48 thoughts on “Massacre at Ras Sudr, How Future IDF Chief of Staff Ordered 1967 War Crime – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. @Richard

    You are accusing Levi of a war crime based on 1) an uncertain ‘chain of command’, 2) a scripted, admitted work of fiction, and 3) a nebulous and fictionalized instruction, ” You figure it out”.

    Wow. You’re unbelievable!

    1. @ Trippin’ Jon: 1. the chain of command isn’t uncertain. Moshe Levi was the commander. No less than Amos Schocken confirmed this by retweeting a link to this post yesterday during a Twitter debate on Benn’s article. 2. You apparently can’t read or failed reading comprehension during school. The creator of the mini series explicitly said that the Ras Sudr incident was not fictional. Did you miss that? 3. I guess you never served in the army, because when your commander tells you to solve the problem and you have only one way to do so, that’s what you do. There was only one solution: murder.

    2. I didn’t say that Levi wasn’t the commander. I said that the chain of command is uncertain. Did the junior officer who ordered the massacre receive his orders directly from Levi? That’s uncertain.

      I didn’t say that Ras Sudr was fiction. The book was fiction, and the Ras Sudr incident was fictionalized. The fiction book’s account of the massacre may have been largely accurate, but that still leaves us with the order, I don’t interpret “You figure it out” to mean ‘commit a war crime’. The junior officer could well have interpreted “You figure it out” to mean post one or two guards and treat the POW’s humanely.
      The junior chose to order a massacre, and you’ve failed to direct link Levi to an order to massacre.


      1. @ Yshai Kalmanovitch: Of course he rrceived his orders from Lrvi. Aluf Benn says explicitly that Levi got away with committing a war crime without punishment. If the managing editor of Haaretz blames Levi for the murders that’s good enough for me.

        The literal translation was “find your own solution.” Those who remember another “Solution” which was applied to wiping out another ppl will understand what “solution” meant in this context.

        Anyone serving in the military will understand clearly what the junior officer was being told to do.

        You are done in this thread. Do not post further here.

    1. @Hasbaraturd:


      There was never any war to “destroy Israel”. Israel has repeatedly tried to destroy the Palestinian people as a nation and is guilty of the worst war crimes in Palestine and Lebanon.

      With that disclaimer stating the obvious out of the way: it’s hilarious and pathetic to see THIS again. You cretins are so desperate to silence even the remotest criticism of the “Jewish state” at any time in its sordid history, aren’t you?

      What I find especially sickening is the pimping of the war in Syria, which you and your kind don’t give a damn about to begin with. Admit it. You don’t give two squirts about the Syrian people; it’s just a “hey look over there” whenever Israel is criticized in the context of the wars Israel itself caused.

    2. @Hasbarat:

      Wow, are you revolting. Shameless denial of the facts in the case, the pimping of a lying narrative about the war itself, and of course your bringing up the Syrian Civil War as a pathetic attempt to deflect.

      That last one is particularly sickening to me. You don’t care about the Syrian people; not in the slightest. In all likelihood, you celebrate their suffering.

      1. [comment deleted: First, the original comment was off topic. Your attempt to explain the original comment was not only superfluous, but also off topic.]

      2. You do know that Israel has been treating Syrians right? Oh right that’s just for show. And I don’t agree with you on any of your other ridiculous ahistorical assertions. We could debate each point in a separate forum for weeks

        1. @ John F: Been there, done that. Look up my posts on Israel’s intervention in the SYrian war. Israel treats its own Syrian Islamist allies. That’s not humanitarian. That’s to directly escalate the war by sending al Qaeda affiliated fighters back into action.

          1. @Amico: Israel offers “humanitarian aid” to those who advance its political interests. Those treated in Israeli hospitals are either al Nusra fighters, their familues or others living in territory of Israeli allies in Syria. Israel never does anything out of the goodness of its own heart.

          2. The ‘deal’, Richard, as you well know, it that Israel treats ANY wounded Syrian (most often al-Nusra), and in exchange, al Nusra doesn’t attack Syrian Druze.

            That’s called ‘realpolitik’.

            Get real.

          3. Yshai Kalmanovitch: the deal is that Israel not only treats al Nusra fighters, but offers them intelligence & equipment so that they can weaken the Assad regime. Al Nusra has never attacked Isrsel becausr Israel isn’t its enemy, Assad is. If it ever takes over Syria you will see that change rapidly.

