20 thoughts on “Haaretz Publishes Pseudonymous Apologia for Torture, and They’ll Make You Pay to Read It – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. In a perfect world there would be no need for “torture” (and excuse me for the brackets, it’s mostly psy ops games, and pressure) in a perfect world Dirani will not be allegedly (innocent until proven guilty is a new concept for the folks of Washington state ?) sodomized, in a perfect world the terrorists will not cause an Israeli pilot to disappear, in a perfect world the politicians will not walk away and will not throw Capt. George under the bus claiming they didn’t know about his methods.

    But we don’t leave in a perfect world, and psyops and pressure does work and aids in extracting the right information, as Leon Panetta while serving as CIA chief, admitted in an interview (http://tinyurl.com/6q44tu3)

    and until this world will turn into a perfect place, well till then we have the right to defend ourselves.

    Dirani wasn’t just a random southern Lebanese guy, as those who read your blog may think. Dirani held Ron Arad for two years, and if you believe anything Ronen Bergman states, part of the time he was held in the trunk of his car. Bergman also stats( the state of Israel will do everything) that Dirani was the one who sold him to the Iranians.

    Cap. Simone says, don’t throw us under the bus, everyone new, it was approved by the higher ups people. This was the approved method, now stand by it. IMHO he’s 100% right.

    1. Ahh, so Dirani was one of the bad guys, so it’s OK to torture him. Got it. But when the good guys arrest somebody obviously they are assuming he is one of the bad guys – right? So I guess we can’t complain if they torture pretty much anybody. How about people who know where the bad guys are? Guess we can torture them, too. How about the people we think know where the bad guys are? Well, let’s do the job right, hmm? How about the people we think just might know who might be a bad guy? Better cast the net widely, right? I mean, this is about security. Can’t be too careful.

      Psyops and pressure do work, because the head of the CIA said so? Is that some kind of joke? I don’t think that’s even worth responding to.

      The only thing I agree with is that it is not the fault of the people who were carrying out the orders. They must be held to account – but so should the higher ups who authorized torture. Democracy? Hello?

      1. Albert Camus already stated that if he had to chose between adhering to moral values to protecting his mother he will chose to protect his mother.

        ” Psyops and pressure do work, because the head of the CIA said so? Is that some kind of joke? I don’t think that’s even worth responding to.”

        not because he said so, because he admitted that the info that led to Osama was extracted this way. You think he was lying ?

        1. @ Liron
          “Albert Camus already stated that if he had to chose between adhering to moral values to protecting his mother he will chose to protect his mother”
          This sentence makes absolutely no sens.
          Camus has been much criticized for his statement on his mother but now he’s additionally being misquoted and used by the Zionists !

        2. After WW2 USA executed Japanese soldiers as war criminals for torturing US soldiers using waterboarding. Abu Zubaydah has been water-boarded 83 times + “enjoyed” of other torture methods (videotapes of some of his interrogations were destroyed). CIA documents tell that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had been subjected to 183 applications of waterboarding + other US/Israeli new methods. Etc.

          Christopher Hitchens wanted (voluntarily) to make a test with waterboarding . He lasted 16 seconds. I suppose that after some “water treatment” Liron would confess that his mother builds bombs for the new Stern Gangs and his sister sells drugs in USA to finance the West Bank settlements. There is too much evidence that under torture you get the answers you want and to those which are asked. After a couple of water boardings Liron would answer to the question: “Does your 75 year old mother build bombs to the settler organizations?” Please stop – yes and many of bombs – please stop. There is a reason why courts do not approve evidence got using torture. The reason is not the human right violations, it is the quality of the evidence. Why has USA taken to court so few of those very bad “taxi drivers” sold to them and kept now a decade in Guantanamo Bay? The reason is that it would be to embarrassing to present to the public the “evidence” plus cause very severe problems with international and domestic laws, not to the accused, but to the accusers. That is why they are destroying the evidence and documents.

