In the midst of all the spookery and legal maneuverings of the Israeli security apparatus as it lumbers into action against Dirar Abusisi, we should remember the very real human beings in this case and the very real suffering that this is inflicting on them.
Dirar’s brother, Yousef, told me he talked to the former’s youngest daughter, Maria, age 5, yesterday. The girl said to him: “Ask Daddy when he comes home to bring me a Barbie.” It broke my heart to hear this as I have a 6-year-old girl myself. I wanted to buy the Barbie for her, but of course it would be nothing like Daddy bringing it home to her. And keep in mind that her daddy faces years in an Israeli prison for a crime no one knows except his Shabak inquisitors.
A story like this makes me specially angry with irresponsible reporting like that of Der Spiegel, whose scribe dutifully regurgitates a morsel undoubtedly offered to him by an Israeli security reporter who can’t publish it legally under Israeli gag restrictions. The way this noxious system works is Shabak feeds the story to the reporter. He then offers it to Der Spiegel, which dutifully publishes it. Then the Israeli reporter can publish it inside Israel. Is it correct information? Highly unlikely:
Jerusalem may believe that Abu Sisi had information relating to Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier kidnapped four and a half years ago by Hamas, according to another source…Jerusalem has not wholly given up hope of liberating him with a commando mission. But Israeli forces would have to know exactly where he’s held (presumably in the Gaza Strip) — information they appear to be hoping to obtain from Abu Sisi.
Now, Israeli media is reporting this widely as if it were halacha l’Moshe mi’Sinai (God’s law from Moses on Sinai). Haaretz reports it here. Channel 2 news in Israel reports it in Hebrew here. Now you have an entire news cycle devoted to prattering nonsense that distracts from the real issues of this case. It doesn’t matter that Smadar Ben Natan, Dirar’s attorney has refuted the charges soundly. What matters is the torrent of Shalit-related claims that Israelis will hear over that 24 hour cycle.
Keep in mind that this is the third or fourth futile cover story leaked by the intelligence services to justify his kidnapping. Earlier, he was Hamas’ senior rocket engineer under Iranian training. Then he was somehow connected to the weapons ship, Victoria, which Israel intercepted on the high seas with arms supposedly meant for Gaza. Now we have fictional account number three of his secret life as a terrorist.
Israel Radio quotes the spokesperson for the citizen’s group lobbying for Gilad Shalit’s freedom saying that the claim that Abusisi knows anything about Shalit is “spin” from Bibi Netanyahu’s camp, which allows the prime minister to boast about the magnificent strides he’s making on Shalit’s behalf.
Just for the record, Ben Natan says in this Army Radio story:
“I spoke with my client about this matter and he told me that he has no connection nor knowledge concerning Shalit.” She said that he had no connection with the kidnapping of Shalit and he knows nothing of his whereabouts.
“The assumptions that he is affiliated with Hamas are also untrue.” She continued, “the preconceived notions that he has any information pertinent to the security of Israeli have been frustrated throughout this investigation. Now the State is seeking to cover up its error. All this in place of sending him back home and apologizing. Instead they’re looking for something to blame him for.”
To be clear, is it possible there is some nefarious connection Dirar Abusisi has with Hamas or terrorist elements? Yes. But for me to even begin to believe this the security forces will have to do a whole lot better than they have till now. In the meantime, try to remember a little girl who wants a Barbie and her daddy whom she may not see for a very long time.
Among the claims to infamy of Shai Nitzan, the State prosecutor who is trying to throw Abusisi in prison for years, the former charged an Israeli journalist with “insulting a public servant” (yes, that’s apparently a crime in Israel), incitement and invading his privacy. The journalist had published a story about threatening flyers being distributed among the settlements which attacked military officials presumably for their harsh treatment of settlers. So get this, the State charges a journalist with a crime for reporting a story. That’s what you can expect from the likes of Shai Nitzan. And you thought John Yoo was bad when he defended Bush era torture practices?
“Among the claims to infamy of Shai Nitzan, the State prosecutor who is trying to throw Abusisi in prison for years, the former charged an Israeli journalist with “insulting a public servant” (yes, that’s apparently a crime in Israel), incitement and invading his privacy.”
Richard, yet you spin another story… the reporter published the home address of an IDF colonel (http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/1/1689117) for that he’s being prosecuted.
from looking at your own blog, you shouldn’t object that, apparently you banned someone for doing the same thing.
“[Ed., this commenter has been banned for posting this comment which used my real address and the names of two family members (misspelled). This is the baseness of these people I’m sorry to say]”
(https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2011/03/22/death-by-soccer/)
No, it’s you who have spun the story. I’ve read the story & the flyer & don’t see his home address anywhere as you claim. Why don’t you provide an image of what you claim is there. And even if it did, the flyer contained the officer’s information. Breinner published the contents of the flyer.
Not to mention that all stories like this must pass the IDF censor. I’m certain this one did too. If they wanted to prosecute someone it should’ve been the person who wrote & distributed the flyer. You don’t kill the messenger unless you’re not a democracy. And why not prosecute Walla for publishing the story while you’re at it? Or the editor who approved it before it was published?
BTW, I’m not a general in the IDF. So no, I don’t see any reason other than hate or spite that someone would publish my home address. And btw, it’s quite easy to find the home addresses of most Israeli generals & spies. I’ve had them offered to me regularly along with home phone #s. I don’t publish them as a rule.
Obviously you have no idea how the censor works in Israel.
