IDF Executed Mavi Marmara Victims
In my earlier posts about the killings aboard the Mavi Marmara, I used terms like “kill shot” and “execution-style” to describe these events. I based my judgment on the narratives told by eyewitnesses and the Turkish autopsy reports. Some readers were taken aback and accused me of overstatement, exaggeration and worse. But this video vividly confirms my strong suspicions.
It shows IDF commandos executing a passenger on the Mavi Marmara with one and possibly two point blank shots from above into the victim who lies on the boat deck. In truth, one cannot distinguish the face of the victim since it is blocked by a boat railing. But from the muzzle flashes and weapon recoils and the downward direction in which the shooter looks at his victim, it is clear this is an execution just as I described earlier.
The video caption claims this is the murder of 19 year-old Turkish-American high school student Furkan Dogan. While it is possible there is earlier footage not shown in this video that displayed the victim’s face and enabled one to identify him, I won’t vouch for Dogan as being the specific victim. But what is incontrovertible is that this is A Mavi Marmara passenger being murdered.
This changes everything. Here for the first time is evidence that the IDF was not just engaged in a defensive operation, but that it had determined to murder passengers. Gone are the hasbara rationales which defended Israel and blamed the victims for their own deaths.
I am ashamed of Israel. I am ashamed of my president’s response to Israel.
We must get all those governments like our own who were trying to finesse this crisis, trying to put the genie back in the bottle, to stop and take stock. Sending fixers like Dan Shapiro to Israel to hondle about the the least damaging way to repair this mess simply won’t work. Shapiro is trying to figure out Israel can give up the least and gain the most. He and his boss, the president, want to figure out how Israel can ease the humanitarian crisis with a nip and a tuck–allow in more foods for example–while getting the UN to dismiss its international investigation.
The Telegraph published a similar report claiming the new Tory-led government had a deal with Israel on similar terms. The report missed a few things though. Nowhere did it say what Turkey thought about any of this. And that country, after all, is the injured party since 9 (more likely 15) of its citizens were murdered by the IDF. Do the U.S., Britain and Israel think they can work their way out of this mess without Turkey’s acquiescence?
Does Israel truly believe that its sham proposals for a two part domestic investigation will pass muster? It proposes a military panel under the leadership of an ex-general who will examine the failure without placing blame on any specific individuals. Then Netanyahu proposes a panel composed of Israeli judges to be joined by up to two foreign “observers.” This commission will not be permitted to question the actual commando killers. Which in effect renders the proceedings toothless before they even begin.
If I were Prime Minister Erdogan I’d do pretty much what he’s done so far. Put out my demands for a deal and then let everyone else scheme and manipulate in order to avoid my terms. Once they’ve exhausted themselves and come up empty, perhaps they’ll realize there is only one way to resolve the matter. Israel must apologize, pay reparations to victim’s families and all the passengers, and end the siege.
There is a simmering rage within Turkey about the way its citizens were brutalized. A Turkish-American journalist told me a poll said 60% believe their government has not done enough to express its outrage. So Israelis may express their shock at Erdogan’s obstreperousness. But they should know that behind Erdogan are 80 million very angry Turks. Is Israel prepared to face them down? And I don’t mean this only in a diplomatic sense. I mean this in a very real, tangible sense. Until now, Turks cared little for Palestine in the way that more devout Muslim nations do. Their form of Islam is fairly tolerant and laid back. That’s why they could forge an alliance with Israel for so many years. But now I can imagine Turkish shahids waging jihad on Israel. This would be an unprecedented development both for Israel and Turkey.
Today, Barack Obama showed that he’s still spinning his wheels. He had Fatah’s rump West Bank president, Mahmoud Abbas to the White House for a photo-op and offered $400 million for Gaza. He offered this money to a man who has absolutely no sway in Gaza. A man who hates the government that rules Gaza and who is hated in return. Hell, Obama hates Hamas too. So what kind of charade were the two of them playing earlier today? How will this money ever get to its destination if no one will talk to the only party who can spend it?
It borders on sheer idiocy. And I say this knowing that Obama is neither an idiot not badly-intentioned. All one can say about the president’s policy is that with George Bush you knew you were getting someone who didn’t give a whit for the Palestinians and who wouldn’t lift a finger for them. With Obama, you get the illusion of a leader who cares, but who doesn’t. Or at least doesn’t care enough to do anything substantive. There are times when ineffectual leaders with good intentions can do even more damage than those like Bush who never had any good intentions to begin with.
The question is how long will Obama continue this masquerade. How long before he faces the music and comes to the realization there is only one way to do the right thing. The longer he delays the more chance there is for a deterioration in the status quo. And I’m not talking about incremental deterioration. I’m talking about catastrophic deterioration, about a situation in which Israel attacks its neighbors or is attacked in return.
