49 thoughts on “Haredi Jews Dress Children as Holocaust Camp Inmates in Jerusalem Protest – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. However, as a female who grew up in an Orthodox family, I do not appreciate the Palestinian Solidarity Movement’s newfound “concern” for the “rights” of Orthodox women. I find their phony concern to be unauthentic and driven by ulterior motives. I curently do not practice and I have a long list of issues with Orthodoxy, but I believe secular Jewish men have done us more harm.

    I come from a unique position and have consistently defended islamic women’s right to don the veil. I hope the Palestinian Solidarity Movement will know their boundaries with us as well.

    1. If Zionists can buddy with Evangelical Apocalyptic Christains, a marriage of convenience, then the Palestinian movements can warm up to the “rights” of Jewish Orthodox women. Did you think that political expediency and hypocrisy are limited to Zionists? What harm have secular Jewish men done to Orthodox women? I’d be interested in hearing about this.

  2. @Gay-Girl. You have a point, but also remember that the Palestinian Solidarity Movement is diverse and even has ex-Orthodox. I would suggest that the movement is larger and more diverse than you think. Since these people tend to be generally more left, most of them come from a background of fighting injustice against women. The people in the movement who are solely focused on Palestine and don’t come from or get involved in other issues – yes, their new-found attention is disturbing, but I think it should be welcomed. One can see the distinction I’m talking about between those in the movement who reject Neturei Karta for being patriarchal oppressors and don’t want anything to do with them, and those who like to stand next to them at protests.

    1. If I thought they had the interests of Orthodox women at heart, then I’d embrace their support. But they seem to have a very superficial knowledge about the role women in Orthodoxy and they see our lifestyle as oppressive and inhibiting. They do not understand that many women choose this lifestyle because they believe it is an alternative to the rampant consumerism and overt sexuality that characterizes our culture.

      And it’s Gay State Girl, not Gay Girl.

      1. While, I am puzzled and irritated by the sweeping generalization about secular men Gay State Girl uses–to no apparent use or purpose–I have to agree that the “solidarity movement”‘s intentions here are hardly respectable. They are drawing attention to the issue because they hate Israel more than they subscribe to human rights. If the solidarity folks were sincere they would also speak out against Hamas and the uncivil conduct of the Palestinian civil authoritites in the West Bank.

  3. “In the Territories, the Haredi settlements and yeshivot produce some of the most virulent, violent perpetrators of murder and violence. These people generally don’t even recognize the secular state as their own. They vastly prefer the creation of a “Torah-true” theocratic state. And they’re not above violent rebellion against the authority of the current state. That’s what price tag violence is all about.”

    You’re definitely mixing things up. The criminals responsible for “Price tag” violence are definitely not Haredim. They are “Datiim-Le’umiim” (national religious)- a completely different thing. The Haredim generally regard the national-religious people as being secular, showing them the same contempt they show us.
    The Haredim don’t seem to really care about the Israeli-Palestinian issue. As long as they get their money – they’ll conform to the opinion of the current government.

    Learn the basics, Richard.


    1. This particular group, however, seem not to be your typical Haredim.

      Rather it appears that these thousand or so protesters are Sikrikim – an anti-Zionist subset therein.

      1. Well, it doesn’t seem that the guys in Beit-Shemesh are Sikrikim. But frankly, I don’t know which “Hatzer” these guys belong to. They do, however, seem like a minority, although the “mainstream” Haredim (Ha Rav Ovadia, for example), do not condemn them.

  4. I agree with what you’re saying Gay Girl. Every woman has a right to be beaten by her husband, if that’s what she wants.

    And to wear whatever she wants in public, because if she doesn’t her husband will beat her.

    They have the right to be spit on if they want. And to sit at the back of the frickin’ bus, if that’s where they think they should sit because if they don’t their husband will beat them.

    These are all inalienable rights — of their husbands.

    The whole orthodoxy v. Taliban thing and their bizarre, degrading customs just reminds the world how little light there is between Jews and Arabs. Children of Abraham. Descendants of Shem. Squabbling Semites. Once Americans start to see that, they will start asking howcome all that tax money is going to them.

    With all of these nukes floating around the question that haunts me is: Chosen to do what?

    BTW, for the Iran watchers among us, Mahmoud still has not come up for air. My bet he either got taken out in one of those recent Mossad hits or he’s in jail.

