Bibi Netanyahu, in wangling an invitation to a second address to a joint session of Congress, is doing what comes naturally. Exploiting his tactical political advantages to perfection while blowing all to hell any higher strategy that might advance any other than his own narrow personal political interests. In this, he was aided by his political enforcer and now ambassador to the U.S., Ron Dermer. Dermer isn’t a diplomat. He a political conniver: his Lee Atwater to Netanyahu’s George Bush. Even before I read that Dermer had orchestrated this cheap trick, I knew he was the instigator. It had his fingerprints all over it.
Here is their Likudist thinking (such as it is): we have several interests that all triangulate nicely here. We have an election in which we have to outshine our opponents. What better way to do that than to beam the PM’s speech live into every Israeli household two weeks before the election, in which he addresses America’s most powerful lawmakers who dutifully sit before him in awe and respect? We have the P5+1 powers negotiating diligently a nuclear deal with Iran which promises to take away from Mr. Security one of his key saber-rattling tools: alleged Iranian WMD. In the aftermath of such a deal another Netanyahu hallmark, the economic siege of that country, will eventually unravel, likely showing the Israeli’s policy for what it was: an ineffectual sham. In the longer term, Bibi, who never forgets a slight, even from a U.S. president, will have a chance to thumb his nose at a president he detests by addressing Congress as if it was the nation’s executive.
If you’re looking for hypocrisy here, we have it in mega-doses. Back in 1996 just before Israeli elections, the Clinton administration invited then-Israeli PM Shimon Peres to address a counter-terrorism panel it had organized. Bibi, running against him as Likud Party leader, was in high dudgeon as he said this:
“I can’t find an example of any previous Israeli government whose prime minister, on the eve of elections, made a cynical attempt to use relations between Israel and the United States as a party advertisement,’’ Netanyahu said at the time.
It matters not a whit to the Netanyahu camp that the current invitation was extended in an underhanded way that violated Congressional protocol. It doesn’t matter than Democrats weren’t consulted (they likely would’ve argued strongly against the invitation as a slap at their President) nor had any role in the invitation. Indeed, Dermer and pals even lied claiming the invitation was “bipartisan.” They’re used to doing this in Israel. Lie in the morning, lie in the evening. Lie so many times people ignore your transgressions. The lie only has to have the half-life of one news cycle. By the time the truth catches up, you’ve moved on to the next lie.
Such manipulation gives the lie to the Aipac claim that the Lobby is bipartisan. In the case of this Israeli government, it is nakedly partisan. After all, Netanyahu made a TV commercial used by the GOP during the last presidential election. Bibi and his political amanuensis, Dermer, are partisan through and through. They have absolutely no need or interest in the niceties of bi-partisanship. They treat politics as a zero-sum game. You give no quarter to your opponents. You hardly give quarter to competitors in your own nationalist camp.
Luckily, Obama and Kerry aren’t showing quite their usual spinelessness in refusing to meet with Netanyahu during his visit. It would be like Bibi spitting in Obama’s eye and then making him swallow it. Even that is too much for the President to bear. Obama also promised in his State of the Union address, a shot across both the GOP’s and Bibi’s bow, that he will veto any added Iran sanctions passed by Congress. This too is another show of fortitude we’ve rarely seen from this President.
All of this means that twice in the past two weeks Netanyahu has manipulated circumstances to barge uninvited into sensitive political processes of a nation against the wishes of its president (France and the U.S.). In both instances, Bibi came off as a grasping, desperate figure with a manic need to be in the spotlight, even if it only highlighted his shamelessness and other nasty qualities for all the world to see. In this instance, he will grasp the glory of a joint Congressional address, leaving half the political leadership of the country seething at him. And to him it won’t matter a whit.
Israel’s most important columnist, Nahum Barnea, had this to say about Bibi’s sheer effrontery:
Netanyahu is taking it one step further…There has never been a deal like the one struck here: The American Republican Party is intervening in our elections, and in return an Israeli party is intervening in their politics. They are helping Netanyahu beat his rivals here, and he is helping them humiliate their rival there. It’s dangerous. It’s poisonous. It’s not so amusing anymore.