Is Israel prepared for the next Gaza flotilla to be escorted by Turkish warships to its destination? Is it prepared for Turkey not just as an enemy but possibly a military enemy as well?
Today, brings distressing news of a Rasmussen survey finding that 49% of Americans blame the victims for their death on the Mavi Marmara. But when I read such a poll I always examine the questions, since subtleties of wording can lead to tipping the respondents in a certain direction. Indeed, the question asked in this poll which brought that result betrayed a “tell” as they say in poker:
Who is primarily to blame for the deadly outcome of the raid on the aid-carrying ships – Israel or the pro-Palestinian activists on the ships?
While I agree that in actuality those on the ship were “pro-Palestinian activists,” this wording helped lead to an unreliable poll result. Those three words, when suggested to the average American conjure up an unflattering image just as the phrase “pro-Israeli activist” would in a similar context (though the revulsion would be less pronounced). It would’ve been much better had the pollsters come up with a less leading, less judgmental, less emotional phrase to describe those on the Mavi Marmara. Why not just “passengers?” Or “humanitarians” or “peace activists?” Or “anti-blockade activists?”
While I dispute the wording of the question, there is no doubt that Americans have bought the hasbara campaign about this tragedy. They do not know what really happened. That’s why it’s important that video like this be seen as widely as possible. For a time, hasbara may prevail. But in the longer term the real facts and enormity of this tragedy will sink in.
In the interests of such education, I’m planning a conference here in Seattle at St. Mark’s Cathedral on Friday, June 25th on the Gaza crisis. Evergreen College Prof. Steve Niva will speak about the failure of U.S. policy in this crisis. I will speak about the current political currents inside Israel and the assault on democracy and human rights that has accompanied external attacks like the one on the Gaza flotilla. Dave Schermerhorn will speak about his experience as a Mavi Marmara survivor. We will also present a Palestinian speaker who will address the humanitarian crisis inside Gaza. So far, the conference is co-sponsored by SABEEL of the Puget Sound and the Mideast Focus Ministry. New co-sponsors will be added including Jewish and Muslim organizations.
In order to bring one speaker to Seattle, we need to raise funds for her airfare and accommodations. If you’re so moved, please click the Paypal button in my sidebar or the Donate link also in the sidebar. Your donation will defray these costs. Anything exceeding them will go to Gaza humanitarian relief.
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100 thoughts on “IDF Executed Mavi Marmara Victims – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
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Hi Richard, thank you. Just donated some money. Keep the good work going!
I’m in Australia, and the Jewish community (I’m Jewish) here is very firmly toeing the hasbara line over this incident. I’d like to post that clip, as a counter to all the heinous, massaged clips originating from the IDF constantly doing the facebook rounds. But firts, I need to know where you got it from, and how you know that it is indeed a passenger on the boat in question – I’ve seen the ridiculous IDF video purporting to be one of the activists on the MM, talking about being a shahid; an utterly obvious mock-up. I would hate to fall into the same trap. I don’t want to be associated with propaganda. If you need to reply privately, my email is fine.
Thanks, and keep up the good work.
It has been argued that these are the Paint-ball rifles, and that all hand-guns are what caused the death’s. I have no idea if this is true,but if so then this video does not show what it purports to show.
Richard, do you know where the video comes from? Why has it come to light only now when public opinion has had time to accept the Hasbara explanation?
It is awful to watch, but it still needs a credible source.
There is no weapons recoil, the soldier is holding that M-16 with one hand. You can’t fire an M-16 with one hand and not rip off your wrist. As far as I can see, there’s not even a clip in the gun.
Time will speak for itself, but I think anybody familiar with guns can tell this video footage does not show weapons being fired.
I don’t know how, from a video, one can tell if there is a clip in the gun, but if there isn’t, why is he aiming it? And prior to that, what was he kicking the living daylights out of?
I just watched it again, and the soldier is holding the gun in both hands. And it appears that he is firing it. However, I am sure that with more exposure of this video there will be a more accurate analysis. The fact is that were it not for the success of one passenger, we would probably never see this.
Propably it was a plastic-toy-M-16 and a big joke?
According to the Turks all bullet wounds were 9mm. Does an M16 use 9mm shells?
Don’t forget, 6 – 9 people are missing…and there are reports, the idf threw some into the sea.
Could be that is where the m-16 slugs are…in a body floating in the sea.
There was indeed at least one weapon recoil. I loaded the clip into a movie program, enhanced contrast and saturation to bring out the details, and watched frame by frame.
The clip clearly shows the commando feeding what I’d assume was a new ammunition clip into his rifle, then he aims the rifle and there’s an unmistakable recoil. This is towards the very end of the clip.
That might be a lot of things, but it is no M16. It COULD be some form of 9mm carbine, I suppose, or one of the “paintball-weapons” talked about.
