38 thoughts on “Lieberman Appoints IDF Chief Rabbi Who Endorses Rape to Improve Troop Morale – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. OMG!

    We (Jews) needed a country of our very own so that a Jewish culture would flourish, eh? Armaments to control people and this sort of crap about rape, these seem to be the flowering of the culture. I say Israel is an embarrassment, a cockamamie brew of archaic political ideologies and tribal rites and high tech. Shameful.

  2. Rabbi Krim and his predecessor, Rabbi Ronzki, who you claim committed war crimes, have done more for the state of Israel than you can possibly imagine. They are genuine patriots and heroes. Any objective person cannot but see and understand this. Their names should not be muddied by foundless charges. Their holiness shines from their faces. These charges are a ‘chilul HaShem’ – a desecration of G-d’s holy name.

    1. @ (Rabbi):

      Rabbi Krim and his predecessor, Rabbi Ronzki, who you claim committed war crimes

      As a rabbi I’m sure you understand the concept of motzi shem ra. Part of it is accurately characterizing what others have said & not falsifying their words. You have falsified my words. I hope you did so unintentionally, but I have my doubts. Rabbis, unless they take up a gun & kill on the battlefield don’t commit war crimes. But they certainly can advocate military conduct which constitutes war crimes. And that both rabbis have done. Your defense of them does them no favors and in fact indicts the whole class of rabbis you represent (but not ALL rabbis).

      What is a true hilul haShem is rabbinic justification of rape and murder. The fact that you cannot see that stains you as a representative of the rabbinate and the Jewish people.

      1. A rabbi who endorses other rabbis’ perversions of Judaism should not even be able to USE the term Chilul Hashem. Such a Rabbi EMBODIES the concept by his very existence.

  3. To be fair, he provided a response to a direct question regarding Deuteronomy 21:10-14 and he did not advocate this but rather explained the biblical passage. To be precise the biblical passage itself isn’t exactly rape (I’m sure someone will scream “sex slave”) – and for its time is rather advanced and contains many provisos and hold backs (including a 30 day wailing waiting period + shaving her head) before such a relationship (which is more substantive than rape&discard – this is a form of marriage) can be consummated.

    This is the biblical text in question – [which clearly to a modern orthodox Jew believing the text is god given and eternal – raises some questions]

    י כִּי-תֵצֵא לַמִּלְחָמָה, עַל-אֹיְבֶיךָ; וּנְתָנוֹ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, בְּיָדֶךָ–וְשָׁבִיתָ שִׁבְיוֹ. 10 When thou goest forth to battle against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God delivereth them into thy hands, and thou carriest them away captive,
    יא וְרָאִיתָ, בַּשִּׁבְיָה, אֵשֶׁת, יְפַת-תֹּאַר; וְחָשַׁקְתָּ בָהּ, וְלָקַחְתָּ לְךָ לְאִשָּׁה. 11 and seest among the captives a woman of goodly form, and thou hast a desire unto her, and wouldest take her to thee to wife;
    יב וַהֲבֵאתָהּ, אֶל-תּוֹךְ בֵּיתֶךָ; וְגִלְּחָה, אֶת-רֹאשָׁהּ, וְעָשְׂתָה, אֶת-צִפָּרְנֶיהָ. 12 then thou shalt bring her home to thy house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
    יג וְהֵסִירָה אֶת-שִׂמְלַת שִׁבְיָהּ מֵעָלֶיהָ, וְיָשְׁבָה בְּבֵיתֶךָ, וּבָכְתָה אֶת-אָבִיהָ וְאֶת-אִמָּהּ, יֶרַח יָמִים; וְאַחַר כֵּן תָּבוֹא אֵלֶיהָ, וּבְעַלְתָּהּ, וְהָיְתָה לְךָ, לְאִשָּׁה. 13 and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thy house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month; and after that thou mayest go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
    יד וְהָיָה אִם-לֹא חָפַצְתָּ בָּהּ, וְשִׁלַּחְתָּהּ לְנַפְשָׁהּ, וּמָכֹר לֹא-תִמְכְּרֶנָּה, בַּכָּסֶף; לֹא-תִתְעַמֵּר בָּהּ, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר עִנִּיתָהּ. {ס} 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not deal with her as a slave, because thou hast humbled her. {S}

    1. @ lepxii: Your comment is beyond offensive. But typical of what I’d expect of you.

      So let’s examine the tripe you’ve passed off as filet mignon: first, you know & I know that Krim’s comments on military procedure today had nothing to do with the protocol discussed in Deuteronomy. No Israel soldier is going to capture an enemy woman, have sex with her and marry her. It’s clear from what Krim says he’s talking about raping Arab women during war. The questioner himself in his original question asked “is it permitted today to rape during war.” So Krim’s answer directly related to his use of that term.

