41 thoughts on “Israeli Poll: Israelis Support Ethnic Cleansing, Annexation and Apartheid State – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. I would also be see the the full poll results, and the wording of the questions.
    Unless proven otherwise, everything coming from the New Israel Fund is only for the smearing of Israel or the Israeli public.

    1. You’re full of borsht (& that’s putting it mildly). Camil Fuchs is one of Israel’s leading pollsters. Are you claiming he’s a Commie pinko anti-Israel plant?

      Gideon Levy wrote that the survey is only available in Hebrew. I’m hoping he’ll be sending it to me.

      1. Dear Richard,
        Camil Fuchs may be a leading pollsters, and as you are probably aware, a poll can be distorted so the results will fit the gaol of the person or organization that ordered them.
        In the same way, far right parties come out with polls that show that most Israelis want to keep the west bank occupied, while far left parties come out with poll that show that most Israelis want to give the west bank away. In many cases, they use the same pollsters.
        It all depends on how the question was formed.

        for example, Just a few days ago, I answered a poll by phone asking me about my views regarding allowing “helpless refugees from Africa” in Israel.
        The questions were formed in such a way that even Cruella de Vil support illegal work immigrates in Israel, and there’s no doubt on who was paying for that poll.

        Camil Fuchs, like everyone else, has a business to run.

        1. Nimrod — So, in what respect do you think the poll is misleading? Which finding is over (under) stated? Can you back up your claims?

          1. A detailed criticism comparing the article and the poll results: [Link deleted for comment rule violation]

            For verification- the poll results: http://he.scribd.com/doc/111098581/Poll-Results-1
            Basically, while the poll results deserve discussion, most of the reporting article is false. The pollsters are professional, but Gideon is as far from an objective reporter as one can be.

          2. Why in heaven’s name would I want to allow you to pimp an article by CAMERA, one of the most disgusting, mendacious hasbara outfits out there. C’mon. As for reporting, if you call what CAMERA does reporting–it’s entirely fake & a fraud. And don’t ever link to CAMERA here again.

            I uploaded the entire poll & linked to it. Why would you need to do it again in your comment? Or did you not even read my post & check the links?

  2. Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have already called Israel an apartheid state. I can think of no other two people who would recognize the condition any better (and have a proven record of implementing the solution for it in a far bigger country).

    The discussions concerning the Palestinian territories with my Likudophile friends sometimes center around a neighboring country of Israel absorbing the Palestinian prisons; for instance, Egypt takes Gaza and Jordan takes the West Bank (or another combination). This is an unrealistic proposition and requires highly improbable cooperation from Egypt and Jordan. It would be the first time in history when an unsolicited (and already rejected) gift of land is given from one UN member to another.

    The liberal Zionists like Beinart prefer the two-state solution. However, I view this as a disingenuous path to continue the status quo. Israel’s current and future decisionmaking crews would never give up half of Israel’s claimed land and allow a fully unrestrained Palestinian twin to grow on its hip. Even discussions of what a two-state solution would look like would bring to the table time consuming negotiations as to borders and other items. King Solomon would disagree with splitting the baby, and so do I.

    The solution is reconciliation, and it will offer with it a permanent anchoring of the Jewish identity to the Middle East, rather than a wholesale corruption of Judaism caused by continued Israeli apartheid, occupation, international crimes, and other forms of ethnic hatred. Israel still has one chance and one chance only, and that is peace with the Palestinians. Anything other than a one-state solution will not change the status quo, which is an inevitable Israeli demise due to the demographic downfall Richard mentioned above.

  3. The entire Israeli culture has been deliberately designed to specifically support these odious points of view. It should not be a surprise to see them laid out in black and white. How else to support a 64 year occupation but to promote Jewish supremacism and anti-Arab racism? How else to support and perpetuate ethnic cleansing? How else to excuse the dismal lives of the Palestinians? You cannot lay this at the feet of the Likud – it takes a generation or two to entrench this kind of horrific racism in a society. Apartheid, indeed.