          Moral is a “funny” thing. One can only demand from others the moral values he/she follow. Israel’s presently happening total image collapse is caused mostly of contradiction in the values Israel demands from others and the moral with what Israelis treat non-Jews. Sooner or later Israeli Jewish soldiers and civilians will be caught by the “hypothetical enemies”. What do you say when others try to keep theirs “safe” by torturing the Jews and using your methods?

          By the way Albert Camus views contributed to the rise of the philosophy known as absurdism (closely related to existentialism and nihilism).”The Absurd” refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek value and meaning in life and the human inability to find any. Hmmmm some guru of moral…. If Camus approves torture to keep her mother safe, he had logically thinking needed to approve others torturing his mother in order to keep those close to others safe. By the way Camus mother dilemma was caused by the fact that Camus supported the French rule and actions in Algeria during the independence war (one million killed). He was a Pied-Noir (French citizen in Algeria, in a way “morally” close to those who took over Palestine, a settler).

          1. I tried to check if Camus actually defended torture, at it seems that he did not and that he ridiculed reasoning behind inflicting torture in “Fall”. Namely, the torture itself is a proof of guilt as the innocent would not be tortured. And it is very close to what apologists of oppression say, except that THEY do not say it as an example of absurd.

            Camus did not oppose French rule in Algeria but he opposed French actions. The sentence about his mother was in the context of opposition to justify terrorism.

            As far as having dim view on “human tendency to seek value and meaning in life”, in his time, and even today, this tendency had an unfortunate link to atrocities.

          2. Piotr Berman Wikipeadia tells about Camus: “He identified with the pied-noirs such as his own parents and defended the French government’s actions against the revolt. He argued that the Algerian uprising was an integral part of the ‘new Arab imperialism’ led by Egypt and an ‘anti-Western’ offensive orchestrated by Russia to ‘encircle Europe’ and ‘isolate the United States’.[11] Although favouring greater Algerian autonomy or even federation, though not full-scale independence, he believed that the pied-noirs and Arabs could co-exist.”

            So Camus approved French actions in general when he approved French supremacy over Algeria and Algerians. One can not end a very popular revolt aiming to full independence with non violent methods (that is why one million were killed in that Algerian “process”). Equally intellectually dishonest is to approve Israel’s occupation of Gaza, West Bank and Golan, but condemn Israel’s actions in keeping up the occupation. Even a philosopher must understand that creating a situation demands actions and paying the moral price of those actions. If for example Jews want an area to be empty of non-Jews it will mean mass deportations and/or mass killings. Same in the past in Algeria and South Africa. Apartheid is not possible without paying the price of Apartheid. Neither is occupation. Absurd isn’t it?

          3. Albert Camus stated: “Au bout de compte, s’il faut choisir entre la justice et ma mère, je choisis ma mère” (After all, if I have to choose between justice and my mother, I choose my mother”.
            The statement was in a very specific context, that is Albert Camus’s incapacity of taking sides with the Front de Libération Nationale (FLN) during the war of liberation though they had asked him so on various occasions, just as they had asked the Algerian Jews (French citizens since the Décret Cremieux 1870) to side with the uprising. Camus died before Independence, the Jews left with their French ‘fellow countrymen’ though a few stayed in Algeria.
            The statement shows Camus’ hypocrisy: he fought the Germans during the WWII, he fought on the Republican side during the Spanish Civil War (his mother was a Pied Noir of Spanish origin) but when it came to his own people oppressing a native population, he choose to stay silent thus endorsing the status quo.
            Though Camus was born and grew up in Algeria, he spoke neither Arabic nor any Berber language, the native population was always nothing but a ‘décor’ in his novels, and he described Algeria as a country without history.
            Best critique of Camus: “Lettre ouverte à Albert Camus” by Ahmed Taleb Ibrahimi, 1959, from his prison cell in Fresnes outside Paris. Taleb Ibrahimi later became the Minister of Culture of the Algerian Republic.

