Eden Abergil: ‘I’m B-A-C-K’
Just like a bad penny or Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Terminator, Eden Abergil is back to wreak havoc once more. Several months ago she found notoriety by proudly uploading to her Facebook account pictures of her simpering as an IDF soldier next to blindfolded Palestinian prisoners. She clearly was primping for the cameras and using the prisoners as her own personal props over which she could lord herself and gloat.
She mortally embarrassed the IDF for about 5 nanoseconds and was made to issue a faux-sincere apology:
I apologize if anyone was hurt [by what I did]. I actually took pains to look after prisoners.
Now she’s back, but in much bloodier form. Once again, she’s using Facebook, and once again she’s uploaded the formerly embarrassing pictures of abused Palestinian prisoners. But now she’s expressing downright homicidal views. Ido Kenan reports (Hebrew) that she come out swinging against not only the killers of the Fogel family of Itamar, but all Arabs. In the first posting she writes:
DDDEATHHH to ARABSSSSSS
In the second, she writes:
Fuck you, stinking Arabs!!!
In the third she writes:
C’MON LET’S MAKE AN ARAB SHOAH NOWWWWW!!!!!!!!
One of his Facebook Friends jokingly warned her that the new images might end up on TV. To which she replied:
Death to Arabs. Let ’em!
This is the true face of Israeli youth. At least a large slice who harbor barely concealed homicidal rage against all Palestinians that needs only the spark of a terror act to rear its ugly head. No recognition, of course, on the part of Ms. Abergil that her own actions as an IDF soldier in abusing prisoners under her “care” did their share to fuel fires of hatred.
It shouldn’t be any wonder that one of the “lucky” Palestinians to have himself degraded before the world in these pictures, was sentenced this week to 7 1/2 years in prison for allegedly arranging for the preparation of suicide vests. It didn’t assist the convicted man that he claimed he’s actually persuaded a would-be suicide bomber not to carry out an act of terror. Such claims are automatically discounted in the face of Shabak “evidence.”
H/t to Dena Shunra.
90 thoughts on “Eden Abergil: ‘I’m B-A-C-K’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
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I don’t know whether to feel angry, or simply pity her. Had I not looked at her previous pictures, and simply judged From the way she talks and repeats the last letters of the words she writes, as if to make a statement, I would have concluded that she is a garden variety, grade-school pimpled bully who likes to beat up other kids for their lunch money, in order to deal with her puberty.
The real tragedy, however, is how did this Child became an officer in charge of other men and women in the “most Moral army in the world” (TM).
Is she advocating murder on behalf of the governement?She is a private citizen entitled to her views however abhorrent they are.
I didn’t say she should be killed or put in jail. Just that she’s a genocidal fascist who unfortunately represents the sentiments of all too many other Israelis in the IDF & outside it.
I’m thinking she would make an excellent dominatrix! And Israel certainly has more (court ordered) “gags” than any sadomasochistic “dungeon” could possibly have. But admittedly, I’m no authority on such matters. Just not my cup of tea.
I do believe the Marquis was quite knowledgeable as to such matters. And then there’s Woody’s excellent educational film, of course.
Woody Allen Film Trailer (VIDEO, 02:32) [dominatrix shortly after the 2:00 mark] – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2p_3G_WuoY
P.S. Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex, Gene Wilder (VIDEO, 8:05) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzr5Cubph9Y
RE: “Israel certainly has more (court ordered) ‘gags’ than any sadomasochistic ‘dungeon’ could possibly have.” – me, above
BIRDS OF A FEATHER: US Army ‘kill team’ in Afghanistan posed with photos of murdered civilians ~ by Jon Boone, The Guardian, 03/21/11
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanistan-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians
P.S. So who is more sadistically perverse? America or Israel? “Enquiring mimes want to know!”
RE: “DDDEATHHH to ARABSSSSSS…F*ck you, stinking Arabs!!!…C’MON LET’S MAKE AN ARAB SHOAH NOWWWWW!!!!!!!!…Death to Arabs. Let ‘em!” – Miss Eden Abergil
MY COMMENT: To understand how Israel inculcates it’s youth with such hatred of “the other”, view the film by Yoaz Shamir titled “Defamation” (2009) a/k/a “The Industry of Antisemitism”.
FROM A FILM REVIEW BY GILAD ATZMAN:
ENTIRE FILM REVIEW – http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/defamation-must-be-seen-a-film-review-by-gilad-atzmon.html
“Defamation” (91 minutes) can be streamed from Netflix – http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Defamation/70117001
“Defamation” on YOUTUBE (in 9 parts) – http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Defamation+/9&aq=f
P.S. ALSO SEE: Student’s answer on civics test: Death to Arabs ~ by Tomer Velmer, ‘YNET News’, 01/19/11
Teachers tell Ynet of hatred and racism spreading among students, which has turned classrooms into battlefields. ‘Teachers skip controversial chapters to avoid disruption,’ says Myriam Darmoni, head of civics faculty at CET
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4015645,00.html
ALSO SEE: Elderly Palestinian women called “whores” on Yad Vashem tour, while racism explodes across Israel, by Max Blumenthal, 12/30/10 – http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/12/never-again-elderly-palestinian-women-called-whores-on-yad-vashem-tour-while-racism-explodes-across-israel/
AND SEE: Israeli Teachers: “Racism…is growing among young people in Israel. We are witnesses to this growing racism in education”, by Max Blumenthal, 12/31/10 – http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/12/israeli-teachers-racism-is-growing-among-young-people-in-israel-we-are-witnesses-to-this-growing-racism-in-education/
P.P.P.S. AND SEE: “The racist entity that is taking over Israel must be toppled” ~ by Sefi Rachlevsky, Haarertz, 02/27/11
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-racist-entity-that-is-taking-over-israel-must-be-toppled-1.345929
P.P.P.P.S. ALSO SEE: Arab victim ‘stabbed 10 times by haredim’, by Hassan Shaalan, Ynet News, 03/20/11
Christian Arab assaulted near Safed says ‘Jews’ racism against us has reached point of real violence’
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4045047,00.html
Why is it that I find this type of subject so very reminiscent of the Parrot Sketch in Monty Python?
‘It’s is dead, deceased, it has passed on, this parrot is no more, it has ceased to be; it’s expired and gone to meet its maker….’
Perhaps it’s because, in almost every instance, the matter concerns something so manifestly obvious that it scarce merits discussion. But discussion does follow and what there is of it all too often illustrates that very point.
From the information presented here, Eden A appears to be exactly how Richard describes her. An unimaginative, far-right figure, lacking in education, empathy and in nearly all the normal qualities one would hope to find in the average human being; in other words, ‘a bear of very little brain.’
One must presume she was not born that way and it is only the society and background in which she was brought up that has determined her outlook on life. Well, fair enough. Such people do exist, rather too many, of course, but there it is and there’s not a great deal any of us can do about that.
Or is there?
A person, a society, a culture, a nation can only change if it can be clearly demonstrated that it is in the best interests of said person, society, culture, nation, even the world itself, to do so.