    Today’s announcement that Iran has constructed a fuel bar should have been a gloat from Ahamadinejad but was from “state TV.” The reaction to Obama signing the bill to lock out Iranian banks was made by Mohammad Nahavandian, the head of Iran’s Chamber of Commerce. The announcement of yesterday’s test of surface-to-air missiles was made by Mahmoud Mousavi. Who?

    Mahmoud is almost certainly dead or detained.

    1. You’re wrong Denis
      I never defended the behavior of organized Jewry. I’d be appreciative if I thought you’re motives for concern for the rights of Orthodox women were genuine, but I can tell they aren’t.
      Many of these gender sgeregation laws were initially designed not only to protect a woman from a man’s lust but to secure the holiness of her prayers and to spare single women the shame of being unmarried.

      You see, the torah teaches that women are more sincere, and therefore, closer to God. For example, many secular Jewsih feminists haave expressed outrage that women are not supposed to wear the yamulke. But the yamulke is actually a gesture of humility. Jewish men wear the yamulke to remind them that God is watching them at all times, and to guide them from temptation. A woman does not need to wear a yamulke; for she already feels God’s presence.

      1. Gay, with all respect, you can’t be serious.

        “Many of these gender sgeregation laws were initially designed not only to protect a woman from a man’s lust but to secure the holiness of her prayers and to spare single women the shame of being unmarried.”

        Are you honestly going to defend these abysmal superstitious practices against women on the basis that they “secure the holiness” of a woman’s prayers. What does that even mean?

        Shame in being a single woman?? What a disgusting thought. If being single is shameful in your reading of whatever holy book you subscribe to, then what about being a gay girl?

        I find absolutely no logic, merit, or beauty in your sentiments. They are disgusting. The back of the bus is the perfect place for women like you. If that’s actually what these Haredi women think, I have no sympathy for them.

        I have sympathy for courageous 8 year old girls and their mothers who strive to live their lives anyway they please without the opprobrium and spittle of a bunch of idiot fanatics.

        I have admiration for the women who plant their butts firmly in the front seat of the bus and tell the creeps with the beards and goofy haircuts to piss off.

        1. I did not defend the actions of the radical Orthodox groups in Beit Shemesh and I do not wish to live under their control. But they are not representive of Orthodox Jews as a whole. Religious zealots of all faiths will take their teachings out of context, that does not mean you should attribute the behavior of a radical sect to the religion as a whole. Maybe I underestimated you and you truly sympathize with women who choose not to fully cover themselves or to sit at the back of the bus, but in another context you would refer to Naama Margolese as a “racist little zionist” or whatever other people are calling her.

          The role of women in the torah is more complex than you care to understand, you casually dismiss everything I say, and this is why I would be hesitant to accept your support.

          I am not gay.

        2. “I have admiration for the women who plant their butts firmly in the front seat of the bus and tell the creeps with the beards and goofy haircuts to piss off.”

          Personally I choose not to follow the Hassidic dress code, but your disdain for their dress does indicate a form of cultural chauvinism.

        3. @GayGirl

          “Personally I choose not to follow the Hassidic dress code . . .”

          Me, too. We’ve found common ground.

          “. . .but your disdain for their dress does indicate a form of cultural chauvinism.”

          I think “goofy haircuts” is a pretty objective assessment. That term doesn’t reflect my view that everyone has a right to cut their hair anyway they choose. In this day and age, half of everyone under 30 has a goofy haircut, and that’s fine. Whatever.

          But for such people to think that their dress, or their traditions, or their beliefs make them a better people than anyone else is not fine. It’s dangerous, which is why I refer to them as “creeps.”

          What appears to you as my “cultural chauvinism” is my disdain of religion. The deeper into religion a person is — meaning, basically the more “fundamental” they are — the greater the proportion of the precious time they have on earth is wasted. Might as well watch TV. I have disdain for people who waste their lives in front of the tube, too. Religion and TV are indistinguishable.

          But — and this is a major “but” — that is everyone’s right to spend their time as they see fit. We are both blessed to live in a time and in places when Haredi or Hassidics or Shia or Sunni or secularists or couch potatoes can do and wear whatever they damn please, so long as what they do or wear is not a danger to the public or public order. I mean banning the burqa in a world where suicide bombers are prevalent may be justified. Banning bikinis on Broadway may be justified. But assaulting a girl in skirt and sweater for walking down the street — any street — is not.

