Border Policeman Admits Shooting Jilani at Point Blank Range, U.S. Consulate Offers Widow Little Help
NOTE: I apologize to readers for posting such a graphic image here. I do not normally do so. But under the circumstances I do not want to cover this story without people seeing what really happened to Ziad Jilani.
Three weeks ago, an Israeli border police officer shot and killed Palestinian Ziad Jilani execution-style after a hit and run accident involving a squad of four police officers. After first reporting the police version of the incident that Jilani was a terrorist attempting to kill police, the Israeli media, in the person of Amira Hass, put forward a far more credible report claiming that a border policemen approach a wounded Jilani who was lying in the street and shot him in the head from point-blank range.
The Justice Ministry has begun an internal investigation and Jilani’s body has been exhumed and an autopsy will be done. As part of the investigation, the murder scene and entire incident were reconstructed. During this event, the shooter admitted, according to Haaretz’s report (Hebrew), that he shot Jilani at point-blank range. He claimed, however, that he believed Jilani was a terrorist and killed him because he feared he was wearing a suicide vest. Further, he claimed he fired to protect the lives of innocent bystanders.
There are a few problems with his account. First, by approaching Jilani so closely he could clearly see he was NOT wearing such a vest. Second, proper training for such an incident (and common sense) demand that an officer not approach a potential suicide bomber at close range so as not to be blown up if a detonation occurs. In other words, only a suicidal Israeli policeman would get that close to a potential bomber (or a policeman who knew the victim was NOT a bomber). Third, it should’ve been clear from Jilani’s two previous wounds (one in his back) that if he did have a suicide vest, these bullets would’ve detonated it. Fourth, no border policeman would care for the lives of the Palestinians living in Wadi Joz where the killing occurred. In fact, several residents went to Jilani’s assistance before he was killed and according to their accounts they were beaten by the police and shoved aside.
This is all a pack of lies spread like manure by the Israeli border police, one of the most brutal, homicidal of all Israel’s police and military forces. They are always spoiling for a fight and relish them when they come their way. It would be just like them to escalate a minor car accident into a cold-blooded murder.
The Border Police spokesperson presented a laughable response:
This incident showed all the signs of a terror attack. We take great pains to educate our officers about the purity of arms. It’s simply not possible that a soldier who did not sense danger would shoot someone at point-blank range.
In a far more credible statement, the lawyer representing Jilani’s surviving family told Haaretz:
This was a car accident and nothing more. This isn’t someone who boarded a bus with a bomb and they attempted to shoot him in the head to prevent him from harming others. Under no circumstance would it be permissible to shoot him at point-blank range. Without any doubt, this was murder.
Jilani’s widow is an American citizen. As such, she is entitled to the services of the U.S. consulate in East Jerusalem. Alas, the consulate’s response has been lackadaisical and sullen at best. After an inquiry from Jilani’s sister, a U.S. citizen living in California, Congressman Brian Bilbray wrote to the consulate. The response by Consul Debra Towry was typical CYA bulls(&t. She claimed falsely that a list of attorneys was offered to the family. The truth is that the family was forced to hire its own attorney with no help whatsoever, and certainly no list proffered, from the consulate. The consul noted in her letter to Bilbray that a consular representative attended the first legal hearing into Jilani’s death. This is true. But they only did so after the widow begged them to do so. Note in the consul’s letter to Bilbray she refuses to commit to attending future hearings:
…We [will] try to attend future hearings whenever possible.
In fact, the consulate continually told the widow there was nothing they could do to help her. This is a response that Palestinian-American U.S. citizens are used to getting from our diplomats in Israel.
After the murder, the police canvassed the neighborhood and confiscated any video footage documenting it. That will certainly never be seen again. However, and possibly unbeknownst to the authorities, there is footage they didn’t manage to get. I have not seen it yet. But I have been advised that it presents a powerful graphic and visual record of what really happened. Rodney King anyone? Of course, the difference between the two incidents is that in Los Angeles there was a conscience that could be troubled by the beating. In Israel, there is no such thing. The number of Israelis who will be shocked, scandalized or even troubled by this murder is very small. The majority will justify it as an unfortunate necessity given the terror war Israel confronts.
83 thoughts on “Border Policeman Admits Shooting Jilani at Point Blank Range, U.S. Consulate Offers Widow Little Help – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
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This story is so horrifying. The Israeli army and border police new doctrine is based on fear – whenever presented with a hint of danger, even if its totally imagined – the soldiers and border police respond with deadly power against civilians.
The problem is they don’t see Palestinians as “civilians.” They see them as “the enemy.”
Indeed they do. I say they because personally I don’t… but likewise, _most_ Palestinians see Israel/Jews as “the enemy”.
But the Palestinian police haven’t really been involved in killing innocent Israeli civilians – not even the settler nut cases in Hebron. And making an equation between colonizer and colonised is just intellectuelly dishonest from my point of view.
Israelis also don’t venture into Palestinian territory (except settlers, of course). And Israelis have not executed vehicular terrorist acts on Palestinians in the past, so it is not so outlandish for Border Policemen to mistake such an accident for something intentional.
Also, I fail to see how making an equation is intellectually dishonest. Are you insinuating that it is fair for Palestinians to see Israelis merely as their enemy, but for Israelis, it would not be fair to say the same about Palestinians?
I agree, Deir Yassin. This man’s death will be swept down the memory hole, as usual when it concerns Palestinians.
I was talking of Palestinians being killed on a nearly daily basis by Israelis – and I don’t really care whether it’s the Border Police or the IDF – for the mere fact of being Palestinians. And I know what I am talking about.
I’m not going to reiterate the “Helen Thomas”-error, but I’m trying to say that some of those people lived in Palestine for a long, long time, and some of them happened to come from abroad. And they didn’t really act as guests are supposed to do, at least according to local traditions. You understand, what I’m trying to say. From having a beautiful house with an orchard, the Pals ended up in the garage, being locked up from the outside. A 22% out of 100% compared to 78% out of nothing makes, in my opinion, a huge difference as far as the animosity is concerned.
“Israelis also don’t venture into Palestinian territory (except settlers, of course).”
False. There are at any given time, in fact, non-settler Israelis and other Jews actually living among Palestinians in “Palestinian territory”. Others “venture” very regularly into “Palestinian territory” and do not find themselves at all in danger, except from the Israeli Occupation Forces and, of course, the Border Police.
“And Israelis have not executed vehicular terrorist acts on Palestinians in the past…”
Also false. the first vehicular terrorist acts ever committed in Palestine were committed against Palestinians by the Zionists, and later Israelis.
“Also, I fail to see how making an equation is intellectually dishonest.”
Then think about it for a while, and maybe it will come to you why it is dishonest to equate an occupied and oppressed people with those who occupy and oppress them.
Are you insinuating that it is fair for Palestinians to see Israelis merely as their enemy, but for Israelis, it would not be fair to say the same about Palestinians? Or do you also equate the slave with the slave owner? The raped with the rapist? The weak with the strong?
Yes… if I happen to accidently venture into Gaza… I would not find myself at all in danger. Right.
First, Gaza is not the only so-called “Palestinian territory”, as you know very well. Second, Israelis and other Jews have lived in Gaza among the Gazans and not only not been in danger, they have been welcomed,. Third, it is very difficult for an Israeli to go to Gaza now, not because they are in danger there, but because the Israeli government does not allow it. This is particularly the case, for some “strange” reason, for journalists. Fourth, as I write this there are Jews in Gaza, some of whom might be Israeli citizens, and they are not in danger. In fact, the Gazans are by and large happy that they are there.
On the other hand, it is possible that you WOULD be in danger in Gaza given your attitude. Therefore, I would not recommend you go to Gaza unless you are a very good actor so that you can hide your attitude well.
What makes you think Gazans would welcome me with open arms? If my government did not disallow passage into Gaza, I would have loved to go there and see things for myself. I have nothing against Palestinians and it is absurd they are so close yet so far away. Same goes for Gazans never crossing the border to Israel… if you ask me, that’s why there is so much hate from both sides. A hidden enemy. One of Richard’s recommended movies – Death in Gaza – demonstrates this.
