the day. Extreme measures are the ones most likely to be adopted in extreme times; they do seem to surface when other options appear unable to stem the tide.

    Still, refraining from the more extreme forms of conflict and passive resistance have had their victories in the past although these have been few and far between. Certainly the moral case for these is much easier to establish. But, perhaps, only in a more perfect world could such a course of action come anywhere near fruition.

    I don’t think the arguments on this topic re IDF et al. help all that much. They may be quite valid in their own way but , guys, for all the good it’s doing, you might be better employed working out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    Broadly speaking, your core arguments seem to be these.

    Cet animal est tres mechant; With the blind leading the blind, we Quand on l’attaque il se defend. shouldn’t be too surprised if both
    fall into the ditch.

    Somewhere between the span of these two viewpoints there may exist a compromise strong enough to accomodate both. If there isn’t, then this discussion will never be at an end. Perhaps you get to continue it in the hereafter – although by then, I suspect, there won’t be much point.

    I really think we are expected to have worked out these things long before then.

  34. PS. The ‘core arguments’ section above didn’t come out quite as drafted. The french and the english components seem to have blended into each other. An unlikely event for so polarised a pair of viewpoints.

    Please therefore imagine them as separted by a central margin – might make much more sense that way.

  35. I am in favor of a negotiated settlement

    Yes, that seems to be the refrain of almost everyone here who takes me to task for my views. “I really am liberal. I really do oppose the Occupation. I really am in favor of a Palestinian state.” Just not now. You see, there’s no partner,” etc., etc.

    I have one question for you: if you’re in favor of it when do you propose this magical moment happen? And why not now? Because if you’re not telling your PM that now’s the time then you might as well stop telling me how reasonable a person you are. I’m only interested in someone who’s willing to put up or shut up on this question right now.

  36. I have never claimed to be a liberal (on these issues), against the “occupation” or in favor of (another) Palestinian state. As has been demonstrated, negotiations with Palestinians has led to catastrophic results, much worse than military operations against them. In spite of this I am not completely pessimistic so that I will not oppose a peace process with Abbas at this time.

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