          That’s what these creeps in Beit Shemesh seem not to get — that they must show tolerance before it will be shown to them. How ironic that they would exploit the Shoah in an attempt to convince the world they are the victims here. In 1943 it was the intolerant Nazis who were doing the spitting, not the ones wearing the Juden badges. In that sense, these intolerant Haredi are channeling the Nazis, not the Nazis’ victims.

          I have no earthly idea what you are trying to say with: “but in another context you would refer to Naama Margolese as a ‘racist little zionist’ ” I cannot imagine such a context, and I always capitalize “Zionist.”

          1. Many of the commenters at MW said they lacked sympathy for Naama Margolese because her parents had stolen land from the Palestinians.

          2. What would you prefer to religion? Rampant consumerism and overt sexuality? Religion has done a lot of bad in the world but it has also done a lot of good as well. The Abrahamic faiths, for instance, eliminated a lot of inhumane practices such as infanticide in barbaric societies. Both Judaism and Islam provided their followers with a dietary system that enabled scientific development and promoted a healthy and hygienic lifestyle that allowed them to live longer. A little known fact about Judaism is one of the reasons for not mixing dairy with meat was that it was excessive, unnecessary, and depleted the earth of its resources. An early precursor to modern environmentalism.

            And it’s Gay State Girl (take a wild guess why.)

          3. @BSG

            Having done a post-doc at Harvard and lived in Brookline, my initial guess would be that you misspelled “Bay.”

            And I would agree with you entirely about the beneficial effect religion has had on human health, and hence the preservation of the species, at least major parts of it.

            If you could go back to pre-literate history and see what they were writing, you’d see JP headlines warning folks that God had cursed shellfish and that eating them was taboo. Today we would call it paralytic shellfish poisoning, but 10,000 years ago all they had was superstition; i.e. “my guy in the sky.”

            In spite of our current knowledge of the causes of shellfish poisoning, the superstition became cemented into ritual or tradition or whatever the hell it is that convinces modern day kosher Jews, Shiites, and 7th Day Adventists to avoid oysters. Such people consider “observing” the traditions a virtue irrespective of any health advantages. To each his own. After all, a little self-flagellation never hurt anybody. Others, like myself, consider irrational “traditions” idiocy in view of the information we now have about the way the world works.

            OTOH these religions may still be having a selective effect on human evolution. We now know cervical and throat cancers (RIP, Christopher Hitchens) are, in part, venereal diseases. This is not new, it’s just recently been recognized. 10,000 years ago swingers contracted all sorts of these sexual diseases and died young. Gays must have died at enormous rates from hepatitis alone. Heterosexuals, and particularly those who paired up, did a lot better.

            God was the only casual agent they could think of for why all these loose people were dying. Sodom and Gomorrah were actual places, its just that the reporting was inaccurate. And so for the survivors sexual norms and taboos were born; i.e., my guy in the sky again. i.e., those of us who do or don’t do certain things will be chosen by our guy in the sky to avoid these horrible diseases as a reward.

            Post-penicillin and post-pill, it seemed that all the biological impediments to loose sex were removed. Sorry. My guess is that HIV and HPV are just tips of an ugly viral venereal iceberg and a lot of these 12 and 13 year olds we read about having sex are going to die of cancer and hepatitis before they outgrow Justin Bieber. Is Bieber kosher?

            Arguably fundamentalist sects that promote heterosexuality and monogamy will again play an important role in evolutionary selection. In view of this Haredi lot, the right-wing Christians, and the rabid Shia, it’s a little frightening to think what the outcome of that selection will look like.

            You’re right — I’m laying out a case for kosher agnosticism.

          4. Addendum:

            This AP report indicating where religious tradition takes one. This is a much better analogy to what the Beit Shemesh Haredi are doing than Juden badges:

            Two men have been arrested in central India for allegedly killing a 7-year-old girl and cutting out her liver in a ritual sacrifice to ensure a better harvest, police said Monday.

            Lalita Tati disappeared in October and her dismembered remains were found a week later, Rajendra Narayan Das, a senior police officer in the Bijapur district of Chhattisgarh state, told The Associated Press.

            Police arrested two men, both poor farmers, last week and they told police they killed the girl to appease their gods and get a better harvest, Das said.

          5. A pretty compelling case can be made for religion as the basis for extreme savagery that repeatedly has led to genocide and oppression of well, everybody–not just the usual suspects. The Church’s obstinence in the face of Galileo’s observations set back science, for compounding poverty in many countries by pushing back against birth control, etc. Your assumption, Gay State Girl, that the opposite of that is runaway consumerism and SEX SEX and more SEX lacks any substance. The fact that western capitalism went that direction ignores other paths that secularist perspectives have gone (western Europe in the 50s and sixties, Eastern Europe, with a less succesful end).