Returning to my comparison between the Paris march debacle and the Congressional speech, the French president warned Bibi that if he scorned the directive not to attend the march and funeral, that Israel would remain in the doghouse for the rest of Hollande’s presidency. Now, Congressional Democrats have told Barnea the same:
I heard voices in the administration on Wednesday which I had never heard before. We must make it clear to Netanyahu that such a behavior carries a price, they said. We must make it clear to the Israelis that their prime minister is losing a vital friend for a short-term political gain.
In this too, Bibi has made the proper short-term political calculations. At best, the GOP will win the presidency in 2016. At worst, a Democrat wins. If the latter, then it will be Hillary Clinton. Bibi knows he has Hillary in the bag. Her biggest donors are Aipac stalwarts like Haim Saban who, besides being a huge political donor, is likely an Israeli intelligence asset, as Arnon Milchan was. Look at it from Bibi’s point of view: how big a price will it be? He bets on the fact that political candidates need pro-Israel money far more than they care to avenge their wounded pride. He may be right. Betting against the Lobby has been a losing proposition for far too many good people in the past.
The danger is that gradually, over an extended period, these tiny dings in the Lobby Lamborghini begin to add up and it starts to look like a “beater.” Will all the chicanery accrete over time? Will the disciplined support and fear the Lobby instills begin to wane? Not yet. But perhaps sooner than Bibi realizes. Odds are that by the time Israel hits rock bottom in American politics Bibi will be far removed from the political limelight. Then he won’t care. He’ll have written his memoirs, gotten his $5-million book advance, and joined the UJA-Lobby fundraising gala circuit commanding $100-thou a pop for his pearls of chochmas.
Speaking of second careers, I can foresee Ron Dermer’s. He exploits the connections he’s developed among Congressional Republicans to open a political consulting shop with offices in DC and Tel Aviv. He’ll become the political guru to Republicans with large Jewish electoral bases and he’ll pick and choose the Likud young bucks on whom he wants to bet their political futures. With any luck, he’ll find winning horses on both sides of the ocean and ride them to riches and power. There are American consultants who already do this: Stanley Greenberg and Arthur Finkelstein. But they’re carpetbaggers compared to Dermer, who has spent decades in the Israeli political trenches, but who also has an American Jewish pedigree that helps among the GOP here. Ah yes, I predict a bright political future for that young man. He’ll go far–in infamy and amorality.
How US-Israel relations have deteriorated and become wholly dependent on the lobby in Washington. What happened to foreign policy based on US national interest?
○ LBJ: ‘Stop Coming Through the Back Door’
I knew the US-Israel relations took a Texas-size step forward after the JFK assassination, I wasn’t aware of LBJ’s rearing in Zionism. LBJ: A Friend in Deed
No other leader other then Winston Churchill was invited to speak 3 times before of congress. http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Netanyahu-invited-to-speak-to-joint-session-of-US-Congress-in-midst-of-election-campaign-388468
And what on earth is the meaning of this link/comment?
Netanyahu as the new Churchill?
Why do you keep posting such nonsense?
It means, a 3rd address is a big honor.
I don’t particulary like Bibi but this circus around him is redicilous and comes out of frustration of people who hate him.
A big honor if the invitation is extended in a normal way. Not if the only reason is because Republicans want to pull a stunt on Obama.
Richard Silverstein says
@Ariel: A “big honor?” To be invited by a bunch of GOP hacks in order to spite a president they hate? This is an ‘honor’ similar to the one among thieves. You think the American people don’t understand this gimmick? Try taking a look at Congress’ approval ratings in national polls. It’s right around those for dog catchers, if that. This will send it lower, maybe into negative digits. If you think getting a dead fish in the mail is an honor, you’re delusional.
○ Joint Session of Congress
A Joint Session of Congress has been used almost exclusively to receive the President’s State of the Union Address (prior to 1942 called the Annual Message), other presidential addresses, and the counting of electoral votes for the President and Vice President of the U.S. Both chambers follow a formal procedure to establish these occasions by adopting a concurrent resolution.
Only twice have foreign dignitaries addressed a Joint Session of Congress: French Ambassador Andre de Laboulaye (20 May 1934), to mark the centennial of the death of the Marquis de Lafayette, and Cuban Ambassador Guillermo Belt (19 April 1948), to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Cuban independence after the Spanish-American War in 1898.