And the only way to do that is to take whatever the current situation is, project it some distance into the future and evaluate the likely outcome if no such change has been carried out or even attempted.
What is that likely outcome as it affects Israelis, Palestinians and, by association, the rest of us? At the moment, it’s not good and, as has been highlighted by EA, it looks to become even worse as time goes on.
Why is this?
It’s simply because no means has yet been found to stabilise the situation and then use that stability to create some final exit from well in excess of half a century of such deadly confrontation.
Until this is done, the EAs of this world will continue to flourish and sow the seeds of much dissension and more misery. So, is it to be their vision that will triumph; is ours always to lag behind, left blind and unable to find any answer to a problem so obviously in need of one?
Surely, there must be one more Norwegian Blue still alive and squawking in this world of ours.
so you found one ugly Israeli. Guess what, if you look harder, you will find some more.
I hear the same from Arabs on global forum every single day.
Freeman, this isn’t simply a question of holding ugly views.
This is a question of power.
Eden Abergil has the ability to make other people feel her views at the point of a gun – and we know from the photographs of her humiliating Palestinian detainees that she has already done this. It’s not possible to compare the dangers of ingrained racism within the military to nasty attitudes expressed by individuals on a web forum. Those individuals have no power over you or anyone else – and it’s extremely likely that if they did not witness Palestinians being subjected to dispossession and abuse while the world looks on and people attempt to justify it, their own attitudes would be more pleasant.
Vicky, the recent posts by Eden Abrgil were posted long after she lost the ability to point a gun at anyone. She was done with her military service while ago. These specific posts came after a terrorists slain the 3 fogel kids in Itamar, i guess her emotions were out there (and no i do not agree with her statement, think it was dumb, but i take it at face value: a statement made by a stupid person who has no influence)
Eden is a private citizen who expressed her views on the semi-personal lever (her own facebook page) she’s not a blogger / reporter and frankly who cares what Eden Abrgil says ?
Power does not rest exclusively in the hands of the serving IDF. All Jewish Israelis enjoy power and privilege at the expense of Palestinians, to a greater or lesser degree. My concerns about Eden Abergil are twofold. Firstly, she became something of an icon after the infamous photo episode (a Facebook group called ‘We’re All With Eden Abergil’ was created, she had radio interviews, there were newspaper articles about her). The fact that she is able to say and do such things without meeting any severe disciplinary consequence has a normalising effect on her views. Not only does it put them in the mainstream, but it could be construed as incitement to violence. Calling for a genocide against a group of people who make up nearly a quarter of your own country’s population (not even including the West Bank and Gaza Strip here) is hardly the same as expressing a private political view, is it? Especially not when you have been in the public eye.
Secondly, she may have finished her military service, but there is a high probability that she will be called up for reserve duty in future – and even if she has no more contact with Palestinians through the military, she will be able to participate in their oppression through other means. She’s doing that now.
This is the price everyone has to pay for freedom of speech. Have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkZhAtNfcBE
Actually, most women who serve do not sign for reserve duty. But even if she did, she still reserves the right to express her (rather unlikeable) opinions.
Seems to me we are facing double standards on your behalf. Eden statements are not any different then those who come from the other side – as free man stated.
it is kind of hypocritical on your behalf to allude some sort of powers to her statements while denying the affect the same statements coming from the other side.
Abrgil, chances to be called to an active reserve duties are equal to yours. Not every women in Israel is called to an active reserve service, most of them do not. only those who serve specific roles do. she doesn’t fit this criteria.
So your argument is that because some unnamed Arab somewhere in the world on some unspecified “global forum” expresses hateful views of Israelis that this justifies an IDF soldier in abusing Palestinian detainees & then waxing enthusiastic about an Arab Shoah? I’ve heard many statements by Palestinians about Israel & Israelis and except in very rare instances I can’t think of any this disgusting & certainly not recently. Not to mention that I believe there are far more Israelis who hold such views than Palestinians who hold similarly hateful views of Israelis.
I didn’t know that reserve duty was predominantly a male thing. Thank you for letting me know.
Yosefus, I would never let anybody call for a genocide against another group of people without challenging them. However, contrary to popular belief, this is not a sentiment often aired in Palestine. You wrote that Eden Abergil’s words were born from her emotions at the death of the Fogels. Consider what the Palestinian death toll is like, and how many Palestinian children die each year because of this conflict. (Statistics are available at http://www.ifamericansknew.org.) I’ve met many Palestinians who have lost loved ones, young and old, but I’ve yet to meet the person who would step forward and call for a second Holocaust against Jews. If and when I do, I will challenge them; but even in that circumstance I still wouldn’t be able to take comments on a web forum (that I’ve never seen) as representatives of what Palestinians are thinking. It’s worth noting that vile anti-Semitic comments on the Internet come from people across the globe, and so it’s especially frustrating when people try to present them as Palestinian. The logic seems to be that if it’s anti-Semitic, it must be pro-Palestinian, and Palestinians must be held responsible. It is an unfair form of silencing.
I was in Hebron yesterday, a place where people in the city centre have to clamber out of their back windows with ladders because the main street is reserved for the exclusive use of settlers. I heard no one expressing ill-will against Israeli people or Jews (quite the opposite, in fact) but if I had, it still wouldn’t have put those people in the realm of Eden Abergil. They don’t have the power to open their own front doors. How exactly are they going to hurt you? Their desire for hurt would decrease with the return of their own life. The difference between Eden Abergil and a Palestinian who feels hatred towards Israelis is that Abergil has freedom (of a sort), while the Palestinian has none.
I say ‘of a sort’, because I don’t believe that anyone can have that much hatred and still be free. Nelson Mandela said it best. She’s a prisoner in her own mind, and I do have compassion on her for that. I also don’t think that the publicity she gets is fair to her – I read the transcripts of her past radio interviews, and clearly she was in a position that she couldn’t cope with. But compassion for her aside, her views are still unacceptable and potentially dangerous.
Shai, I have seen that video before. I think anti-Muslim bigotry has infected the USA’s mainstream and more needs to be done to challenge that. But the situation is nowhere nearly as serious as it is here. Freedom of speech comes with attendant responsibilities; it should not put people at risk. In some countries (my own included) there are specific laws against incitement to racial or religious hatred, which I support. I don’t think that Eden Abergil’s right to call for genocide should take precedence over the right of Palestinians (both in Israel and in the Territories) to feel safe. Palestinian voices are already stifled in discussion here, and giving a platform to such toxic views is likely to intimidate them into further silence. It makes little sense to talk about freedom of speech when the fundamental rights that (should) underpin it are not present.
Is that how you characterize racist, homicidal political rhetoric? Out there?
She as a matter of fact has considerable influence within the broad circle of Israelis who agree w. her views & cheer them on. And even if you argue she has no influence because she isn’t on active duty, there are hundreds of thousands who share her views who are or will shortly be on active duty. They will follow up on her words and bring them to fruition in one form or another. Remember that after the next murder or massacre of Palestinian civilians by the IDF or Border Police.