Though firing an M16-type rifle one-handed will not “rip off your hand” A short rifle like that will produce a very distinct muzzle-flash, unless it is fitted with a large supressor, which it isn’t. If it’s a 9mm… then maybe. Having looked over and over, I can’t see a clear muzzle-flash or evidence of recoil that couldn’t be explained otherwise. The soldier’s weapons are also fitted with tactical lights, making it even harder to see.
All this aside, there is still evidence of excessive force in the form of dead bodies of activists killed by headshots.
It would be very interesting to see this footage unedited. Especially since there seems to be more of it from another angle, as seen around 1:40 into this segment: http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-06-02/gaza-flotilla-attack-israel.html (and according to the date on that page, these images have been available since June 2nd).
Who says it was an M16 ?
The Turks did NOT say that “all” the victims were killed by 9mm bullets.
Would be good to get confirmation on the .9 mm issue. I believe the reporting to date has indicated .9 mm weapon used in the killing.
As for the rest, I am not sure that this video tells me much of anything. Initially I thought that the shadows of the flags waving in the dark was the head of the victim. I can see a soldier kicking but I don’t see a muzzle flash and I don’t know if the angle of the weapon is pointed towards a victim.
So important to be sure that you are 100 percent accurate before you make a statement of this kind.
Sure, you’re welcome. I tend to think this video is real, especially given that it’s coming from Richard, who has a track record of being extremely careful.
Meanwhile, footage smuggled out by independent filmmaker Iara Lee, who was on the Mavi Marmara, was released today at 4PM EST at the United Nations.
Beyond words… SHAMEFUL…
They were sent there to KILL civilians!
SHAME ON ISRAEL..
@ Kung Fu Jew.
I’ve seen this sequence over and over again. The IDF soldier definitely holds the gun with TWO hands. He’s firing it once and reloading it, aiming once again – and we’re cut off.
You might be familier with guns – I don’t doubt for a minute !! – but you need glasses. I just changed mine, and ‘I can see clearly now’: this is murder in cold blood.
Its not about holding the gun with two hands.
Its about the gun not moving at all after shooting.
Its not possible with an m16. The soilder needs to be a superman to avoid gun hitting him in his jaw.
with that said, the soilders kicking someone on the floor is a bad enough thing, and i hope theyll get punished for that.
This weapon was obviously not an M16. Who here claims it was an M16 ? And, whatever the weapon was, in the referenced footage there is a visible weapon recoil.
What are these people “on about” regarding an M16. I never claimed the weapon was one. I have a feeling that there may be other sites which have claimed this & somehow it’s been programmed into the hasbara talking pts that you have to deny the weapon is an M16. People, no one here has ever claimed this weapon is an M16.
it is paint gun. they do hit someone, but they do not hit him
just sad to see how you eat&drink the IHH propaganda without serious checks first.
“Tikun Olam”… pfff…. right
meant to say they do shoot someone, but not kill – it is paint gun, my english is not perfect – but i know the difference between guns
the IHH terrorists were killed from personal pistols , not m-16 … the israeli navy commando uses Kalashnikov , not these paint ball
The video comes from a Marmara passenger who was able to smuggle it off the boat, shall we say, on her person. One of my friends obtained it from http://www.culturesofresistance.org, who will be screening it for the press today at the United Nations Dag Hammarskjöld library, entrance on 46th street- NYC.
Thanks for posting the video, Richard. We were able to get a few others to post it online too, and hopefully after the screening today it will get wide exposure.
You can see the video as Iara Lee, the maker of it, is interviewed today on Amy Goodman’s http://www.democracynow.com. Mary is right.
This may help a bit:
“I am ashamed of Israel. I am ashamed of my president’s response to Israel.”
Richard, what took you so long? Is this the first outrage Israel has committed? Do you think Obama didn’t know?
It will go on, and on, and on, and on. They (USA and Israel) have no shame. I’m only waiting for the other shoe to drop – on Iran!
I’ve been rereading Edward Said; “The Pen and the Sword, Conversations”, by David Barsamian. He died in 2003, but he predicted it would come to this.
If this is the case, you need to formally come out and abandon your support for israel under any circumstances. Otherwise you are no better than the well-intentioned Obama. If you want to have impact, fly to Turkey, announce that you will lead the next flotilla, which should be filled with known human rights activists, defendend by the Turkish army AND the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. Also, declare that the israeli right of return for Jews does not extend to you, as did Stephen Rose and other brave academics. Also, a voice of support for Helen Thomas would be nice too
Richard, if you should decide to follow the suggestion of American BDS, and lead the next flotilla, count on me to join you. For that, I’ll make a donation. Any other takers among this crowd?
