The victims of the Itamar massacre were buried today in Israel and most who eulogized the Fogel family shouted suitably racist slogans demanding vengeance and the like. They called them a korban, or blood sacrifice on the altar of Greater Israel. But there was a still small voice of sanity, and it was from the victim’s brother:
Motti Fogel, brother of Udi Fogel, eulogized his younger brother but warned that his death cannot be used as a tool in a national struggle.
“All of the slogans we hear are trying to efface the simple fact that you’re dead, and nothing can efface that. This funeral has to be a private affair,” Fogel said, adding: “A man dies to himself, to his children. Udi, you are no a national event. You’re horrible death mustn’t make your life into a tool.”
“Udi, my young brother, you made me wake up today at 6:15 in the morning, and you know how hard that is for me. Everything I could say would be a cliché. If I could, I’d chase out everyone who came here and whisper to you, ‘Udi, let’s go play soccer.'”
Is it possible amidst the anger and rage that Israelis might remember that these are individual human beings and not national symbols. They should be memorialized as human beings and not as representatives of the nation.
I read Dimi Reider’s J’Accuse against the Israeli left for not condemning the Itamar terror attack quickly or loudly enough:
The sheer viciousness of this cold-blooded butchery should have provoked furious condemnation from those unequivocally opposed to the targeting of civilians – Israel’s civil society,the Left and the activist (“radical”) Left. However, at the time of writing, only two organizations spoke out…
Why should anyone have expressed “furious condemnation?” What would such furiousness prove? That we are morally consistent? That we have passed some sort of litmus test that allows us to call ourselves balanced and fair?
He went further with the following nonsense:
The activist Left’s confused and muted response reveals a shameful double standard – one that is not necessarily thought-out and intentioned, but one that needs to be urgently confronted and weeded out. It demonstrates that despite political awareness and commitment to human rights and international law, our community has yielded to one of the most common afflictions of a conflict area, and dehumanized an entire community, consciously or subconsciously rendering it second-class, semi-legitimate target for brutal violence.
Dimi has spent too much time reading the blogs of his so-called friends on the left and not enough reading the settler blogs. What does “dehumanizing an entire community” mean anyway? I think the writer has things completely backwards. Dimi, these are settlements, not proper Israeli communities within the Green Line. They are not legitimate either in Israeli or international terms. I don’t wish to dehumanize Itamar, but frankly there is nothing justifiable about the place.
And talk about “dehumanizing.” Who dehumanizes whom, Dimi? Read any settler blog and recount the adjectives, the slur, the calumnies, the statements that are hillul Ha-Shem against us on the left. Don’t talk to me about turning anyone into “legitimate targets for violence.” I can’t begin to tell you how many Rotter members have urged the Mossad to kill me. Let’s get real. Anyone who reads, anyone with their heads screwed on knows the level of hate and violence is far, far greater on the radical right than on the left.
As for turning them into second class citizens, puh-leeze, these are first-class citizens who live better than a very large percentage of Israelis within the Green Line. They have chosen to live on Palestinian lands, stolen from their previous rightful owners. Should I defend them for their theft? Should I reach out my hand in brotherly love?
Do I wish Itamar’s residents to be “targets for brutal violence?” No. But the fact is that they make themselves a target not only by living there but by engaging in brutal acts of violence and murder against surrrounding Palestinian villages and international human rights workers who support them. Residents of the settlement have beaten up and robbed human rights activists and wounded and killed Palestinian from neighboring villages. Dimi concedes such violence from Itamar but while he enumerates the number of dead buried there, he doesn’t run through a litany of Palestinian dead and injured. If anything turns Itamar into a target for brutal retailiation it is these acts of homicidal rage.
Again, to be clear, I don’t support violence of any kind against civilians on either side. But as far as Itamar is concerned, you reap what you sow. Violence begets more violence. The only way to end the violence is by withdrawing from all the Itamars and negotiating a true peace settlement with a return to 1967 borders.
