19 thoughts on “Did Israel Kidnap Iranian General and Violate Turkish Sovereignty? – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. “But whatever shall we do when Iran kidnaps or murders an Israeli or U.S. diplomat or CIA or Mossad agent?”

    Oh, Iran would never do anything like that. Just ask Jimmy Carter.

  2. it would be nice to find out more about what we are doing to iran on the financial front, i am sure that story will surface sooner or later.
    modern economic warfare is designed to bring a nation to the point of confrontation or internal conflict. Before ww2 we saw what the economic boycotts did to germany, it made them more bellicose. I remember the war lord bibi netanyahu doing some work on that front in some north eastern state, i imagine he was busy in others as well. The perfect storm scenario envisioned by Hoenlein does seem to be a perfect analogy about the events surrounding the nation of israel.

  3. “But whatever shall we do when Iran kidnaps or murders an Israeli or U.S. diplomat or CIA or Mossad agent?”

    Iran, for example, would never invove itself with the bombing of an Israeli embassy in Argentina.

  4. Holding Ron Arad, Zvi Baumel (a US citizen) for over 20 years, as well as the more recent captives (Gilad Shalit, Eldad Regev, Ehud Goldwasser) by Iran is a violation of US and Israeli sovereignty. If this terrorist general was kidnapped, it would give Iran a taste of its own bitter medicine that it has dished out over the past 25 yrs

  5. Oh, Iran would never do anything like that. Just ask Jimmy Carter.

    Congratulations, that manages to combine a non sequitur AND snark in a single comment. Quite a feat.

    Iran, for example, would never invove itself with the bombing of an Israeli embassy in Argentina.

    And you don’t think I can quote a litany of heinous IDF actions against Palestinians like for example the hundreds of Palestinian civilians who’ve been killed in the past yr. by the IDF (in Gaza in particular) not to mention additional hundreds of Lebanese civilians killed in Lebanon.

    Admittedly, the Argentina bombings were heinous acts fully deserving of punishment. But let’s not pretend that there are not other Arab victims in this conflict equally innocent.

  6. Holding Ron Arad, Zvi Baumel (a US citizen) for over 20 years, as well as the more recent captives (Gilad Shalit, Eldad Regev, Ehud Goldwasser) by Iran

    I suppose in yr mind there is no diff. bet. Iran & Hezbollah. But for the rest of us there is. So the fact that Hezbollah kidnapped all of them & not Iran doesn’t allow us to blame Iran for crimes it has not committed. And how can you prove that Iran holds them? Or are you privy to Mossad/CIA secrets that we are not?

    And even if we stretch way out on a limb and say you’re correct do you really believe that revenge and tit for tat is a POLICY?? Let alone a policy that might lead to peace? Kidnapping an Iranian general merely because your own citizens have been kidnapped is about as strategically valid a plan as Israel’s prosecution of the Lebanon war and Operation Summer Rain–which is to say inept & blind.

  7. Most peoplle in intelligence see Hesbollah as an arm of the Iranian revolutionary guard. The entirety of their funding and arms comes from Iran. Without Iran, Hesbollah could not exist. What alternatives to force do you have to fighting Hesbollah, since we have nothing to offer them that they would accept- their minimal demands being the destruction of Israel. Also, why do you automatically assume the worst of the Mossad? These days, they couldnt find out what is printed in the Jerusalem Post, much less kidnap an Iranian general. The intelligence community believes that the Iranian general defected. I look forward to hearing what he knows.

  8. I don’t know who those first two guys are, but Shalit was captured near Gaza, presumably by some Palestinian group(s) that have nothing to do with Iran, not Hizb’allah. He and Regev and Goldwasser are soldiers, for crying out loud. They were captured and may be prisoners of war. It’s just rubbish to write of ‘kidnapping’. If you want to talk about people taken at gunpoint and held against their will without benefit of due process, Israeli gaols are full of such ‘administrative detainees’. And beyond kidnapping and illegally incarcerating thousands, Israel has its policy of ‘targeted assassination’, otherwise known as ‘extrajudicial execution’. But of course, they’re not Jewish, so they don’t count, their lives don’t count, and their families don’t count.

    Hizb’allah itself is a Lebanese organisation that thanks to Iranian largesse can provide services to poor Shi’ite Lebanese that the ‘moderate, democratically elected’ and utterly, systematically unrepresentative Lebanese government can;t or won’t provide. And it gives them the capacity to resist Israeli aggression more effectively than any other force, so far.