If no one cares what she says the story wouldn’t have been covered anywhere by anyone, but it was. Because she’s considered newsworthy & because her ideas resonate in the political context inside Israel. In fact, you have a foreign minister who shares her views though he expresses them in a slightly more polished fashion.
You’re part of the problem though; you’re giving her voice. I would never have known that she uttered some more racist pearls of wisdom if you hadn’t written a post about it. Refuse to let her become an icon. She should be completely ignored.
I didn’t first write about her, 7th Eye did, one of Israel’s top media analysis publications. Besides I agree w Ido Kenan that this is important news. Israeli racism will neither be ignored or get a free pass.
And you think she’s the only ugly Israeli? Look harder, my friend. There are Kahanists in Knesset & your prime minister is an ex-Kahane Chai member. Her views permeate many many corners of Israeli Jewish life.
I wrote that she is NOT the only one.
There are far too many racists in Israel to my liking.
How ever, when I see such a post I cannot feel a little bit of unfairness. When Kadafy was elected as the head of the UN human right council. When Farouk Hosny who called to burn all Israeli books was a runner up in UNESCO director-general election (a tie at the 4th vote with the final).
And you can find racism anywhere in the ME. Ask the guy from google that helped the Egypt revolution and he will tell you how he was accused for being a Mosad agent sent to spread problems in Egypt.
This is not to say that we should not fight that racism and denounce those who advocate it.
I’m all for fighting racism & join you in that.
I don’t claim Israel is the only place in the world beset by racism, but there is an epidemic as public opinion polls have proven
why don’t you post pictures of Palestinians give away candies on the streets to celebrate the massacre in Itamar?
you will probably say that’s a small insignificant minority, but when a stupid Israeli girl post some stupid shit on her facebook it’s “the majority of Israeli youth”.
you are as much as a racist as a Kahana activist. maybe even worst, you hate your own people.
There is a picture that a photographer claims shows Gazans celebrating the murder, but nothing in the picture indicates that it is a picture specific to celebrating the murders in Itamar or even that it’s a celebration; or indeed that it isn’t a man handing out coffee & baklava to a friend in the street. So if you have stronger proof that the picture portrays what you claim, pls offer it.
This is a major violation of my comment rules, which you must read before commenting here again. If you violate the rules again you will lose yr comment privileges.
This short article by Samah Sabawi is worth reading, especially these two paragraphs:
“The three original photos starred the same man with the same small sweet platter. In the first shot, he offers the platter to the two policemen; in the second he offers it to a man in a car at a traffic light who looks a bit confused but is accepting the offer of sweets; and in the third photo, the same man offers the small platter of sweets to an old lady sitting on a pavement. The backdrop of the photos revealed nothing more than an average busy day in a street in Gaza with the normal amount of traffic, a few cars, vans etc. There was nothing in the photos to convey a sense of joy or celebration: there were no crowds, no smiling faces, no banners, no flags and no scarfs… in fact, no people appeared in the photos except for the man with the platter and his subjects. This was highly unusual for a Gaza celebration.
But even if we were to assume that this lone man with the sweet platter was genuinely celebrating, how on earth does something like that make international media? One Palestinian man in a population of 1.5 million offering a tray of desserts?…[I]t mattered little that no Palestinian faction claimed responsibility and even Hamas issued a statement saying that Palestinians do not target children.”
I’ve seen those photos too, and I’m sure they’re not taken after the Itamar-massacre. Probably on some Muslim holiday celebration. It’s part of the propaganda as the “Olympic swimming pool”, “the hotel resorts” and “the malls” in Gaza.
I often answer by posting a video on “the Five Dancing Israelis” on 9/11.
Vicky, if you read this, could you give me your impressions among the Palestinians in Beit Lahem on the ONU resolution 1973 and the intervention in Lybia. Just a few lines. Thank you so much. Take care of yourself.
Sorry, Richard, I know this is off topic, but I’m trying to figure out what the Palestinians think in general. Heard someone saying: “Hopefully, it’ll be in Palestine, next time”.
The overall atmosphere here seems to be one of excitement – lots of unity demonstrations happening all over the place, lots of people wondering whether Palestine could be next.
I haven’t had any in-depth conversations with people about the intervention in Libya, as I’ve mostly been with the youth group over the past few days. They’re young and a lot of them have cognitive difficulties that make it hard for them to understand what’s going on, so there is little opportunity for political conversation! I’ll get back to you after the women’s Wednesday group meeting – they’re a politically lively bunch.
“But even if we were to assume that this lone man with the sweet platter was genuinely celebrating, how on earth does something like that make international media? One Palestinian man in a population of 1.5 million offering a tray of desserts?”
100% right. and the same can be said about that stupid israeli girl.
Except that the Israeli girl actually wrote comments on Facebook & published pics showing her unmistakably abusing Palestinians.
We’re not sure what the Palestinian is doing & when he did it.
has she published the photos now? no, she published them a few month ago and that was worth writing about. what about now? what reason you have to write about it?
if i will show you a Palestinian facebook wall saying he hates Israelis, will you write about it?
Wrong. She published them several months ago. Got into hot water. Took them down & issued her fake apology.
Then she uploaded them again with even more disgusting homicidal captions than there were before. Clearly a newsworthy story.
Is it to be ever thus?
When incidents and opinions like these arise, as they often do, is our response always to be so unfocused, so limited by the divisions between us that no other way forward remains except to disagree and leave things as much to fate as they have ever been. Do none of us want any final resolution here? Or, are we to expect such a result only beyond the grave? And, perhaps, not even there.
One person sees things one way and another has entirely the opposite view. And, in between these extremes, there may be many varying shades of grey.
The whole essence of this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, Jew and Muslim, Left and Right, East, West, North and South lies in the fact that no absolute truth resides with either side; everything is always subjective, dependent too much on conjecture and from whichever vantage point observations are made and recounted.
If we can never derive absolute truth from any of what transpires, then the only real option left is for us to make the very best of what it is we can observe and to deal with the matter on that basis. Otherwise, we are all simply fumbling about in the dark, blind to the consequences of our actions. And, sometimes, to our lack of action also.
Even a blind man will eventually acquire for himself a long cane with which to probe the unknown.
We, it seems, can’t do even that. No small wonder then that we have a tendency to fall flat on our collective face every so often.
Many people have died because of this disputed land; many more will continue to die if the issues are not resolved and these to a high degree of satisfaction.
I think it’s high time we cut for ourselves our very own cane, stop all this falling down on the job and get to wherever it is we were going before it’s too dark and too late for any of us.
March 20, 2011 at 4:27 AM
The fact that she is able to say and do such things without meeting any severe disciplinary consequence has a normalising effect on her views.