Not every piece of information is being brought to the attention of the censor, but the censor on the chief editors of all different media outlets establish a list of subjects that should not be discussed (this is done during a regular meeting) The censor in addition can instruct the media outlet to refer from publishing different items, and that is done usually using fax, when urgent matters arise, In addition the chief editors are experienced enough to submit some of their new items (those which they consider sensitive) to be approved by the censor (such was the case with Dirar Abu-Sasi
Oh, and i forgot to mention that my source was wikipedia.
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%A0%D7%96%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90%D7%99%D7%AA
also since you are in favor of free speech etc. why am i being moderated ?
I will be in touch with Josh Breiner later today & ask him but I’m reasonably certain that his piece would be sensitive enough that the editor would’ve known to have submitted it to the censor. As to yr source, I don’t want to have to examine a Wikipedia entry. You gave me the link to the original source. Where is the home address there? I don’t see it. I want you to give me the original source in which Breiner exposes the general’s home address. A screenshot of the info would be sufficient. One rule here is that claims must be statements of fact. Don’t bring claims you’ve heard elsewhere here unless you know they are facts & can verify them as such.
As for why you are being moderated: first, you approved of publishing my personal information publicly including that of my wife and child; second, you support the idea that I should lose a potential legal suit and my home; third, you linked to Aussie Dave. If you can publish comments here that follow the comment rules & not be gratuitously mean-spirited then I will remove you fr. moderation.
I will get back to you with the details of Mr. Briner post.
i don’t have it.
the link i provided you was to the definitions of the military censor in wikipedia, so you’ll understand how the censor works.
as for the rest of your spin, I never stated that i favor the publishing of your home address or the names of your relatives, but aren’t you begin a hypocrite (i lost count, which time is it?) ? didn’t you ever published the home address of other bloggers ? those who may not see eye to eye with you ? shall i refresh your memory ? “Eastside Midtown condo (330 East 57th Street)”
so i support being fair, and if you let yourself publish the address of other bloggers, why do you oppose yours from being publish ? one set of rules for the world, and another set for Richard ? If you stand for truth and values, and your values let you publish others addresses, at least be fair and square.
do i support you being sued ? absolutely. You claimed that Yerushalmi diverted from what is the norm within the inner Jewish debate by suing you, he claimed that your claims have no merit, and in his opinion you were rude and deviated from the norm within the inner Jewish debate.
Libel is a serious allegation Richard,You claim his racist, the ultimate place to settle that is the court house, where your freedom of speech would be tested, and boundaries will be applied.
do I want you to lose your house ? NO i don’t, apparently you have a wife and a xxxxxx [ed., post edited to protect privacy], and they shouldn’t be put in the street. I Hope that you will come to your sense admit to your faults and settle this issue out of court (though i doubt you would be able to achieve that without apologizing)
if you will not and in case you will lose (and i suspect you will) i hope that Yerushalmi be honorable enough to settle for the fact that he won, and will collect $1.
You think i am mean spirited for supporting that ? i don’t think so.
You claimed i linked to Aussie Dave, and you are right, but i read carefully your comment rules, and guess what Aussie Dave isn’t listed as a site to which you don’t want people to link.
At least be honest, you are moderating me because you don’t like what i have to say. I have been polite enough though i displayed hard critic of your analysis, and you found that to be embarrassing.
I don ‘t understand why you need to get back to me w proof of yr claim. Either you have it or you don’t. Which is it? Or do you need to get back to Hasabara Central because they neglected to provide you with Talking Point 563.7?
And why do you think I need a lesson fr. you or Wikipedia about how the censor works? I know the ground rules far better than you seem to realize.
That’s not totally true now, is it? You stated that I was a hypocrite for banning the idiot for broadcasting my home address & names of my wife & child. In the minds of reasonable people that means you support what he did. You can dress yr comment up any way you like. But in the end you supported what he did.
You use the plural. Besides Pam Geller, who we’ll talk about in a bit, who else are you referring to? If you don’t have any further examples, this is again an example of imprecision which is bad news in debate or argument. If you have multiple examples bring them. If not, you don’t make it appear that I’m a serial violator of some rule you’ve made up.
As for Pam Geller, you can’t be serious. The addresses of her properties were published before I did. She invited public scrutiny by allowing her condo to be featured in the NYT profile. Because of death threats against me & scandalous statements which exploited my children I would never do an interview in my home let alone consent to having it photographed.
I did not publish the names of her children (though they were featured again in the NYT profile) as this idiot did one of mine.
Anyone who supports my being sued will never escape moderation here. It’s frankly astonishing that you would support my being materially harmed by a lawsuit & in the same breath complain you are being moderated. Are you for real?
You seem unaware of American democracy so let me teach you. The ultimate forum to determine political truth is NOT the courtroom. It is the open society, political arena & media where ideas are argued & tested. Only bullies like Yerushalmi & the like need to resort to court because they yearn to punish their enemies by harming them & their families in whatever way they can. This is the behavior of the tyrant or despot. Someone who needs to stifle speech with which they disagree.
As a SUpreme Court justice said, the cure to bad ideas is not less speech, but more. So if my ideas are bad, Yerushalmi is perfectly welcome to reply here or elsewhere & state why. Because his are bad, I’ve taken to the internet to tell the world why I think this is the case. You don’t need a court to regulate speech or decide whether ideas are wrong or right. That’s not the American way, not the way of democracy. BTW, it’s no accident that Yerushalmi threatens to sue me and rejects the contemporary notion of American democracy (which he views as made by and for the rabble). He believes in his speech, but not the speech of those with whom he disagrees.