    1. I agree. I think it is inherent in the program of colonialism because the success of the colony depends upon exploiting the land and people. I don’t think it matters that Israel, subsidized from abroad, imports other third world natives to do the dirty work. It is just a substitution for Palestinians, the indigenous group. The oddity about this colonial enterprise is that it claimed democratic universal values in the first place, at inception. To this extent, Israel changes with the times. Given open apartheid, it should be increasingly difficult to sell Israel to Americans, Jewish or otherwise. So the subsidies, which I imagine are huge, could dry up in time. What will Israel do to support its elite minority without subsidies? Maybe more war and expansion or the use of force for economic concessions.

      1. The people coming from third world countries to Israel for work are those who are taking the menial jobs Palestinians used to do before the apartheid wall made it too difficult or even impossible for most of them to work in Israel. Many Palestinians who still pass through the checkpoints and go through the wall report that they must start their journey at 2 am to get to work by 9, because of the length of time it takes to move through the checkpoints. This wall has made life hell for the Palestinians, as do the Jewish-only roads.

          1. You don’t know where I’ve been, Nimrod. One thing I know, however, is that if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. The situation of the Palestinians and checkpoints is so well documented, even by mainstream media, that it’s a simple matter for you to google it. You will find so much on the subject that your head will spin, and you will also see how silly it is to challenge me on it.

          2. Nimrod is writing from some Long Island condo and has never been to the OPT.
            Here’s “Bethlehem Checkpoint 4am”
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1FaWE1SIZk
            Machsomwatch’s videolist:
            http://www.machsomwatch.org/en/videos
            Most checkpoints are within Palestinian territory, and Palestinians have to cross them not only to go to Israel proper. The video on Ras Atiya Checkpoint is incredible: a Palestinien truck driver has to reload his stuff on another truck to pass the checkpoint within Palestinian terrotory, only for the purpose of destroying his business of course. Another shows a Palestinian father with his small sick daughter in his arms waiting in the ‘humanitarian’ line for the checkpoint to open at 6 am. The banality of Evil.

            Yoav Shamir made an absolutely must-see documentary “Checkpoint” (on the net). The perversity of the system and the continous humiliation of the indigenous Palestinians by these army thugs simply makes you sick.

          3. Dear Richard.
            I’m not familiar with mary, but I’m guessing that she spent less time at checkpoints than me. I know some in the south Hebron area like I know the back of my hand, and I don’t need to watch the over simplified picture of the checkpoint that the mainstream media shoves down your throat.

            I’m not saying their great. I wish I could get the time I wasted there back.
            But I do know, a hell of a lot better than you, than mary or anyone else who claims to know squat about checkpoint by watching them in a documentary or by googling or by even taking the Shovrim Shtika staged tour.

        1. I meant only that the abuse and exploitation of indigenous people associated with imperialism is present and active in Israel even though some exploitation is deflected also to other third world people, other than Palestinians. The policies of Israel are now shamelessly aimed at the destruction of Palestinians as an identifiable people and culture without reservation or moral qualms and this cannot help encourage supremacist ideas and racism, as you suggest. This racist murderous Israel and its American sponsors must be brought to judgment by external forces.

  4. It is not strange that the dominant “people” in a territory feel racist dislike-fear-hatred (or whatever, sometimes far worse) for the strangers in their midst. Look at many Europeans (Germany, France, UK) expressing similar feelings about Turkish, Moroccan, Algerian, Pakistani, etc. immigrants in their countries. “White” Americans have been known to feel that way about black and Hispanic “immigrants”. Racism appears to be part of the human condition and requires active leadership and (moral) educational effort to overcome even in part.

    With Israel, the only difference is that the Jewish Israelis are dominant because of their own efforts at racial cleansing, something that other people occasionally — when it suits them — condemn. The Israelis are the “strangers” and have been industriously displacing the people of the land for 64 years or more.