You’re not helping your credibility by calling for “a voice of support for Helen Thomas”. I believe that the outrage over her comments is overstated & hypocrtical, especially given that Dick Armey & Mike Huckabee have similar comments about transferring Palestinians without any condemnation. That being said, do you really think it’s OK to call for Israeli Jews to go back to Germany & Poland?
That’s way off topic, Peter H. Helen Thomas has already gotten enough undue publicity. This is a crucially important video and what one journalist has to say about Israel is utterly irrelevant.
Fair enough, Mary. In my defense, I was responding to American BDS’ comment, but you’re right we shouldn’t lose focus on what’s really important.
Most of the time it’s the pro-Israel people who deliberately change the subject. I apologize, but I’m just upset that so much attention is being paid to Helen Thomas’ remarks (and that the Zionists took advantage of them to take the focus off themselves). There are nine murders, and six people are still missing; this is an outrage which needs to be addressed and needs to be given top priority.
Helen Thomas soon realized her words would be misconstrued, and she apologized. What she said is that illegal settlers living on stolen Palestinian land should go back to wherever they came from. I absolutely agree with her. I have seen no evidence she used the word “Jew” in her comment.
Regarding Helen Thomas, Peter, it’s not clear when she said Israel out of Palestine, whether she was referring to the illegal occupation of 43 years. I believe she was, when she said go back to Germany, Poland and the U.S. which she would be totally justified to condemn, if not the Nakba, which created the refugee problem. Watch this video from last night’s Colbert Report, watch to the very end:
This guy has to be a troll or a lunatic. I’ll abandon Israel when you get yr head examined by a licensed psychiatrist. Helen Thomas’ remarks were those of an 89 yr old woman bordering on senility. I don’t take them any more seriously than I take yrs.
I’ve read some great articles written by you, but this for me will go down as the best so far.
What can I say? I’m so impressed by what you wrote. I believe it came straight out of your conscience and your heart. I’m so impressed with your efforts and your words translated into action.
Israel is definitely wheeling and dealing to try and squirm and finnagle its way out of a serious international investigation. Why? We all know why.
Israel confiscated cell phones, computers and videotape. What kind of evidence is Israel obstructing? Are there clearer versions of this incident? Is there damning videotape of other incidents? Are there victims we know nothing about?
Turkey needs to take this to the International Criminal Court. No one should be allowed to make a deal with Israel over this. I wonder if legally something can be done to stop this potential obstruction and travesty of justice?
How can the world just sit on the sidelines and watch Israel deal one crime against humanity (collective punishment of civilians) to protect itself from another crime, the flotilla massacre?
P.S. You should have been a lawyer.
oops! “finagle” – forgot the spell-check
Thanks so much. You should’ve read the first version of this post which disappeared when my database crashed. I had to reconstitute it fr. memory & it lost a lot of the fire & passion of the original. But I’m glad you still saw some of that in the published version.
I agree completely with your opinion, regarding this act of IDF-piracy. But I cannot see, wether a general murder, nor the specific murder of the NY-Boy in this film. I’ts just dark!
It’s no proof for nothing. It could – for example – show a IDF pirat shooting from an Upper Deck down to a lower deck?
According to many experts who have looked at the weapon used it seems high improbable that it was an M16 being used here. From the way the shooting is done, it would most likely be one of the Paintball pellet guns which were used. Alternatively this could easily be directed at rioters on the lower deck.
Unfortunately this kind of unravels the thesis and basis for this article
Thanks to the hasbara crowd sent en masse to “correct the record.” Unfortunately, all of you clamoring in unison that it’s a paint ball gun doesn’t make it so. Where did you guys get yr marching orders today?
By the way, is it really clear how many people died in this ambush? Numbers of murdered persons goes from 9 to 15 and even more? Did the organisers of this Gaza-Aid-Fleet have exact numbers of people on board? How many alive and freed? How many still in hospitals or jails in Israel? How many death corpses “delivered” to the Turks? Are there persons without knowledge about their actual location, status, destiny?
Did persons fall, or had been thrown, overboard?
Here in Germany, mainly the “Official-Israeli-Story” has been published in the media…
Wow! Please check out the link for some excellent reporting and new video footage. Pay particular attention to minutes 39 to approx 41 and 45 to 47.
From the interview and all the footage apparently confiscated, it’s clear that Israel is feeding the world a pack of lies.
I see no one recognizes a paintball gun when they see one… the soldiers do seem to be kicking someone, however, the gun, as you can see pretty well, is a paintball gun, and not a firearm. Also, you don’t see a muzzle flash as one would expect from a firearm.
Please stop spreading lies.
[comment deleted for violation of comment rules]
So, the President of the United States authorized the Summary Execution of a US Citizen in International Waters? His regime is said to have authorized the attack in advance, the M.M. victims seem to have been executed, this reasonably seems to be the case and that’s extremely frightening.
