The list of surreal developments reeled off by the Netanyahu government continues apace. Haaretz reports that his Shas coalition partner persuaded the PM that Rachel’s Tomb and the Cave of the Patriarchs, where Kahanist serial killer Baruch Goldstein made his Alamo-like last stand, should be named as national heritage sites. Could it be that Bibi wishes to embrace this massacre of Palestinians in an act of national atonement thereby marking the Cave as an Israel heritage site? Nah.
In light of this development, I suggest that Mahmoud Abbas propose that West Jerusalem and other abandoned Israeli-Palestinian villages be named Palestinian national heritage sites since 700,000 exiled Palestinians lived in them before 1948.
I’m urging Mexico to put in a similar claim for the Alamo. After all, it was once Mexico’s territory and a famous battle was fought there which Mexican forces won. It was even a massacre just like the Cave of the Patriarchs. Why shouldn’t they claim it as a Mexican heritage site and reclaim the Alamo for Mexico since it was stolen from them in the 19th century?
Israel too should put in a claim to the territory of the Khazars on the basis of Yehuda Ha-Levi’s claim that their king coverted to Judaism centuries ago. That’s certainly a Jewish national heritage site. The fact that it may be smack dab in the middle of the Ukrainian steppes should be of little moment to anyone.
And let’s also recognize Slobodan Milosevic’s claim to Kosovo on the basis of the birthing of the Serbian nation there close to a millenium ago and a lost Serbian battle fought in the 14th century.
Similarly, I’d encourage Japan to name Nanjing as a Japanese heritage site since it once occupied that city and all of China. The rape of Nanjing was clearly an important event in Japanese history. Why shouldn’t Japan renew its territorial claim to Nanjing on that basis? I’m also going to write to prime minister Berlusconi, who has a thing for Italian national greatness, to name Jerusalem as an Italian heritage site since ancient Rome occupied Israel for quite a long time. Titus’ Arch in the Roman Forum certainly proves the Roman claim to Jerusalem and justifies reclaiming the city that was such an important part of Roman greatness in antiquity.
I think the Vatican should lay physical claim to Bethlehem as theirs since it was the birthplace of their Lord. Maybe they should claim Jerusalem too since he died there. Or imagine someday that we can clone an extinct Neanderthal and bring him back to life. He too should have the right to demand all of his ancient hunting grounds returned as Neanderthal heritage sites.
Don’t ya know, there’s going to be Zionist history museums built on both sites to the tune of $100 million:
Netanyahu said the two sites would be added to a list that includes areas to be designated for refurbishment. The state will thus allot NIS 400 million to renovate the sites, which include museums and landmarks of key moments in Zionist history.
I’ll bet ya dollars to donuts the Cave of the Patriarchs exhibit is going to avoid a certain historic massacre like the plague.
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Netanyahu is, in the words of Holden Caulfield in “The Catcher in the Rye,” “as sensitive as a toilet seat.” It is just his way of reinforcing the idea that the only history is Jewish history, that Palestinian history is to be erased and eradicated, that the Palestinian people do not, and never did, exist. I am sure that if he had his way, Al Aqsa mosque would not exist, either. He would tear it down in a heartbeat.
Mary-
The Arabs claim there never was a Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Arafat refused to sign a statement saying that, according to the offer made at Camp David by Barak, that while he would be given control of the Temple Mount, he would acknowledge that the Jews in addition to the Muslims view it as a holy site.
So do you acknowledge that there was a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount prior to the building of Al-Aqsa, and were there Jewish kingdoms in the country during Biblical times?
You’ve been reading too much Dore Gold. “The Arabs” don’t claim anything any more than “the Jews” claim the Muslim connection to Jerusalem was fabricated (also from Dore Gold who, btw represents all Jews no more than whichever Arab source you & Dore found who claims there never was a Holy Temple).
I personally don’t want to get into competing ancient claims to the Holy Land. IF you want to do that be my guest. There are thousands of other hasbarist sites where that stuff will be gobbled up by gullible readers. That’s where this argument belongs.