My attitude? What sort of attitude is that? I honestly have no idea what sort of person you think I am, but let me assure you – you are wrong. It is probably a biased image of how “Israelis” are.
I never said Gazans would welcome you with open arms. How they received you would depend entirely on you.
As for your attitude, you have displayed it plainly here on these pages. One need not make assumptions.
You have different attitudes towards the colonized: either you ignore them, or you just ‘love’ them (in the Orientalistic way of course) or you consider them dangerous (the ‘as-soon-as-they-get-the-opportunity-they-would-kill-me attitude).
Very close Jewish friends of mine (Israelis or not) have been to the West Bank and Gaza, and they just couldn’t get over how they were received. Everybody invited them for dinner, everybody wanted to speak with them, telling them that they knew this was not a Muslim-Jew thing but a oppressor-oppressed relation. I’ve seen friends crying at the mere memory of how they were treated by the Pals. So of course, the Israeli government doesn’t wan’t their citizens to go to the OT – the average Israeli might discover that the Palestinians are normal human beings: that’s very, very dangerous for their continuing occupation.
I honestly have no idea what sort of attitude you are talking about, so if you want me to back up my thoughts and ideas, you’d have to clarify what you mean…
It is widely known that Arabs have a distinguished culture of hospitality. However, judging by how Palestinians perceive Israelis (as evident here, in the media, etc.), I find it hard to believe that this famous hospitality would be practiced with Israelis.
Like I said, I would have loved to experience things for myself in Gaza and the West Bank, but as an Israeli, I have genuine fear for my well-being. You may say this is a product of what my country projects to its citizens, but I have experienced, on many different occasions, hostility from Arabs and other foreigners while traveling abroad.
I do know that people very often react violently – at least verbally – when they meet Israelis. I’ve had the experience in Denmark (where I grew up), receiving a group of Algerian adults. One of the guys, realizing that the guy sitting next to him in the Youth Hostel was Isreali, started insulting him. This young man, of Moroccan origin, understood perfectly well the insults, and explained to me and the tour guide that instead of going on one of those drug-drunk-trips to India after military service, he wanted to go off on his own, away from everything Israeli and everyone Israeli. I’ve been thinking of him often – I wonder whether he’s okay today.
You should go to the West Bank on a tour with one of the numerous joint Israeli-Palestinian organizations. Okay, if you’re a sympathizer of Kahane and tells everyone (I guess you would’t be here though) you might have trouble, but otherwise I swear to you, you wouldn’t be bothered. I’m just astonished that Israel is producing that kind of fear – well, after all, it’s logic, from the Zionist point of view.
Of course I am not going to be harmed if I’m part of an organized group. I was talking about going in alone, and into Gaza, not the West Bank. (although I do plan on visiting the Taybeh brewery near Ramallah)
“Of course I am not going to be harmed if I’m part of an organized group.”
Sigh! Shai, there are many, many Israelis who “go in alone” – AND in to Gaza. Some have lived there – alone – for years, and the only harm they are subjected to is at the hands of Israelis, not Palestinians. It is Israelis, not Palestinians that make it
‘Go in alone’? Shai, you’re talking like this is some highly charged military operation. Safety in numbers. Danger for the individual. This is exactly the kind of attitude that features so often in the speech of Israeli government officials and large segments of the Israeli press. The occupation is built on fear, and that fear is built on a fantasy that is perfectly expressed in a passage from Jonathan Garfinkel’s book ‘Ambivalence’. The author (a Canadian Jew who was educated in a Jewish school with a strict Zionist ethos) makes a visit to Israel. Contrary to expectation, one day he ends up in a refugee camp. He is given a tour by some schoolboys, entertained by the schoolteacher, and cordially invited back. Then he celebrates Pesach with some orthodox friends who have made aliyah:
‘I’ve decided to embrace the spirit of Passover as best I can by being the ‘simple son’ in the Haggadah, the one who asks the most straightforward and innocent questions. After all, I’m a foreigner, a tourist. An idiot.
“What would happen if a Jew walked across the Qalandia checkpoint and into the refugee camp?”
“He’d be torn apart limb from limb,” Martin says.’
You may insist that you’re not like Martin, because you don’t harbour such fears where Palestinians in Qalandia are concerned – your fear is exclusively for Gaza, which is a different thing entirely. Your fears are reasonable, unlike Martin’s. Those remote Palestinians in Gaza really WOULD hurt you, unlike the harmless specimens at Taybeh. Most Israelis seem to have a Palestinian bogeyman somewhere, whether it’s in Gaza or Ramallah or the cupboard under the stairs. No matter what address you give it, it doesn’t exist.
Are there Palestinians out there who would hurt you if they got the opportunity? Yes. I grew up in Saudi Arabia, and the threat of terrorist attacks was part of my day-to-day existence – I am familiar with evacuation drills and security guards and the need to have your sleeping quarters behind a metal blast-door that can resist grenades. But what does it prove? Just that certain people want to harm me. I haven’t got a clue where they are. They could be anyone, anywhere. All I know is that for every Saudi that would harm me, there are thousands that would help me. I know this because I lived amongst them. If you lived amongst Gazans maybe you would make the same discovery. But the Gazans are remote from you, exactly as the Israeli government wants them to be, and so they remain fearsome.
Thank you so much, Mr. Silverstein, for covering this tragedy. It is so important for outsiders to see not only the numbers of killed by the IDF but also that we’re talking about human beings of flesh and blood.
Thank you so much for helping bring this story to light. His family deserves to have the truth published.
The difference is that its the IDF and border police Job to see them as civilians and protect them.
Are you serious? Protect Palestinians? Protect them from whom? Themselves?
Absolutely. In the best of all possible worlds Israeli police would do their jobs like police authorities in other nations which respect the rule of law. Hopefully, that will someday be the case in Israel.
A gentle correction. The “conscience” you speak of in America was more embarrassment. Remember the conscience of the jurors in the resulting trial found the police officers NOT GUILTY. It was the rioting that followed this verdict that got some stirred up everyone’s “conscience”.
cant see any pic…did you take it down?
I can see it. It may be something to do with your browser settings.
just a thopught there, but naybe he should not have tried to run the policemen over. None of you know what it is like to live under Palestinian suicide bombers where one blows himself on a bus and and if he survives, waits to detonate the second charge once rescue forces arrive. This is the reality of Palestinian attacks. The only way to neitralize that, is neutralize the attacker.
Crying over a man who tried to run over police officers, is like crying over a serial killer who has lost his fundamental right for freedom of occupation, and freedom of movement curtailed by his arrest.
And I will end my post here with a henrew saying:
Those who take mercy on the crewel, will end up abusing the merciful…
There was stoning going on as he passed the policemen & a rock shattered his windshield & he couldn’t even see where he was driving. The family says this is what likely happened. At any rate, leaving the scene of an accident is a violation of the law. But in most countries you don’t get yr brains blown out over such an infraction. He didn’t “try” to run over police officers. You don’t know the first thing about what really happened. Where do you get yr information anyway other than fr. Yisrael HaYom likely?
The only one who is cruel here is you. Ziad Jilani was an innocent victim who made one small mistake that cost his life. The truly cruel are the ones who took it fr. him and left three children fatherless and a wife a widow.
BTW, did you hear that the witnesses claimed the shooter danced around the body of the victim crying “I killed an Arab” over & over. I don’t know that this is true. But Maan, a reliable news source, quotes eyewitnesses confirming this. Now who is cruel & who is merciful???
You’re just ignoring facts and automatically assuming the man purposely ran over someone, when witnesses have said this is not the case.
Really? Someone who even runs over another person deliberately is not the equivalent of a serial killer. Your statement makes no sense.
“…to live under Palestinian suicide bombers…”
I think you’ve got it backward. It’s the Palestinians who are living under a crewel and murderous Israeli occupation.
“where one blows himself on a bus and and if he survives, waits to detonate the second charge once rescue forces arrive. ”
You got it all wrong. How can a suicide bomber survive his suicide? This MO requires another bomber to detonate the second charge. Border police know that, even if you don’t.