Change is right…. what next, Death Squads in the streets of Amerika?
That certainly doesn’t look like an M-16 (I had one for over a year), there are no flashes, and no recoil.
The soldier is definitely kicking the guy on the ground, though.
I’m glad more and more information is coming out. Whatever the whole truth is – I hope it is revealed.
What type of assault weapon was used is irrelevant. The fact is that an American teen received a bullet to the chest and four in the head at close range and he’s dead.
The fact is that there were other victims shot in the head.
These are the damning facts.
the only thing you know which is based on information rather than guessing and wishful thinking maybe, is that he was shot in the head, the range is not known.
What is known that these professional commandos, took only highly accurate very selective shots, this is how they are trained, and what they know best.
The fact that someone was shot in the head, does not mean that he was executed, rather that he was shot accurately, and for the topic here, this is very different.
All 50 Turkish rioters that confronted the soldiers were dressed with with bullet proof vests, some with highly professional ceramic ones. So soldiers were aiming to either lower body parts, as seen in most if not all injuries, or to the head, as in the case of the victims.
As I said before – highly accurate very selective shots.
Proof? I saw the passengers. They had on life vests. Where do you get bulletproof vests? I have a comment rule that demands you provide proof rather than make unsupported claims. Do so.
You’re kidding right? At first I thought this was an Onion style parody article on the Mavi Marmara take-down. The reason there is no muzzle flash and no ammunition clip on the rifle, and he was able to whip it around like a stick is because it’s a FREAKING PAINTBALL GUN!! You can even see him operating the lever that provides air compression to shoot the paintballs. Granted paintballs hurt, and the IDF commandos had side-arms which this soldier did not deploy, but no one was “murdered” in this video.
forgot to write that the 98CUSTOM built by TIPPMANN” is nothing but a piantball rifle.
It can be dangerous, as some parents can testify, still it is not an execution weapon, and can only hurt if shot at soft tissues.
This video is an out-take from the original live-streamed video, which I saw, direct from the Mavi Marmara as the Israelis attacked, shown on Memorial Day, Monday 31 May 2010.
For obvious reasons, the full video is no longer available, but shorter segments of it are available on Youtube, as is this Malaysian (with Hebrew subtitles!) out-take:
The sound on this video has obviously been edited or distorted, and perhaps some video has been cut. (The initial kicking is missing)
The sequence starts at: 0.30 A second sequence starts at 0.52, showing the same two Israeli commandos giving their victim a final beating, and then moving off.
It is this second sequence that convinces me that the video is genuine.
I have seen other videos that are more complete (and more confused) but I can’t retrieve them now. Perhaps someone else can find the original.
Interesting that this video includes the same footage, but leaving out the portion showing the actual shooting. I am wondering why it shows up here but is also claimed to be original footage smuggled off the boat. It could be possible that it was shot by the same cameraman and copied. The clip remains quite damning and requires clarification, which is all the more reason why an independent and impartial inquiry needs to be made. I would NOT trust the Israelis to do any such thing.
a military expert from britain was on the bbc and identified those guns as paint ball guns
there is nothing new here
just as there is nothing new in the vid that democracy now showed
I have a weapons expert who says they’re not paintball guns but who also posits an alternative about what may be happening in the video. Plus I have an expanded version of this video. You’ll read more about this in tonight’s post (not published yet).
ill be waiting
if he says anything but a paint ball gun, i hope he provides pics of the weapon
btw, i cant find any low def vids in zip form
do you have any links?
Mary: It starts with the shooting (at 0.30), then the re-loading of the clip, with a final shot to make sure. But the early part (the kicking) is not there.
I have no idea what kind of gun was used, but will endeavour to find out.
Possibly, Flotilla 13 uses its ‘own’ guns, with 9mm bullets and little recoil.
What is “flotilla 13”?
Shayetet 13 (Hebrew: שייטת 13, lit. Flotilla 13) is an elite Israel Defence Forces naval Special forces unit.
the obvious reasons being…..? what exactly? why is the original no longer accessible? I’m not sure that I would trust anything but the original. and how did you come to be seeing it?
I would like some sort of transparency in this process.
the gun is a paint gun for riots
I surely hope you are better in other fields.
Your ability to analyze video is rather poor.
The commandos seen in the clip are holding American made paintball rifles, known as “98custom” manufactured by TIPPMANN.
98Custom, can be dangerous, as some parents can testify.
To declare as your title and article do, that someone was executed by such a weapon, is either a bad joke, or vile propaganda.
Pick which ever suits you.
There WAS a 9mm carbine, made by Colt, on an M16 frame and action. This was an attempt to match a modular weapon system made by Steyr, which allowed a 9mm sub machine gun to have parts in common with a 5.56mm assault rifle. Neither invention caused the SAS or the Metropolitan Police to trade in their H&K MP5s.