I’m not going to argue it, either. All three of the great monotheistic faiths have legitimate claims, so all should be honored. Netanyahu was interviewed in Haaretz today, and he made noise to the effect that the Jews alone have a claim to this site, which is absolutely wrong. To claim it as only a piece of Jewish history and to ignore Islamic and Christian history is wrong.
I can hardly wait to find out just how Netanyahu plans to go about naming Abraham’s birthplace as one of Israel’s holy sites.
He’ll think of something, while he’s also cogitating on how to slither away from the Dubai debacle unscathed.
It would be a lot easier if Israel were illegally occupying it, but what with Israel’s best mentor occupying it and all, maybe they can make a deal with the Obama administration.
BS”D
Questions to everyone??
How is the Place of Yaacov(Jacob) the father of the 12 tribes (who we are ) his father Yitzchak (Isaac) the one who was laid on the alter where The Temple stood and Avrahom (Abraham) The Father of our Mitzvot and any physical connection to Hashem (G-D) and the land thru Brit Milah(Bris) or just the smashing of His fathers Idols and going to Nuachs (Noah) son Melchizedik (Shem) to confirm it all. How is this not reason to confirm these are our historic sites?
The Muslims would not let us cross more than 7 steps or ever enter Mererot Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs) for 500 years. The Christians came to our land to destroy us and everyone else in the Crusades. What must happen for us to wake up put the flag in the ground and say,”Hashem’s Land and he said for US(Jews) to take care of it?
Mind you this is not just the “Tomb of the Patriarchs it is also the place of the Matriarchs = Sara, Rivkah and Leah!”
Someday I pray the Jewish people remember why Hashem took us out of Egypt again…
A B’Simcha Adar/ A Happy Month of Adar and a Frielechin Purim / Happy Purim,
Yehoshua
I’m literally stupefied. How can you argue with someone who believes literally every word of the Bible (at least the ones that reflect favorably on Jews) is true?
And just an innocent question for you: now that it’s the happy month of Adar, do you plan to dance in joy at Baruch Goldstein’s grave as your co-religionist settlers do each yr at Purim?
“What must happen for us to wake up put the flag in the ground and say,”Hashem’s Land and he said for US(Jews) to take care of it?”
It just begs the question…
What are the rest of us – chopped liver?
Who exactly is “the rest of us?”
To my untrained eye, Yehoshua did not mean to exclude anybody.
Oh, I don’t know about that. I’m not Jewish, and his statements certainly seem to have excluded me.
Cave of the Patriarchs
is not “where Kahanist serial killer Baruch Goldstein made his Alamo-like last stand”
it is where our patriarchs are burried.
Avraham and Sarah,
Itzchak and Rivka,
Yaakov and Leah.
If this is not our national shrine, then what, shopping malls in Tel Aviv?
I think you know that the massacre occurred there. Would you prefer to erase it?
O, Lord. We’ve got a live one. You really believe that these people are literally buried there? Do you have any proof whatsover that this is true in any real sense other than a Biblical story that indicates that they were buried in some area in the vicinity of this shrine?
It is not a national Israeli shrine. It is, if anything a Jewish shrine. Those are 2 diff. things, though not for you. BTW, this shrine is also sacred for Musims (for diff. reasons) but I presume you don’t give a flying f(^k about that.
Whether these people are really buried there; whether these people ever existed, is immaterial. This site is our (Jewish) national shrine.
Yes, indeed this site is also holy to Islam. And the last I checked the Moslems have access to it. Why, they seem to be praying in the room containing alleged remains of Itzchak (who might be considered a nemesis of their progenitor Ishmael).
The situation was quite different when this shrine was under Jordanian control. The Jews were not allowed anywhere near the place.
You seem to ascribe a lot of opinions to me. What I give a flying f(^k about, for example. Calling me a live one. A “live” what, if I may ask…
BTW, is the Moslem claim to this site being holy to them based on some sources more reliable than ours?
And finally, what do you think merits being called a national Jewish shrine?