          4. “Israel not only treats al Nusra fighters, but offers them intelligence & equipment ”

            A flat out lie.

            The only, and I mean ONLY, supporting singular claim, comes from an anonymous Syrian general who supports Assad. i.e. trash.

          5. @Yshai: Once again you get the Chelm Award for most idiotic commenter of the day, if not year. This blog contains posts documenting every claim I made based on credible media sources (not an anonymous Syrian general). NOw go back & do a Google search to find them. And if you accuse me of lying one more time w/o doing such research you will be gone. Capiche? You’re on a razor’s edge here.

  2. Richard – there seems to be a small bug in the website. On the home page it said this article has 8 comments, when I opened the article it said 4 but I can see 5 comments.

    1. Sivan: I don’t know what that “8” constitutes. It may include comments not yet approved by me. Right now I see ten approved comments & one unapproved.

      I’ll have to ask my new web host. This may have something to do with the new hosting format.

  3. It is unfortunately naive to suppose that this story is unique to the Israeli army. Murder of POW has occurred in any war by any army throughout history. The USA army, for example, did it on quite a large scale during World War 2 and Vietnam. Every army in every conflict blamed his enemy for murdering POW, while doing it themselves. In the book 1984 there is a nice demonstration of that.

    War is simply a dirty business and it takes the worst out of human beings. It is not surprising that WW1 caused Freud to change his theory and add aggression as one of the basic human drives.

    Usually there 2 reasons for murdering POWs: either at the heat of the moment, when soldiers feel an urge to avenge their falling friends or simply out of hate, or as a calculated act committed because there is no way to take care of the POWs and setting them free is obviously too risky. Killing them is of course a very ugly solution, but again, war brings the worst out of people.

    1. @ Amico: Here’s what my comment rules say (read them): if you wish to make a historical claim then do so using credible evidence. Alleging the U.S. killed POWs ‘on quite a large scale’ is an allegation, not a valid statement. Support your claim with real evidence.

      Your claim that what Levi did is OK because everybody does it also rings hollow. Using your logic murder should be acceptable because it’s a common practice among human beings.

      Anyone who murders a POW in cold blood has committed a war crime. There is no excuse for it despite your cynical approach.

        1. @ Yshai Kalmanovitch: That was the Jordanian front. And it was in response to Israeli murders of Palestinians at Deir Yassin & elsewhere.

          Go find Egyptian massacres of Israeli POWs in 48 or 67. That would be comparable to Ras Sudr.

          1. @ Yshai: I swear you can’t read. I said find me incidents of Egyptians killing Israeli POWs in either 48, 56, or 67. You found an example in 1973, which is neither 48, 56, or 67. Of course there were POWs killed in 73 because Israel had killed thousands of Egyptian POWs in three previous wars. Egyptians were slow to exact revenge, but once Israel pulled this trick in 3 previous wars, it’s no wonder it happened in 73.

            So now go back to the drawing board & find what I originally asked for. And read my comments more carefully–or take a reading comprehension class.

            An apology for getting it wrong wouldn’t hurt either…Dream on…

      1. Hmmm…
        First of all, I haven’t said it was O.K to kill POW’s. It is indeed a crime. What I am saying is that it is common in wars because of the nature of war. War is something to be avoided at almost any price BEACUSE it can lead even the most moral person, and the most moral army, to commit heinous atrocities.
        As for “credible evidence”…well, what I wrote about the USA army (and in fact all armies) during WWII is reported in more than a few books about the war. Perhaps not everyone read as much as I did about the period.
        One notable examples is the Biscari massacre in which 73 German and Italian POWs were murdered by members of the US army
        The acclaimed WWII historian Antony Beevor stated that the killing of German POWs in France following D day was quite common. “Beevor extensively quotes reports and memoirs of those who took part in the invasion, many of whom state that American, British and Canadian troops killed German POWs and wounded soldiers. They also reportedly used soldiers belonging to the German Wehrmacht or Waffen SS as human shields and forced them to walk through minefields”
        Another acclaimed WW2 writer (“Band of brothers”), Stephen Ambrose, declared that “I’ve interviewed well over 1000 combat veterans. Only one of them said he shot a prisoner … Perhaps as many as one-third of the veterans … however, related incidents in which they saw other GIs shooting unarmed German prisoners who had their hands up”.
        To me such evidence attests that, as I wrote, the USA killed POW’s on quite a large scale. And the Americans were not among the worst. The red army was much much worse in the regard. The point is, again, that even the most moral army, and indeed even the most moral people, can and do deteriorate during wars. This is yet another reason why wars are a terrible tragedy