Other options are a Joint Meeting and a Joint Caucus …
Winston Churchill made more addresses to Congress than any other individual. He addressed joint meetings in 1941, 1943, and 1952. Nelson Mandela of South Africa has addressed Congress twice, in 1990 and 1994. Yitzak Rabin of Israel also addressed joint meetings of Congress on two occasions, in 1976 and 1994. It’s not the quantity [Benyamin Netanyahu] but the occasion that should be valued of such an invitation by U.S. Congress. Oter mistakes have been made in the past!
July 26, 1994 Hussein I, King of Jordan, and Yitzhak Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel, addressed a Joint Meeting of Congress.
January 28, 1976 Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin of Israel addressed a Joint Meeting of Congress.
November 5, 1975 President Anwar El Sadat of Egypt addressed a Joint Meeting of Congress.
Did the Republicans invite Bibi out of spite for Obama, or do they value his obstinance in a peace deal with the Palestinians, settlement expansion and the murderous Gaza bombardments? Another black page in U.S. history.
It takes two to tango, and Republicans (those same folks who didn’t want the Democrats to have anything to do with foreign policy when “wartime president” Bush was in office) jumped at the chance to undercut Obama on MIddle East policy while increasing fundraising opportunities among Democrat-leaning potential donors. Bibi is a shortsighted jerk who undermines Israel’s chances for long term survival. Congress Republican rosters are full of the same ilk. Add up the IQ’ scores of every Republican in Congress and I doubt the total would reach the IQ of my cat. The ethics scores are in negative numbers.
While we’re being entertained with the Bibi-Oblabla-US Congress-Mossad soap,you might want to keep your eyes on developments in Yemen and Saudi -Arabia.
The alleged attack on Syria by Israel,this current Israel-US spat with Mossad involved,the Argentinian prosecutor’s untimely death,the alleged passing of the Saudi King and the Yemen take over by Shia forces are all at te same time,and all connected.
These are the initial skirmishes in a giant open confrontation between two camps that can not be mentioned here.
To understand this theatre you have to keep looking ,and understanding ,the big picture.
Just keep insulting President Barack Obama, you hack!
… all connected … big picture …
TPTB =The Powers That Be. What bs shachalnur?
You clearly don’t know what you are talking about and you provide no content whatsoever.
Richard Silverstein says
@ shachalnur: This is so off-topic its outside our galaxy. Your ‘interests’ belong elsewhere. Keep them there.
My “interest” is to keep you informed from time to time,eventhough you hardly publish any of my posts on your blog.
You’re one of the few worth sending it to.
My way of seeing things have been judged plausible by quite a few heavy-weight Middle -East specialists(Jews and non-Jews) on the web.
If i’m causing you any problems,just ban me.
Richard Silverstein says
I don’t publish posts that violate comment rules as some of yours do. But I don’t think your comments merit banning either.
Yeah, Right says
“My “interest” is to keep you informed from time to time”
That rather presupposes that there was some “information” in your original post.
Hmmmm, let me look again…. nope. Nothing remotely resembling “information”.
@Mr. Booman Oui and Mr. Right.
If there’s no info in my posts,why are you getting so upset?
That’s the behaviour of so-called “minders”,and thanks for the ad hominem..
Because of my way of seeing things I’m usually a bit ahead of the curve.
Why don’t you try 2 articles that came out today,and read up a bit:
-David Hearst-“A Saudi Palace Coup” in the Huffpost.
-J.E Dyer- “Obama’s Policies bring the Golan to Boil” in the Jewish Press.
Eventhough the facts are a bit colored,it should give you an impression of the fact you guys are just very limited in your scope of grabbing current events.
No hard feelings,just don’t get upset with people who live outside The Matrix.
Yeah, Right says
“If there’s no info in my posts,why are you getting so upset?”
Why do you think I am “upset”?
You made a claim that you are keeping us “informed”, and I pointed out this claim can not be true absent any “information”.
And I am quite correct: you post was completely devoid of “information”, precisely because it is entirely composed of “innuendo”.
One of us appears to be “upset” when this is pointed out, sure, but it isn’t me.
“That’s the behaviour of so-called “minders”,and thanks for the ad hominem..”
No, it can’t possibly be an ad hom.
An ad hom is when someone launches a person attack on you *in* *order* *to* avoid addressing the proposition that you put forward.