Returning to the 972 post, Dimi apparently was keeping score of which groups publicly criticized the massacre and whether they were sufficiently sincere in their denunciation. Frankly, I find the whole thing unseemly. With a tragedy such as this, every person and group will have a different reaction and seek to express it in their own way. To keep score as if this were a baseball game I find annoying and beside the point.
Just taking myself as an example, after I heard the news it took quite some time to digest it and figure out what, if anything, I could say that would add to the discussion, rather than repeat what others might be saying. An Israeli journalist with whom I’d been working on the Dirar Abu Seesi story challenged me to say something, which led to the post I wrote yesterday.
But I think Dimi’s 972 post demands a uniformity of response from the left that isn’t appropriate. This is a complicated issue, not one that is cut and dried.
Several readers have attempted to publish links to photographs of the victims as if this will somehow turn the world against the Palestinian cause and show the world the true evil nature of the Palestinians. I will not allow such links to be posted here just as I will not post similar pictures of Arab child victims (though I have posted pictures of the Fogels while they were alive as I do think we should see them as individual human beings). This is the visual pornography of hate. You can find it elsewhere, but not here.
Upon reading the article by Mr. Silverstein, two thought come to my mind. The first describes my thoughts concerning the vocabulary and ideology behind them, Disgusting. The second is that this article and the thoughts behind many of the posters supporting it would fit very comfortably in “Der Sturmer.” I will be reccommending toothers that they read this. It is good to know ones enemies.
How nice. Mazel tov on publishing your first comment at Tikun Olam, which may also be yr last. I can’t count how many comment rules you’ve violated. Your next violation of the rules will send you into oblivion. Read them.
The killings were so likely to provoke blind fury and disproportionate revenge attacks on Palestinians, that it’s safe to assume that they were intended to.
The sacrifice of several innocent Muslim families was inherent in the slaughter of the Jewish one. That does not make it a wise move to respond to the button being pressed in precisely the anticipated manner.
@ Y)
No, I didn’t read Mahmoud Abbas’ thesis on Zionism, but I didn’t say anything about it either. You did, and you haven’t read it. You only have informations from a biased ‘wikipedia’-page.
“This article seems pretty objective to me”.
Well, well ! I’ll just mention some of the sources that I know to be notorious Hasbaristas. Check them if you don’t believe me:
1) Itamar Marcus (twice), founder of “Palestinian Media Watch”: right-winged settler from Efrat and well-known Islamophob. He wrote a book on the Islamic danger to the West. Can’t remember the name
2) MEMRI
3) Efraim Karch
4) Efraim Karch once more, writing for Middle East Quarterly, neo-con think-tank founded by Daniel Pipes. Do you know Daniel Pipes ??
5) Arutz Sheva
7) Anti-Defamation League
Couldn’t be more objectice !! Do you get all your knowledge about the Palestinians from wikipedia ?
It’s not about “any settler editors changed this”. Everybody has the right to edit and correct a wikipedia entry. Someone used Itamar Marcus and “Palestinian Media Watch” as a source, and if that isn’t a propagandist, then I don’t know what it is.
I’ve been through the “Palestinians don’t know the Holocaust ve Israelis don’t know the Nakba” discussion before. So just shortly: I think it’s worse that the Israelis don’t recognize the Nakba than Palestinians not knowing the Holocaust. I’ll explain: the Palestinians have absolutely no responsability for the Holocaust and it happened on another continent. The fact that the Holocaust has been used to justify the creation of the State of Israel on Palestinian land, and the opposition to Israel often described as pure antisemitism is also a reason why Palestinians are fed up with the Holocaust.
I’m sorry, I don’t want to shock you, but I’m trying to explain.
The Nakba, on the contrary, was caused by Zionism, it was necessary for the creation of a Jewish State, and the Nakba thus have a direct influence on the Palestinian/Israeli relationship.
I still dont see where the problem is. There are quotes on this link from different sources, like haaretz and the guardian. We both didnt read the book itself, so i dont see any reason to assume whats written there is not true (even if the source is “pure hasbara” for you – im not sure you’re that objective either).