This is the price everyone has to pay for freedom of speech. Have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkZhAtNfcBE
the video is misleading fabrication spliced together from two separate clips see here:
As always an intelligent piece, with much truth, but as often, it’s spoilt by the tendency to make sweeping generalizations based on the actions of a single person or small group. How can there possibly be a basis for a comment like “This is the true face of Israeli youth”. Where are your numbers? Where is the proof? How many of our Israeli youth do you actually know? If I made a generalization across the youth of another country based on the stupid act of a single person it would be blatantly ridiculous. And so it is here…
This blog & many others feature the violent, abusive behavior of young IDF soldiers virtually every week. Young Israelis, the majority of them at least are trained to hate, abuse & manhandle palestinians. Those are facts. You can argue with as you may. But facts don’t lie.
your selective blindness is astonishing. you see only what you want to.
you say you live in the USA, how do you know anything about the israeli youth? about thousands of soldiers? i guess you just “know” and that’s a “fact”. nice argument.
i served in the IDF and i’m telling you – you have no idea what you are writing about.
if you want people to take your blog seriously (and you do) you have to be more objective. right now you see one side only.
How do I know? You mean except for having lived in Israel for several yrs, speaking & reading Hebrew fluently, reading the Israeli media in English & Hebrew every day & being in regular contact with Israelis? You mean other than that how do I get the chutzpah to claim I know what Israeli young people believe about Arabs???
When did you live in Israel ? how long did you live there ?
You are probably in touch with Israelis who belong to the left side of the map. i doubt you will learn match from them, they live in their own world.
you people and your never-ending (lame) excuses!
Whenever Israel gets criticized by a Non-Jew, that non Jew’s criticism gets dismissed because he is a non Jew, and doesn’t know anything about Jews.
Whenever a Jew criticizes Israel, that Jew is called “ignorant” because he is a “leftie” and did not make Aliya because he is “assimilated”.
and now, whenever a Jew, who lived in Israel, and studied Hebrew, to the point of Fluency, and knows the insides of Israeli society, is now also being dismissed because the Israelis he knows, are on a “planet of their own” (??)
Sorry, but no one is buying!
I lived in Israel for two years, majored in Jewish studies and have an MA in Hebrew literature. I have studied the Israeli history and Zionism since 1967. I’d say it’s you living in your own world, not Israelis on the “left side of the map.”
@ Richard. So you have lived in israel for 2 years about 40 year ago ? did i understand correctly ?
and you claim to be an expert of the Israeli society because of that ? and yes you don’t know what the main stream Israeli thinks as you are in touch with those who belong the the extreme left.
@ ALI, would you say that I am an expert of the Arab culture, because i studied in Bir-Zeit university for 2 years, 40 years ago ?
Look, my expertise about Israel is an absolute red herring argument. It’s off topic, non-germane & typical hasbarist tactics. I’ve pointed out to you my bona fides. You don’t accept them, find. Go elsewhere. There are plenty of others here who disagree including a good many Israelis.
You clearly can’t read because I provided 6 or 7 reasons why I’m qualified to make judgments about Israeli society. You chose to focus on 1 & claim that this was the sole reason I claimed special expertise. These are the tactics of a demagogue which I find unacceptable.
This is a wired, global world we live in. You can be an expert in a place & know a great deal about it without living there. You really can. Stop living in the days of the dinosaurs and join the modern world.
Yosefus, we’re not talking about culture here. It doesn’t require an in-depth knowledge of Israeli music and wedding customs to recognise genocidal intent for what it is and to (correctly) identify that Israeli society is listing heavily to the political right. This much can be understood just from looking at the make-up of the eighteenth Knesset and evaluating the years that led to its election. You don’t need to live in Israel to be able to consider these issues in a thoughtful and educated way.
You say that Eden Abergil’s words are not representative of your own IDF service. That might be true for you, but hundreds of soldiers have come forward through Breaking the Silence to testify that racism was their norm. I think it largely depends on where you serve, when you serve, and on how astute you are – sometimes I witness the checkpoint soldiers behaving terribly, and they don’t seem to have any awareness that what they’re doing is wrong. The same is true for more principled soldiers who allow their own standards of conduct to anaesthesise them to the harsh realities of the occupation. (“I didn’t do X, and none of my friends did X, so it’s not all bad.”) When Eden Abergil had her initial radio interview, she seemed extremely confused at the furore that had broken out; she couldn’t see what she had done that was so bad, and she explicitly said so. The presenter had to try and spell it out in the same way that you would teach a small child that two plus two equals four. Military occupation is a fundamentally racist and aggressive enterprise, so it is not surprising that serving soldiers become affected by that mentality – and when an occupation has lasted for so long, it is even less surprising that many of them become to immune to the gravity of what they’re doing.
P.S. My second paragraph above is addressed to Ek, not Yosefus.
Facts have their basis in measurement. I’d be happy to see “facts” supporting the statement “This is the true face of Israeli youth”. Perhaps you could post them.
Your pieces are well written. There really isn’t any need to add this type of useless sentence, presented as fact, but actually designed to plant a specific viewpoint. With the information you present, I believe people are able to draw their own conclusions. Is the aim of your blog to expose and educate your readers about what you see as Israeli wrongdoing, or to try to lead them to agree with a very specific view point? I at least hoped that the former aim is the guiding principle for this blog. Perhaps I am mistaken…
How can there possibly be a basis for a comment like “This is the true face of Israeli youth”. Where are your numbers?
When recently over 300 Jewish religious figures signed on to a letter calling on Jews not to rent houses to Arabs, a full 44% of the Israeli Jewish public agreed with the edict. It’s quite reasonable to assume that this hate is not restricted to the adult population.
Then, there are the many recent cases of young Jews stabbing Arab people, in at least one case to death, or driving them from their apartments, or beating them in parks, or burning Arab-owned cars. Extreme acts of hate, especially when repeated on a regular basis, are usually a reflection of a generalized hate within the population as a whole, even if most people don’t act on it.
Completely disagree. Using the logic you put forward we would then assume other radical events, such as the twin towers or Baruch Goldstein widely represented which population – Israelis, Jews, Muslims, Americans?? Makes no sense.
The information you provide does nothing to prove the statement “This is the true face of Israeli youth”.
Of course it does. EVERY Israeli pubic opinion poll on the subject of Jewish racism (many of which are reported & linked here) finds alarmingly high levels of it. You said you wanted facts, then when Ibrahim provides them you scoff at them & say they make no sense. It’s you that doesn’t make much sense I’m afraid.
I am aware of the opinion polls. I still haven’t seen one that supports the statement “This is the true face of Israeli youth”, and I presume by that you must mean the majority of Israeli youth.
As I wrote earlier, I’d be real happy for you to present the facts that back up the statement. The polls that you mentioned, even with their disturbingly high numbers, do not prove the statement you made.
I’m sick to death of this subject. Once again, here’s a rule you should take to heart. You get to say something once. If I reply you get to respond. But if after 5-6 comments you find yrself saying the same things, it will do nothing but make my mood sour. So you’re done in this thread. The subject is done to death. Move on.
75% of Israeli Jews don’t want Arab neighbours, according to a pre-Bibi/Yvet poll. But I do somewhat understand: it’s well-known, the Arabs keep sheeps in the bathtub for ‘Aid al-kabîr, and do eat a lot of garlic:
Google ‘israel’+’racism against Arabs’ or ‘institutionalized discrimination’, and take a week off to read the articles and reports.
Interesting, but despite everyones claim that we are a racist society etc.
a poll done by an american company shows that most east Jerusalem Arabs, prefer to stay Citizens of Israel should a two state solution be achieved.
please look at question, 14,17
so what does it say about your claims ?