But that requires that you…. put forward an proposition, which you have singularly failed to do.
And, well, heck, it isn’t an “ad hom” to point that out to you, no matter how “upsetting” that might be to you.
“Because of my way of seeing things I’m usually a bit ahead of the curve.”
Oh, I don’t doubt for a second that you are “seeing things”.
I’m just pointing out – yet again – that you aren’t actually telling us what “things” you “see”, merely that you “see things”.
A bit like someone who insists that they are “clairvoyant”, and as evidence for that they insist that they can “see things” that others can’t.
Yes, I understand you’re in a Way-Out Matrix, perhaps you just took the wrong curve leaving earth. JE Dyer (Jennifer) is not my “man”, nor is your analysis on global affairs. Ahead of the curve? LMAO
[comment deleted: I’ve deleted your comment because it just takes us farther off the reservation. If you can manage to write comments on-topic they will be published. If not, they won’t.]
RS: from your earlier article …
○ Netanyahu Rehires GOP Pollster John McLaughlin
McLaughlin’s recent clients include Rep. Lee Zeldin, the only Jewish Republican in Congress, and Georgia Governor Nathan Deal, on the winning side. He also served as pollster for former congressman Eric Cantor in his devastating defeat in a republican primary, as well as the unsuccessful NYC mayoral campaign of supermarket mogul John Catsimatidis. He also has had successes with former California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, former Florida governor Jeb Bush, and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
○ John McLaughlin Speaks at Forum “Defense and the Constitution: Saving the Military from Washington”
Arie Brand says
John Boehner looks like nothing so much as a used car salesman to me. But apparently he is in a much more lucrative business than that of selling clapped out jalopies.
If the members of Congress just sat still before Netanyahu in awe and respect, I could deal with that. But I fear we’re going to see them jump up and down like trained seals again.
Yeah, Right says
Or like a Cult, perhaps, with Bibi the centre of their Cult of Personality?
RS: “We have the P5+1 powers negotiating diligently a nuclear deal with Iran which promises to take away from Mr. Security one of his key saber-rattling tools: alleged Iranian WMD.”
We have been waiting longer than we were expected for a deal which “promises” to deny Iran nuclear weapons capabilities. And if those “‘alleged’ Iranian WMD” are not a credible threat, why are the by P5+1 putting so much into these drawn out negotiations, and why for their part are the Iranians not willing to give meaningful proof that they aspire only to those nuclear capabilities need for civilian uses?
RS: “…the French president warned Bibi that if he scorned the directive not to attend the march and funeral, that Israel would remain in the doghouse for the rest of Hollande’s presidency”
What moral or principled basis was there for Hollande to tell Netanyahu not to attend the march and the funeral? Was it not to be about the four Jews murdered by the Islamic (French-Malian) terrorist in kosher market as well as those, among them a Jewish woman, murdered by that Islamic terrorist’s two Islamic (French-Algerian) in Charlie Hebdo’s offices? (The Jews murdered in the kosher supermarket were all flown to Israel for burial there, not in France.)
And didn’t you say that Abbas was told too by Hollande not to attend. Yet there was Abbas prominently pictured alongside Angel Merkel and other heads of state in the front row of marchers close to Hollande, and reportedly Hollande then made a show of embracing Abbas, who has lauded a great many other murderers of innocent Jews as “martyrs” in the cause of “Palestinian resistance,” which hardly makes him a symbol of opposition to terrorism. So do you object to Abbas attendance too, or just to Netanyahu’s?
…why are the by P5+1 putting so much into these drawn out negotiations.
Due to the irrational extremists on both sides. Of course the deal has to be scrutinized, however a well educated population of 77 million Iranians deserve a decent life. It would be terrific when both Iran and Saudi Arabia stop their expansionist policy and use of proxies to fight a war due to religious differences. That’s so … medieval. The West should put a balanced foreign policy in place and not the hypocrisy of the last six decades or more. The military unbalance started with LBJ and with the outcome of the 1967 War. The opportunities after 1973 and 2002, the crown prince Abdullah and Arab League proposal, were wasted.