Heres another article which mentions this, and similar issues : link to time.com
Yuo yourself write that palestinians are “fed up with the holocaust” and that they dont know about it, so why does it not make sense to u abu mazen wrote what its claimed he wrote?
Your explanatin doesnt shock me. There are just two paths here. One – each side denies the other sides right to live here, by making all kinds of cliams (holocaust deniyng, denying the connection between jews and this land, denying palestinians even lived here before the 20 century).
Two – both sides realise teaching their kids why the opposite side should not be here is not such a good idea.
Palestinians are not responsible for the holocast, but learning about it might explain to them why jews have choosen to come to palestine 60 years ago (where they werent exactrly the most wanted guests even before 1948)
I want to stop arguing over Mahmoud Abbas’s dissertation right now & yr attempt to prove he’s a Holocaust denier. It’s completely off topic, a red herring & utterly irrelevant to anything. If you don’t understand why the sources used in the Wikipedia article are distorted & propagandistic we’re not going to teach you here. Just end the discussion & get back on topic.
i didnt attempt to prove anything to anyone. My only claim throughout this post was that children shouldnt be taught to hate.
I didnt even bring abu mazen as an conecrete example untill was asked to do so by der yassin, who claims palestinians are “fed up” with the holocaust, and yet, refuses to believe abu maze ncould have written aynthing on that subject.
If you dont understand you or der yassin are not the owners of the objective knowledge of the world – i cannot teach you anything else either. I dont think the writers on “Time”, “Guarding”, “Haaretz” are all working for the mighty hasbara, but u of cousre can remain convinced otherwise.
As it happens so oftenm u or one of ur friends make claims u fail to backup with anything, and u contradict urself throughout ur responses, and as always in such cases this ends with u benig extremly rude. You should really learn minimal derech erez, Richard, or ask someone whos not so nervous / angry to re-read ur replys before u post them.
and duck, israeli schools AND academy actually teach some german history, but u probably missed those history lessons for some reason.
@ Y)
“I didn’t even bring Abu Mazen as an concrete example until was asked to do so by Deïr Yassin, who claims Palestinians are “fed up” with the Holocaust, and yet, refuses to believe Abu Mazen could have written anything on that subject”
That’s rewriting history (of my comments).
YOU were the one who wrote in your intial comment that “there is much hate on both side” ….”and the leaders from the Palestinian side (some of whom based their academic career/titles on cleear antisemic work”.
YOU are the one to prove your statements, and I suggested Aby Mazen, because I’ve heard that hundred of times before by people who’ve never read his work. I’m not saying that he didn’t diminish the numbers of the Holocaust victims. Fortunately we’re not asking you for other examples “that you remember that you have read elsewhere” ….
Well, I remember having read dozens of Israeli politicians not only diminishing, but simply denying the Nakba.
And I’m “fed up” with Israelis anathematizing the Palestinians with the magic word “anti-semitic”. Fed up. Denying the Nakba is revisionism, too.
Israeli schools teach very little german history. Mostly about german unification and the world wars.
They most certainly do not teach anything that could even remotely excuse the holocaust, in the way you seem to expect palestinian teachers to excuse the nakba.
Imagine israeli teachers teaching that the now annihilated jewish communities in germany were sitting on ancient historical german lands. More to the point, imagine jewish teachers teaching this DURING the holocaust.
I don’t know how relevant it is, but I have researched the Holocaust in Poland and the Ukraine. From the E. European standpoint (whether Jewish or non-Jewish), the Holocaust just looks different from the standard Jewish Zionist propaganda narrative to which we are subjected in the USA.
Soviet leaders had good reason to favor “a collective, nationalistic interpretation of war” that denied a specific Judeocentric interpretation of the mass murder on the Eastern front.
Christopher Browning writes in The Origins of the Final Solution on pp. 244-5.
I provide more detail in link to eaazi.blogspot.com .
Note that Israeli Zionist Holocaust propaganda differs from American Jewish Zionist Holocaust propaganda, and among other things focuses much more heavily on the possibility of a Zionist rescue if only Palestinians had recognized the legitimacy of Zionist goals.