I guess he can thank every other palestinian “civilian” that ever walked into a bus station or up and down Ben Yehuda market place, or into a TLV disco or drove a bulldozer through the streets of Jerusalem.
Israel has policies of dealing with such cases that may not seem fair, just and humane but they are effective at disposing of potentially violent situations. So maybe the guy was not wearing an explosive vest, but he may have been holding a detonation mechnisom that would have blown up his entire car.
What about the “hit and run” victim? Don’t hear much about that? Who did he hit? Why was he running?
True, the magav are ruthless bastards….but they are our bastards and their psyche is shaped bay generations of transgressions, violence and injust acts carried untoward them by the palestinians and their supporters in this and in far off lands. The world can not get used to Jews that fight back and stand up for themselves….Welcome to Israel. Home of the Jews…Love it or leave it.
And I may be the heir of the throne of Louis XIV. But I’m not & Jilani didn’t either.
I’ve covered this story & if you’re ignorant about the details read my blog posts. THere were 4 policemen & he apparently grazed one of them. I haven’t heard anything about any injuries so they were light at worst.
This is one of the unintentionally truest & most apt comments any pro-Israel commenter has written here.
Unfortunately, you added this mendcious addendum. The Border Police are the initiators of violence. They are not responding to transgressions against themselves. The incidents of outright murder & sexual degradation I’ve documented here at their hands are too numerous to repeat. Just do a search on “border police” & you’ll find at least 20 posts I’ve written about diff. incidents in which they, with absolutely no provocation committee horrific acts against Palestinians.
You are a perfect example of the moral swamp into which Israel has sunk along with its right wing supporters in the Diaspora. You claim that the border police is acting in vengeance against the history of anti-Semitism throughout the world? What lunacy!! What total lunacy! It is this type of attitude which drives so many Jews away from Israel. You will be lucky if you have supporters left in the not too distant future.
On the contrary Mr. Silverstein
I refuse to be pulled down into the moral swamp of double standards that is being imposed on Israel and her Jewish citizens, in fact the swamp of double standards that has been imposed on the Jews throughout history. I can guarantee that, no matter how many brutal and homicidal acts you can recount as being perpetrated by the Ma’gav, I can point to 100 fold more that have been perpetrated agains the Jews in every decade of every century going back to the dawn of time for the mere fact that they tried to eek out a Jewish existance.
THe state of Israel since its inception has desired nothing less than to live in peace with its neighbors. The founders of the state took what little sliver of swamp and dessert they had and made it bloom. This success was orchestrated not because of the exisiting inhabatants but in spite of them. It was orchestrated by a nation without hope creating hope. Israel is the most advance nation in the middle east because they used their brains and their resources for the betterment of the region and got urinated on in return, by her scornful neighbors. And don’t give me the “US aid”line of BS either because Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and the Palestinians have all beenefited form billions of annual support. Israel is the only country that has anything to show for it.
Let me ask you…what would you do with $500 million and 35 km of prime mediteranean beach front property? I know, I know…turn it into the biggest squatter camp on the planet.
You want to neatly pigeon hole me along with the right wing as instigators and trouble makers devoid of vision and sympathy. This is exactly the shtetl mentality that still exists in you and your left wing bretheren. It is what kept our people in captivity for 2,000 years. Get wise Mr. Silverstein. THis act by the Magav, though heinous and unfortunate is a small and insignificant event that gets sensationalized by left wing media puppets in the grand scheme to again vilify the Jews. When it is all said and done, do you think you will be remembered by the Free palestine movement as a shining beacon of light for their cause or just another jew that deserves to go the way of all the right wing diaspora supporters?
“I can point to 100 fold more that have been perpetrated against the Jews in every decade of every century going back to the dawn of time for the mere fact that they tried to eek out a Jewish existence.”
Did the Palestinians do that? Otherwise your rant is really pointless.
And the “dawn of time” really makes me crack up, to tell you the truth. But let’s get back to the Middle Ages if you will:
How do you think women or serfs in medieval Europe or women and slaves anywhere in the world (including ancient Israel) were treated? It is not as if human rights were in place for all of humanity throughout history and ONLY the poor Jews were exempt. Get real.
And I loved this bit too:
“The founders of the state took what little sliver of swamp and dessert they had and made it bloom.”
No need to destroy more than 400 Palestinians villages then, if it was only “slivers of swamp and desert” that the Jewish immigrants took over.
(Do they teach you this stuff in school in Israel?!!)
I can see this rant coming fr. a mile away. O how the world has mistreated us! Woe unto us. Look how we’ve suffered. What the world owes us. And if won’t pay then we’ll just take what we’re owed.
Once again & more clearly you’ve made the absolutely idiotic argument that the Border Police’s brutality is justified by the previous suffering of the Jewish people. This is an odious, morally bankrupt position. But you’re welcome to it. It does, however, totally discredit you as someone that any reasonable person can take seriously.
It certainly has desired to live in peace w. its neighbors…as long as they accepted Israel’s terms for peace. And the inconvenient fact is that its neighbors haven’t bent over and played dead. They’ve had their own ideas, by God, & that’s so damn unfortunate fr. Israel’s pt of view.
Omigod. I can’t believe yr trotting out that hoary fairy tale. Are you Herzl’s nephew for God’s sake? You sound like you’ve been reading or living Herzl’s dream.
But it’s not a success as long as those pesky Palestinians are still around, is it?
At the expense of the Palestinians, whose hope Israel’s Occupation extinguished.
Yeah, yeah. Just think of all those ”advanced’ weapons Israel uses on its Middle Eastern neighbors. It’s quite impressive.
Oh really. Can you point me to anything Israel did for the betterment of anyone other than Israel?
If the shoe fits…being “devoid of vision and sympathy” certainly fits you like a glove.
I swear you ARE Herzl’s MUCH younger brother. Where do you dig up these classical Zionist chestnuts. The problem w. Israel as manifested in the tenets of classical Zionism is that it rebelled so earnestly against the shtetl & Diaspora that it became what it hated–the embodiment of those who used to hate & kill Jews in the Diaspora.
No, actually it was the nationalist chauvinism of those who rebelled against the Romans & were destroyed which led to the Diaspora & if it were not for Yochanan Ben Zakkai who embraced galut, there would never have been a Diaspora OR a modern state of Israel. There would no longer BE Jews w/o Ben Zakkai’s desertion of the homeland after the Roman conquest.
Sorry, but a “heinous” event cannot be, by definition small or insignificant. A heinous event is large & significant as Jilani’s murder is.
I won’t let you come remotely close to including me in that passage. YOu better be careful how you characterize me and my work & read my comment rules before you disparage me in that way.
I am doing what I’m doing not for Palestine or Palestinians, but for myself as a Jew. I frankly don’t care how you or Israelis remember me. I know that in my heart I did what needed to be done & written on behalf of Israel & the rest of humanity in that region.
Really Richard??? REALLY? Do you really believe this? This explains so much about your ridiculous claims and your biased basis for any moral argument. I suggest you follow your own suggestions, and “do a little research”, since I “won’t do your job for you”, and find out the IMMENSE amount of Israeli contributions in nearly every field of human interest.
You’re doing very sloppy reading or else you’re deliberately distorting what I wrote. The commenter claimed that Israel had worked tirelessly to better the lives of those “in the region.” Or did you forget that? So I ask once again, what has Israel done that has bettered the lives of anyone in the region except Israel?
First of all, I did not distort anything you wrote. You may have meant to write something else, but I did not misquote you. If what you actually meant to say was “Can you point me to anything Israel did for the betterment of anyone in the region?”, that’s something else.
I would broaden that question further and ask you if you can point me to anything anyone has ever done for anyone else. There is more than one theory that states humans are completely selfish (giving in order to feel better with oneself). I am also not going to ask you the same about what exactly Palestinians have done for the betterment of anyone (but themselves) in the region.
Instead, let me ask you something else: What are you trying to prove/claim by asking this question?