          1. Trapper Yishai, you do not seem to know how many people were involved, and had to be involved, in hiding the Frank family and the others hidden in the Achterhuis. On the other hand, there needed to be only 1 traitor to undo all this effort and send everyone to their deaths.

            Hiding even 1 person required help from many others (increasing the risk), such as in getting food coupons to get the extra food to feed the hidden person. Those coupons had to be forged (involving people who had acces to printing presses to do the illegal printing of the coupons) or had to be stolen (which involved armed raids on Nazi government offices). Many people were tortured and died doing such things.
            It is always good to be a little informed, so as not to say stupid things, don’t you agree?

        1. But if a Jew commits a war crime, if he acts like any other human being in a war, than that’s an unspeakable horror.
          Because Jews are…different than other human beings?

          Not different to me, but different to anti-Semites and ‘Jew scourers’, who compulsively need to rub, rub, rub.

          1. @ Yshai Kalmanovitch: First. You have called me an anti-Semite. That is a cardinal comment breach. You are now on notice: the next violation of any kind may result in your banning.

            Second, this has nothing to do with Jews. We are talking about Israelis. Their Jewishness has nothing to do with their war crime. There is nothing in Jewish law which approves the slaughter of defenseless men in war.

            Remember, you are now on notice. Those El Al engines are revving up for a landing at Ben Gurion as we speak [inside joke].

        2. Amigo – perhaps you should reread what you have written and think about the impression your words might make on an impartial listener. You respond to credible allegations of war-crimes, admit that this might be worse than a crime (“heinous atrocities”), but then allege that this is excusable because all countries do this and all wars are horrible. That is a reasonable point of view until you undermine your argument by referring to the “the most moral army” rather than one which is as bad as any other army.

          You make the point that “war is to be avoided at any cost” without addressing the point that Israel has had more wars of choice than most other states, has so often attacked its neighbours with little provocation, and has studiously eschewed all diplomatic alternatives such as arbitration or UN intervention and has refused to have international peace-keepers on Israeli soil (though no one knows quite where that lies). Of course it may be that the generals are the most moral and peace-loving generals around and it is merely wicked politicians who have forced an unwilling general staff to adopt a reluctant belligerence. But that argument won’t wash because two or your more reasonable PMs (Sharett and Eshkol) were horribly bullied by aggressive generals, and most of the others were themselves ex-generals or former chiefs-of-staff or came from glorious military dynasties.

          When Israel has lived and continues to live by the sword, and where military exploits are a major key to advancement in Israeli society it really is absurd for you to keep reeling out that old chestnut of “the most moral army”. Why not accept the plaudits you could justifiably claim as one of the most militarised and uncompromisingly aggressive societies, on a par with Sparta or Prussia or North Korea?

  4. Richard: Nassar is on record as saying that his goal was to ‘throw Israel into the sea.” In other words, to annihilate the State of Israel and all Jews there.
    The Egyptian army, and all its soldiers, were a part of this, and, had they had the opportunity, they would have done so.
    They deserved whatever they got. Period.

    1. @ Zio troll: Do not use Zio-cheerleader slogans for your handle here. Comment threads are not cheerleading sections. I will call you @Zio troll till you change your handle.

      As for Nasser, he was a blowhard. Donald Trump is one too. Do you believe everything Trump says?

      I do not permit commrntrrs to support or advocate murder or war crimes. Read the comment rules. If you do anything like this again you will lose yr comment privileges.

    2. I have noticed that many times; Israeli’s exusing their own brutality, from rape to ethnic cleansing, by imagining what the other side ‘would have done’ if they had the chance. Imagine yourself a victim so as to be able to hit ‘back’ harder.