You’ll notice I don’t go to court to prevent all the nonsense and lies written about me.
Not entirely true now, is it? You expressed a wish that he win a $100K judgment against me, which would force my family to lose our house. Ergo, you support my losing our house. Once again, you’re attempting to refine yr statements after the fact instead of standing by them as you would if you were honest & straightforward.
I have not given you permission to mention my children & certainly not their age & you will not do so. You will not invade my privacy or that of my children. If you pull a stunt like that again you’ll be gone in less than a heartbeat. Do you understand.
You’re wasting yr breath & as far as I’m concerned yr wasting everyone else’s time in this thread. You’re talking utter narischkeit & I frankly find it offensive & have lost patience. I have done no fault in this matter and if it comes to court it will be tested there. No more on this subject from you. Move on to another thread.
Well, we’ve established another fact, that you don’t know David Yerushalmi. This is not a symbolic act for him. He wants to ruin his enemies. You simply don’t understand who he is.
Let’s put it this way. There are several posts in which he threatens to sue me & I reply. Next time, you want to quote a right wing website which takes pot shots at me you might want to Google this blog site to see what previous disgusting things were written about me there. I’m not fond of links to sites which drag my reputation through the gutter & lie about my views. And frankly, I think the idea of publishing a comment at someone’s website to a post which trashes them shows a profound lack of derech eretz. If your goal was to trash me, then I could understand why you did it. And I think that was your goal. But I just don’t understand why anyone would waste their time doing that. It shows you & I have far different values (thank God).
Yeah, I guess so. I don’t like people who support violation of the privacy of my children & who would like someone to sock me with a $100K judgement. I’m funny that way, I guess. I don’t have any problem w. yr political views & you can spout them till the cows come home & you wouldn’t be moderated. But if you want to make it personal, then sure you’ll be moderated & my comment rules (regarding personal attacks) make that crystal clear.
YOU embarrass ME? You’re only embarrassing yrself my friend by making false claims about Josh Breiner’s report & not being able to support them, among other things. Not me.
Then how come ive been moderated for a few months?
How come uve stopped posting all of my responses lately?
Now, he didn sue u, did he? So whats the big deal?
As ive already asked – are you REALLY surprised david yerushalmi is not here? How long would have it taken u to moderate and ban him, in the name of the freedom of speech u bring up every 5 lines? a day? 2 days?
You’re quiet the biggest hypocrit ive ever seen. The fact that u talk about freedom of speech and democracy, and 2 lines later explain why someone who wants u to get sued will remain moderated prooves just that. I guess in ur democracy people dont have the right to accuse / suspect u in anything.
Yerushalmi wants to SILENCE me & others. YOu don’t seem silent to me. You write thousands of words worth of comments & I haven’t banned you, which WOULD silence you here.
Because I’m beginning a trial in 3 days, am trying to make life easier for Dirar Abusisi, & because a new party has threatened me with a lawsuit. As hard as it may be for you to believe, hearing yr views aren’t my highest priority. At least not right now.
He said he would. That’s close enough for me.
The goal of this blog is not to see how many people can accuse me of things. The goal is to have a free spirited debate about ideas while maintaining a semblance of precision & accuracy about arguments & claims. In my book, that doesn’t mean people should be accused of anything unless they violate these guidelines (as you do fairly regularly).
BTW, people really hate carping & whining. Why don’t you tone it down a bit & just argue yr pt. YOu’d have a lot more influence here than you do.
Really, then you’ve led quite a sheltered life.
Awww missed this one. 5th rule of democracy?
Now its even more special, because its americas democracy. Democracy created by a person who thought blacks were inferior to whites on a physical-racial level (mr thomas jefferson – if u wondered who im talking about).
Im sure when he and others who worked with him thought about “American democracy” they had ur blog in mind as a role model.
You writee a blog dedicated to trashing. Just read ur last post about new shabak head. Whats that if not trashing? Flattering review?
Some of us dont want to open blogs just for that, but it doesnt mean you have more “derech erez” than anyone else here. The only difference between yr trashing , dons and mine is that u open ur own site for it. Wow that makes it way more מכבוד.
Do you *really* thinks anyone treats your moderation rules seriously? Should i copy paste again all the times u called other liers/stupid/ignorant and what not? By ur own logic u should have moderated urself ages ago.
You really should consult someone on the disonance between ur preaching about “Democracy” and ur behavior on an every day level.
Which is precisely what you believe about Arabs. The only diff. is that Jefferson, if he believed this, of which I’m not certain, believed it in 1811 & you believe it in 2011.
I guess you’re in the minority on that. Besides, what do I trash? Occupation? Guilty. Violations of human rights? Guilty. Targeted killings? Guilty. I’ll trash injustice any day of the week & stand tall for it. What I do not trash is my vision of an Israel that is truly a light unto the Jewish nation & all nations. That’s not the Israel that exists right now.
For a flattering review of the new Shabak chief all you have to do is open any Israel newspaper including Haaretz. My goal is not to add to the echo chamber. My goal is the tell you the Emperor has no clothes (when he doesn’t).
I do.
I’m personally offended by people like Don who spout nonsense claiming Breiner’s report exposed the home address of the local IDF commander when I’ve now determined through Breiner himself that he did nothing of the sort. So yes, I will be angry with people who spout nonsense & don’t bother to discover whether something is true before they report it. And if I tell you something is true factually & it turns out not to be I’ll tell you that, unlike Don.
Care to back up this with a quote? You really really should learn what racism is, richard. besides, what does it have to do with what i said?