BTW, in terms of evaluating German Nazi policies toward Jews and Zionist policies toward Palestinians, the following article from the Forward is definitely worth reading: link to forward.com .
On the basis of primary Zionist literature, Nuremberg Tribunal law, and the writings of Rafael Lemkin, I have no doubt that the European scholars are correct in their evaluation of the Nakba.
Did u even read what you’ve typed?
WTF does the number of killed russians vs killed jews on a daily average has to do with anything? Have u considered there were more russians than jews world-wide to start with?
Your blog is a ridiculous joke with terms like “jeudo-bolsheviks”, which suits obvious idiots and antisemites like Soljenitzin, but i guess you’re considered a very credible source for richard, as ur both – a jew, and anti zionist – or “100% pro palestine as u define yourself”.
For starters you should learn / read if those “jeudo bolsheviks” you’re talking about CARED for their judaism. The answer would be a simple no, which means their nationallity had little to do with their faith in the marxist theories, but im guessing its way cooler to be a jew who writes a blog against “jeudo bolsheviks” than actually learning your material before spitting it on the web.
Joachim Martillo is not a “source” for this blog any more than you are. So watch the snark. I don’t broadcast his theories here & I’ve spoken to him before about what I will or won’t allow spoken here. As long as he follows the comment rules he’s as welcome as you are.
I have no interest in promoting a flame war between the two of you so if that’s what you’re about take it elsewhere.
American Israeli Jews indoctrinate themselves with a lot of nonsense and falsehoods about E. European Jews. In terms of reality disconnect, this false history differs in no way from Zionist propaganda about the creation of the State of Israel in the 1947-48 theft of Palestine from the native population.
There are careful scholars like Columbia Professor Michael Stanislawski, who are worth reading about E. European Jews. In Zionism and the Fin de Siecle, pp. 184-197 addresses Jabotinski’s mistranslation of Bialik’s poem In the City of Slaughter. In Itamar we see that Jabotinski’s followers are still slavishly following Jabotinski’s program.
While we are all educational and understanding, maybe we should get israeli schools to teach students about the german people’s connection to german lands. That should really help jews understand “living space”.
Can you really imagine a school teacher trying to explain to children why the occupier has to oppress them??
Nope, not what i said. i quoted wikipedia +- with exactly what they said. “sme critics claim abu mazen works is anti jewish due to holocaust diminishing claims”.
Holocaust denial of any kind is antisemitism for me, yes, and it has nothing to do with being anti zionist.
You can explain why ur anti zionist in a plenty of ways, without making claims about jews faking numbers of holocaust victims.
link to en.wikipedia.org
This article seems pretty objective to me, i dont think any “settler editors” changed this. Im guessing you read his work. He didnt write what they quote there? He didnt claim a murder of 6 million jews was a “fantastic lie”?
I frankly dont see what we’re arguing about. Do u think/know an average kid in gaza or west bank knows what “holocaust” is? As ive already said, the average israeli kid doesnt know what “nakba” is, and this is where the proble mstarts. education on both sides.
It is so obvious that Duck is a show off. He is being the contrarian son cause he is an immature kid. Why even dignify his stupid teenage braggadocio? Saying shocking things for effect is what kids do. In the meantime, Richard , you are being criticized on some blogs for allowing this crap. It taints you too. Not that I care of course.
Omigod, I’m being criticized at Jewlicious, Isreallycool & the like for imagined sins. I can’t tell u how deeply this hurts me because I so value their good opinion of me. Tainted–oh the pain, the suffering. It cuts to the quick. Do please tell us where I’m being criticized so we can all share a good laugh together (except you, who won’t be laughing).
You don’t know who Duck is & certainly don’t know his age. Also, yr claim regarding his immaturity is ad hominem & a red herring.
Follow my comment rules & take this very seriously.
Could you provide the links?
I am so telling my mommy on you.
Besides, it’s you who is the braggadocio anyway.
Actually, “shocking things” is what I heard and saw being done to arabs that made me loose any sort of humanity when it comes to settlers.