Richard Silverstein says
@ radamsey1: Let’s correct your worst inaccuracies. The nuclear agreement doesn’t need to “promise to deny Iran nuclear weapons capability. Iran doesn’t have such capability and its Supreme Leader has announced the highest form of Islamic prohibition against WMD. You ask why P5+1 is putting so much energy into an agreement? Guess why? Because Bibi Netanyahu is chafing at the bit to attack Iran and topple the Iranian regime. Western states know if they don’t get such an agreement, Israel will go to war and detonate the region. It’s only to mollify Bibi that they’re doing this.
That you would ask why the Iranians “are not willing to give meaningful proof” that they don’t aspire to WMD. Let me see how many things are wrong with this statement. You’ve already read what I wrote above which offers all the meaningful proof any reasonable person (not you, of course) should want. Not to mention that for nearly a year Iran has suspended nuclear enrichment above 20% in order offer such meaningful proof (again to reasonable people like P5+1, but not to you).
You’ve just violated a very important comment rule. If you don’t regularly read this blog or the comment threads, before you unload your wisdom on us, do a search through similar threads. I detest commenters who dredge up claims that have been exhausted countless times by others. Others have made the stupid claims you’re making here. And they’ve been soundly rebutted. I hate regurgitating arguments that weren’t good to begin with. And I won’t here. But you need to look over the posts about Charlie Hebdo and read the comment threads there. Do NOT bring up subjects already discussed there.
Ugh, you waste all our time so. The media, to which I linked, revealed that Abbas had agreed to remain home at French request. But when Bibi defied the French the latter told the former that they (the French) would invite Abbas. They only did it because Bibi stuck his thumb in their eye.
Actually, Abbas denounces acts of Palestinian terror and expresses condolences to Israeli families for them. WHich is more than I can say for Bibi who never expresses sympathy for Palestinians murdered by Israelis. Not to mention that Bibi extols Israelis who kill Palestinian civilians as heroes. He doesn’t have to call them “martyrs” because they’re so well-armed that they don’t die. They live to kill more Palestinian civilians as they serve in Israel’s efficient killing machine: the IDF.
RS: ” Let’s correct your worst inaccuracies.”
What exactly would those be? I made factual assertions that you believe to be false or misleading? Please identify them, so I can respond.
RS: ” The nuclear agreement doesn’t need to “promise to deny Iran nuclear weapons capability. Iran doesn’t have such capability and its Supreme Leader has announced the highest form of Islamic prohibition against WMD.” It’s generally agreed that Iran does not have nuclear weapons capability yet, but if the P5+1 thought the world could rely on the “Supreme Leader’s” (isn’t that what they call Kim Il Jong in North Korea?), there would be no reason for the to be imposing harsh economic sanctions on Iran as they are doing and putting so much time and effort into negotiations. (Is “the highest form of Islamic prohibition against WMD” something like the fatwa that a previous Supreme Leader pronounced on Salmon Rushdie’s head?)
RS: “…why P5+1 is putting so much energy into an agreement? Guess why? Because Bibi Netanyahu is chafing at the bit to attack Iran and topple the Iranian regime. Western states know if they don’t get such an agreement, Israel will go to war and detonate the region. It’s only to mollify Bibi that they’re doing this.”
Wow, that’s a remarkable conjecture. Do you have anything to back it up with, e.g., the stated opinions of respected authorities, other than your Iranian professor of chemical engineering and left-wing bloggers like yourself, or is it simply pure speculation? I expect it is pure speculation on your part, but if you have anything very credible in support of it, please serve it up. (And if I skipped past credible evidence in support of your assertions about it all being a show to satisfy the Israelis in previous posts of yours, please direct me to those posts and the particular lines it is at. I am open to persuasion, but I have to see the evidence, so I may judge it and engage in discussion of it.)
We’ll leave a response to the rest for later, except the part about violating your comment rules. Isn’t one of those rules about an expectation of civility here? But you are regularly incivil to those who would disagree with you and say anything in support of Israel or against Israel’s enemies, coming back at them with ad hominem, name calling (“hasbarist”), snark, etc. And I don’t know when there has ever been anything resembling “full-throat” conversation in the course of your comment threads unless you count as such back and forths between the clacque of Israel-haters who roost here. But if I have overlooked threads which did contain real debate between supporters of Israel and those hostile to the Jewish state, ones which weren’t cut short by your warnings to the former or banning of them, I would appreciate being pointed to a few of them.
Now, should I further bother myself to comment here, or is it too distressing to you to be challenged?