Now you’re being entirely disingenuous. In future you will quote me in context. Shirin seemed to have understood clearly what I wrote in her comment. Yet you for some reason have a reading comprehension problem. Don’t get cute w. me. I have very little patience with being misconstrued esp. deliberately so.
YOu still haven’t pointed out anything Israel has done for its neighbors. I’m waiting.
@ Mr Silverstein
“Can you point me to anything Israel did for the betterment of anyone other than Israel ?”
Honestly, here I think you are very unfair to Israel. They did go to Haiti to save the poor guys after the earthquake. They went there very anonymously and I do belive for only altruistic reasons :-)))
You are so lost Giora. I feel sorry for you……..
I cannot beleive you are justifying injustice because of what happened to jews throughout history. Out of all people jews should be huminatarian because of what they went through. I know you do not represent all jews since my best friends are jews and totally disagree with you.
“THis act by the Magav, though heinous and unfortunate is a small and insignificant event that gets sensationalized by left wing media puppets in the grand scheme to again vilify the Jews.”
Well that small and insignificant event only cost me my brother’s life. Who cares that another father, husband, brother, son, cousin, uncle is gone (is that what you are saying?). My kids have never seen their uncle and thanks to people who think like you they will never get to know their wonderfull loving uncle.
All we are asking for is justice for the wrongdoing in my brother’s case and to make sure the truth comes out so this never happens to anybody again.
Thank you so much for being willing to share your grief with us. I will do everything in my power to ensure that your brother’s life will not have been in vain and the Border Police will not given a free ride.
I am deeply sorry for your loss. You indeed should feel sorry for Giora, but for different reasons. You should feel sorry for him for the same reason I feel sorry for Gazans; the regional conditions (poverty in Gaza, terrorist attacks on Israel, etc.) have distorted one of the most fundamental moral traits: compassion. It is very difficult for both Israelis and Palestinians to feel compassion for each other. I try to maintain my own humaneness but it’s a challenge to relatives, friends and acquaintances of Israeli/Palestinian aggression victims. Since the region is so tiny, pretty much everyone is such a person.
I could not not have, however, not notice this:
While this is perhaps true to some extent, it also demonstrates the double-standard/bias about expectations from Jews/Israel. Somehow, we are expected to be above all others, are constantly examined and time after time shown not to be (I never said we were).
Again, my condolences.
Here is an interesting piece about why Israel is singled out for attention:
I recognize a lot of what the author says. Some extra things he does not mention but which are true for me is that I do not feel responsible for what Kabila does in Zaire, or the generals in Burma, although it sickens me, whereas in case of what happened to the Palestinians we Europeans bear a direct responsibility. During apartheid attention for South Africa was also disproportionate, because we (as Dutch especially) felt responsible, and far more involved that in case of oppression in other countries.
The negative attention for Israel is also a result of the overwhelming amount of positive attention that preceded it (which Israeli’s never complained about). A friend of mine lives in Golda Meir Street and squares and lanes are called after Ben-Gurion etc. Elderly (Christian) people without children often leave their inheritance to the Jewish National Fund (the JNF has been placing ads in Dutch newspapers for years). No one leaves their money to the generals in Burma or names streets after them, but Israel has been idolized and given preferential treatment like this for years.
When Israel misbehaves therefore, the reaction is stronger: There are feelings of betrayal, there is anger over the suspicions cast over one’s concern with the Palestinians (the accusation of anti-Semitism), and there is irritation because Israel demands to be idolized still, continuously giving itself silly compliments which it does not deserve (“the most moral army in the world” etc.)
I agree that it is not fair to demand better behavior from Jews than from others because of their history, but I hope the above explains things a bit.
Thanks for the link. I will be reading it at work… (slow day 😉
Also thank you for the admission that Israel is not receiving proportionate observation/condemnation/praise.
As for the IDF and its morality – while there are definitely _soldiers_ that decide to sometimes take the law into their hands and commit war crimes (I have heard first-hand stories from friends who have been in Gaza during operation Cast Lead), the IDF as an army has very strict moral guidelines. I can personally attest (having served myself) to difficult moral decisions that have been made which will probably surprise most of you.
Did you not read the reports in Haaretz & B’Tselem of widespread admissions by soldiers that they or their colleagues engaged in overt acts that would be considered war crimes and that these acts were not only countenanced, but directed by superior officers? And further Haaretz stories which reviewed military doctrine for the Operation & proved that the IDF fr the highest echelons meant for this to be a war not just against Hamas, but against Gaza in its entirety. In other words, a war against civilians. Did you miss that? Where were you when these stories came out? In hibernation?
I understand that you honestly & sincerely believe what you say to be true, but you’ll have to pardon us for being unwilling to take what you say seriously since it is so completely at odds w. everything we know happened during the Gaza massacre.
It is hard for me to reconcile your experiences with the awful amount of stone throwers or children being shot year after year (I am not even mentioning Cast Lead here). So I wonder: How long ago did you serve?
Also, doesn’t it defeat the purpose to have strict moral guidelines in an army that is used for an immoral enterprise (occupation)?
Maybe people in the IDF do have high-minded discussions about moral dilemma’s as part of their training, but soldiers who shoot children or unarmed people hardly ever get prosecuted, and that sends a clearer message.
Finally, what would your reaction be if the Dutch army constantly boasted that it was “the most moral army in the world”. Honestly!
Sorry for the double post, also admittance*.
A very interesting piece, but the author admits to having a double standard by applying different moral standards to Israel and Palestinians (or any other nation he sees as ‘foreign’ for that matter). In fact, I think he is rather racist, as he expects “less” from nations that are not “like the Brits”.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic.
It’s not just discussions. It translates to canceled operations, altered operations posing greater risk to IDF soldiers while minimizing potential civilian casualties, and so on. This comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo&feature=related (you may have already seen it before)
I don’t know why soldiers who commit war crimes do not get prosecuted. Probably because Israel wants to keep these skeletons in its closet. Perhaps they are dealt with, but it does not make it to the media to avoid negative PR. I’m sure every army has its own share of misdeeds that get wept under the carpet – I’ve not heard many such stories. Perhaps it is such because, as we have established, no other country is examined as closely as Israel is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgZu6tcZU&feature=channel
I agree such actions cannot be tolerated, however I think it is ludicrous that everyone disregards numerous incidents of Hamas abusing Palestinian citizens during conflicts. The same friend also mentioned more than one incident where Palestinians were waving a white flag in one of their hands… and a rifle in the other.
I don’t know anything about the Dutch army – it may very well be the most moral army in the world.
Another hoary old right wing tale. Offer a single incident (let alone numerous) of Hamas doing so. If not, do NOT bring up this claim.
Hardly. No other country poses the danger to its region & the world that Israel does in terms of its nuclear capacity and endless hostilities with a host of neighbors. Surely that deserves the world’s scrutiny.
I have read every conceivable story I could get my hands on about Cast Lead & I never heard such a story. It is made up. Pls do NOT bring anecdotal stories here which you cannot prove. I strongly prefer real evidence that can be shown or proven. Not bubbe meisehs.
No, Costa Rica has the most moral army in the world, i.e. they have no army !
It is always amusing to hear Israelis and Zionists whining about the supposed “double standard” when the reality is that they do not want Israel to be held to the same standards of international law and morality as others, but to be treated as an exception on account of 1) Jewish perpetual victimhood, 2) Israel’s exceptional nature.
“Somehow, we are expected to be above all others, are constantly examined and time after time shown not to be (I never said we were).”
It is you who set yourself above others when you strut around constantly crowing that you are “The Only Democracy In The Middle East”™, “A Light Unto The Nations”™, and that your army is “The Most Moral Army In The World”™ that religiously follows a policy of “Purity Of Arms”™ while simultaneously whining that your perpetual victimhood entitles you to exceptional latitude in the application of international law, human rights requirements, and basic morality. If you don’t want people to expect you to behave better than others, then stop constantly boasting about your innate superiority.
“there are definitely _soldiers_ that decide to sometimes take the law into their hands and commit war crimes blahblahblah “I have heard first-hand stories from friends who have been in Gaza during operation Cast Lead blahblahblah “the IDF as an army has very strict moral guidelines” pardonmewhileIthrowup “difficult moral decisions” blahblahblah….