Lest we forget.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949, Art. 49.
link to icrc.org
It might be expected that the extreme right-wing in Israeli society would view these tragic events as proof, if proof were ever needed, of the irreconcilable differences between themselves and their Palestinian
counterparts. And, indeed, they may have some cause to be so disposed.
There are those at both ends of the religious and political divide that regard the other side as, virtually, the spawn of Satan, worshippers of the very darkest of forces or, if not quite that, then as minions of an evil empire, implacably opposed to all that is good and holy in the sight of God and Man. But then it’s always quite amazing to see how much violence and discord can be linked to philosophies preaching love and compassion for all of humanity.
The brother of Udi Fogel has made his wishes known. He does not want the deaths of this family to be used as a tool for further bloodshed, to be a crime that drives away the hope that, someday, no more such pain and anguish will be visited upon anyone else. This is such an admirable sentiment and it should be honoured by everyone who hears or reads about it.
Other tragedies, of similar or even greater magnitude may, even now, be advancing down the pipeline of time. And when they arrive, will they bring with them the same set of responses? Anger, sadness, resignation, another failure to communicate, a widening of the already yawning chasm between the two communities? In all probability, these will be among many such sentiments to be felt. And, perhaps, with darker deeds to follow.
But where then does the madness end? What is there that can impose its will upon impulses that are too deep-seated, too long-standing ever to be reduced to anywhere near a tolerable level?
A sword, it must be remembered, may be double-edged. It can be made to cut both ways. If all swords could be so constructed to cause injury not only to the victim but be even more devastating to the assailant, the capacity for violence and the continuation of conflict would soon be reduced to displays of almost token symbolism.
In such a setting, the serious business of finding a peaceful settlement might well prove far less of an uphill struggle.
Could it be that the right tool for this job is one that’s been overlooked from the very beginning? Perhaps it’s time we all started to sharpen that other edge of the sword.
But that is exactly what’s been happening for decades. Palestinian suicide bombings in their days came almost invariably after some Israeli transgression – an assassination or some colonial-style punitive expedition, and Israel for its part follows suit with collective punishment, more assassinations, etc. What else is this but the sharpening of that other edge of the mutual other’s sword? Are you really suggesting more of the same?
As for me, I couldn’t agree more with Yossi Gurvitz:
link to 972mag.com
“There is only one viable way to end the conflict: Non-violent Palestinian resistance. It drives Israel crazy.”
There is, and it does. Palestinians have been resisting non-violently for years. And for years it was getting them killed and nobody outside Palestine and sometimes Israel knew anything about it. So the world bought into the hasbara that Israel was a tiny defenseless state surrounded by enemies who wanted to drive all the Jews into the sea, yadda yadda yadda.
At the beginning of the current intifada, internationals rallied to the call of ISM. Together with a few concerned Israelis they began witnessing and reporting the crimes that had been going on for years in occupied Palestine.
Non violent protest is still widely practised in Palestine; the difference is that Israel can no longer hide details of either the actions that prompt the resistance or of the non-violent civilian Palestinians it kills or maims.
And settlers, many of whom have terrorized Palestinian villagers and farmers for decades, have been exposed for what they are and do.
No, fiddler, it’s not THAT edge of the sword I mean. That one, I suspect, is sharp enough already.
I want all of US to sharpen ourselves, to realise that within US, people much like you and I, there exists the potential to end so much of this type of madness.
You say that Palestinian non-violence protest will bring about changes to what has always been, and for generations, a hostile and bloody confrontation between two diametrically opposed camps. Maybe you will be proved right in the long run. But I would argue that the long run can be a problem in itself. I just don’t think there is sufficient time to allow us the luxury of waiting for a result.
It has to be forced upon all the combatants here. And, in many ways, that would be the best result of all. Why?
Because it says that WE human beings, not just Jews or Muslims, not Israelis or Palestinians, but WE all have decided to end this matter once and for all. And in the best possible way we know how.
You’ll have to click on my name at the top this comment to see how that can be done. Like all problems of this nature, the solution is, for the most part, really quite a simple one.