There are also six bodies missing, presumably because they bear wounds that don’t match the official story. A gun of any calibre being fired into the face of someone lying down from a range of a few feet, would produce precisely the sort of body the IDF wouldn’t want a Turkish pathologist to see.
However, the absence of much flash and thin sticklike nature of the object the soldier is fiddling with, vis a vis the gun, does rather remind Medawar of the Colt-Armalite 9mm carbine. It does at least have the virtue of being a trifle more directional than the Israeli-made Uzi machine pistol. It’s the sort of thing a semi-literate gun enthusiast buys at a Las Vegas gun fair and it’s a surprise to see one in “professional” military hands.
A magazine change (it would hold thirty-odd shots) might imply a change in ammunition type rather than an empty magazine in these circumstances. The Turks did find what appeared to be a Glaser safety slug in the head of one of the bodies.
Does the IDF allow soldiers to take privately-owned, non-standard weapons on high-profile missions, as well as non-standard ammunition, illegal for most military purposes?
Or does the IDF equip its men from the aforementioned Las Vegas gun fairs?
Medawar’s analysis might actually be that a military numbskull was taking his chance to fire different types of bullet at a disabled (or deceased) victim in order to see what his really cool Glaser slugs etc, did at point blank range.
The IDF doesn’t just need more enlightened and less arrogant leaders: it needs a more disciplined and professional rank and file, too.
Glaser safety slugs are common SWAT stuff for indoor firefight, no ricochets bouncing around. No wonder IDF were using those when boarding a ship.
new video came out. Just google EXCLUSIVE VIDEO – Smuggled footage out from #Flotilla
I never cease to be amazed that pro-Zionists will try to deflect the truth in any way they can, but when proof of Israeli lying surfaces, it just gets brushed aside as trivial rather than part of a predictable pattern.
It seems that “the most moral army in the world” must resort to lies, fabrications, and frame-ups, as opposed to letting truth and transparency reveal what really happened.
It’s nothing new. A perusal of the political history of Israel reveals quite a lot of similar shenanigans. This has gone beyond the pale, however.
You write, “I say this knowing that Obama is neither an idiot not badly-intentioned. ” I suggest this indicates a serious lack of capacity to know what are a person’s actual intentions. Every person has a real context for each activity: which is what goal he pursues, what make actions he takes, and on what major aspects he focuses. Every person also has a preferred context for each activity he does, which can be miles apart from his real context. Every person manifests his real context, for every situation, by how he spontaneously responds.
Therefore, Obama has clearly demonstrated his overriding real context for him as a person is to be willing to tell any lie he has to to become what he wants. Ever since Nixon, we have been getting presidents whose real contexts are more and more constant deceit and almost total self-aggrandizement. Each subsequent one more deceitful and self-oriented than the previous one.
I don’t know know why liberals continue to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of people claiming to be liberal; especially when many such people’s feet rarely if ever do a genuinely liberal act.
Obama will continue to lead you down that same primrose path Bill Clinton did. Obama lacks a single cell of backbone. Nothing in Israel will change because of him. The Palestinians are the key to success, and as soon as they form a unified force, it will be forthcoming.
RE: “…what is incontrovertible is that this is A Mavi Marmara passenger being murdered…” – R. Silverstein
MY COMMENT: Incontrovertible? I think not. How dare you “rush to judgement”! Perhaps the passenger (unlawful enemy combatant) was merely being “eliminated”, or “put down”, or “interrogated using special, enhanced procedures”, or “blessed with eternal nocturne”, or “permanently subdued”, or “restrained with prejudice”, or…I assure you I could go on, and on, and on…(ad nauseam), but I’ll spare you that (unlike a certain law professor).
P.S. “Well, what would you do if a hoard of Muslims were trying to lynch you? Tell me that! You have no right to criticize these poor, frightened commandos unless you yourself have been the victim of an attempted lynching by a pack of bloodthirsty Muslims!” Capiche?
RE: “blessed with eternal nocturne” – me (above)
DEBATABLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN: “blessed with everlasting nocturnal bliss”
Dinah Washington & Max Richter, This bitter earth – On the nature of daylight (06:13) ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXHGoaEtmFM
A “hoard” of Muslims?
“poor, frightened commandos”
Are you referring to koalas or the IDF?
1. as noted above, this footage does not look much like an m-16 shooting. first of all, it does not look much like an M-16. secondly, I can’t see a flash from the shot itself, nor is there a discharge of a bullet casing. also, an m-16 is heavy, and shooting it requires steadily holding with both hands, otherwise you will probably shoot your foot off. by the way, not only the face of the victim is hidden, but the entire victim is no where to be seen. all i really see in this video that you present as solid evidence is two soldiers kicking an unseen object, and one soldier handling a weapon in an odd manner.