Maybe YOU actually believe all that rubbish, but you’re not liable to convince very many people anymore. As for so-called operation cast lead, the evidence is overwhelming that what Israel did to the Palestinians was not a few “soldiers who took the law into their own hands”, but policy that came down from the highest levels. Pretending otherwise is a lot like claiming that the Israeli soldiers and commanders who were surrounding Sabra and Shatilla, letting the murderous Phalange bastards in and out while keeping the residents inside, standing on rooftops looking down at the scene, and lighting the murderers’ way at night with flares thought there was a tea party going on in there. Whom, other than yourself, do you think you are kidding?
Oh, Shai, how very clever of you to link to UN Watch’s Youtube channel expecting people here not to know that UNWatch is just one more of the plethora of hasbara groups masquerading as something else. You really are out of your league here I am afraid..
Richard, my friend was an EYE WITNESS. It was him – in Gaza, during Cast Lead.
By the way, that friend is a leftist activist, having participated in many of Gush Shalom’s, Peace Now’s etc. demonstrations and campaigns (as I have myself). So an active member of leftist organizations (regarded by most Israelis to actually be radical) is telling right wing tales. Nice. You may not want to believe that Hamas (or anyone else in the world!) don’t hold the same human rights values as you (and I) do, but that doesn’t change reality.
If you regard that as a lie, you leave no space for any sort of discussion. Please inform me if you’re going to consider that a lie, so I can spare myself my wasted efforts to show you some things from an Israeli point of view you may not be familiar with. It is frustrating enough to have most of my valid, rational arguments be labeled as propaganda and “hasbara” simply because they don’t sit well with your biased view. So just go ahead and tell me that what I’ve said is exactly that, and I will not waste any more of my time here.
And Shirin, I am going to take your comment about me being out of your league as a compliment.
Tell him to e mail me the story himself to me directly & tell me in what unit he served & where.
Now, you’re slinging the bull. No one w. your views would go to a Gush Shalom demonstration. Do you really expect anyone here to believe that someone who quotes from UN Watch would also attend a Gush Shalom protest? I know the leaders of Gush Shalom. I reckon they will never have heard of you. Tell me the name of anyone involved with Gush Shalom who knows you to verify yr claim.
I don’t view anything you say as credible. I’ve suggested above ways in which you can prove yr credibility.
Literally hundreds, if not thousands of Israelis w. yr precise views have published comments here & you think you’re going to tell me something about the “Israeli point of view” (whatever that menas–I think it means your own particular pt of view which you conveniently mislabel the pt of view of all Israelis)???
Valid & rational according to whose criteria?
It’s a compliment if Shirin’s playing major league ball and you’re playing in Class D minor league baseball (don’t know the European soccer equivalent) & you see that as complimentary to you. I wouldn’t.
Pffft, why the hell would I bother my friend to contact you? To earn your trust? He served in Sayeret Givati and that’s all you’re going to know. Do you realize the military forbids you to disclose such details? Why don’t I tell you everything I know? I served in the Intelligence, how convenient!
And as I have predicted, you accuse my of lying. About everything which I have not “proven” to be true. Even if I did ask my friend to describe his experiences in Gaza for you, you would accuse him of lying, so what’s the point? And do you realize thousands of people participate in Gush Shalom demonstrations? Do you think each and every one is personally acquainted with its leaders?? Why don’t you simply say I couldn’t have participated in any left wing activities because I served in the IDF? Because it’s mandatory? A real human rights white knight would refuse contributing to the evil zionist occupation, would he not?
So, I bid you adieu. I will continue reading your posts because for the most part, as they are often revealing and interesting, albeit somewhat lacking in the area of objectivity (not posting ANYTHING that is positive or optimistic about Israel).
You have permission to give away my e-mail address to anyone who’s interested in contacting me.
So I’ve given you an opportunity to prove yr unnamed friend’s story & you’ve refused to accept my offer. As for military prohibitions, oh please! ONce again, did you not read the series of stories in Haaretz of veterans of the Operation who told publicly far more damning information than this & faced no repurcussions. I will not accuse yr friend of lying. As a good journalist I choose to verify stories before I accept them at face value. As for yr serving in intelligence–it figures. I only wish you were more intelligent. Once again, I’m offering you an opportunity to prove to me that the story you recount 2nd hand is actually true & you’re spurning my offer. Just for the record.
As for accusing you of lying, those are your words not mine. I’ve accused you of lacking credibility. I don’t presume you’d understand the diff. but there is one. I’ve offered you an opportunity to prove yr credibility & you’re refused.
Regarding Gush Shalom, tell me privately your real name so that I can Gush Shalom’s leadership whether they’ve ever heard of you or you’ve ever signed any statements they’ve offered or joined the group or shown any sense of affiliation w. them. It’s certainly also possible that you attended a Gush Shalom demo as part of yr intelligence service, though I have no way of knowing that.
I know many decorated IDF officers who participate in groups like Combatants for Peace, Breaking the Silence & Gush Shalom. And I honor them for it. But I strongly doubt you are among the latter.
That’s mighty white of you. Do invite Tom Friedman and Salam Fayyad to join you for a pint!
“…Palestinians were waving a white flag in one of their hands… and a rifle in the other.”
Wow! Seriously, Shai?! This is huge news. I had no idea Palestinians were that monumentally and self-destructively stupid. Waving a white flag in one hand while brandishing a rifle with the other? That would have to make Palestinians the most suicidally stupid people in the history of mankind. Either that or the most confused. Based on the Darwin principle it’s a wonder they didn’t manage to wipe themselves off the face of the earth centuries ago.
First and foremost, as a father of three small kids myself, my deepest condolences and sympathies go out to you and your families. No family should have to endure the ordeal that you are going through and believe it or not despite comments that I have made and comments made about me I see the humanitarian side of this incident very clearly.
This said, and to defend/explain myself, in no way did I ever intend my comments to take the personal significance out of what you and your family are feeling. Nor do I believe that that The Border Policeman who perpetrated this event should not be accountable for their actions. Obviously if there was wrong doing then someone needs to pay. This is part of living in a democracy.
My comment about this event being insignificant is that before any real substantial investigation has been carried out by either side, blame is being placed and conclusions are being drawn and that backs up the second part of the statement, in that these inconclusive facts are being used to villify Israel.
I wish you and your family a long peaceful life.
Which is why no one will “pay” for this murder. Israel is not fully a democracy despite what you may believe.
Amira Hass knows what happened & testified to that fact. The Border Policeman admitted he executed Ziad. The neighbors know & described what happened. You & the Border Police are the only ones who believe the case is “inconclusive.”
You have unmitigated gall to say what you’ve said here demeaning Ziad’s life & then attempt to offer good wishes. Do NOT think you have the right. Do not!
You might be sincere in your condolences and sympathies but I can reassure we did not and still do not live in a democracy is Isreal. We are never treated equally and all my Israeli friends from Jerusalem can vouch for that. I was born in Israel and raised there. I did my PhD in the U.S. and started working and when I wanted to go back home to visit my family last year Israel would not renew my travel document and took away my residency rights. What democracy is this? Any Jew that wants to go to Israel from anywhere in the world is paid money to do Aliya but a Palestinian that was born in Israel cannot come back to their own homeland even for a visit. I could not even go to my brother’s funeral because I have to get a visa to enter my own country. All I can say is that you are living in a fantacy that Israel is a democracy……..
OMG another Professional Jewish Victim. You people make the Jews sound like they belong in the Guinness Book of World Records as the most pathetic shlemiels in the history of mankind, incapable of anything other than wallowing exuberantly in their perpetual victimhood – a sort of more gruesome version of Woody Allen.
Well, if that is how you want to see the human group of which you are a member, do be my guest. Oddly, when I think of Jews both historically and currently I tend to think of them first as a collection of human beings like every other collection of human beings. I see them as being composed of individuals ranging from ignominious to glorious, and mostly in between with the overwhelming majority being quite ordinary people living ordinary lives. After that my mind turns to the Jews who, throughout history, and in every society they have been part of, contributed wonderfully to humanity.