  5. maybe the question of the day is whether there can be a Zionism; a religious Zionism for the Judaic faith which is not a political Zionism of a Jewish state.

    1. Abe Foxman, huh? Wasn’t he arrested for espionage at one point or other? Who is he to “blast” anyone about anything? (It’s a rhetorical questions.)

  6. Well, Richard, now that the “progressives” have conducted an inquistion into what people supposedly think inside, without
    any real legistlation or policies in this direction on the table, are you now going to propose that the US bomb Israel and go to war since the Jews of Israel have now been proven to your satisfaction to be nothing more than vile racists? What the hell are you and your fellow “progressives” going to do with your massive triumph here?

    1. You remind me of the man complaining of the dog biting his heel when there was a huge brown bear standing menacingly just above his head. You think a war is what it would take to bring people like you to heel? Hardly. Withdraw that $3-billion bucks & threaten to vote for a sanctions resolution in the Security Council (w/o even actually having to do so). That should be enough to bring even a raving lunatic Israeli government to heel. Of course, this won’t happen for some time because it will take quite a while before the rest of the world understands just how poisonous the atmosphere is in Israel. But something like this will eventually happen. Either that or there will be a massive, catastrophic war that Israel will lose. Again, no celebration in that for me. But things are heading rapidly to disaster. The only question is which sort of disaster it will be & how long it will take for it to happen.

      1. Richard,
        The IDF’s budget for 2011 was 55 Million Nis – about 14$ billion.
        Not doubt that taking that $3-billion bucks would hurt the IDF (mostly the purchase of US made hardware since this money cannot be used for anything else), but I’m not sure this will should be enough to bring even a raving lunatic Israeli government to heel so quickly.

        But let’s say it does.
        Do you think the US should use it’s power this way to subdue other countries elected governments?
        If this is the way the US is treating its “closest ally in the region”, as President Obama referred Israel two days ago – that what kind of message will this give to other allies of the US?
        Do as we say or we let you die alone?

        1. I didn’t say the $3 billion would bankrupt the IDF or Israel. I said the threat of withholding it would cause a massive political tremor in Israeli society.

          I think the U.S. should exercise its power in situations in which regional stability is threatened by rogue states intent on fomenting war.

        2. “Do you think the US should use it’s power this way to subdue other countries elected governments?”

          @Nimrod – it already does. Hillary Clinton threatened to cut off US aid to Egypt twice in the past year, once when talk surfaced of Egypt possibly tossing out the Camp David agreement and opening its border fully with Gaza, and on another occasion when the Egyptian government refused to allow Americans suspected of tampering with the elections to leave the country.

          This is why the US gives money to other countries; it’s for leverage, not because it’s just being nice.

          1. As I understand, the military aid money for Israeli were given as a compensation for Israel for giving away the Sinai back to Egypt.

            Today, it would have been better for Israel if you kept your hard earned tax dollars to yourslefs and cut the aid for ALL supported middle-eastern countries.

          2. The US has threatened several times to cut aid to the Palestinian Authority over Abbas’s overtures with the UN. I think withholding the $3.2 billion would be politically devastating but not economically. It would be very very threatening to move to declare Israel a “terrorist state” so it cannot receive the huge private subsidies to which the state is also addicted.

  7. It seems to me that many Israelis aren’t aware that diversity and pluralism, beyond the boundaries of “Jewish” ( and perhaps “Israeli”) can be a wonderful, invigorating condition. Are there ways that that could be brought, meaningfully, to their attention?

  8. Very interesting article, except that you accept the story that Serbia was practicing genocide in Kosovo (no evidence has ever come to light 0f this), and that Srebrenita was a needless massacre of innocent civilians. In fact it was a centre of barbaric Islamic extremists under the leadership of Naser Oric, who had perpetrated brutal atrocities against Serbian civilians in Bosnia. What happened there should be seen in the light of this, even though crimes were committed (execution of prisoners, although not in the numbers claimed by NATO). The Serbians were set up from beginning to end by a NATO-led propaganda campaign that repeated almost verbatim the propaganda used by Hitler in 1941 to justify the destruction of Yugoslavia by the Third Reich. To take this as an example of international law in action, and to imagine that action would be taken against the foremost US ally in the Middle East, whatever they might do, is somewhat naive.