Yes, this is the goal, but it is unreachable when u favor people like der yassin with her quotes about syrian eldery, or someone who wrote here “zionists are really good at butchering”.
Its unreachable when u constantly attack othera or misquote them just to show they are idiots, and then surprised someone does the same to you too.
Its also unreachable when those “guidliness” are based on ur interpreation of the world and peoples views, by which im a racist and shai, for example, is a “centralist”.
Ive never written anything extrra-revolutionary here. My only big claim was that there is a reason our neighbours are poor, and it lays in the way their culture develoepd differently from ours. This (which is something every history student would agree with) got me moderated in ur “free debate about ideas”, together with a dozen responses in which i was called ignorant and stupid. If u cant grasp something like that without getting so furious – what kind of ideas to u expect to “debate”? Whats the best way to boycotte israel?
I think people hate ad-hominem responses to anyone who disagrees with u as much as they hate my whining.
Writing that i think theres a reason why people in egypt are poor is not whining. Attacking me personally because u dont have any explanation to what i asked also doesnt give u more credit in the eyes of anyone, Richard.
The difference between you and me is that i am NOT trying to influence the world at all, while youre trying to fix it.
You’ve said here explicitly that Arab culture is backwards. Surely you’re not going to argue that you don’t believe Israeli culture is superior to Arab?
I have no idea what this means. I don’t favor Deir Yassin. In case you didn’t notice, I interact in the comment threads very little with those who generally share my views. I interact much more with those who don’t. So saying I favor her is ridiculous.
You’re put quotes around a phrase which I don’t believe has ever been written in these comment threads. I want you to find that quote & provide me a link to it. I don’t think it exists.
Again I think you’re confusing “misquote” with “mischaracterize.” I don’t misquote people. But you may disagree with my characterization of yr views. But that’s entirely diff. than saying I misquote them, which I don’t.
This is about the 19th time you’ve whined & moaned about my comment rules. So here’s a new rule just for you. No more whining about them. If you don’t like ’em make up yr own & start yr own blog.
Shai is a liberal Zionist, not a “centrist.”
Now, there you go again making preposterous claims not based in fact or reality. Every history student isn’t racist as you are. So no, not every one, not even most would agree that Arabs are poor because they’re culturally inferior or whatever nonsense you’re peddling. So STOP PEDDLING IT. I’ve warned you already 3 or 4 times.
Sure you are. YOU’re trying to weigh in in the world hasbara battle on behalf of truth, justice & the superior Israeli way of life.
And it has to do with racism what exactly? Have i ever said anyting about race or something else which is determnistic and cannot be changed? Really not my fault u have ur own defenitin of racism in ur imgainary black and white world, of bad hasbarits like myself and good people like u.
i wish everythign in life was so easy, Richard
here:
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2011/03/24/is-it-war/comment-page-1/#comment-215815
Yes ur right, i misquoted him. He said “defencless people” and i gave us zionists too much credit by simply saying “butcherting”.
Funny, cause in some other thread u told him he isnt and claimed hes not a lefty either. Should i go and look for exact quote again? At least be persistent with ur opnions.
Claiming one culture is superior to another IS racism. That’s the very definition of the term. So now that you’ve tacitly admitted that you DO view Israeli culture as superior to Arab you’ve defined yrself as a racist.
Sorry, but that doesn’t get you out of yr dilemma as I wrote above. There is NO superiority of Israeli culture or anything to Arab culture. While it may be true that Israel’s economy is more successful than some Muslim countries, Turkey’s is doing quite nicely & disproves yr claims. The fact that you claim that you believe Arabs can “improve” & are not eternally sentenced to cultural darkness itself has no bearing on whether you are a racist. It just makes you less of a racist than the Kahanist who believes that Arab culture is INNATELY & eternally inferior to Israeli.
You are right, you misquoted him & left out 2 important words in the quotation that probably would’ve made me at least research the quote before making any claim that it wasn’t written here. I regularly warn people who use similar terms and would’ve done so had you not jumped in with yr snarky, abusive reply. Next time someone publishes something like that, if you merely request me to take a position on it & don’t reply w. snark I will do so. And btw, there are hundreds of comments here I never publish which contain similar or worse claims against Zionism. Those you don’t see.
I told Shai that he isn’t a leftist and he isn’t. I never said that he isn’t a liberal Zionist because that is precisely what he is.
Because, that number is wrong as well. I posted literacy stats noting over 70% literacy in Egypt. So yr first claim was wrong. You 2nd higher claim was wrong as well. I don’t have time here to publish claims that are based on faulty facts esp. when you constantly publish such claims. I really have better things to do than babysit your comments.
No, over 70% is NOT a “very low percentage.” It’s a rate that could & should be higher & will rise in the future. But not “very low.”
One of those great unwashed Egyptians, a product of that benighted, inferior culture you bemoan happened to have won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1988.
That’s precisely why they experienced the recent revolution which should free the economy & society to compete on the world stage. Israel better be careful. If the Arab Spring really succeeds there will be a number of countries competing with them over the next decade who will be waiting to eat her lunch. Turkey for sure. Palestine, if Israel ever releases its clutches around its neck.
Ah, Turkey. Always Turkey lurks to disprove you.
I have absolutely no interest in providing a theory why Israel’s economy outproduces those of some other Arab & Muslim countries just as I have no interest in theorizing why it outproduces Latin American or some Asian countries. I leave this speculation to those who have a need to focus on such things in order to prove the alleged superiority of Israeli society.