Most Palestinians in East Jerusalem are not Israeli citizens. They have no vote and they are in receipt of none of the benefits and services that are accorded to citizens. They are classed as permanent residents. It wouldn’t be a question of them ‘staying’ citizens, but becoming citizens. They are saying that they want something that they do not currently have – at least, 34% of them are. 30% would choose to be Palestinians in a Palestinian state, and the largest single majority (approximately 44%) say they don’t know which they would choose. Clearly Israeli citizenship is not an automatic and obvious choice for East Jerusalemites, and their responses to the other questions reveal why.
They make no claim to having equality. In that survey, 36% of residents say that they face ‘a great deal of discrimination’ in their everyday life, and a further 20% indicate that they face ‘a fair amount’. With well over half of the survey’s participants identifying racism as a significant problem for them, it’s logical to assume that some see full citizenship as a way of escaping it. There’s no evidence in that survey to suggest that they view their life as hunky-dory and that their desire for citizenship is an affirmation of its joys.
Another important clue as to the motivations behind their desire for citizenship is to be found under Question 10, with over half of respondents stating that they would be ‘very concerned’ about losing access to the Old City and al-Aqsa Mosque if they were to become citizens of Palestine on the other side of the Green Line. A further 24% identify as ‘moderately concerned’. So that’s 74% of respondents telling you that they are scared of losing access to a place that has been part of their lives and the lives of their families for generations. In one of the earlier questions, 34% state that being a Jerusalemite is ‘extremely important’ to them’; a further 26% say that it is ‘moderately important’. This is their home. You are assuming that because they are Palestinian, a home on the other side of the Green Line would mean just the same thing to them as Jerusalem. It’s not so. Ramallah and Jericho and Hebron might be in Palestine, but these people aren’t from Ramallah or Jericho or Hebron. They want to be where their home is, and given a two-state solution, some would choose to stay in it. The responses to the questions about various freedoms indicate that others would move to Palestine if – and only if – they thought they could have more freedoms there. (81% of respondents see ease of access to friends and relatives in the West Bank as a major benefit of Palestinian citizenship, for example.) If they thought they could have these benefits and still live in Jerusalem, what would they choose then? I think I can guess.
There is absolutely nothing in the survey to suggest that they would *like* a two-state solution. I have a shrewd suspicion that most of them would prefer one state. In this situation they’re simply stating what their preference would be in one particular scenario – they aren’t actually outlining their own preferred scenario.
Of course they would like a two state solution,
look at the neighboring countries, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, look further out , Libya, Iraq, Iran etc..
would you like to live in a place run like any of these countries ? look at the Israeli GDP with comparison to any GDP of the countries listed above, compare the freedom one has in israel, the social services etc.
i can understand why, but i don’t think it will ever happen.
Freedom for whom? For white Jews like you? Or for Palestinians?
What a telling error. The hasbarist in you intended to say Arabs want a one-state solution. But fr. somewhere else “two-state” came out. Interesting Freudian slip don’t you think?
Sorry…. should have been of course they want a one state solution.
@ Yosefus Plavius)
No, you’re completely wrong. If Palestinians want a One State solution it’s not out of overwhelming love for the Israeli Jews and your ‘freedom’ neither your ‘social services’. It’s simply that the huge majority of Palestinians come from towns and villages within the State of Israel, and are deeply attached to the land of their ‘asl (origins). The Palestinians just want to get back what was stolen from their families: land, orchards, enterprises etc, have full equality on THEIR OWN land, and they don’t need your ‘social services’. Contrary to Israeli stereotypes, Palestinians are not lazy people, and didn’t wait for the State of Israel to ‘make the desert bloom’.
And I’m not sure that your society is any better neither happier than the ones you mentionned. Syria for sure is a dictatorship, they are materially poor compared to Israelis, but the Syrians compensate their lack of democracy by their kindness and hospitality. And no old people in Syria are stuck away in a Old People’s Home with their family not visiting them.
That was just to answer your condescending ethnocentric crap.
PS. Earlier propagandists have already posted the PechterPolls on East Jerusalem, and I’m not going to repeat what I wrote to a collegue of yours. Adam Pechter is a neo-con close to the Middle East Forum, a neo-con Zionist think-tank in the US. You might as well ask Hamas to make a poll on whether the inhabitants in the Gaza Strip prefer Hamas or Fatah.
Omigod, you mean Pechter is a buddy of Daniel Pipes? Now that’s rich. Now I not only discount the poll, I think it’s a fraud. What a load of bunk. Pollak the guy who created the survey is with WINEP. Between them & Pipe’s ME Forum, it’s like tag team hasbara.
The survey’s methodology is flawed. I am frustrated by how they have gathered and presented the data – I would like to see the responses to the questions about preferred country of residence broken down in terms of income, religious affiliation, and level of education completed, for a start. That would give us more insight into the rationale behind the respondents’ choices, but it’s insight that the people who designed the thing clearly don’t want us to have.
I wouldn’t dismiss the survey outright, though. It’s telling that even this survey clearly contradicts the claims made by people sharing Yosefus’s views. There is no way for ardent supporters of Israel to package that data in a way that makes the state look good, no matter how hard they try.
Yes, Adam M. Pechter is a former deputy publisher of the Middle East Quarterly, published by Middle East Forum, and writes there regularly.
He studied Arabic, I guess that’s the language he speaks with his pal Daniel Pipes ! By the way, I saw Daniel Pipes on France24 recently. He might have s… in his head, but his French was brilliant.
His father, Richard was brilliant as well. But he achieved more than his son as he was a senior Defense Dept. official under Reagan and one of the true Cold Warrior hawks. That’s where the son gets his loony politics.
We’ve been over this poll or something very like it in the past. Must you bring up stuff we’ve already de-hasbarized?? First, East Jerusalem Palestinians are NOT citizens of Israel. The are “residents.” That is not the same thing. Second, this poll was supervised in effect by Aipac’s Washington Institute for Near East Policy (though the poll was distributed by the Council for Foreign Policy). That makes it immediately suspect as biased since WINEP clearly has a pre-conceived notion of the results it would like to get fr the poll showing Palestinian satisfaction with their living conditions. Therefore, I don’t trust the results a whit. Also, why should I trust an Israeli Jewish pollster to conduct a poll in Palestinian Jerusalem? Most credible polls of Palestinian opinion at least partner with a group like Khalil Shikaki’s, which wasn’t done in the case of this survey.
Now, to get down to brass tacks, the most relevant question is 17 & in it the results say that almost the same number of E Jerusalem Palestinians would prefer to be citizens of Palestine as would prefer to be citizens of Israel. And you crow over this as such a sign of Palestinian love for Israel? You don’t know anything about economics and clearly have never been poor. If you lived in Mexico and had a chance to emigrate to the U.S., would you stay or go? The standard of living in E. Jerusalem and the Territories is considerably lower than inside Israel. Faced with this fact, where would Palestinians prefer to live? Duh, that’s a tough one. Does this mean that Palestinians think Israel is a beacon of tolerance for them? No. They’d just prefer to earn a good living & deal with the racism as best they can.