  9. The history of racism in Israel presented here is missing an important aspect. It is the aspect of internal Jewish racism; racism based on a deeply fractured ethnic division of labor that parallels class positions. The Ashkenazi privilege and the class position of Mizrachi Jews seems to be too much for the pollsters, but also it is too much for Gideon Levy and most likely, for Silvestein too.

    כאשר יתחילו לשלם עבור משטר הגזענות כנראה שיבוא גם שינוי. כל עוד למשטר הגזענות יש טובות הנאה ברורות לעין, לא יעזרו נזיפות מוסריות. לגזענות הישראלית יש שורשים מאטריאלים עמוקים של שליטה במשאבים של אדמה והון. גזענות בישראל אינה רק בקשר אל פלסטי
    נים. גזענות שורה ופושה בחברה היהודית עצמה בין אשכנזים ומזרחים. את העובדות והנתונים הללו לא מצליחים אפילו לומר שלא לדבר על לעשות משהו פוליטי לגביהם. הרבה יותר קל להתמקד בפלסטינים. כך גם מסתירים בצל הגעזנות הלאומית את הגזענות התוך יהודית שבין הפריבלגיה לאשכנזים והדיכוי של מזרחים. על כך הסיכוי שסילברסטיין יכתוב מאמר הוא קטן ביותר.

    If and when the price of racism will be paid, change might come. However, as long as the racism regime has so much benefits and rewards over land and capital control, moralistic approbations or castigations will not help. Racism in Israel is not only with regard to Palestinians. Racism is a prevalent culture in the Jewish society itself, between Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews. These facts and realities are (well known) but not spoken; let alone doing something is about them. Obviously, it is much easier to concentrate attention on Palestinians. In this way one can escape and hide within the shadow of national racism the internal Jewish racism. The “Jewish” racism between Askenazi privilege and Mizrachi Jews oppression is therefor safe and sound. The chances that Silverstein will write an article on that is slim.

    1. I don’t think Richard has a lot of sympathy for racism or ethnic distinctions of any kind. The topic you suggest may be appropriate to this blog. To the extent that Mizrachi Jews understand that the discrimination they face is just another face of the discrimination they share with Palestinians, there may be a possibility of change. If this segment thinks it can change the mindset without strong allies inside and outside Israel, they are probably wrong.

  10. Hello Richard,
    Who is CAMERA? I have no clue. In my short post (above) I attached a link to an article by Ben Dror Yemini, who is, for all practical purposes, a mouth piece of hasbara (I think he would agree with such a designation). He published an article criticizing Levy’s critique, I thought it was worth reading within the confines of the debate that went on here. I understand you preferred not having him on your website. Other than that I don’t know who CAMERA is and how it is related to me.
    Best,
    Meir Amor

  11. please watch antil the end.
    We went on “Israeli Independence Day” Rabin Square Tel -Aviv to celebrate the “ethnic cleansing” along with the people of Israel. We Distributed maps prepared by “Zochrot” documenting the dispossession and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the beginning of Zionism to 67. Reactions? :’Best’ you can find on the Zionist streets. Those who agreed with us, and answered our wish “Happy dispossessing” with “thanks”, some agreed there was deportation and dispossession but didn’t agree with the term “ethnic cleansing” because ‘we won they lost”. Those who were angry and called us racists.
    If you like the video please like our F.B page:
    on.fb.me/11m72hz
    we want to thank “Zochrot” for their wonderful work and that they don’t let us forget the crime Israel was built on.
    http://zochrot.org/en
    filming and editing :Haim Schwarczenberg
    https://www.facebook.com/schwarczenberg?fref=ts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1CRUEnwCBE

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