NO! Again, just because Palestinians have a stronger economy or higher standard of living than say Arabs in Syria or Egypt says NOTHING about the “superiority” of its culture. Economies are things that always are in flux. Look at China 30 yrs ago. Poverty was endemic. Famine a common occurrence. Compare the past to now. That doesn’t mean that Egypt, Syria, etc. will go the way of China in the future. But if they create more open, democratic systems they will.
Further, if Israel itself were to become a fully democratic nation which empowered ALL its citizens to compete, it too would have a vastly stronger economy (even if you believe it is doing well now).
This is no different than Bibi using Iran as a common enemy for all Israelis to hate. All demagogic leaders whether their name be Assad or Netanyahu (or Bush) need such enemies & invoke them to unify the nation under the banner of hate & fear. Israel does this just as often & as well as any Arab country.
No again. If I saw everything in b & w then I would talk in the language of “Zionist butchery,” which I don’t. I do use terms like “massacre” and the like, but I always make clear that I’m blaming Israeli policies, the Israeli military, Israeli leaders. You seem to miss the nuance which isn’t surprising.
Funny how I was just thinking the same thing about you…Must be ESP.
You ARE probably wasting your time. But not for the reasons you claim.
I remind you that you are still under a 3 comments a day limit. Pls. adhere to that. In addition, please limit the length of yr comments to no more than 200 words each.
“The Zionists are really good at butchering defenceless people”
not only the sentence was said, you actually supported it.
your memory is extremely short Richard combined with extremely high hypocrisy it’s lethal.
traducteur says:
March 24, 2011 at 5:10 AM
Hardly war, more like an imminent massacre. The Zionists are really good at butchering defenceless people, however cowardly and incompetent they may be when faced with capable, determined opponents.
Reply
y says:
March 25, 2011 at 1:38 AM
True words of wisdom, in the spirit of “precise and accurate” claims the owner of this blog loves so much.
I am a progressive (critical) Zionist.
Hey, richard, traducteur just claimed u r really good at butchering defencless people – unless u no longer consider yourself a zionist, of course. I hope it makes u feel proud!
Reply
Richard Silverstein says:
March 25, 2011 at 10:14 PM
No, I think he was thinking of ZIonists like you.
You’re a liar. I did NOT support his words. I do not agree w. his statement & NOTHING in my reply indicates my approval of the original statement. But Y’s reply was so full of snark it deserved a similar reply, which is what I offered.
You WILL NOT manipulate, distort or otherwise mangle my views. You will state them precisely & support any claims you make about them. You have not done so & are on very thin ice. If you violate this rule again you may find yr privileges further restricted.
Regarding Josh Beiner’s report on the West Bank settler flyers, the reporter himself says you were DEAD WRONG in claiming he published the IDF officer’s home address. The original flyer did expose his home address but Walla excised the address fr. the flyer before publishing it. You offered a link to the Walla story along with the flyer & as I told you it didn’t contain the home address. I asked you three times to provide proof of your claim. Then I asked Josh about it.
Not only that, but Beiner received a letter of sincere apology from the police commander supervising the investigation explaining that the matter was an error.
You owe Josh Beiner an apology. And as I already told you of your error privately and you said you would admit yr mistake & haven’t done so, I take this as extremely bad faith.
I don’t know whether your views & the way you express them are deliberately mendacious or whether it’s a result of extreme sloppiness or laziness on yr part. But this is precisely what I like least about hasbarists like you. You simply don’t have command of your arguments or the facts. You present them in a sloppy manner. You make claims that are sweeping, but turn out to be either false or overblown. A little more humility, a little less overstatement would help you & make yr arguments more convincing.
But there is little hope that you will mature or improve yr mode of argument, which only makes it easier to refute you.
My quote wasnt wrong, and u can see it right here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate
Really not my fault u cant afford urself clicking a link, and even 70% is a VERY low standart, judging by other countries.
Also, One nobel prize winner doesnt really change the picture, just like few rich peoplein china (even few thousands or few hunderd of thousands) dont make the other millions seem less poor.
When u write about the possible democratizaion of syria u seem to forget political regime and the way it has developed also shows u quiet alot about a countrys culture. Of course they can change, but the question why they havent so far, and why they havent developed any democratical traditions (even on the level of israel u love to mock so much) is a legitime one, even if u dont like it.
Richard, the fact that u dont write “butchery” only shows u r abit more polite than the guy i quoted. Notice what u wrote “I dont … but i always make clear that I’m blaming Israeli…”. So what exactly did i miss? You divide the world into bad israeli hasbarists and their leaders, and good people, just like i said.
You claimed that Egypt’s poverty & illiteracy meant that it didn’t have a literary tradition worth speaking of, which is a false claim. Just as you falsely claim that Egyptian & Arab culture in general is inferior to Israeli.
Israel developed from western models & its inhabitants (at least those who determined its form of government) immigrated largely from western countries & brought those traditions with them. Latin American too didn’t have democratic traditions to speak of until the 1980s & 90s & most countries in the region are now democratic. THese things take time to develop.
You butchered what I said. That’s what you missed. You put an ellipsis after “Israel” thus excising the very meaning of what I wrote. I don’t blame Israel. I blame Israeli policies, policiticians, army. And don’t use ellipses to corrupt the full meaning of what I say. There’s a difference.
We’re not going to argue any further about Arab culture or who’s culture is better or Egypt’s literacy rate. Move on to another topic. I won’t give you another warning.