Isn’t it interesting how some Jews insist upon viewing and portraying Jews in such a sad way.
“THe state of Israel since its inception has desired nothing less than to live in peace with its neighbors.”
Well, finally you make a reasonably accurate statement. It is quite true that there are very few things the State of Israel has desired less than to live in peace with its neighbors, and it has proven that at every opportunity.
“The founders of the state took what little sliver of swamp and dessert they had and made it bloom.
And what little sliver of swamp and desert would that be? Could that be the same one whose famous oranges fetched such high prices in Europe, and even in the United States? The same one that was considered one of the bread baskets of the Ottoman empire? The one that exported wheat to European and Asian countries?
Oh, and by the way, about those swamps the Zionist drained…turns out that has been recognized as a pretty big mistake, and one that the Israeli government has tried to correct by recreating some of those swamps. It seems the wetlands are kind of critical in all kinds of ways.
“This success was orchestrated not because of the exisiting inhabatants but in spite of them.”
Indeed it was since the success was predicated on the land being – well, as they say, “without a people”, and not only was it not without a people, the people were actually really, really attached to the land. Inconvenient, but that’s what happens when you make assumptions without checking out (or caring) about the reality.
“Israel is the most advance nation in the middle east because they used their brains and their resources for the betterment of the region…”
Now THAT’s funny. Do explain specifically how Israel has contributed to the betterment of the region. Better yet, go explain that to a group of Palestinians, or Golani Syrians, or Lebanese. I am sure they are eager to hear how their region has been bettered by Israel.
“and got urinated on in return, by her scornful neighbors.”
Would you like some cheese and crackers with that whine? And while you are waiting for the snacks, has it ever occurred to you that when you dump piles of s*** all over your neighbors for decades you might be lucky if all they do is urinate on you in return?
Look at this Giora:
(Will we ever hear from you again?)
My heartfelt condolences to you Faith. The picture of your brother with his youngest daughter brought me to tears when I read about the story of his murder. I have a child of about the same age, and I know he would never get over the loss of his father. I am so sorry for you, and your brothers whole family.
giora, it is time for your medication…..yeah, I know, anti-semetism, holocaust, only democracy, we suck, they suck more, its 1938 all over again, blather, blather, blather…. Israel is like a giant insane asylum.
How would you like it if it had been you or your husband who was shot this way? Would you still say it was a good thing? What kind of person are you, that you would be comfortable with such a fascistic way of law enforcement, shoot first and ask questions later?
How many years has it been since you’ve seen a suicide bombing? And what country escapes the occasional lunatic who either shoots into a crowd or does some other irrational act? No one lives in a safe world, so stop dreaming.
You would not have such transgressions committed against you if you were not ruthless and illegal occupiers. You reap what you sow. And Palestine is the home of the Palestinians, by the way.
Mary, there are rules and laws on the duties of an occupier – since Israel is the sovereign, it is responsible for the wellbeing of the people under occupation – that means that it needs to protect their lives, rights and property.
Something that Israel fails to do because it fails to realize itself as an occupier – israel declares every act of aggresion it does as self defense.
This is so tragic and heartbreaking. This man’s wife and girls deserve justice.
“I have read every conceivable story I could get my hands on about Cast Lead & I never heard such a story. It is made up. Pls do NOT bring anecdotal stories here which you cannot prove. I strongly prefer real evidence that can be shown or proven. Not bubbe meisehs”
You know, ive been following ur site for a litle while
responding here and there.
I still fail to understand what makes u claim u “support israel”, and probably will never understand.
this is probably my last post here
and i feel i have to write/ explain some basic stuff to you, which u chose to be blind to:
When you write that you “have read every story that u could get ur hands on” it doesnt mean you’ve read ALL THE STORIES and know about everything and anything that happened in gaza. Its ur right, of course, to chose whom to believe. You can chose mary as ur primary infomation source (may i remind u mary wrote about her “16 dead friends” on the marmara, while apparently 9 and NOT 16 people were killed, and u didnt chose to tell her she lies, not to mention she actually used the term *friends* to describe 7 non existing corpses. kinda makes u wonder..), but it doesnt mean you know anything and everything that happens in gaza.
When smoeone like shai (whom i happen to know in real life) describes himself as a left winged activist, you chose to treat him like a liar and a piece of crap. Why the hell would he lie to you about his political views? What the hell makes u assume you know better what an average israeli thinks, than someone who ACTUALLY lives here and talks to palestinians and jews on daily basis? Because u read 1000 books and reports on haaretz? Do you really think any activist in the left wing knows all the other activists?
Its a simple mathematical calculation im sure ur capable of:
Ex hadash party (i dont remember their current name) and meretz have together 7 knesset members.
Do you realize this alone shows there are thousands of people who voted for both of these parties
do you assume we all just know each other (and yes, ive also voted meretz, though for u and ur friends mary and shirin im probably “another fascits israeli”, because i support two states solution and not slow turning of israel into khalifat, or general surrendring to hamas)
People like Der Yassin and Elizabeth here (whom i admire for their honesty – somethnig that u lack)
wrote about stuff like random attacks against israelis, and general lack of proportion between the expecations of europe from us and their expectatoins from places like china.
Mary wrote more than once she denies israes right to exist, and i pointed to that and got simply ignored
Shai and i both pasted to you links about hamas’s believes regarding recognition of israel, and u disregarded all of them – because they didnt suit ur believes, – and to u it automaticly means the source is non reliable.
You chose to ignore such evidence time after time, and have the hutpza to claim that jews hate arabs and arabs dont hate jews, and whoever doesnt agree is a racist/ hasbarits/ any other term from ur dictionary.
” The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has coarsened both sides to the point that an Israeli would just as soon kill a Palestinian as look at him (and vice versa).”
You wrote this here:
Amd yet, you claim that if 700,000 palestinians will come to israel – it wont be a disaster, and that the hatretd is not mutual. You really dont know/understand that kids from both sides during at least the last 25 years grew up into 2 intifadas, suicider bombings in israeli busses, israeli countless raids and operations in gaza and west bank?
What do you think that will happen if 700,000 palestinians come to israel? we all will meet up for hugs and kisses in ben gurion?
You also wrote this
So 4 years ago u obviously agrred hamas was a terror oranization. what has changed every since? You dont like abu mazen anymore?
Lets be honest about it. the only reason they’ve softened their position (and this is something i dont believe, but at leasy this is what they say to the western media)
is because of the enormous military pressure put on them by israel. Not because they suddenly became ghandis (and urself wrote it another post here: https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2009/03/30/gorenbergs-fantasy-of-palestinian-non-violence/
israel cant expect from hamas to become ghandis)
You talk about patronizing hamas. and what the hell are YOU doing with this blog? Thinking you know whats happening and that u can change reality because u read 5 books and talked to mary and shirin?
I invited u to leave ur comfy abode in seattle. Come live in ramleh lod, or in one of the northern villages in israel, along real israelis and palestinians, and not pseudo peace activists u meet during ur conferences.
You cant even make up ur own mind whether hamas are freedom fighers, peace activists or terrorists, and writing different points of view every other months (not to mention ur responses – where u once mention their violence against fatah, and then claim they were never violent towards their own)
You in one sentence tell to shai uve read thousands of israelis opionios remind his own, and then claim he only represents himself (its a simple statstics issue – if thousands of people here from israel wrote what shai writes – it probaby means he DOES represent large sector of israeli citizens.).
You claim “european palestinians” are more democratic than people here. Are you out of ur mind? Let me bring up the burke law again. People who believe in simple democratic values dont force their women to wear burkas (and no this is NOT racism. its an issue of cultrual differences – just like u accent ur a jew, and take pride in ur tradition – palestinians in europe take in theirs – which includes wearing burke, and they are no different from our local haredim who have 0 respect for democratic values too).