YOu know as well as I that Orthodox Jews worship this place as a shrine because they literally believe they are buried there. And even you’ve conceded there is a very good likelihood they aren’t (after first claiming that they are). So it is a shrine based on a fiction, as is so much extremist settler hocus pocus.
Their access is restricted esp. compared to Jewish access. In addition, there is the matter of the odd settler terror attack which does tend to dampen Muslim enthusiasm for accessing the site.
There were no Jews anywhere near the place who could access it. So it’s patently untrue that Jews weren’t allowed near it. In fact, I bet if a Diaspora Jew had wanted to visit it they could though neither you nor I know this for a fact (though I admit this & you don’t).
You are a supporter of settler extremism. A “live” settler extremist or fellow traveler.
The room where the Ben Gurion declared independence. That’s truly a national Israeli shrine. In case you didn’t recongize the fact–Israel & Judaism are not synomymous. So your attempt to yoke the 2 is flat out wrong & once again proves yr extreme nationalist bona fides.
Dear Sir, Orthodox Jews do not worship this place, nor do they worship any other place. They worship at this place, they also warship at the Western Wall. Surely you do not claim that they worship the wall.
When you turn it into a national historical site you are worshipping the place. I would argue that the nationalist settler argument HAS made a fetish of territory & thus distorted the values of Judaism.
“I would argue that the nationalist settler argument HAS made a fetish of territory & thus distorted the values of Judaism.”
What are the values of Judaism? I honestly have no clue what you are referring to. What have the settlers distorted?
Aren’t you a settler living in the land rightfully belonging to so called Native Americans?
I can recommend several good courses you can take to learn more on this subject if your knowledge is deficient on this.
You’re using arguments from the pro settler rhetorical handbook. It’s a common tactic to deflect criticism of Israel & the settlers by noting all the other inequities & injustices in the world & claiming no one has any right to criticize Israel or settlers since these other phenomena exist. Nice try, but rather pathetic.
Israel is a nation. Judaism is NOT a nation. If you are a Jew you are not a nation. A people, perhaps. But not the same as a nation.
How much do you really know about Judaism? Perhaps you really should enroll in some classes. Seriously.
What are the values of Judaism? I honestly have no clue what you are referring to.
I can recommend several good courses you can take to learn more on this subject if your knowledge is deficient on this.
My knowledge is fine. I was asking what You meant by that. I can just imagine what books you would recommend.
You are accusing me of using an argument of pro settler rhetorical handbook. However in your attack ad-hominem you are not addressing my point – your hypocrisy.
Israel is a Jewish country. Judaism is a nation. Jewish Nation. As I wrote before, it is pathetic that people who grant a national status to the Palestinians deny an equal status to the Jews.
Oh well, I see that a further discussion is pointless.
Have a great Passover Holiday,
Andrew Katz
What on earth are you talking about? Judaism is a religion. It is ludicrous to insist that it is a nation.
PS Of course the Palestinians constitute a nation by definition:
Debatable.
No, it isn’t. It is a country composed of Jews and non-Jews both of whom are citizens. If it is not a country of all its citizens then it is not a democracy.
Nope, sorry. Judaism is a religion, not a nation.
And so ends the real Jewish education of Andrew Katz.
But Richard, Israel is The Jewish State, which of course prevents it from being a real democracy. If it is to ever become a democracy, and a state for all its citizens, it must cease to be The Jewish Sate.
PS I suspect my Jewish education, and my knowledge are better than that of Mr. Andrew Katz.
Since Judaism isn’t a nationality it can’t have national shrines. And since the site in question is not in Israel it can’t be an Israeli national shrine either. How about declaring Abraham’s birthplace one of your national shrines and see how far that gets you?
Judaism is not nationality? To me it is. I consider myself a Jew. That is my nationality. Is your trying to deny my nationality any different then some Israelis trying to deny Palestinian nationality?
Good points, Mary. The outrageous audacity of making a “national shrine” out of a place illegally occupied just leaves me flabbergasted. The “Jewish State”‘s encroachment on Palestinian land is relentlessly arrogant and extremely evil. How can anyone who believes in God think this kind of thievery would please him? Whatever Israel wants, it just goes ahead and takes it, and to hell with the Palestinians.
