6 thoughts on “Olmert Talks Peace With Mubarak While Killing Palestinian Civilians – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Richard essentially admits Olmert’s case for him. The IDF was pursuing a wanted terrorist. It risked it’s own soldier’s lives to avoid collateral damage from the likes of an air strike or a tank shell. Was it carried out ineffectively? Perhaps, and Olmert and Peretz are rightfully criticized when these mistakes happen.

    For Richard to argue against this, he essentially says that the IDF can’t carry out any operations anywhere by any means. Because as long as the Palestinian militants continue to operate in populated areas, they will always put their own people in the line of fire.

    Far from “bringing people the truth” Richard has become a largely predictable loudmouth.

  2. Utterly ridiculous. BTW, the NY Times reveals today that Olmert’s aides say he DID NOT KNOW about the raid in advance. So who’s prosecuting government military-security policy? The PM or the IDF?

    The IDF was pursuing a wanted terrorist.

    No, only ideologues get to determine whether a man is a terrorist before trying him. Here in the good ‘ol USA we don’t call someone a terrorist until the charge is proven. Try ‘alleged terrorist.’ Oh that’s right, I forgot. You don’t need proof of such matters to believe the IDF. Because the IDF is the holy grail of probity and credibility. Never made a mistake. Never levelled a false charge against anyone. Right.

    It risked it’s own soldier’s lives to avoid collateral damage


    Again right. Does this image fr. the JPost look like avoiding collateral damage? Numerous eyewitnesses recount the massive damage done to Palestinian property by rampaging IDF bulldozers. The center of the city is an utter shambles. Sure, they avoided collateral damage. My ass.

    Was it carried out ineffectively? Perhaps

    You sure are credible. The IDF didn’t even get their man. They left their PM w. egg on his face before an enraged Hosni Mubarak. They killed 4 Palestinian civilians. The W. Bank IDF commander is being condemned by MKs for his pigheadedness. And the best you can muster is “Perhaps??” You’re lame.

    Olmert and Peretz are rightfully criticized when these mistakes happen.

    No, neither Olmert nor Peretz knew about the raid in advance. So you can’t blame them. You can only blame Gen. Naveh, the brilliant tactician who thought up (or at least commanded) this monstrosity. You CAN blame Olmert & Peretz in the sense that they should’ve known about this thing. The fact that they didn’t merely confirms the utter ineptitude of this government.

    He essentially says that the IDF can’t carry out any operations anywhere by any means

    Bullcrap. What YOU say I say lacks any credibility whatsoever because you so willfully misread & distort what I say or believe. Here’s what I believe. You don’t carry out a massive raid on the same day yr PM is conducting a delicate negotiation w. Egypt in yr. bid to free a kidnapped IDF soldier. You don’t carry out a massive raid in the center of the W. Bank’s largest city in broad daylight. If you do, you should expect to have yr head handed to you not only by world opinion, but by sitting MKs & perhaps the ministries whom you’ve embarrassed terribly.

    Far from “bringing people the truth” Richard has become a largely predictable loudmouth.

    There is more truth in a single sentence of this blog than in all the bloviating comments you’ve ever published here. And that amounts to thousands of hot-air filled words by now.

  3. If someone in the United States is an alleged terrorist, the authorities may investigate, approach and detain that individual. If the Palestinian “resistance” would like to play according to such rules of law, then no one would be more happy than I (and anyone who cares for peace).

    Of course, if a suspect comes out with guns blazing, the police can indeed shoot back.

    The Palestinian can do no wrong crowd essentially allows the “resistance” to play by the rules of war, while demanding that Israel act as if it is already at peace. It just doesn’t work that way.

  4. If someone in the United States is an alleged terrorist, the authorities may investigate, approach and detain that individual.

    This is an inapt analogy. Here is a better one–is a U.S. law enforcement agency entitled to send an armed contingent into the heart of downtown Havana to arrest a fugitive fr. U.S. justice? Of course not.

    You will argue that Cuba is an independent country and Palestine is not. But the facts are that Palestine is not the sovereign territory of Israel & therefore the rules must be different. But for Israel they are not since Israel does not believe in honoring the norms that most other nations follow in their relations with others. If Israel were to annex the W. Bank then while such an action would be unrecognized under international law, at least there would be some legal fig leaf for arresting Palestinians within the W. Bank. But since it has not done so, such raids are blatant violations. Would you care to pronounce yourself on the notion that Israel should annex the W. Bank?

    if a suspect comes out with guns blazing, the police can indeed shoot back.

    And you have proof that in this raid the “suspect came out with guns blazing?”

  5. If Palestine were part of Israel, then Israel would do what it’s police and internal security forces do in Israel. Israel has NOT annexed the West Bank or Gaza, however. So you are right that the rules are different. Specifically, Israel as an occupying authority may exercise administrative and security control as necessary to protect itself from belligerents inside the territory. For the first 20+ years of the occupation, this largely consisted of a few jeeps on patrol, and detention of suspected terrorists or supporters of hostile Arab nations.