@ Y)
“When u favor people like der [sic] yassin with her quote of Syrian elderly”
You are so full of self-pity ! This is simply pathetic. How old are you ? 15 ?
You have one time after another told us how backwards Arabs and Arab culture are in your opinon, ‘proving’ it with the economic and material ‘superiority’ of Israel. And I don’t have the right to respond that maybe Arabs, taking the example of the Syrians, are poorer, but they have other values, such as not abandoning their elders in a nursing home ? Your index of development is purely economic, well, mine isn’t.
“Probably a big waste of time, but at least I’m doing it mostly while drinking the morning cup of coffee”
Well, you’re drinking a hell lot of morning coffee then ! You better slow down, it’s not good for the heart.
By the way, you do know that the Arabs brought coffee to the “Western” world from Ethiopia, don’t you ? And if you want to read about the negative effect of caffeine on the heart, read Ibn Sina’s “The Canon of Medicine” (al-Qânûn fi al-Tibb), a 14-volume medical encyclopedia, completed in 1025, and used in European universities for more than 500 years. You know, one of those backwards Muslims. Enjoy your ‘coffee’ – it comes from the Arabic word ‘qahwah’ 🙂
@ Y)
Just in case you missed the irony, and you probably did: Ibn Sina (Avicenna) of course did not write about caffeine in his medical masterpiece …
I wanted to respond when you wrote on the literacy rate in the Arab countries, but then I dropped it. I see you insist on their ‘backwardness’ so just a few lines. I suggest you read a little bit about Tunisia. The literacy rate is 98% among the younger generation, women are over-represented in nearly all higher educations. After independance, Bourguiba introduced the “Code de Statut personnel” that gave more rights and freedom to women than most countries in Southern Europe concerning divorce, abortion etc., and the fertility rate is lower than many European countries.
You should go there to take a look of your own. They don’t eat Jews !! Try to find some of your fellow Jews: they’ll tell you about their country that they love dearly. After the Tunisian Revolution, the Jewish Agency proposed a huge amount of money to all Tunisian Jews who would to leave the country for Israel. That would have been just perfect: another ‘expulsion of Jews from the Arab world’. The leader of the Jewish community in Djerba, Trabelsi Perez, had very strong words on the Israeli attempt of encouraging the emigration:
http://www.la-croix.com/afp/static/pages/110329131425.vt7ueitp.htm
Sorry, I didn’t find anything in English. Just to prove that I’m not lying.
Insch’allah, Tunisia is going to be the first democracy in the Arab world, and hopefully
Sorry, the link is broken. It’s even more specific here – you don’t have to undertsand French to understand:
http://www.webmanagercenter.com/management/article.php?id=103893
I’d be thankful if you didn’t falsely define what I am, as you’ve got both things wrong. I’m not a Zionist, and I AM a leftist. You should keep to yourself the irrelevant nuances that somehow make you think that I am not one.
Shai, look you can’t demand that someone not discuss yr political views when you expose them to the world here. If you do that then I’m going to characterize them if I disagree with them. Your views are NOT leftist. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not even close. What you don’t understand is that a progressive outlook is a broad one that incorporates many issues & a world view. You can’t have slightly left wing views on a limited set of issues & have right wing or centrist views on the majority of other issues & still call yrself a leftist. What I would call you is PEI, Progressive Except Israel.
Y,
In a comment to me on another post, you briefly mentioned the effect of colonialism on the Middle East. I think you should take that further and consider how the former colonial powers hampered (often deliberately) the economic development of the Arab world. In spite of the paternalistic sentiments expressed in Kipling poems, the purpose of colonialism was to benefit the colonisers, and for this to happen the political, cultural, and economic capabilities of the colonised had to be neutered. Sadly, the USA and the former colonisers of Europe retain the power to do that – although thankfully that power is diminishing. You keep making the mistake of assuming that all countries start out on an equal footing, and that failure to thrive economically is due to the limitations of the particular cultures involved. It’s more complicated than that.
In the West Bank, interestingly enough, the most deprived communities are the ones that place the most significant emphasis on education. As the director of the Phoenix Centre in Deheishe refugee camp once said to me, “We educate our youth because that is all we have to give them. Education, education, more education.” The unemployment rate is painfully high, so the children are learning just for the sake of knowledge – there is no guarantee that they will have a solid profession at the end of it. But at least they are enriching their minds and coming to a deeper awareness of who they are, both as individuals and as a nation. The Israeli army finds this so subversive that when they make incursions into the camp one of the first things they do is to block off the schools.
Deliberate disruption of schooling has been common for a long time. During the intifada years, almost every school in Bethlehem was closed by military order. The people had to form home schooling collectives (often scrambling over one another’s roofs as they were forbidden to use the streets) just so that their children’s education could go on. And some remarkable achievements have been born from these hardships, but you are unlikely ever to come across them, because a.) Palestine might as well be on the moon for what you know its culture and b.) you have no appreciation for how hard these people have to fight just to do what you take for granted. If you had to walk four hours to school every day, as the children of Tuba do; if your journey there was overshadowed by the fear of settler attacks; if the exhaustion of stumbling over the rocky hills on shaking legs made you likely to fall asleep at your desk; if you knew that you were unlikely ever to get to university simply because of the restrictions the military places on your movement; if in addition to studying you had to help your family work the land for the sake of getting fed…would you take kindly to people blaming your lack of educational achievement on culture? Or would you say to them, “Look, in spite of what is being done to me, I walk those four hours, I refuse to let my fear of the settlers keep me away from my books, I sleep fewer than five hours a night so I can get my homework done, and what I lack in knowledge, I make up for in spirit?” Deir Yassin is right; GDP is no measure of a culture’s worth. The GDP of Nazi Germany was higher than that of pre-war France, but are you honestly going to claim that pre-war France was uncultured?