Andrew, are you serious? Jewish is a nationality? Since when?
I think it’s interesting how Israelis become conveniently religious when they want to steal something from Palestine. Suddenly they’re quoting the Bible and talking about Abraham and the Torah, when the rest of the time they proclaim that they’re atheists.
The fact remains that you Israelis have no right to make any part of Palestine a “national shrine.” How dare you?
Richard, you can get as nasty as you like, be slick in your turn of a phrase, and claim that the Bible’s record of transactions of land sales is immaterial because it is merely Biblical tales.
Listen very carefully: Jews were in this land before Arabs or Palestinians or whatever politically correct labels they choose. You can rail against that but that will not change the facts. Jews were expelled by militarily-superior occupiers throughout history and this same world wishes to deny them their home. Too bad, Richard: this land is the Jews’ land, end of story.
No, you listen very carefully (I know, it’s impossible for you– but I thought I’d try anway), neither you nor I know how much of the Bible is historically accurate and how much is myth or national narrative. There certainly is not enough guarantee of historical veracity to justify making historical claims of the sort that your types do regarding an alleged Jewish claim to the land. Besides, no supernatural force or even sacred book gives any people a right to anything. Every religion claims God is on their side. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be a religion. Jewish terrorism in pursuit of such divine claims is no better than similar Christian terrorism during the Crusades or Muslim aggression now or during the time of Islamic expansion.
And the next time you try to pull any snark as you did in referring to me by an Arab name you’ll be gone in the time it takes to blink your eye.
In any case, Richard, there is no such Arabic name as اخمد aka Achmed. There is a name احمد aka A7mad, which is usually spelled Ahmad in English, and is formed from the same root as Mohammad.
Thanks. The guy is a nincompoop & is just trying his best to show it.
Your last sentence threatens in the best tradition of bestial terrorists who behead innocents to render themselves important. And yet you saw fit to post my response. Very p.c. of you, Richard.
So is your solution that since Jews have no claim to live on land in Israel they all be placed in the sea? How very United Arab Republic of you, thanks.
Very original, “Achmed.” You worry about Jews ending up in the sea but it’s obvious that you don’t give a good g*ddamn where the Palestinians end up.
Whether Jews have a “claim” or not is irrelevant; they forcibly removed an indigenous people from their homeland, which as far as I’m concerned is a crime against humanity. The abuse and ethnic cleansing continue as a matter of Israeli government policy. IMHO, Jews have no special claim to Palestine or to any other place in the world. However, they have stolen Palestine and built a country there. It is not too late for the Palestinians to be given equal rights, and it is not too late to stop the continuing theft of their land by greedy Israelis.
Mary: Palestinians as a people or a nation don’t exist. They were part of Jordan, or Transjordan, which itself was only created in the last century by the same wimpy European forces that want Israel to self-destruct. Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years on Jewish land. Jewish land, that’s right. Arabs usurped that land, together with Ottoman Empire rulers. Not even the Quaran talks about Jerusalem, for example. Your revisionist history doesn’t make Arab claims right today and never will. There are a zillion square miles on which to settle so-called Palestinian Arabs. Let them go there in peace and stop killing Jews.
Omigod, you think threatening to ban you is the same as beheading you?? Now we know you’ve taken lv. of yr senses!
My name last name belongs to me & not you. Use it again & you’re banned.
I didn’t say Jews had no right to live in Israel. I said they had no right to claim that others don’t have an equally legitimate right. Are you merely obtuse & willfully lying about what my views are?
Or? Absolutely right? Is that what you omitted from your response?
I’m banned? Like the world has done to the Jews for time immemorial? Not this time, Richard. This is one Jew who will not go gently into your good night.
I reserve a special place in hell for obnoxious twats like you. Yes, you are banned.
Thanks for giving me a specific reason to ban you as this is an explicit violation of my comment rules. Go back to Yitzhar & Tapuach & the lap of the Kahane family where you belong.