    That all changed with the intifada, particularly the second intifada. The Palestinian “resistance” is significantly more violent and deadly, and when Israel does try to arrest such figures, they are often encountered with violent resistance. Mind you, I think Palestinians CAN resist. But then Israel has a right to strike back, as well as take preventative action.

    No matter how you try to spin it, Israel is entitled to take necessary action against militants in the territories. Certainly, force should be proportional and as minimal as necessary, which is why in this case, Israel sent it’s own men in on the ground, risking their lives, rather than simply dropping a bomb where the guy was staying.

    Again, you demand that the Israel’s act as if they are at peace, while allowing the Palestinians to act as if they are at war.

    The proof that the guns were blazing? Well, I just read the article you posted which says….

    “Hamad, who the soldiers said was armed with a pistol, identified the men as IDF soldiers and tried to escape.

    The IDF exchanged fire with Hamad, injuring him, yet he managed to elude IDF forces…

    The exchange of fire brought dozens of young men out of the buildings, and they began throwing stones and firebombs at the soldiers; a larger IDF force and Border Police moved in to support the commandos.”

    I wonder how many of the “civilians” in question were those “dozens of young men” throwing stones and firebombs.

  6. force should be proportional and as minimal as necessary, which is why in this case, Israel sent it’s own men in on the ground, risking their lives, rather than simply dropping a bomb where the guy was staying.

    Oh, you must be alluding to the Shehadeh killing where the IAF dropped a 1,000 lb bomb on an apt. block trying to kill one militant. They killed him all right, along with his entire family, a total of 17 people including children. The IAF commander of that operation, Doron Almog, was very nearly detained in London on an international arrest warrant. Too bad they missed him.

    I guess you’re trying to say they’ve learned something fr. that fiasco (not a fiasco in IDF terms, since Halutz said the only thing he felt in executing such an action was a ‘slight flutter of the wing’ as the bomb dropped fr. the plane–clearly Halutz and the other Israeli executioners sleep soundly when they kill so many civilians).

    You’re saying sending a huge force into downtown Ramallah in broad daylight while decimating every car or building that got in its way (Abbas has demanded $5-million in damages) is a “minimal & proportional” action. Here’s how Palestine Times described it:

    The Israeli incursion destroyed the [vegetable] market, vehicles and residential houses in that area. Also, facades and windows of a number of commercial buildings were destroyed. Blood stains, stones and broken glass are found everywhere in the streets.

    I guess you’re saying that a 2 hr. gun battle amid a bustling city of tens of thousands is SOP for the IDF. Fat chance. Besides, they didn’t get their man so perhaps they should’ve “dropped the big one” (as you suggest they could’ve done) on Manara Square since that seems what was needed in this instance. I guess dropping a bomb in that instance would’ve been a “minimal & proportional” response, eh?!

    you demand that the Israel’s act as if they are at peace

    Never said it. Don’t you dare put words in my mouth! Israel is entitled to defend itself & pursue wanted men as long as it has real evidence to prove their culpability & doesn’t kill or maim innocent civilians in the process.

    The proof that the guns were blazing? Well, I just read the article you posted which says….

    “Hamad, who the soldiers said was armed with a pistol, identified the men as IDF soldiers and tried to escape.

    The IDF exchanged fire with Hamad

    You are entirely lame. This passage nowhere says that Hamad opened fire first on the IDF. It merely says “Hamad tried to escape” and the “IDF exchanged fire with him.” Pls. do show me where it says Hamad opened fire first at the IDF. It is just as likely the IDF initiated fire. There have been many documented instances in which the IDF actually executed unarmed militants it was pursuing. So the notion that the IDF would open fire first & ask questions later is entirely credible, I’m sorry to say.

    I wonder how many of the “civilians” in question were those “dozens of young men” throwing stones and firebombs.

    Yes, it is interesting in a guerrilla insurgency like this one how quickly a civilian can turn into a fighter when they feel their fellow citizens are threatened. You have a hard time telling the diff. bet. the 2 in these situations, don’t you? Well, that’s because raids like this one turn the entire populace against the IDF. In a split second, a bustling intersection filled with civilians can become a free fire zone in which the IDF gets pinned down by fierce resistance & needs to call in the cavalry in order not to be entirely annihilated.

    Next time though, the IDF might not be so lucky. Perhaps one of those civilian-militants is going to have handy access to an RPG & then some very serious damage could be done. I note also that mortars were fired at the IDF. I’ve never heard of this happening before on such a mission. Perhaps this is a new escalation of Palestinian resistance giving the IDF something new to worry about when it engages the “enemy.”

    I’m presuming that the many news agencies which covered the incident live (including live video footage) can support the claim that the four killed were civilians (& that term has been used in multiple stories written by reporters on the scene). Haaretz also used this term to describe the dead. Unless you have any evidence to the contrary. BTW, your “wondering” whether the civilians were really militants doesn’t constitute evidence.

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