    Israel is a bought and paid for implement of US foreign policy, which unlike Iranian policy is entirely beneficent and altruistic. Meanwhile, I get emails every day appealing for charity to feed the 600,000 Israeli Jewish children who go to bed hungry, notwithstanding the billions the US taxpayers send every year.

  9. Most peoplle in intelligence see Hesbollah as an arm of the Iranian revolutionary guard

    “Most people” is an overstatement on yr part. How would you know what “most people” think on this subject? Militarily perhaps Hezbollah is closely afffiliated with Iran as it is with Syria.

    The entirety of their funding and arms comes from Iran.

    Again untrue. You’ve left out Syria. But in any case how would YOU know where the “entirety” of its funding & arms come from? Are you privy to intelligence information that we aren’t??

    Without Iran, Hesbollah could not exist.

    False again. Hezbollah existed before Iran supported it. If you’d said “Without Iran, Hezbollah could not exist in its PRESENT FORM, then I’d agree. But it is not dependent on Iran for its existence.

    What alternatives to force do you have to fighting Hesbollah, since we have nothing to offer them that they would accept- their minimal demands being the destruction of Israel.

    More tiresome propaganda. Their demands are clear and they are similar to the demands of the Lebanese government. Returning Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli prisons (many of whom are being held w. no trial or due process whatsoever) & returning Shebaa Farms.

    why do you automatically assume the worst of the Mossad?

    I assume the worst? If you’ve got a beef it’s with the hundreds of news outlets which have reported the story as I reported here in this blog. I didn’t make the story up.

    The intelligence community believes that the Iranian general defected. I look forward to hearing what he knows.

    You’re clearly an apologist for the “intelligence community,” in whose interest it would be to try to put people “off the scent” by claiming he defected. And if he defected it would easy enough to present proof of this which they haven’t done. Which means the general is either being “worked over” by intelligence agents as we speak or is dead.

  10. The United Nations certified Israels withdrawal from Lebanon. Shebaa farms was taken from Syria in 1967. Since Israel was not at war with Lebanon in 1967, how can Sheba farms be Lebanese. The prisoners that Israel holds have access to the Red Cross. In contrast, none of the prisoners held by Hesbollah have Red Cross access, nor do we know if they are alive. Assuming that you consider the prisoners held by Hesbollah and Hamas as POWs, then their rights as POWs are violated by Hezbollah and Hamas

  11. The issue isn’t who to return the territory to. The issue is returning the territory to someone. If Israel expresses a willingness to return the territory to either Syria or Lebanon, which it has not done, the issue would be resolved in the eyes of Hezbollah.

    I am in no way defending the capture of Israeli soldiers or the conditions under which they are held. But the easiest way to get them returned is to agree to return the Lebanese prisoners.

  12. Why should Israel release Kuntar? And other than Kuntar, please tell me how many Lebanese Israel is holding.

  13. Why should Israel release Kuntar? And other than Kuntar, please tell me how many Lebanese Israel is holding.

    It’s not for me to say whether Israel should release Kuntar or not. But if they try to hold onto him It will likely prevent a peace deal with Lebanon. It would make me sick to my stomach for Israel to release Yigal Amir from custody & make him a free man. But if someone came to me and said Israel could attain permanent peace if it did so, I’d free Amir in return for that.

    No one said peace is going to be easy. You may believe that peace is too high a price to pay for freeing a cold-blooded killer like Kuntar. That’s a valid position as long as you’re willing to accept continued kidnapping & killing on both sides of the border. Personally, I’m not willing to accept perpetual bloodshed in return for absolute justice for Kuntar as horrified as I am by his crimes.

    other than Kuntar, please tell me how many Lebanese Israel is holding.

    Is it my job to do your research for you? You can easily type that question into a Google search & find the answer. I am not yr reseacher.

  14. I thought since your advocating release of the Lebanese prisoners you might know something about them.
    I know of two. Kuntar – who was not sent by Lebanon, and murdered Israeli civilians on Israeli territory. Another man, who happens to be an Israeli citizen (according to a report I saw once by Ehud Ya’Ari on tv and have not found on the internet). A third man Israel claims it is not holding I have no reason to believe Hizballah and bot Israel. To actually believe that the only barrier to peace is the release of these men and the phony demand for Har Dov is extremely naive. But, it’s your right to believe that.