            The fact that kashrut saved Jews from the worst of the plague points to an accidental rather than a deliberate advantage that God provided for–the rabbis at the yeshiva where I studied would be pretty clear on that (well, they would say a bit differently but wouldn’t support the idea that kashrut was an early public health protocol). The same goes for your ridiculous claims about women praying separately. Totally wrong.

          6. Many of the Kashrut laws and rituals were arbitrary and based on superstition; from what I am told, shellfish are the cockroaches of the sea. They are forbidden because like pigs, they eat the remains and droppings of other animals.

            The reason for praying separately is to solely focus on prayer.

            I don’t believe the absence of religion results in overt sexuality, but it does not rid the world of evil as some Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens et al would have believe.

          7. from what I am told

            From what you were told by whom? Who’s your rabbi? And why do you spread such nonsense about Jewish belief? You’re an ignoramus. I hate people who want to appear as if they know something when every word out of their mouths exposes their ignorance.

          8. Looks like the Sikrikim have caused problems before.


            Denis, I was just pulling your leg about Haredi dress. I find it hideous as well, at least in the case with men, as did many Jews when the sect was first founded. I would have more credibility if you weren’t Jewish, like when Dawkins suggested that British Hassidim needed to change their dress in order to modernize. It would be easier to accuse him of cultural chauvinism. But I don’t mind of other Jews want to make jokes about Haredim, or non Jews as long as it’s done in good spirits.

            I actuallyhave a different position Israel. Sure Hamas and the PA need to be condemned, but that card has just been way overdplayed and people are fatigued just hearing about it. However, I am not naive about Palestinian Solidarity activists who would have no interest in the rights of Orthodox, or non Orthodox Jewish women, were it not for the current situation in Israel/Palestine.

            Richard, thank you for letting me post on your blog.

      2. What narischkeit. I don’t know who you are but you’re not who you say you are or appear to be. I don’t like the smell of you.

        Jewish women can wear yarmulkes just like Jewish men except in Orthodox Judaism, which you claim not to belong to.

  5. He’s supposed to be traveling to visit those great Latin American liberators — Castro, Chavez, Morales, and Ortega — in the next couple weeks. Let’s see if it’s really him, or if the trip is “postponed.”

    1. I saw a mention of Mahmoud supposedly opening a cement factory late last month — I think it was in the Tehran news. But I would not trust state-run news on this sort of thing.

      And, yes, I saw reference to this scheduled visit to South America. If he’s a no-show, that will pretty well tell us what we need to know.

      But maybe the mullahs are just giving him an “attitude adjustment”, which likely involves electric wires connected to pendulous structures beneath the underpants. In which case he will be smiling when we see him again, but speaking at a higher pitch.

      1. Denis, you sound wistful, which I believe is against the site rules.

        Perhaps Mahmoud is on vacation, as I have been. Don’t lunatic demagogues deserve time off too? (I mean Mahmoud here).

        1. I hope your vacation was relaxing, Randy. I’ve got an idea we’re going need our batteries fully charged to get through 2012.

          Today’s dog/pony threats from Iran have gone up a notch — warning the 5th Fleet to keep its carrier out of Persian Gulf, but Mahmoud is still on “vacation,” if I may borrow your hypothesis. “Out to lunch” might be another way to put it. Or maybe he’s “pushing posies.”

          All of this flack that has been thrown around for the last month surrounding the naval exercises, and not a peep from him. Now a direct threat to the US, and still an underling at the mic.

  6. Yossi Peled, Likud MK, called this protest “insane, irrational, immoral” and said that the blood froze in his veins when he saw the use of Holocaust symbolism in this way.

    Mordechai Hirsch, one of the leaders of Neturei Karta, had young family members who participated in the protest and said: “This protest reflects the Zionists’ persecution of the haredi public, which we see as worse than what the Nazis did.”

  7. Settlers played rather similar “yellow star” scenes while being removed from their Gaza colonies by the IDF.

    Besides. pathetic exploitation of holocaust reminders has long been the bread and butter of Israeli internal brainwash and external Hasbara.

    1. Yes, there is nobody to blame for the tasteless abuse of historical memory and the Holocaust by these people. But let’s not forget that Zionism played and still plays this card for all its worth and that the state itself is responsible for finding and exploiting the media value of the memory of this historical tragedy. The State of Israel itself. In this regard, aren’t these Haredi merely using the currency minted by Israeli propaganda? They may be wackos, but then I am not sure that mainstream Israel is all that sane either.