Next time, maybe you can do better.
“With a group like Khalil Shikaki’s”
I’m sorry, Richard, but I don’t trust the “PCPSR” where Shikaki is the director either. The center is financed by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED)
On the NED, it says: “The close alignment of the NED’s activists with US foreign policy interests comes as no surprise, especially when you consider the revolving doorways between the US Government and the NED Board of Directors”.
The NED has been particularly activ in Latinamerica, and has been accused of many native and foreign social researchers of fomenting revolt in the progressive nations, and the contrary in places like Guatamala and El Salvador. A friend living in Bolivia in fact told me about the NED, and that’s how I realised that Shikaki might be too embedded.
There a very interesting article in Le Monde Diplomatique (French) on line by Calvo Ospina concerning the NED for people who’re interested in ‘conspiracy’.
Khalil is also on the ‘list of experts’ of The Israel Project with our good old friends Dore Gold, Abe Foxman, Gerald Steinberg, Itamar Marcus and Khaled Abu Toameh.
On TIP’s website, Shikaki is classified as Israeli-based, though he lives in Ramallah, and the site does not mention ‘Palestine’, but ‘Palestinians’
Maybe I’m too paranoid ? At least these things should be known, when we deconstruct the PCPSR-polls.
I’ve done a little statistics and poll-studies during my undergraduate studies, and one thing I learned: you can make a poll say whatever you want 😉
I had no idea Shikaki would allow himself to be used in this fashion by TIP. That’s awful & so disappointing.
Sorry, I forgot the link on Shikaki’s center:
But hey, didnt u claim later on israel is actually poor, and arabs dont have jobs here?
Can u finish one thread of responses without actually contradicting urself 10 times?
BTW, writing what u wrote is racist, as it includes an assumption palestine will remain poor forever. What exactly makes u think so? Why do u think an independent palestine will be more poor than israel?
Your claim about mexico and usa is the same claim i make about arab countries and europe, but i guess once again ur allowed to say so about mexico, because u have a hidden secret phd in economics.
No, not at all. I said that there are large pockets of extreme poverty in Israel & the gap bet. haves & have nots is among the widest in the western world. I also did not say Israeli Palestinians do not have jobs. I said the jobs they DID have were inferior in pay and expertise than the jobs of Israeli Jews.
Control that snark. A violation of comment rules. You’re on warning, remember?
What inane stupidity. I believe exactly the opposite of what you stupidly presumed I believe. Of course Palestine won’t remain poor. When the Occupation ends it’s economy will flourish and perhaps one day even surpass Israel’s. The competition will do both economies good.
Richard, for the sake of god, Learn to read before u write!
The poll talks about 2 states solution and what the palestinians will prefer in such case. U explain theyll prefer israel because “the standart of living … is considerably lower”. But Richard, we’re not talking about tommorow. We’re talking about the future, when there’re two states.
So either u just wrote ur explanation without thinking about it much, or u really do think palestine will remain poor. Both cases dont make u look so good.
Ive just shown u contradicted yourself, or at least didnt think what ur writing when u were writing it.
Just refer to my post at the bottom of the thread
and keep on thinking cursing/being agressive is ur sole prerogative, and that u never make mistakes (and if u do – no one notices, especially not me, because im so stupid).
You simply don’t understand how a poll respondent would approach that question. If an East Jerusalem Palestinian is asked where he would prefer to be a citizen if there was a two state solution, he’s not going to think about what it will be like 10 yrs after such a 2 state solution is installed. He’s going to be thinking about what he would prefer at the moment the two states are declared; a moment at which there will an Israel with a high standard of living & a Palestine with a considerably lower one. Hence, it’s easy to see that a considerable number would choose to be an Israeli citizen. To me, it’s amazing that so many would choose to be Palestinian citizens & is a credit to their steadfastness & commitment to the Palestinian idea and nation.
You’ve shown nothing of the sort.
There is considerably more thought that goes into what I write than what you do.
Vicky, you are right (as in most cases).
Whats astonishing, though, is that all kinds of conclusions can be made about our neighbours as well, and yet – everytime its done they are dismissed by richard as “racist”.
Apparently the skill to know about a societys culture, without actually being a part of it, in our global online world is reserved to people who criticize israel only.
Especially those who were born after 1948. They just cant forget the flourishing country , and the nobel winning academy they used to have here.
Der yassin, isnt it obvious the only reason they still “remember” the land is because they happen to live in refugee camps (which are obviously a worse place to live than israel – even if they are in syria and “old people are not stuck in olds people homes there)?
Oh, you mean the fact that I criticize Israeli right wing Jews who know nothing about their Arab or Palestinian neighbors but who pontificate about them as if they do, is the same as an American Jew who has spent decades studying Israel; speaks, reads & writes the language; & is a published, recognized freelance journalist & blogger in the field??? Are you claiming your knowledge of Arab countries is equal to mine of Israel?? YOu’re not really making such a claim are you? Because if you were Vicky, Deir Yassin & Shirin among others would be tittering heartily.
As for “being a part of Israel,” I am whether you like it or not & whether you recognize it or not.
I find this & the sentence following to be deeply offensive, ignorant, & racist & I warn you this type of statement will not be permitted here in future. You will respect Palestinian culture and tradition and not spit on it. If you wish to do the latter you will do it elsewhere.
I know enough about the arab wolrd to notice its poor and undeveloped, except for 2-3 places where oil overcomensates for everything else. I also know everytime this is mentioned here – its discared because it is “racist” and because you have a weird urge to over-defend the muslim world, without even setting the simple conflicts and paradoxes in ur own opionions about it. In ur blog “knowledge” is whatever suits ur beliefes, but you dont need to spend dozens of years to learn, for example, most of the egyptian barely know to read or to write. Reading one U.N report on literacy level in egypt teachs u enough about the education level there, but u of course can keep on thinking im racist because i read this report, and mention it.
btw ur mistaken when u claim “right winged jews know nothing about their neighbours”. With all of ur knowledge of israel u “forget” that many of those right wingers came to israel from arabic countries, and the eldery of them still speak arabic at home. Theyare actually arabs themselves, culture-wise, and know the arab world by far better than u do from ur blog-reading, and 2-years spended in israel.
You also forget some of us are actually poor, and work in the same shitty jobs arabs here work. So unlike u some of us actually have every-day contacts with arabs, not via the internet. Astonishing, isnt it?
No, you actually not only don’t know enough, you don’t know anything. Or rather you know the FoxNews headline version of the Arab world.
Not just racist, but ignorant and false as well. Again, if you want to generalize about the Arab world you learn about it first. You take a course, you read a credible source. You attend lectures by reputable scholars. You do the work. Then you earn the right to comment. Till then, you’re just whistlin’ in the wind. DOn’t waste yr breath.
You’re not right about this either. The literacy rate is over 70%.
Oh, like Avigdor Lieberman? And Danny Ayalon? And Bibi Netanyahu? C’mon. And even if there are Mizrahim who are right wing, when did they live in Arab countries? 50 yrs ago? More? What do they know of Arab countries really? Almost nothing other than stories their grandparents may’ve told them. Is this the same as real first hand knowledge?