To sum it up, you are probably the most dishonest person ive ever encounterd on the web (except for ur friend mary maybe, with her “16 dead friends”), and the most sad thing about u is that u are so self convinced u have strong solid believes and know better than anyone else whats true – no matter how far away u r. and no matter how much ur not ready to listen to any israel whos not uri avneri (And may i remind u, ur dear uri avneri took a very active part in the nakba).
That’s a reflection of yr own bias and inadequacy, not mine.
O Lord, pls. spare me.
She didn’t lie & you will not use that word in describing what she wrote. Mary Hughes Thompson, the media coordinator for the Gaza flotilla, wrote here that the IDF itself put out the number 16 dead & later changed it to 9. There were a number of missing according to IHH & many thought there would be more dead among that number. And are you saying that 9 dead is somehow OK while 16 dead isn’t?
Again, those are your words. I’d say suggesting that he produce his friend & ask him to verify his story directly was prudent and proper. I guess you’re insulted that I would demand such accountability. It reminds me the way the IDF & Shin Bet deal w. their critics: how dare you expect us to be accountable to anyone, esp. you!??
Oh gee I don’t know, why would anyone makes false claims about themselves when engaged in a political campaign to bolster Israel, the Occupation & the Gaza siege? No, I guess no one would ever do such a thing. YOu’re right.
Another transparent ploy we’ve seen used here by hasbarists. You & Shai speak to Palestinians “on a daily basis?” Howso? Which ones? What do you talk about? Felafel? The Ameer Makhoul case? BTW, the idea that you would accuse someone like me of knowing less about what goes on in the areas of Israeli society I cover than you is laughable in this day & age of sophisticated technology. What I know about Israeli political, military & intelligence developments would run rings around you.
So you want a medal for voting for a party which doesn’t even have the decency to speak up on behalf of a Palestinian Israeli falsely accused of espionage. And further a party so discredited most of its former voters (including you apparently) have deserted it in droves.
Again, it’s mighty white of you. But do tell me when you’re prepared to call for a return to ’67 borders, recognition of Palestine’s capital in Jerusalem, & negotiation of the Right of Return. When you tell me you’re prepared to demand those things of your gov’t right now, then you’ll have an ounce of credibility as a progressive. Till then–‘Pffft’ as yr friend Shai said to me.
Accusing me of being dishonest is a violation of my comment rules. Besides you simply can’t prove it’s true because it isn’t. Any further comments by you will be moderated.
That’s another lie. I trust Mary far more to portray her own views than you.
No, I disregarded them because they came fr. MEMRI which is a discredited pro Israel shill organization. You did not provide any credible evidence.
Where did I ever say that Arabs don’t hate Jews?? Can you show me? No you can’t. Why would I deny what is true? Of course there are Arabs who hate Jews just as there are Jews who hate Arabs. So?
Not what I said. I said that 600,000 might be eligible to return & of those less would actually do so. I said that Israel absorbed a million Russian immigrants & could absorb a smaller number of Palestinian refugees. And this is true though you howl w. protest to hear it.
I didn’t say anyone would love ea. other. You clearly wouldn’t do anything to make this work. But justice demands recognition of the Right to Return & it will be honored in some form or another whether you wish it or not.
Again misconstruing what I wrote. Hamas is as much a “terror organization” as the IDF or SHin Bet.
I have lived in Israel for two years. Thanks for the invitation but I didn’t need to receive one fr. you in order to do so.
This too is a lie. I never said Hamas was not violent. I just said that Fatah was equally violent or moreso.
You’ve in effect said you don’t believe Hamas softened it’s position because of Israeli military pressure–which clearly isn’t what you meant to say. But anyway, Hamas has not softened its position because of Israeli military pressure. Israel’s military tactics have consistently failed to cow Hamas. And there will be another war w. Hamas if there is no peace agreement. And the IDF will again fail to destroy or change Hamas. Endlessly.
There are 6 million Israeli citizens & you claim that because hundreds or thousands have written comments here reflecting his politics that this means a “large sector” of Israel agrees with him? It may be a question of “simple statistics” as you claim, but they don’t agree with you.
I never made such a claim & don’t know what you’re talking about.
It seems truly inconceivable to you in your racist, condescending values that a Muslim woman might choose to wear a burqa w/o being forced to do so. How pitiful you are. Do you think the fact that a western woman can walk down the street with her face uncovered guarantees that she is a free & respected member of her society??
What ignorance. Actually very much Palestinians who live in Europe wear burqas. Where do you claim to get these alleged facts btw??
I’m honored for you to say that about me. And that will be your last comment here as this is the last straw in terms of violating my comment rules.
My deepest sympathies go to the widow of course. It is not, however, as an earlier poster suggested, that the Israeli’s see the Palestinians as “the enemy”. I believe it is much much deeper than that. It is that they see Palestinians as “subhuman”. We see this very same pattern on our Turtle Island, where indigenous people continue to struggle just to be recognized and treated as human beings, and we experience a rather similar pattern of brutal occupation and colonization, where people are herded into unlivable ghettos and concentration camps they called reservations.
I do not think peace, reconciliation, or healing is even possible to begin in the middle east until the Israeli’s finally recognize and respect the Palestinians as being human beings, and appreciate that all human beings are related and born with equal human dignity. Until then the suffering of each is the suffering of all.
has the autopsy been completed and released yet?
and why is it that no other news agency has picked up the haaretz story on the comments made by the officers?
I believe the autopsy has been completed. I don’t believe the results have been released.
What do you take me for–the oracle at Delphi? How do I know? Do you wish to intimate that Haaretz is not a credible source?
I would venture a guess that in Israel, it’s just not that important a story, uncle joe. It’s just another dead Arab, right?
now that you mention it, i have many problems with haaretz
and lets be honest, if this report was credible, dont you think that at least al jazeerah would have picked it up?
It’s you who aren’t credible. If you don’t believe Haaretz then you’re a fool. But that’s not terribly surprising.
Shavua Tov everyone.
I’ll work my way from the bottom up and since your favorite phrase seems to be “spare me”, Richard Silverstein, I will start with you.
I am particularly impressed by your rule that you are off limits to be called “dishonest”. You seem to have no problem calling out other people who in this “day and age of sophisticated technology” post on this board. That little term and condition of yours kind of flies in the face of the liberal notion of freedom of speech that we enjoy so much as free citizens of the world. I would in fact go so far as to nominate you as the Secretary of Information for Hamas. While we are on the subject of sophisticated technology in this day and age….do you agree or disagree that that Israel is a hotbed for the innovation and development of this very “sophisticated technology” that enables you to bring yourself so up to date on Israeli military & intelligence developments? And, since we are on the subject, you earlier called me out about technology that Israel has that has brought prosperity to the region. Should we examine dessert agriculture and drip irrigation technology? How about ocean water desalination? How about advancements in aerospace? Want to talk about Sustainable food packaging? What about the number of Israeli Noble Prize winners? Nine…more than Egypt and Iran combined…throw in old Yassir and Israel still has more. By the way, no other Arab countries really make the list in as much as 1. See for yourself and choke on your words. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
Then you harp on about the law of return and how Israel should have no problem absorbing less than 600,000 palestinians returning to their “homes”. After all they absorbed 1 million Russians. Big difference sir between the Russian Jews who were fleeing religious persecution, coming to Israel and working productively in the development of the State and the so called Palestinians whose basis for return is to dismantle Israel as the homeland of the Jews. Why is it that a two state solution where they have the right of return to the new Democratic State of Palestine is so unacceptable? Why is it that every trace of jewish life needs to be removed from these areas in order for a state to exist? Why can Jews not live in the Democratic State of Palestine like Arabs live in the Democratic State of Israel? Case in point…Gush Katif…Do you agree or disagree that the Gush Katif was home of some of the most advanced agricultural installations in the Gaza strip? They were left in tact when those people were evacuated. What do they look like now?
The last thing I have for you is that you are correct. Hamas is not a terrorist organization. They were duly elected in a fair and democratic election process overseen by the west. And, like in the west, they simply rounded up their political opponents and smashed their knee caps, threatened their families and even executed a few. Now they patrol the streets with their goon squads and burn down UN sponsored day camps for kids, all normal behavior for democratically elected officials.