      A question: If these people do not accept the secular state of Israel, then why should Israel extend citizenship to them? Why not disenfranchise them altogether?

  8. Since when do all people in the world have to have the same dress code?

    Dress codes are enforced in most major cities of the US. Everybody accepts this.

    This group has a stricter dress code. Why does this bother you so much? Makes one more than a little suspicious, you know.

    And as far as using the Holocaust theme — no people, no country in the world has milked the Holocaust for more political hay than the Israeli right wing. Time someone served them a little of their own medicine eh?

  9. That “Jews Against Zionism” group that you linked to are exactly the people who are engaging in this “religious fundamentalism” – their members support and participate in these sorts of protest and much worse.

    They are as fundamentalist as fundamentalist can be.

  10. RE: “This [Haredi] community is by far the fastest growing in all Israel. Birth-rates are through the roof. It’s also by far the poorest, least well-educated…” ~ R.S.

    SEE: Israel’s bizarre decision to give up on education – and its future, by Ami Kaufman, +972 Magazine, 12/03/11

    (excerpt) Last week I came across a disturbing story, one of many recently, where Haredi school boys threw stones at secular Jewish school girls. [because] The schoolgirls were singing. . .
    . . . what bothered me more about this particular incident was the age of the perpetrators. These were young boys or teenagers, already well versed on the issues of female singing and its dangers.
    What this incident shows more than anything else, is the education factor and how it will change this country. And it shows how incidents like the one above are going to happen again, and again and again.
    Much has been said on the demographics of the Haredi community and the pace at which it grows. But not many know of how huge an impact Haredi education already has on this state.
    These Haredi rock-throwing boys learn in a Haredi school.
    That’s because there are four sectors to the Israeli education system: State, State-Religious, Arab, and ultra-Orthodox (Haredi). The major problem with this is that the level of study in the Arab and Haredi schools is much lower than in the state schools. And what makes the problem even worse, is that the level in the state schools themselves has never been lower. . .

    ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://972mag.com/israel%E2%80%99s-bizarre-decision-to-give-up-on-education-and-its-future/28962/

    1. Due to a new Captcha system commenters must fill in the Captcha & have 5 comments approved before their subsequent comments will automatically be approved. I haven’t seen any other comments by you published in my spam or comment queue.

    2. That’s bizarre to the extreme. I am using the latest Google Chrome browser and I see no captcha at all. This latest comment was written moments after my original comment which seems to have been lost. Has this happened to anyone else?

      1. Pea: Can you tell me privately or here whether you’re using a proxy server to post your comments. I’ve noted that your IP address has been used to post spam to the website (not in YOUR name of course) and that it’s also been used by other commenters with different names than yours. I find this bizarre unless you’re behind a proxy server. But it may explain why your earlier comment was lost if it was put into the spam queue.

        1. I’m not using a proxy server at all. But my internet connection is with Bezeq and Hot and I am on wifi in Nachlaot. It’s possible that the IP address bounces around or that others are using my wifi signal. I’m told that I am not guaranteed a fixed IP address but I have no idea who would come into my apartment and use my connection to spam you or comment on your site. Weird! Now I’m curious – feel free to let me know who else has commented using this IP address via email or whatever….

  11. “Dress codes are enforced in most major cities of the US. Everybody accepts this.”

    Say WHAT? Some American cities don’t require you to wear clothes AT ALL. If there is a dress code in Seattle, you don’t see any sign of it.

      1. Richard, you beat me to it.

        Don’t forget the coffee to go. In the Bay Area you also have to have a bike, whether you know how to ride it or not.

  12. arab muslim dont allow
    gay and lesbians
    thee arab gays hide
    in israel so they are safe
    from their arab muslim

  13. Sowwy to wain on the pawade of those who think ‘Mahmoud’ might be pushing up posies, but if you look up Fars News Agency’s website, in both English and Farsi, http://english.farsnews.com/rslt.php?txt=President+Ahmadinejad&asdate=01%2F05%2F2004&todate=01%2F04%2F2012&aor=sh&area%5B%5D=Title&nr=14&srv%5B%5D=0 you’ll see many articles about him, so he’s still around.
    But if the war mongers posture against Iran, bet that Iranian news will cover the Revolutionary Guard and their honking new cruise missiles, and not the civilian president, at this point in time 🙂

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