Statistics disagree w you here as well. I’d bet that whatever job you hold a lot of Israeli Palestinians would be happy with compared to the one they have. The jobs, income, health care, education of Israeli Palestinians are far below those of Israeli Jews.
Wow, you have contact w. a Mizrahi Jew whose grandparents emigrated from Iraq, Morocco or Yemen two generations ago. That’s meaningful isn’t it. You’re really a pro then when it comes to understanding the “Arab mentality.”
Astonishing all right. Just not in the way you intended it.
Y, I think you are still misunderstanding the relationship between racism and power. Racism is about a lot more than harbouring prejudiced thoughts or making prejudiced remarks. If I hear Palestinians expressing prejudice towards Israelis, I will talk to them about it and help them to question their thought process, but I always remain acutely aware that such misguided ideas are the product of oppression – of a serious lack of power, autonomy, and basic dignity. It’s important for Palestinians to challenge prejudiced attitudes in themselves for their own sake, as an honest and compassionate outlook on others is a means of building up some personal dignity, but in practical terms it’s largely irrelevant what sort of attitude an individual Palestinian expresses towards Israelis. He has no power to make his attitude felt by you. His voice is barely heard.
Racism in Israel, on the other hand, is not the result of a lack of power. It’s the exact opposite, the product and the perpetuating force behind decades of dispossession and oppression. This power imbalance has a seriously detrimental effect on the ability of Israeli Jews (even the kindest and most well-intentioned) to understand the culture of Palestinians. They naturally approach the subject from the position of privilege that they’ve been raised in, and they are often unware of the unconscious racism that colours their ideas. In her book ‘The Other Side of Israel’ (read it if you get the chance), Susan Nathan mentions an English textbook in the Israeli school curriculum, which features career choices. “It was full of picture stories about Jewish kids with names like Gideon, Avner, Daphna, and Anat wanting to be astronauts, actors, and firemen. The book contained a single story of an Arab life: two boys named Mahmoud and Yousef asking their uncle, Sheikh Salem, how to be a good camel-driver.”
This is a blatant example of racism in the school system, and I doubt that a young child being taught from such a book would have the independence of mind to question it. This is their formative exposure to Palestinian culture. As children grow older, the racism takes on hundreds of more subtle (and consequently more dangerous) manifestations. The idea that Jews made the desert bloom, that Palestinian society is fundamentally backward (evidenced by its lack of Nobel Prize winners), that Israel flourishes in a way that historic Palestine never could have done – all this is common thinking, reinforced by the curriculum. (Just look at the glorified light in which the creation of the State is presented – Palestinians feature in the story as ignorant peasants who simultaneously managed to be a deadly threat and a pack of cowards who ran away, if they feature at all.) If you have been taught to ignore Palestinian history and look down on Arab cultures as a routine part of your education, it will make it extremely difficult for you to comprehend those cultures later on, no matter how sincerely you want to learn.
I know many committed peace activists who are Israeli Jews, and I have the utmost respect for them because of how hard they have had to work to get beyond this particular hurdle. At first it’s difficult for Israelis even to acknowledge that it is. They hear ‘racist’ and feel defensive, because they don’t want Palestinians to suffer, they don’t support occupation, and they assume that racism must be a deliberate cultivated choice – the antithesis of their own views. It isn’t. Sometimes it’s an attitude that you didn’t pick. You just grew up with it, and it became your normal. Recognising this is not an admission that you’re a terrible person. It means you’re an honest person, and that you’re trying.
As for prejudiced attitudes amongst Palestinians, I trust these will dissolve once they have the equality and the rights that they need.
Vicky, i think the term “racism” is being overused by people like Richard, Der yassin and others here.
Its a fact Israel flourishes unlike most of the surroinding countries, and its also a fact we do it without natual resources we can sell, unlike the saudians or the others.
If u have a child who fails in school – will u try to help him, by bringing him a private tutor, or u will just ignore his failure, yell at anyone who notices it, and will explain to him why he shouldnt even bother to attempt to success – because he is nice just the way he is?
My problem with the palestinians and the muslims generally is that they and their friends are too eager to take the second approach, and this forum – where e very statetemnt which criticizes the arab world is regarded is racist – is a great example for it.
Nobel prize winners number is turned to a joke by people like der yassin, but its a symptom which shows u the difference between academys position in israel and in surroinding countries (and it gets worse and worse in israel with everyday, btw)., and as long as this is the situation, i will look down at them, just like i envy countries / cultures more developed than my own.
Really, nearly half of all Israeli children live in poverty. 1/4 of all Israelis live in poverty. This is only part of the problem. Israel wastes untold billions on its Occupation. And you say it flourishes. Under what terms? Not terms by which I measure such things. Yes, the economy is humming for those with the skills & education to benefit fr. it like you. Not so much for the underclass though. Or did you forget them. Or just not see them?
More nonsensical racism. So here’s the deal. I’m tired of noting the racism only to have you continue spouting it. So you can clean up yr act or you’ll be gone. Understand me well as I mean business. This is your last call.
Going…next one & you’re gone.
You are assuming that Palestinians are on an equal footing with Israelis, and that they too could succeed economically if only they put the effort in. This isn’t true. The West Bank is a captive market. Gaza is in a stranglehold. Even the exports that Israel permits the West Bank and Gaza to make bring a financial benefit to Israel itself. Within the Israeli state, Arab schools receive a paltry amount of funding compared to that given to predominantly Jewish schools – on average, the textbooks used by Palestinian students of Israeli citizenship are twenty years out of date. On this side of the Green Line, universities are severely under-resourced, and the restrictions on freedom of movement prevent academics and students from furthering their knowledge through international conference attendance, study abroad, etc. – all things that no Israeli Nobel Prize winner has ever had to worry about. Education is a crucial part of Palestinian society, especially in the poorest areas. People do the best they can, but without more money, better resources, and freedom to travel, it will be far harder for them to attain academic distinction than it is for their Israeli counterparts.
Economic disadvantage and educational inequality are deeply ingrained in the system on both sides of the Green Line. This is not a breeding ground for success. To succeed as a Palestinian you have to be exceptionally bright, exceptionally determined, and in receipt of an exceptional amount of luck. The odds are against them from the start. Campaigning against this injustice is a proactive thing to do. I think you are unaware of the sheer extent of the problems that they face, which is why you see it as just passive complaining.
As for Israel’s achievements, consider this: it receives far more monetary support from countries abroad (particularly the USA) than any other Middle Eastern country could dream of. It also turns a nice profit by plundering the West Bank’s resources. Its economic success and the high educational attainment that comes with that are more than a little tainted.
You say that you can’t see a difference between Palestinians and Arabs from other countries. I thank you for being honest enough to admit that, and I hope that one day you will be able to explore the differing cultures of the Middle East and realise the ways in which Palestine is unique from its neighbours.
Yes, i assume that if i and any palestinian my age would have given the same chance we both could make it to the same place. This is why i am NOT a racist, unlike what richard or others may think.