Sumud (courage/dignity/steadfastness) is at the cornerstone of Palestinian life. If only it weren’t illegal to teach the poetry of Mahmoud Darwish in Israeli schools, you might have had a taste of it. If only the Israeli curriculum didn’t exclude Palestinian educational material, you might have encountered Emile Habiby’s literature, Mohsen Subhi’s music, Edward Said’s political thought, Hatim Kaananeh’s significant contributions to public health, Suad Amiry’s feminism, and a whole host of other things. The good news is that it’s not too late to discover them. 🙂 I’d be happy to talk with you more about Palestinian culture once you’ve actually experienced it.
Richard,
I don’t like using descriptors such as ‘leftist’ or ‘centrist’ for people, as I find them two-dimensional and lacking in nuance, so I’m not going to comment on who qualifies as left-wing or not. From my perspective, a willingness to think reflectively and critically is the most important thing that you can bring to political peace activism, and Shai has this. As for Zionism, he is definitely not Zionist. I was able to talk to him about this issue without feeling any urge to push him off the Jerusalem ramparts, and that has to count for something.
@ Shai)
If you’re not a Zionist, then I suppose you’re positive to the Palestinian Right of Return as defined by the Resolution 194 (dec 1948), i.e. ALL Palestinians and their descendants have the right to ‘return to their homes and live in peace with their neighbours’ ?
He supports the right of return and he’s said so here on more than one occasion. In the last argument about his leftist credentials, he wrote, “When did I ever say I opposed their return?? In fact I support it & compensation for their misery.” Nor does he cling to the idea of a Jewish-majority state, which is also integral to Zionism.
I disagree with Shai on several counts, but I’m mystified as to where people get the idea that he’s a marshmallow Zionist.
@ Vicky)
You’re probably right. I still think I prefer Shai to answer for himself.
As for being a ‘marshmallow Zionist’, I never said anything like that about Shai. But in fact, as with your questioning my response to “Y” based on various statements of his on the ROR, my memory goes back more than a few comments.
Are these supposed to be mutually exclusive? I wasn’t aware. First, let me clarify what I mean when I say I’m not a Zionist. This doesn’t mean I have a problem with Zionism. I simply don’t share the view that Jews have some inherent right to a country in the land of Israel. However, I’m completely fine with Jews who believe otherwise and it is their right to believe so. The world has already decided it’s okay for Jews to have a country in the land of Israel. I like Israel and I don’t want to see the country forcibly changed into something else dictated by anti-Zionist ideologies. I want the occupation to cease and for an agreement to be reached with the Palestinians. As for the Palestinians’ right of return, I recognize their right. However, I think it is unrealistic for a number of reasons for millions of Palestinians to return to the modern state of Israel. Since I do not see this as a plausible possibility (let’s leave that out of the discussion), I do think they deserve compensation.
Are we clear about my views now? 🙂
Shai’s answer makes clear (at least to me) that he’s a Zioinst & also that he doesn’t support the Right of Return as most Palestinians would define it. So while Vicky is very decent & trying to see the best in people (for which I admire her), I think she’s giving him the benefit of the doubt which, in this case, he doesn’t deserve.
Deir Yassin,
You were right to challenge Y on what he said; the things he was writing were both racist and historically inaccurate. But at that point I hadn’t seen anything from him to suggest that he objected to the right of return specifically (although his other views made it likely) and I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. This is especially true when those people disagree with me, as I know that if I mischaracterise their views even once, it will only make it harder to talk with them afterwards. We can’t afford to lose chances for dialogue.
You’ve been reading Tikun Olam for a lot longer than I have, so I expect you do remember problematic comments from people. I’ve noticed a few as well. People can be self-contradictory, but that is often a sign that they are asking questions and perhaps struggling to reconcile current knowledge with what they have imbibed from the society around them. I am reluctant to label people’s politics based on this, as labels applied in such circumstances can have a fossilising effect – they don’t show how people arrive at their basic positions, the process they go through as they learn, etc.
‘Marshmallow Zionism’ is my own preferred descriptor for liberal Zionism. I didn’t mean to imply that you had used the phrase.
Shai,
Zionism and the Right of Return are mutually exclusive, as at the core of Zionism is the belief in a Jewish-majority state. If the RoR were to be implemented, that Jewish majority would probably cease to exist. As for the world having decided that it’s OK for Jews to have a state in Israel, it has…but it has also upheld the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. If you’re going to use global opinion to support one point, then you need to consider global opinion on the second. The two aren’t easy to reconcile; one will have to be given up. RoR is essential to people’s dignity and basic quality of life, whereas Zionism is not – if anything it erodes those things. A racist ideology is of no benefit to anyone, so why uphold the rights of other people to be racist and to inflict the consequences of their views on others?
A genuinely democratic country that upheld refugee rights and supported equality for all its citizens would be a better place to live than a state that tries to cling onto its ‘Jewish character’ through ethnic cleansing. For Israel to become such a place, it would have to change very radically. But there is no reason why such a change would have to be forcible (it couldn’t be – you can’t force people to see others as human beings) and certainly no reason for it to be unpleasant.
“I think it is unrealistic for a number of reasons for millions of Palestinians to return to the modern state of Israel. Since I do not see this as a plausible possibility (let’s leave that out of the discussion), I do think they deserve compensation.”