      I’m perfectly happy if you wish to try to redeem the passage from Deuteronomy, though I think it’s a lost cause. But defending Krim & saying he is somehow OK because of the content of the original Bibilical passage is beyond disingenuous.

      1. But he was asked specifically about “אשה יפת תואר” – which is described in Deuteronomy. The questioner equated “אשה יפת תואר” with rape (not exact, but definitely not an acceptable practice today) – the question was rather specifically framed around “אשה יפת תואר”. See your link

        And specifically –
        קראתי באתר זה לגבי שבויה יפת תואר, וכן את ההלכות בתורה, ועדין נשארת לי השאלה-
        אם כן, אונס במלחמה נחשב דבר מזעזע. איך, אם כן נאמר לי ע”י רב, שאישה יפת תואר מותר, לפי חלק מן הפוסקים, גם לפני כל התהליך המתואר בתורה? זאת אומרת, יכנע ליצרו וישכב עימה, ורק אחר כך יקח אותה לביתו וכו´?

        He also clarified his responsa here in 2012, over here –

        In which he clearly states that rape is forbidden in any circumstance, also war.

        1. @ lepxii: Wrong. The very last sentence in the sh’eilah asked of Krim was this:
          “והאם מותר במינו לחייל צה”ל, לדוגמא, לאנוס בחורות בזמן לוחמה, או שדבר זה אסור?”
          You can see the word “rape” as clearly as I can in that sentence & that is the word the rabbi had in his mind as he answered the question. Anything else is smoke and mirrors. Not only that, but Krim clearly responded affirmatively to the question and said that rape was permitted. He used a Hebrew euphemism for rape in his reply. But you & I both know what he was talking about. You may try to gussy it up & call it something different. But you know what this was. You what he was saying.

          You’ve had your say now. There’s nothing more for you to say here. Move on to another thread.

    2. @Lexpii:

      So much waffling. But anything to hide away the apparent fact that someone acting as an authorized religious authority in the least moral army in Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon is advocating the rape of Palestinian or non-Jewish women as a “war tactic” and otherwise attempting to justify it?

      That’s just gross. But I’ve found that defenders of the “Jewish state” will try and find a way to make excuses for those who claim to speak for it, no matter how disgusting they are.

      So what now? Are you going to say “but Palestinians would rape Israeli women if they got the chance to!”?

    3. I’ll make it simple for all of you….This so called Rabbi(t)…should all be in room with other rabbits and screw each other in the ass repeatedly !…..get you’re jollies off on each other…either your plain ass dumbshits ! or jus t plain ass for screwing !….simple and done !

          1. @ Shlomi: You are willfully obtuse. I said I disagree with the comment. You may NOT construe my publishing the comment as in any way endorsing it. Since you have, you are acting in bad faith. Yet another reason you’ve been moderated.

  4. Wow! Wth did I just read? Why isn’t this all over mainstream media? If this was a Muslim cleric, every news outlet would be talking about it 24/7! Unbelievable.

  5. Richard, here I will even outflank you.

    The rabbi’s comments, maybe were taken slightly out of context and explained away with hairsplitting by his spokesperson, ( the difference between “parshanut” and “halacha”)

    However, the fact that a rabbi should even have to address with “parshanut” an obscene passage like this in the Torah shows that in fact Judaism, as well as the other Abrahamic religions, are based on holy books that need to be openly and completely repudiated by any person with a sane mind. It it certainly insanity to use such a book as a basis for running a state. Religious interpretation and texts simply cannot be disconnected or explained away. There will always be a large number of people who insist on the literal meaning of texts (and they are being intellectually honest) and no amount of liberal or enlightened reinterpretation can whitewash the immorality contained in them

    Jews, Muslims and Christians– need to get over the Bible and Koran but of course I know that this will not happen soon.

    While I doubt that it has ever occurred to a Jewish soldier to rape somebody on the basis of this passage (or the rabbi’s “parshanut”) , the fact that such a discussion can even occur is totally disgusting in every imaginable way.

    1. @ Yehuda: While I agree with much of what you say, it’s important to note that there are ways to permit the tradition to evolve over time. There are ancient Jewish laws which have been abrogaged completely by later rabbis. This passage from Deuteronomy should be one of them. The problem of course is with the rabbinic interpreters as much as with the original text. Idiots like Krim believe they have to take the Torah literally & that its interpretation is fixed in stone. This itself is a falsification of the tradition.