@ radamsey1 [israellycool.com/2012/07/18/doucheblogger-outdouches-himself/#comment-1308093506]
“… other than your Iranian professor of chemical engineering and left-wing bloggers like yourself,”
“… back and forths between the clacque of Israel-haters who roost here.”
Your intention is to settle-in and debate the issues? [shrugging shoulders] OK. Relatively speaking to the right-wing clacque of settlers and Kahane supporters in Israeli politics, you will find 90% of western nations to be “left-wing.” True, that is a clear division that can only be defended to hide behind 250 nuclear bombs. What does a bully do, watch Netanyahu’s daily routine.
Richard Silverstein says
@ Oui: Thanks for ferreting out this stinker. I banned him once as Dcdoc. Now, he’s come back again with a new nickname (using more than one nickname/ID in comments is big rule violation). I detest conspiring against me with idiots like David Lange. Grounds for an immediate ban.
And let’s quote the comment he published at Israellyfool:
Richard Silverstein says
@radamsey1: Thankfully, Oui has exposed your shenanigans here & at Israaellyfool. You may not have more than one comment nickname here. Since this is your second and due to your underhanded conspiracy with Lange-fool, you are banned. But let’s rebut what needs rebutting from your reply:
As I wrote earlier (& you ignored) the P5 are putting so much effort into negotiations because they fear Israel will attack. Quite unbelievably you challenge the claim that Israel wants to attack Iran. This has only been voiced not once, ten times, but 1,000 times by Bibi, Barak, Yaalon and many other Israeli leaders. The fact that you challenge the claim confirms you live somewhere east of the galaxy Zionica.
Civility? For liars, connivers and frauds like you? Never. The demand for civility is trotted out by Zionistas when they want to use it to silence their enemies whether they be Steve Salaita or me. Shameful.
Could you arrange for me to address Hasbara Institute with a lecture on the term “ad hominem.” It’s clear the Institute hasn’t taught you proper usage of the term because you & many others here have misused it. Go look up the term. “Hasbarist” is NOT ad hominem. It may be criticism. It may be an insult. But “insult” is not a synonym for “ad hominem.”
Let enumerate those other “Israel haters who roost here” aside from you: Ariel, ronan, djf, ben, krausen, figg, Shmuel, Kyle. And those are just the Israel advocate protagonists “roosting here” over the past few months. If I went back farther, I could list hundreds of you. You might want some day to apologize to all of these supporters of Israeli right wing policy for calling them “Israel haters.”
“Abbas, who has lauded a great many other murderers of innocent Jews as “martyrs” in the cause of “Palestinian resistance””
Abbas has kept the peace for Israeli’s for decades now. This is such utter nonsense.
And even your terminology (“innocent Jews as “martyrs” in the cause of “Palestinian resistance”) is so totally off. Look up what a shahid is.
@”Abbas has kept the peace for Israeli’s for decades now” – while you are right for the most part, he did play along with the libel of “settlers storm Al-Aqsa” that was played repeatedly a few months ago.
IMO, it doesn’t make him a liar, only a politician.
I really find your comments incoherent. Sorry.
Richard Silverstein says
Settler servants, the Israeli Border Police, DID storm Al Aqsa, shooting tear gas inside the holiest Muslim site in Jerusalem. They also ransacked the sacred texts inside. Can you imagine if Jordanian or Palestinian police stormed the Kotel, showered it with tear gas & trashed Torah scrolls?
Are you talking about the November 5th 2014 incident? I looked and looked not wanting to bother you, but have yet to find any reference to ransacking sacred texts inside Al Aqsa. If it’s not too much bother, could you point me to video or any credible source that documented this?
Richard Silverstein says
@ThaiGuy85: All over Facebook with pics of the ransacked texts & pics of the tear gas wafting through the sanctuary. Look harder.
Thank you for indulging me. I am not a big Facebook user. The article in Middle East Monitor has nearly 40 photos with no pics of desecrated texts or any mention of them. They also say that the Salahudin minbar was destroyed by an Israeli extremist when in fact it was destroyed by an insane Christian Australian. Al Monitor mentions allegations of texts being mishandled but no photos. Again, sorry to be a bother, but any further information or links or anything would be much appreciated. Thank you!