2. even if this footage does portray the execution of a passenger, this does not that the “IDF executed mavi marmara victims”. it means, as the post itself states, that A soldier shot A passenger. that is all this video can prove. can it prove that all passengers were executed? that is quite a leap.
3. you can be ashamed if you like. but this video does not back up your claims as well as you would like it to.
1. Who says it was an M16 ? It’s quite obviously a lighter, specialized weapon.
2. A frame-by-frame analysis shows, towards the end of this footage, one of the commandos apparently reloading his weapon, pointing it, then an obvious rifle recoil. Something is being fired, and many “non-lethal” round can be quite lethal, especially at such close range. And, autopsies of corpses from the Marmara with multiple gunshot wounds to the head do indeed suggest execution. I would venture that this video would be considered important ancillary evidence were this to be prosecuted in an average American courtroom before a jury. I would also venture that in such a hypothetical case the “average person in the street” would tend to agree with the proposition, based on a range of available evidence (including this footage), that there were indeed summary executions carried out by IDF commandos on the Mavi Marmara.
3. Nothing “proves” anything. “Proof” as such does not really exist – the Greek Skeptics demonstrated that several thousand years ago. Prove to me that the world outside my door doesn’t wink out of existence when I shut the door – good luck; it’s impossible. So, absolute proof of proposition “a” – Israel’s claim that Marmara dead wound up with multiple bullet wounds to their heads because they attacked IDF commandos, or “b” – the counter claim, that the commandos executed civilians, does not exist and will never exist. All we have are official Israeli government accounts on one side, and eyewitness accounts from civilians on the Marmara on the other, corroborated by video evidence smuggled off the Marmara. But if Israel was interested in an objective accounting of what happened on the ship, why did they attempt to seize all the evidence, video and otherwise ? It suggests basic bad faith.
Interesting observation, what I see is two IDF soldiers shooting a subdue passanger execution style, look man is simple if there was no intention to execute goyins why not realease all the confiscated footage?? That’s how you put a stop to all this “conspiracies” right?
More damming is the 15min (so far) raw footage
Its been edited and cut from an hour and doesn’t explain where blood (first 2min) on ladder came from, but it certainly gives timeline of events. Activist dead or wounded before commandos ever board the ship
First coverage of news conference I have seen (kindly sent by Sharon)
Unfortunately a bit wishy washy “The footage released by Lee appears to confirm elements of both accounts”
What needs to be shown/explained is the time line. The 15min edit shows blood on ladder in the first 2 minutes, but no explanation of where blood came from. Then later shows commandos rappelling down …
From what I have seen so far, appears to support time line that people on board ship were dead or wounded before any commando set foot on deck. http://twitter.com/delegitimize/ says more footage will be released tomorrow.
If video shows that people on board were dead or wounded before any commando rappelled down that supports every single survivor testimony.
It also means, more ominously, that the IDF deliberately provoked passengers to ensure a confrontation when they rappelled down.
I understand that the “blood” on the steps/ladder was from paint ball gun. I think it was in a NY Times blog, and either the blogger or a commenter noted the lunacy of using red paint.
More DL links of 488MB footage released so far
Issue I see is the IDF claims they acted in self-defense and have had their version of events and their video played the world over of commandos rappelling down and being attacked.
The 15min released so far, shows in the first 2-5min unexplained blood stains on a ladder, sounds of gunfire, commandos rappelling down from a helicopter. If the blood on the ladder is a passengers blood, wounded or dead before any commando set foot on the ship, that supports every single survivors testimony that they were attacked before being boarded.
It means, irrefutably, that the IDF deliberately provoked the passengers in order to achieve the outcome the IDF and the US-Israeli Gov wanted, a confrontation leading to murder, mayhem, and pre-determined justification of ‘self-defense’ by the IDF
The IDF, AIPAC, the US congress, Jon Stewart, Glenn Beck, ABC, BBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NBC, SkyNews, etc etc ad nauseam propagandists have barraged the world with “Israel acted in self-defense” Same old story. This video potentially destroys that completely. Thats why have to see it in its entirety.
It will be ignored by Israeli controlled media/politicians and get little exposure, make no mistake, but it is potentially irrefutable to someone who cares about the truth
The media team on board Mavi Marmara had a complex operation, streaming video from different sources, including a pool TV camera, ship’s security cameras, etc, and then broadcasting it (as it came in) to different news agencies, etc, including the IHH, which was what I saw, live. They used a secret frequency to try and avoid Israeli jamming.
The Turkish coordinator of all this was shot relatively early, from a helicopter, so it’s not at all surprising that there was great confusion.
Whether the person who was killed was actually Furkan Dogan or not (there is no visual evidence of who it was, and will be none while Israel holds all the passengers’ media) the fragmentary sequence shows a deliberate murder.