      As for your final comment, I believe there are hundreds of Orthodox IDF soldiers who will see such a rabbinic ruling from a learned respected figure like Krim & believe that rape is permissible. I only hope that their commanders weren’t educated in Krim’s military prep academy and will set their soldiers right on this matter. But when you have a senior commander like Krim advocating bestial modes of conduct, you have to expect his followers will do as he says.

      1. One of the problems that pre-Israel religious Zionism had to cope with, was the existence of religious laws that were swept under the carpet as irrelevant, either because of changing times or because of Jews being powerless in a diaspora. Now that the Jews actually had to run a modern state, they could no longer overlook these laws, and had to either advocate loopholes (as with shmita), or try to implement them.

        So now you have crazies who say stuff like Krim, or others who want to rebuild the Temple and re-institute sacrifices, not use the electric company power on Shabbat, or restore Hebrew law for civil matters.
        The time which you speak of, when rabbis had the authority to rescind laws, no longer exists–because there is no central authority and because the rabbis don’t want it.

        With regards to IDF soldiers, I can only hope you are wrong. His original comment was supposedly made 13 years ago on some forum and spoke only theoretically. I cannot imagine any religious soldier actually implementing such a horrific thing, based on his statements.

        Also, hairsplitting is a Jewish tradition– and it is not unusual for subtle differences in circumstances to completely change a law, and Jews learn to actually practice that way. I think that this has created a sort of “checks and balances” in Jewish law, preventing absurd or dangerous things from being implemented purely because of “the law”. Nonetheless, in mainstream religious traditions, god comes before man, and this simple fact leaves religious people vulnerable to dangerous or immoral influence.

    2. “Judaism, as well as the other Abrahamic religions, are based on holy books that need to be openly and completely repudiated by any person with a sane mind.”

      Hear hear!!!n Tha abrahamic religions are obsolete, backwards, obscene…all three of them.

  6. @Yehuda

    Are you as an obviously “secular” Israel not becoming a member of a threatened minority? Avnery says in his latest column that virtually all first generation Zionists, including Herzl and Jabotinsky, were staunch atheists – who yet had to cling to the idea that the God, in whom they did not believe, had nevertheless promised them the land of Israel.

    Now we see the curious variant of Marxism coming about in which the ” ideological superstructure” is adapting itself to a substructure of political – material necessity. A violent religious kind of Zionism has taken over so that those in power now can hold with a good conscience that God is true to his promise, is on the side of the settlers and the IDF and encouraging land theft.

    As far as that rape promoting rabbi is concerned I am speechless. Armies have always pillaged and raped and officers either looked the other way or participated in it. Pastors have blessed weapons, led the prayer for “their” side and have forgiven the sins of rapists and pillagers. But I have NEVER heard of a pastor, military or otherwise, who actively promoted the rape of “enemy” women.
    And that exactly this man has now been made the chief rabbi of the IDF is an abomination.

    It shows how deep the contempt for and hatred of “the other side” has gone.

  7. @Arie, although my personal story is not of interest on this blog, suffice it to say that I am embedded in a modern orthodox lifestyle which I maintain for cultural and family reasons. I am indeed concerned about religious trends in the country, and I hope that economic and rational national interests prevail over primitive and populist instincts. Hopefully we will not be “trumped” 🙂

    I agree with the essence of what you are saying. Every founding story has its myths. You need them to rally the people. It is obvious that the secular founders of the state didn’t actually believe in God giving them the Holy Land, but rather that the Jews had strong historical roots in Israel with backing from some basically accurate historical accounts in the bible and post biblical historiography.

    Similarly, I don’t think that Palestinian leaders actually believe many of their own statements referring to their Canaanite roots or their denials of Judean history in the region. But, understandably they must keep up the narrative in order to maintain the social cohesion of their movement and avoid cognitive dissonance regarding their religious beliefs.

    Basically every form of nationalism is a myth at some level, some more than others. David Reiff in his book “In praise of forgetting” speaks about culturally promoted (but often incorrect) “memories” that can serve either good or bad purposes. In the case of the latter, they serve to justify and maintain grievances or sense of entitlement, with resulting aggression or oppression. It is very difficult to overcome this.

  8. Jewish traditions must be so embarrassing for some. It has all kind of dated rules like אשת יפת תואר, עמלק and even שחיטה (slaughtering) must be very embarrassing.

    And while the rabbis made loopholes in order to void some rules, the main principles stayed and they are integral part of Judaism. Of course, the morals at the time when they were written has to be taken into account. If one judges everything in accordance to present day codes, except for Isaac and Jesus, everyone will come out a bloody murderer. That includes Abraham, Moses, Saul, David and Muhammad.

    Krim initially made a very poor job clarifying that these rules do not apply today, though he defiantly didn’t gave a green light to an IDF soldier to rape. But the circus around this isn’t an attack only on him but on Judaism and some of it archaic rules.