It’s just as well that you didn’t qualify your rejection of Zionism with this when I asked about it, as this is the kind of thing that does get people pushed off ramparts. Or at least put in indefinite administrative detention in the Imad Bookshop. I will restrain myself from writing an essay here, but can we discuss it at some point?
Sure, I will gladly discuss it.
@ Shai)
“Are we clear about my views now ?”
I’m sorry. I don’t know how this thread turned into an auto-da-fé 🙂
Yes, I’m clear on your views, and to me, you’re definitely a Zionist 🙁 – maybe rather a post-Zionist, but a Zionist. And I’m of course talking about political Zionism and not the cultural Buber/Magnes/Ahad HaAm one.
As far as compensation is concerned: I don’t know any Palestinians who would accept direct compensations. It’s like saying: “I raped you, and while raping you I teared up your dress. Here’s money to buy a new one !” :-)) Well, my analogy is maybe far out. I was inspired by Shlomo Sand on Israel as the product of rape, though he never mentioned the raped woman (i.e; the Palestinians) in his metaphore, only that a child (Israel) conceived through rape has the right to live.
The Palestinians should have the choice of returning home, and in case they don’t, compensations should be paid. But without the choice, no compensation would be accepted. It’s a matter of karâmah (‘dignity’), a well-known concept in the Middle East where Israel happens to be situated.
“Are these supposed to be mutually exclusive. I wasn’t aware”
No, Zionism and the ROR are not mutually exclusive. In fact, some Zionists are positive to the ROR, but no one can claim to be a “Non-Zionist” and be against the ROR. I think that’s pretty clear …
For the sake of multiculturalism in the Middle East, Israel will choose to ignore this concept and do what she believes is best for her future. 😉
Huh? “must pass the idf cenzor”? “all stories lie this”? What is like “like this”? Involving army high ranked officers?
Do you have even the slightless clue how the cenzorship works in israel? Hint: you can read here:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%A0%D7%96%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90%D7%99%D7%AA
So no, the cenzor here doesnt really care for such stories. Sorry, again you prove how little u know about israel.
The 3rd or the 4th rule of democracy a-la mr silverstein ive counted in the last few weeks. I wonder how many more are there out there.
You possess an amazing level of blindness to the way things work in yr own country. There are written rules & then there are the ways those rules are interpreted & enforced. THe written rules constrain the censor from placing its heavy hand on the Israeli media. But the reality is quite different. Both censorship & gag orders place an enormous burden on the Israeli media & prevent the Israeli public fr. learning routine things that are taken for granted in other countries.
What a ridiculous story. If Abusisi actually knew anything about Shalit’s location, Hamas would have moved him on hearing Abusisi had been captured.
And you know that they didn’t exactly do that because…?
I don’t, but it does indicate that the Israelis are lying when they claim this has anything to do with Shalit. Far too much time has passed for this story to be believable.
It seems like elementary common sense unless those holding Shalit want to have his location exposed & an IDF commando attack to free him.
Actually, if the information published in Spiegel is true, it casts Israel in a very unflattering light (I’m using an understatement here).
If Abu Sisi was not involved in any act of hostility against Israel and merely *may* have some knowledge on the whereabouts of Shalit, how can that justify his abduction and criminal prosecution in a state where he has never resided?
God knows what charges will be officially filed against Abu Sisi, but if the Spiegel story is a Mossad spin, it tells quite a lot about the disdain of law by both that agency and the public for which the spin was intended.
It would be well to note that all of the foregoing could be included in the long list of symptoms so characteristic of this Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
A new Shabak appointment, another Palestinian detainee, another air strike, another death, another day. All these are but aspects of what may now be deemed the accepted way of life in this part of the world.
We observe these results, results brought daily to the surface by the contentious nature of the situation; we feel concern at their immediacy, their indication of a steadily worsening disease, a progressive wasting away of opportunities and potential for whatever it is that lies ahead. Yet what has been our response? Nothing really, nothing that is of any great measure. We condemn, we suggest alternatives, we complain, we state that what is happening should be otherwise, better, somehow more appropriate, more worthy of the human condition.
And all to no avail.
It is as though we have become imprisoned by some malevolent monster of our own devising; as if, by fleeing from its presence, we would allow it even wider scope for further acts of folly and capriciousness.
We fear it and, as a consequence, appear immobilised by that fear. It, on the other hand, does not seem to fear us.
Why should it? Our fears sustain it, extend its influence, magnify its power. Our minds, too weak to act in unison against this creature, serve instead to give it greater form and substance.
But our minds still retain, in some dark corner, the capacity for ultimate victory. If we are ever to defeat this monster, it is thus within our own minds that the final battle must take place.
And, since the mind of Man can claim to contemplate the infinite, that battle has always been ours to win.
But this will only ever happen if we all chose to make it so.
Thank you, Richard, for never forgetting the human beings behind the names and the numbers.
In this story as the one concerning the brutal killing of Ziad Jilani by the Border Police, nothing tells more than pictures of the families left behind. Hopefully, Maria hasn’t grown too old to play with dolls by the time her father is released.
Amen to that.
Bibi’s response, live on YouTube, when questioned about Abusisi:
“Asked about a Palestinian engineer who disappeared in Ukraine and later surfaced in an Israeli jail, Netanyahu said, “He is a Hamas member, held legally in Israeli detention.” Netanyahu added, “He delivered important information,” without elaborating.”
God help the poor sod.
Bibi or Dirar? Or both?