You can see testimony from a very involved eye-witness here:
the cbc with a balanced report on the incident
As I said before and was censored:
These are Americam made 98Custom Paintball rifles, manufactured by Tippmann.
These can not kill let alone execute anyone.
It might hurt, when pointed against soft tissue like eyes.
Nice one. Unbelievable, but nice try.
[comment deleted for comment rule violation]
i see the gun, i see the sodier… but i don see him shoot…
You forgot to metion that the soldiers took the blood of the killed moslems for Passover and took the organs for transplantion.
Another comedian! What is it about dead Muslims that brings out the sense of humor of Israeli worst supporters??
Please see the following Jerusalem Post report:
It’s about a new Israeli hero called “St.-Sgt. S.” who like his comrades was armed with a 9 mm. Glock pistol. Haaretz says the pirates started shooting the relatively unarmed passengers soon after they boarded the ship.
S. calls the six passengers he murdered “mercenaries”:
“Facing more than a dozen of the mercenaries, and convinced their lives were in danger, he and his colleagues opened fire, he said. S. singlehandedly killed six men. His colleagues killed another three.”
A possible reason for the massacre was to free the soldiers who were taken down and so prevent hostage negotiations which would be considered a grave military defeat.
Another reason may be loss of rational thinking due to hate filled education and punctured pride.
This video was edited for dramatic effect. Watch the original…
The soldier who supposedly shot this person kicks him once and walks away BEFORE the next soldier kicks him a couple more times, then follows after the (apparently still live) person who crawls away.
It is quite clear that there are no gunshots.
If what the Israelis did is so obviously horrific, why do the flotilla supporters have to be so dishonest? “19 dead”, “shot four times in the face”, “exections”… discredited one by one.
How does it feel to be used?
Actually, on the audio portion of the video you CAN hear gunshots, but they are coming fr. another part of the boat that is not visible. Further, why do you think a commando might not have shot a victim and then kicked him? Or that someone shot might not crawl away (as long as they are wounded & not dead)?
One story said Furkan was shot four times in the head. It turns out he was killed by one shot to the head & there were four other shots to the body. Is it your intent to claim that this someone works in Israel’s favor???
Used? Hardly. But I have a better question? How does it feel to be a hasbarist?
As for the number of dead, Israel still hasn’t named who it killed so how would we know the precise number? There are still six missing. Why hasn’t Israel made any statement about this even to deny their existence? And nine dead are somehow more acceptable to you because the number 19 turned out POSSIBLY to be wrong?
To Black Rabbit – sorry for the late response but I just saw your post and can’t let this silliness go by unchecked. To suggest the flotilla supporters (i.e. passengers) are dishonest is beyond insulting. As one of three people in the Cyprus Free Gaza media office during and after the massacre, I can attest to the fact that we reported no deaths or other casualties until the IDF confirmed them. When journalists were claiming 3 or 4 dead we said we couldn’t confirm. Then when Israel reported ten, then sixteen, then nineteen dead, we figured they should know since they were responsible for all of them.
As for your facts in quotes, can you please show any evidence they have been discredited? That passengers WERE executed, and that the 19 year old Turkish/American passengers was shot five times in all including four times in the face and head? If anyone is being used it is you and those like you who refuse to acknowledge that Israel behaved like a terrorist state when it preyed on boats in international waters and murdered unarmed passengers who were 70 miles from Israel and moving even further away when they were attacked.
It’s incredibly painful for me to see what Israel has become–like South Africa during the worst of Apartheid. Israel is now led by a vicious right-wing group who use the Holocaust- the worst crime in human history- for their own gain, and call any Jew who objects to the abuse of Palestinians a “self-hating” Jew.
The denial by many Israelis about war crimes committed by their country is so high that no video, no witnesses, NOTHING will sway them from their blindness. A tragedy to turn away from self-examination, which has always been an integral part of Jewish culture
Furkan Dogan was not, as the media likes to describe, “Turkish” or even “Turkish-American.” He was a 19 year old AMERICAN, born in New York, and carried an American passport with a Turkish residency stamp. The media continues to try to downplay or dilute the fact that Furkan Dogan was an American, to save Israel from the wrath of Americans.
Not quite true. Yes, he was a U.S. citizen. But he spent most of his life in Turkey & was thoroughly Turkish. I’m not discrediting the notion that the U.S. gov’t should’ve taken a much more active role in representing his interests after his death than it did.
I don’t think it matters where he actually lived; it’s a qualifier that makes him look like he doesn’t matter. All persons who are officially American citizens deserve diplomatic protection regardless of where they reside. The US would have been quite PO’d if, for example, an American residing in Iran got murdered by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards; so what’s the difference?
[comment deleted–if your goal is to score pts in the hasbara war, this is the wrong place for you]