    Judaism is a package deal and while certain rules had lost some of their relevancy, this fierce attack goes beyond Krim. Unless one treats Judaism as a social club, then forget anything I have wrote above.

  9. @Yehuda


    Yes I agree that every country has its foundation myths. I was taught my first bit of history in a Dutch primary school where, three to four centuries after the facts, the Dutch eighty year war of independence (1568 – 1648) against the Spanish Empire was still the central topic. Even when you get to know more history it is not always easy to liberate yourself from the simplicities that are served up in those primary school stories.

    Having said that I am not sure whether the Palestinians are as secretly sceptical about the story of their Canaanite roots as you make them out to be. Neither am I sure whether they should be.

    This is obviously not the thread to discuss these matters which I have talked about earlier on Tony Karon’s defunct blog “Rootless Cosmopolitan” here:


    (the first few posts on that thread and actually throughout because I was awfully busy there).

  10. I read a while ago a Muslim cleric from Atjeh (Indonesia) defending the idea that women’s testimonies in court should only count half compared to that of men, because women were ruled by their emotions, whereas men were ruled by their ratio.

    I know some Western men like to say ‘are you having your period or something?’ as soon as a woman expresses anger at them, likewise implying that women are somehow too emotionally or hormonally ‘challenged’ to be taken seriously.

    What can a woman say confronted with such idiocy? Well this:

    Who are the people maiming and beating up others at soccer matches, bars and disco’s and even bus stops at night, every day of the week? You know the answer.

    If we want to get into dissing the opposite sex, I would say there is a lot of evidence that men are suffering from ‘pre-menstrual syndrome’ on a permanent basis.

    1. @Elizabeth
      It is well know that among humans, demographically, young men are responsible for the overwhelming majority of violence, even when excluding war.

      If we could somehow neutralize them, the world would be a much more peaceful place!

      1. @Yehuda: we’d be better off educating them and socializing them to be constructive citizens than neutralizing them. But I admit that some of the views I read from young Israeli men are pathologically violent & hateful (from older Israelis was well).

        1. [Mazel tov: you’ve gone from moderated to banned outright. You didn’t even pass Go or collect your $200! Shloime, we hardly knew ye!]

          1. Shlomi your unwillingness to acknowledge the truth, the brutality and barbarism that Israel practices daily, makes you just another psychopath. You should be ashamed of yourself and of Israel. I am disgusted by people like you. You are an embarrassment to the human race.

  11. The words “against their will” are not in the Krim’s answer. It is a fruit of your imagination.

    Why lie about it?

    1. @Shlomi: accusing me of lying is a banning offense. See my last paragraph below.

      I never claimed they appeared in Krim’s answer verbatim. There are no quotation marks around the words on my post.

      The Hebrew term “neged retzonan” is a summary of the clear meaning of Krim’s response. The term was used in Israeli media coverage of this matter. I agree that it is an accurate paraphrase of Krim’s answer.

      If you think any Arab woman wants to be forced to have sex in wartime with IDF soldiers or that Krim believes they would do this willingly, then you are one sick puppy.

      You either withdraw your claim that I lied on this instance or you will be banned. You have 6 hours.

      1. [comment deleted–you have been moderated. If you attempt to post further comments that violate the comment rules you may be banned.]

  12. I posted here earlier, and having read the comment guidelines I see why my posts were not approved. I will give it another go.

    Eyal Krim must be a very frightened insecure man to make such a revolting pronouncement. If I look past my initial reaction to what he said, which was rage, and think about him as a person, I think he must be someone who is not in touch with some essential aspects of his own humanity. I feel compassion for him actually, along with still feeling angry.

    There is no justification for rape ever ever ever. It is NOT a spiritual value to encourage rape, it is a result of disordered thinking. I don’t know anything about Eyal Krim except what I read here, and I’m sure there’s more to the story.

    The bottom line for me is that someone who encourages rape is, in fact, deeply damaged.

    1. @Baruch: 1st time commenters are moderated to prevent abuse. Once your first comment is approved you will be free to comment.

      I would suggest mot speculating, even in jest or under extreme provocation (a la Kim), about why people may hate Jews. I steer clear of that sort of rhetoric.

  13. And on top of everything else, “One of Ateret Cohanim’s goals is to restore the sacred priestly rite of animal sacrifice and rebuild the Holy Temple, a project which would require demolition of the Muslim holy sites of Haram al-Sharif.”

    This is what is supposed to lead Israel (and presumably the rest of the world) into the future? While it is unrealistic and unfair to judge a Bronze Age society by our standards, it is INSANITY for those of us in the 21st Century to judge ourselves by theirs.

    Thank God I’m an atheist.

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