You bring the west bank as an example and i totally agree with what u say, but theres a very legitime question to ask: Is the situation in egypt, syria, lebanon, jordan better?
Of course its not the simple peoples fault there they live in a countries controlled by dictators, but u cannot ignore the fact the arab/muslim world has developed very differently from the west, especially in the 20 century. Being aware of it is not being racist, and claiming its not true simply harms the people in those countries, because if everything is so perfect and the west isnt really better – theres no reason for them to overthrow their dictators, right?
Do you think Palestine would have developed differently from the other arab countries? Thats ur right, but since we dont know – its my right to assume it wouldnt. I dont see how till 1948 their culture developed in any different way from Egyptian or Jordanese. this is is not a trivial question to answer, and cannot be dispposed with an “u r a racist” answer, richard style.
As of ur claim theres a difference between palestinians and arabs from other countries – there might be a difference between palestinians and saudians, and theres surely a difference between palestinians and pakistanians, but dont forget modern day states are a result of a division made in the middle east by the western colonialist. Just like jordan/israel/palestine were supposed to be divided as 3 states – the english could have made one state out of it, and we wouldnt have known theres such a thing “jordanse” and “palestinian”.
You bring the support we receive and the occuaption as explanations why israel succeded.
I donmt know which resources israel plunders from the west bank. AFAIK they dont have natural resources like oil, like the rest of israel. You’re more than welcomed to explain what israel earns from the occupationn (this is something i agree with richard about – the occupation is a huge money waster, as it requires us to spend billions on the army).
As of the support from abroad issue – Again, you narrow ur arguement to israel vs west bank, and again u need to ask urself few more questions: what percentage of israel budget comes from the usa? what was here before the usa started to support us? Why the arab states didnt manage to develope in a smiliar way, although they had USSRS support, and egypt recevies lots of money from the USA as well?
If u agree there are different cultures around the world – why cantu agree/see it eventually leads to different economical status as well? Do u really think theres no corellation between the development of philosophy in western europe, for example, in the last 150-200 years, and their development? The arab world has developed very differently, under different circumstances. Its not about “israel vs palestine” only, and ignoring it is just being blind.
Of course it would have. It’s always had a higher standard of living, higher literacy rate, etc. than other Arab nations. Palestinians are just as enterprising, intelligent & creative as Israelis. However, they can’t unleash this under Occupation. All you have to do is end Occupation & within 10 yrs Palestinian development w. the aid of international investment capital will be rivaling Israeli.
A little resource called “water.” Have you heard of it? And another called “land.” Have you heard of that too?
And you seem to have forgotten that ultra rich oil field off the Gaza coast which Israel is trying to figure out some way to get its hands on. Or is Gaza not part of Palestine?
More racist nonsense. What are you now? A sociologist? Anthropologist? You know nothing about culture or economics. But the main thing is that neither has anything to do with the other. And the claim that they do is stupid, ignorant & racist.
“Especially those who were born after 1948 blahblah …”
As Richard, I find this deeply offensive – though I’m not personally touched by it. I find this kind of Zionist arguments particularly ‘chutzpahic’, coming from someone “who returned home after 2000 years in exile” and thinks that every Jew in the Diaspora has the right to ‘return home’.
Well, my mother was born in Palestine (Akka). You ‘returned home’ after how many generations ?
Just another Jewish supremacist …
Has Y written anything to indicate that he believes in aliyah, or that he bases his belief on biblical texts? I haven’t seen anything like that from him. (If he has said this, and I’ve missed the comment, I apologise.) Also, I haven’t seen him reject the right of Palestinian return either. He might do, but until he clarifies one way or the other it’s best not to assume what he thinks on these issues.
I think ur mother deserves a compensation for her loss and for being forced to leave. Theres no difference, however, between my beliefe in aliah and ur belief in right of return.
You and i both were not born in palestine, and i dont see what makes u believe that after 2-3 generations palestinians, who were never even here are that “connected” to this land, just like u seem to not understand why jews are connected to it after 2000 years in the diaspora.
Vicky, i dont think Israel can or should accept hunders of thousands of palestinians. Ive written about it before. “Justice” is a nice concept, but i dont see all that much difference between palestinians, jordanese, egyptians and syrians, and i dont have any reason to believe a few hunderd thousands of palestinians from refugee camps will turn israel into switzerlan #2 and not syria #2, not to mention i dont want it to loose its jewish character in the long run.
People like Der Yassins mother surely should be compensated, but they will have Palestine to move to, and israel, i hope, will remain as is.
No, her mother doesn’t just deserve compensation for her loss. She deserves the chance to choose between physically returning or being compensated.
More stupidity. Just how inane can you be? The more words come forth fr yr mouth the worse you sound. I really pity you.
Its “Jewish character?” Is part of Israel’s Jewish character to expel 1 million indigenous residents and replace them with Jews coming from the Diaspora? Does Israel’s Jewish character justify the Occupation? Why sort of Jewishness is this? And does Jewishness deny justice? Not my Jewishness.
@ Vicky and Y)
I might have drawn my conclusions too hastily, and in that case I do apologize to Y. I based my opinion on a comment he made on the absorption of Russian Jews vs Palestinian refugees earlier, and particularly on this comment:
“Israel is a state which was created by the U.N. to serve as homeland for Jews. It wasn’t created to be a bi-national state or a state of all its citizens” 6 March, 11:33AM/file: ‘Hasbaristas, click…’).
I read that as a objection to the ROR. But he could of course clarify his point of view on the subject.
And by the way, Y is wrong. He/she should read the long records from the UN prior to the Resolution 181 vote, the Declaration of Independance of his:her own country, and the one-hour speech by Abba Eban in the UN when Israel was admitted as a member.
Israel was supposed to be “the state of all it’s citizens”. No Hasbara can eradicate that. It’s clearly in the Declaration of Independance: no discrimination based on ethnic, religious or ‘racial’ origins. Nearly 50% of the inhabitants of the future State of Israel were Arabs, that’s why their expulsion was crucial for the State.
Vicky, with or without basing the claims on Biblical texts, it is a fact that the Jews “returned home after 2000 years in exile” in the best of cases. Some people consider this a myth. I’m not a specialist, and it’s not really that important to me. The fact is that the Jews were absent from the Holy Land for much longer than the Palestinians, and that “Y” expresses that Palestinians who are not born in Palestine have no reason to long for the land. Reading hime, you see he just doesn’t give a s… about a whole society – though primitive in his eyes – uprooted to give place to Jewish Nobel Prize winners.
And he’s wrong: thousands of people live in the Diaspora, far away from the camps in Lebanon, the Palestinians have done very well in Latin America for example, and they still long for one thing: to go home. They might be savages to Y, but they still keep the keys to their homes … ah, I mean their tents.
No, you shouldn’t. Of course, he opposes ROR just as he supports Israel’s Law of Return. Being the (perhaps unconscious) hypocrite he is.
BTW, Richard, check out Yediot Ahronot this weekend. It looks like Anat Kam is B-A-C-K. Regretting her actions. Will we see it on your website?