            The attitude of Camus inevitably makes you think of some Jewish liberals, the famous PEP.

        3. Torture is not a means to get any valuable information, period.

          Phisically stronger and fit individuals will resist it, while weaker persons will confess to just anything in order for the pain to *stop now*. In fact rather then a way to get information torture can be seen as a means of confusing evidence. Torture can not help justice, it can only hinder it.

          Last but not least torture can have devastating psychological effects on torturers themselves.

    2. A “perfect world” is one in which Israel stands behind Doron “The Sodomite Rapist” Zahavi??? In which world are you living?

      BTW, torture DOES NOT work. It does not extract useful information. It extracts lies & distortions that the victim believes the torturer wants to hear. Just as Israel’s vaunted racial profiling airport security system doesn’t bring security, so sodomizing suspects does not bring useful information.

      Leon Panetta has NEVER said torture brings useful intelligence. Never.

      If you want to advocate torture you’re not welcome here. If you do it again, you will no longer be here at all.

      1. What do you mean “Leon Panetta has NEVER said torture brings useful intelligence. Never” this is what LP said in the article i linked to:
        “Enhanced interrogation techniques” were used to extract information that led to the mission’s success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.

        So what now ? are you going to argue that waterboarding isn’t torture ?

        1. So you’re claiming that Obama has approved the use of torture in interrogations? Not that I’m aware. Further, the claim that torture has provided anything of value is confined to members of the former Bush administration.

          Here are some articles from U.S. intelligence officers and political leaders which contradict your claims:


          Not to mention this statement from Panetta which appears to contradict the statement you claim he made shortly after Bin Laden was assassinated:

          …A letter sent to Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) from then-CIA Director Leon Panetta…clearly states that “we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002,” and that “no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts.” Panetta’s version of events is bolstered by a letter released by Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Carl Levin (D-Mich.) earlier this week, which stated, “The original lead information had no connection to CIA detainees.” Feinstein and Levin noted a third detainee in CIA custody did provide information on the courier, but “he did so the day before he was interrogated by the CIA using their coercive interrogation techniques.”

          1. It’s not “my claim” this is what Leon Panetta stated. The Interview he gave is available at the link i provided, you can watch it yourself, and hear it from the the mouth of Leon Panetta himself.

            If you have any further comments or questions i suggest you will forward them to the DOD press desk at (703) 697-5131.

            Between, Panetta as head of CIA has intimate knowledge of what info aided in getting to OBL. He’s also a very honest man (IMO at least) If he said it aided, it probably did.

  2. Pity about the paywall, just means less people outside Israel will read it (even the limited free articles requiring registration). At the least they should have just allowed 10 or 20 free reads a month like the NYT (although 10 is actually rather stingy).

  3. “Brave, determined and wise, understanding the souls of men as well as their weaknesses, refined and cultured…”
    You would think he was talking about Captain George the Tsaddik. Although I would not know what is wise, refined and cultured about sticking…Oh, whatever.

  4. Richard, sorry this is a bit off topic, but it’s about Israeli journalism, so it’s a news tip assuming you havn’t already heard.

    Shmuel Cooper, from the Charedi magazine “Tsofar” (published in Hebrew), called for the assasination of Yaron London. You may recall London wrote a piece for Ynet last week attacking the ultra Orthodox. After receiving complaints Cooper changed the title to “Shrink the existence of Yaron London”. Cooper wrote in response to this:

    Israel needs fewer haredim
    Op-ed: Instead of drafting haredim into army, Israel should focus on shrinking ultra- Orthodox population


  5. I checked the opus of Yaron London, and I hesitate to condemn Haredi writers. London wrote that there should a plan to reduce the number of Haredim because they are parasites, and did not even hint how to do it. Enlist all Haredi girls and give them Norplant? Or simply enlist them and make a law that a spouse can also serve for the other spouse, say for 4 years rather than 2 while the spouse does whatever he/she wishes. With more concrete proposal London would not be accused of hatching some very dark designs.

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