  5. “Of course there were POWs killed in 73 because Israel had killed thousands of Egyptian POWs in three previous wars”

    @Elizabeth and Richard: Morality is a funny thing, because your judgement of who is the victim and who is the perpetrator is based on a narrative, which depends on when you begin the story. The above quotation from your comment says it all.
    In your world it is always the Zionists or Israelis who do the first wrongdoing (because they are criminals and the act makes them even more so) and it is the Palestinians or Arabs who react with their own misdeeds (which makes it “understandable” and therefore that side not worthy of condemnation).
    So when do you begin the story? ’29? ’48? ’67? Hebron? Aushwitz? Deir Yassin? Balfour? When the first Jew from Poland stepped on Palestinian soil? Adam and eve?

    Does the fact that Israel is strong and the Arabs or Palestinians weak, predetermine which side is right or wrong on any particular issue?

    I am not into blaming victims, but perhaps the Arab world and Palestinians in particular are where they are because of a long series of missteps, miscalculations, internal fighting and bad leadership. You can’t blame Israel for all of that.

    It seems to me that for you guys basically Israel’s existence is sinful, therefore no matter what it does its criminal, and no matter what anybody does to it, its an excusable reaction.

    1. @ Yehuda:

      Morality is a funny thing, because your judgement of who is the victim and who is the perpetrator is based on a narrative, which depends on when you begin the story

      So you’re arguing that because Palestinians killed Jews in 1929 that justifies Israelis killing Egyptians in 1948, 56 & 67? No Israelis had ever been killed by Egypt before 1948. So on what basis was it justified for Israelis to kill POWs in 48?

      I am not into blaming victims, but perhaps the Arab world and Palestinians in particular are where they are because of a long series of missteps, miscalculations, internal fighting and bad leadership

      Sure you are. You just did. Israel has made as many missteps & miscalculations as the Arabs, so I’m afraid that argument doesn’t work. And yes, we can blame Israel for a huge proportion of what’s currently wrong now. It is far the most powerful player. And the wealthiest. And the most lethal.

      I never speak about politics in terms of sin. Nor did I in this case. You may exaggerate & distort my views all you wish somewhere else. But not here.

      You are done in this thread. But I warn you, mischaracterizing my views is not acceptable.

    2. What is Aushwitz doing in your list?
      But anyway, we have been over this ‘narrative’ thing of yours before. Let’s not repeat it.

  6. Richard – on an historical bais alone – great exposure. Linking Moshe Levi to this is something I haven’t seen anywhere else. Much of the rest is your interpretation. I believe that claiming to be “the most moral army” requires some transparency which you provided.

    On another note, when it comes to evidence you have double standards and it is clear from your responses on this thread. On one hard you demand “if you wish to make a historical claim then do so using credible evidence.” but when it comes to claims you made you politely ask the reader to “go back & do a Google search to find them”. Since you use hyperlinks in your article, why not link to a source when the information isn’t widely known and isn’t commonly accepted.

    1. @ Sivan:

      why not link to a source when the information isn’t widely known and isn’t commonly accepted.

      Because I’ve written 6,000 posts & if I went back & did the research for everyone who asked or demanded that I support my claims, I’d be doing their work for them & not my own. Google is a perfectly good research tool. I have a search feature in the header of my blog that works well too. A search on terms like “Israel & Al Nusra” or something along those lines should bring up 15-20 posts which document all my claims. Beyond that, it’s not my job.

      As for my claims not being “commonly accepted,” you mean what you believe is commonly accepted & what i know & have documented is not. That’s humorous. You might not get the joke, but others here will.

      1. Indeed, I didn’t get the joke.

        When you write about Israel and al-Nusra one might think the cooperation is in the magnitude of Russia/Syria cooperation but all you got is some fighters and children treated in Israeli hospital, a box given at the darkness of night and conversations at border crossings.

        So, while the facts are clear your interpretation and presentation is completely neglected.

        1. @ Sivan: Not quite. IDF intelligence meeting regularly with Al Nusra to plot strategy. IDF special forces patrolling regularly inside Syria & liaising with Syrian Druze who are fighting ISIS. Israel dropping boxes full of equipment to al Nusra, and Israel building a special camp for al Nusra fighters’ families on the Israeli occupied side of the Golan “border.” A huge level of support from Israel confirmed by nearly 20 articles in mainstream news sources.

          Your facts aren’t clear, nor is your interpretation of them.

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