  15. Your request for information sounded snarky to me though perhaps I misread your intent. At any rate, the BBC compiled this information during the Lebanon war:

    Israel now admits to holding…three Lebanese…Hezbollah MP Nawar al-Sahili told the BBC…that Israel also holds a fourth man, a fisherman called Ali Faratan.

    Israel is also thought to be holding 25 Lebanese citizens of Palestinian origin,

    Of course, this information must be updated to include the Hezbollah fighters and civilians Israel kidnapped during the war and currently still holds.

    the phony demand for Har Dov

    “Phony” in your eyes. But not in theirs. It is outrageous of you to use such a label since Israel conquered the land and doesn’t even have a permanent claim to it. Your use of the term “phony” indicates how hopelessly twisted is your view of the conflict. If it were up to you we’d be spilling each other’s blood for the next 100 years or more.

  16. So I was pretty close. Kuntar. An ISRAELI held for spying (you will find no protest from me if as part of a peace agreement this man was stripped from his citizenship released, freed and deported to Lebanon). Not enough details are given concerning the other two men. The third man Israel denies holding, and if they are holding, ditto as for Kuntar since he was presumably involved in the massacring of 35 civilians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Skaf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre). What’s with the fisherman, Israel denies holding him. You conveniently left out this sentence from the BBC report: “…many for conventional criminal offences. Their release is not understood to be at the heart of the dispute with Hezbollah”. They should add “yet” since if someone in Jerusalem were to become delusional and release the first four or three, the release of these 25 criminals (probably drug smuggles or other kinds of smugglers) would become Hizballah’s top priority. Because this is all just a pretext to keep their phony struggle alive, and unfortunately the Lebanese lets itself get dragged along. BTW, someone at the BBC isn’t too bright (not news to me) since Palestinians in Lebanon are not Lebanese citizens. As far as Har Dov, eventually a gov’t will be elected in Israel that will give the Golan Heights with Sheba farms to Syria. It’s part of democracy. you win some elections and you lose some, so eventually a leftist gov’t is bound to be elected. When Syria gets the Sheba farms and Lebanon’s demand for them magically stops, that’s when you will know the demand was phony.

  17. As a Lebanese, I am happy that Israel is holding Samir Kuntar. He is a common criminal, and it is better that the Israeli taxpayer foot the bill than our government. Israel can keep him as long as they like

  18. Here’s a rule of thumb for my comment threads: if you repeat an argument twice in the same thread you’ve repeated it one time too many and probably exhausted anything original you had to say for that thread. That’s a good clue to stop & move on which you should do for this thread. Here’s your “repeat:”

    this is all just a pretext to keep their phony struggle alive

    You said it once, you said it twice. And if you annoy me by repeating an argument I’ve already objected to & pointed out it’s weakness or fallacy, well then you’re not being a good guest.

    I absolutely reject yr contention that the aspirations of the Lebanese people (not just Hezbollah, btw) are “phony” in any way. You’ve kept alive the memory of Ron Arad for 25 years. Why shouldn’t they keep alive the struggle to attain the liberty of their countrymen whether Israel holds 1 or 1,000? Is your desire to repatriate Arad’s remains “phony?” Of course not. Neither is theirs.

    eventually a gov’t will be elected in Israel that will give the Golan Heights with Sheba farms to Syria

    Glad to see that despite your annoying predilection for spouting prejudice & pablum that you’re aware of the territorial concessions necessary to attain peace. But how long will it take before enough Israelis put enough pressure on such a government to do that? Five years? A generation? Ten?

    eventually a leftist gov’t is bound to be elected.

    Ah, I see. So given recent political history, that should only take about five or six generations. No, I’m afraid the situation can’t wait that long.

    Pls., no more responses in this thread. And keep in mind my suggestions for future threads as well.

  19. As a Lebanese, I am happy that Israel is holding Samir Kuntar.

    Since you’re e mailing this comment from Emory University you don’t appear to live in Lebanon. At least not now. Perhaps you’re out of touch with what the rest of your co-nationals are feeling. I have no use for murderers like Kuntar myself. But I’d be willing to bet that most Lebanese would welcome his return. That leaves you in a distinct minority.

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