I still love how you censor anyone who calls you “dishonest”. Really? I can see personal threats and attacks against you and other posters or obscene language as valid reasons but calling you dishonest….Wow. I really enjoy that in a post to Shai on June 30, @12:36 am you call HIM disingenuous. I also like how you, in previous post (June 29 @ 11:08) say that the comenter (Me, in this case, claimed that “Israel worked tirelessly to better the live of those in the region”, where in fact you chose to omit the real point I was making in which they worked tirelessly….but got urinated on in return. A current case in point is Israel’s assistance being refused by the Iranians in recovering and treating CIVILIAN casualties of a massive earthquake. Ooh another great contributable skill to the region brought. I wonder how they acquired that skill. There is a word for you…it is not “dishonest”….its Judenrat!
Richard you can sign off here because I want to give the option to be “spared”.
@Mary…We have not seen a suicide bomber recently because Israel built a wall. A crap thing to do but highly effective at stopping the bombers from traversing the short distance from Kalkilya to the Sharon area. The latest tact that has been seen is run away bulldozers. And by the way, last time I checked Israel had withdrawn all military and civilian life from Gaza for naught. Israel is home to the Jews always has been always will be .
@Andrew…Do you really want to bring up the Holocaust? I try to avoid that subject when I discuss this issue with morons like yourself, since I believe Israel exists in spite of the Holocaust not because of it. However, since YOU bring it up why don’t you go look up the UN definition of genocide. Why don’t you go and research the simple amount of Jews that were systematically put to death on a daily basis at Treblinka. I know thousands of people have lost their lives in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict but nowhere near Holocaust numbers and nothing close to what can be termed genocidal. So Holocaust blather blather blather to you.
@Shirin…The sliver of desert and swamp I refer to is the 1947 UN Partition plan. If you have even the slightest concept of the geography of Israel you will know that this is exactly what Israel was. And why don’t you go explain to those Lebanese why their country needs to be in a state of war with Israel. Why don’t you go and explain to the Palestinians that their leadership has squandered billions of $$$ in foreign aid in personal swiss bank accounts and procurement of weapons. I posed this question before and I ask you now directly…What would you do with $500 million dollars and 35 km of prime Mediterranean beachfront property? Silverstein dodged that one…I expect you to as well.
@Faith….Despite the rants of Richard Silverstein who disguises his intentions as Tikkun Olam, I truly am sincere about my condolences and as I said apologetic to using the forum about a man’s death to discuss the greater political issue.
@Elisabeth….The article from the Guardian, of all places, is as uneducated a piece of writing as I have read and that includes our host, the user of sophisticated modern day technology. This guy is influenced by the mainstream media who always likes to tell the story of the underdog. I cannot find a guy credible, who thinks that Netanyahu is a con-man yet makes no mention of how he feels about Arafat, Haninya or some of the other stately leaders of the Palastinians. His lack of comment on that “parallel side” leads me to believe that these proven criminals are stand up members of society. So thanks for the article but it falls way short of the “reason” people focus on Israel.
I don’t need any lectures fr. you about free speech. This blog isn’t Constitution Hall or the town square. It’s a blog & as such subject to rules I’ve foudn expedient after the publication of 30,000 comments here. You follow the rules or you’re up & out. Your choice.
Now, that’s a comment rule violation that gets you banned. You were warned. You get one warning & the next serious violation you’re gone. Nice to know ya.
You’ll have to tell me what technology I’m using that is Israeli in my research. And besides, this bit of hasbara has nothing to do w. anything. Do you think Israel develops web technology specifically to further democracy around the world?? Hardly. In fact, Israel’s contributions are in the line of security & defense related intrusive technology w military/counter-terror applications. That counts me out since I don’t dabble in any of that.
So you’re claiming that Israel developed this out of the goodness of its heart & shared it w. it neighbors in the spirit of brotherly love? And can you show me that any of Israel’s neighbors actually use this technology?
I see. So Israel’s drone technology which hunts down & kills Palestinian militants (give or take a few dozen civilians killed in ancillary action) benefits Israel’s neighbors? Or those missiles Israel develops? That benefits them?
I have no idea what this means & certainly doubt any of Israel’s neighbors is benefiting fr. whatever it is.
This little bit of pro Israel boosterism is rapidly going dull beyond belief. I don’t give a fig how many Israeli Nobel laureates there are. How have any of them benefited any of Israel’s neighbors, which was yr original claim?
And Palestinians haven’t suffered persecution at the hands of Israel that would justify their return? And you think the returning Palestinians wouldn’t work productively within Israel on their return? You simply don’t understand immigrants & the enormous benefits they bestow on their chosen countries.
Because they weren’t expelled from Bethlehem, Ramallah or Nablus, but from Jaffa, Jerusalem & places within Israel.
Do you have to be such a dolt? They’re returning to reclaim the homes they were torn fr. by the then new State of Israel. They will become as good citizens of their new home as the current Israeli Palestinians.
First, there is not such state because Israel refuses to negotiate for its creation. Second, Jews DO live in Palestine & have always lived there. Not in great numbers, but they do. And Palestinian leaders have guaranteed the right of Jews to continue doing so after Israel finally DOES recognize such a state.
And you’re claiming that because Gazans destroyed the greenhouses of the Jewish settlements in hatred of what they represented to them, that this means Palestinians aren’t entitled to a state of their own??? If foolishness & depravity were the judge of whether a people is entitled to a state of their own, Israelis would never have earned one in 1948.
You’re simply fahrdreyt in kup & don’t know what you’re talking about. The actual election was ruled free & fair by all the expert observers who monitored it. But after the election, when Fatah engineeered a coup against Hamas & the latter responded by violently taking control in Gaza & suppressing Fatah’s supporters there (as Fatah was doing just as ruthlessly in the W. Bank) then there was violence. But this was not part of an electoral process. In fact, just the opposite. It was Fatah w. the encouragement & connivance of the Bush folks, who tried to do an end run around a free & fair election.
And you’re claiming that Hamas is doing this? With what proof? Proof? Who needs proof when you have certainty? Even certainty derived fr. ignorance, hate & racism. But certainty nonetheless.
Yes, I do. Disingenuous & dishonest mean diff. things. Do you need a vocabulary lesson. I am not dishonest & will not let anyone here accuse me of being so. You don’t like the rules, no one asked you to spend time here. But them’s the rules.
Now, YOU are being disingenous. You know as well as I that if there was an earthquake in Israel & Iran offered assistance that Bibi would spit on the offer. So don’t go around in high moral dudgeon about Iran’s refusal of such help. Besides, Israel’s offers of help in such situations are entirely politically, rather than humanistically motivated.
You lost that option long ago as you lost the option to continue contributing to this blog’s comment threads.
More crap. Israel’s Wall is not complete & hundreds of thousands of Palestinians cross it seeking work & other opportunities. Any suicide bomber who wished could cross it at will there there is no wall.
And the Arabs, and Druze & Bedouin & Christians who you seem conveniently to forget.
You really wanted to get banned didn’t you.
Maybe because Israel holds hundreds of Lebanese prisoners in its jails & also Lebanese-Syrian territory which it refuses to relinquish.
And you know this because you read it in Yisrael HaYom or Maariv? Besides, are you claiming that Israeli politicians are any more honest? Ehud Olmert anyone??
You truly are a creepy insincere fraud. Faith will not be taken in by yr sincere thoughtful pose.
What a waste of time, Giora. You really outdid yourself. I skimmed your comment and will only say that the reason there are no suicide bombers is because Hamas has stopped employing them, as well as shooting rockets. And FYI, even the Shin Bet says that the reason there are no terror attacks in Israel is not because of that stupid wall, but due to better security.
Thank you all. Good to see Jews who actually think about the situation not as a zionist or israeli, but as a human. What would Great Prophet Moses do if he were leader of Palestine/Israel. Now its time for Zion to let my people go! I was just surfing for Abdul Qader Jilani’s written works and stumbled here. What a shameless act of brutal murder, followed by an even more shameless act of political dirt wash. May Lord Allmighty guide us through this test and have mercy on us all.