Richard Silverstein says
@ Thaiguy85: I saw them. You find them. Not my job to do your research for you.
Like ThaiGuy wrote, the November 5th incident was the first time since 1967 that Israeli police entered the mosque itself. That didn’t prevent them and other biased media to write countless times about similar hoax events, including Abbas himself.
If you wonder how sacred texts got ransacked, you may want to watch this video to find a clue.
Richard Silverstein says
@ Ariel: Pay attention everyone to Ariel’s response. He confirms my statement that Israeli security forces, aiding & abetting their settler bosses, invaded the sacred sanctuary & poured tear gas into it. But he deflects & diminishes my statement by raising the red herring of previous claims of storming the Noble Sanctuary which were purportedly false. Note, that this has nothing to do with the accurate statement that Israeli forces actually did do this recently.
Since you defend & justify the ransacking of sacred texts there perhaps you’ll tell us how you’d feel if Palestinian police destroyed Torah scrolls at the Kotel??
Ariel, comments must be directly on-topic. Raising previous purported false claims of assault against the Noble Sanctuary is OFF TOPIC. Do NOT violate the comment rules.
@Richard – at no point have I “defend & justify” anything so don’t put words into my mouth. To answer your question – I will be pissed.
Richard Silverstein says
@ Ariel: But not as pissed about Border Police thugs trashing Islam’s 3rd holiest shrine, I guess??
@Richard – I also found this article on WSJ on which “Israel Denies Accusations That Police Set Off a Fire Inside During Clashes” so personally I highly doubt if there is anything to defend or justify (not that I expect you to believe it).
What I do expect you to believe, is a quote by director of the Islamic Awqaf, Sheikh Azzam Al-Khatib on an Islamic and pro-Palestinian website.
@Richard – I assume you meant for a picture such as here:
While I’ll get pissed if SIDURIM were trashed but Torah scrolls are a whole different story. I’m sure quite of few SIDURIM were destroyed during the Gaza disengagement in cases where residents oppose the police and I am sure there was some outcry. This is what happen when one turn a house of prayer into a castle, on both sides. So if Smotritz would show me similar picture from the syneguge in Amone or such I’ll tell he got exactly what he cooked. Given clashes in prior weeks or even months during which some youth used the mosque as shelter, it was a question of not ‘if’ but ‘when’.
The comparison to Torah Scrolls is out of place and we both know it. I am not familiar enough with Islam to know what will be the equivalent. As usual, you took a step far trying to prove your point.
Richard Silverstein says
@ Ariel: You’ve made the mistaken assumption that books in Judaism are the same level of holiness of books in Islam. First, Judaism has the Torah scroll which is the most sacred object possible. I have never heard of Islam having such sacred scrolls. The Quran is a book and these trashed books, though I can’t tell (perhaps someone else can), may be Qurans. So it’s very possible the level of desecration may be the same as if Torah scrolls were trashed.
You’ve made the common mistake of trying to fit Islam into the categories of Judaic worship which you know. They’re not the same religion.
@Richard – No. You made the mistake of assuming they are the same (though I probably should have made the comparison to the bible rather then SIDUR). The comparison of a book printed in miilions every week to a scroll that takes a year to write is preposterous.
When a Torah scroll falls to the ground, the community should fast (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3614331,00.html), (http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/37510/torah-falls-congregants-fast/) and (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/830339/jewish/Why-fast-after-dropping-a-Torah-scroll-or-tefillin.htm) I think the Chabad one is the most interesting b/c it dates the custom to the same time as the print was invented. It is also a custom to kiss a bible that fell.
As for Quran, I search Google for “when Quran falls” and received many hitד mostly saying “You shouldn’t really do anything, Allah forgive you” and some suggested to pay the worth of the book.
Richard Silverstein says
This again is your ridiculous Judean noblesse oblige on display. The Quran is the holiest book in Islam. If you harm it you are doing as much harm as you would if you defaced a Torah scroll. You may not arrogate to yourself the right to determine for Muslims what is holy and what is less holy and how levels of holiness compares to Judaism. You are an ignorant slob on these issues & your opinion is insulting.
The difference between an accident with a Quran and a Torah, and having them deliberately defiled is huge. Your comparison is faulty.
You may not continue this discussion. Move on to another thread.
The US has long history of hosting leaders short time before elections, including Shimon Peres.