Only in Israel can they make a mockery of national security. Well, perhaps I should say only in Israel do they make a mockery of national security so well. I suppose the Bush-Cheney regime did a pretty good job of it. But never in quite as ludicrous a way as this story.
Lily Sussman is a young woman who is part-Jewish and traveling through the Middle East. As such, she poses an extreme danger to Israel. No, she’s not a terrorist. Since she’s non-violent she doesn’t carry weapons either. But she did have a laptop with her when she attempted to enter Israel from Egypt recently. And we all know that laptops in the hands of the wrong people (like peace activists) can be lethal weapons. God only knows what was on her machine. Perhaps an essay about non-violence and ways to aid Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. Perhaps, even (God forbid) a statement that endorsed Boycott Divestment Sanctions (BDS) or the Goldstone Report. You just never know where the next existential threat to Israel is going to crop up. So I say bravo to the Israeli border police. Just doing their job to protect Israel from the dangerous ideas and maladies imported from dark dank places like Egypt or Spain or the U.S. or South Africa or God knows where.
At any rate, Lily’s laptop suffered an ignominious fate. It was blasted to smithereens by three bullets. What were they afraid of? Did they think it was a dirty bomb? Did they think she was carrying an Al Qaeda manual? Just as the U.S. did to Vietnamese villages during the war, it looks like the police had to destroy Lily’s laptop to save it.
Here is her best guess as to what caused the Israelis’ suspicions to be aroused. You can be the judge of what possible ideas can be rattling around in the alleged minds of these Israeli security “experts:”
Security had never asked for my password. Was it my peeling Arabic stickers on the keyboard? Or something else during the questioning which set them off?
Toward the beginning of the search an officer began clicking through the photos on my camera. She froze on a picture of graffiti, which read “Fuck” scrawled next to the Jewish star of David. “Why do you have this picture?” She asked me rather aggressively. “Because I was disturbed by it too,” I answered. She didn’t press the subject but continued clicking…presumably looking at pictures from a photo exhibit about Israel’s January attack of Gaza.
Though I usually delete all my pictures when uploading, unluckily I had clicked save rather than delete when uploading this set and never got around to manually deleting on my camera. Whoops…
Among other suspicious item; an Arabic phrasebook, a journal entry that mentioned a Palestinian (yes, they even flipped through my journal), stamps from Syria, Qatar and the UAE, Palestinians in Palestine guidebook, and a map a friend had drawn with a main street in Jerusalem, the central bus station and my intended hostel…
All I can say is Lily, welcome to the world of national security run amok. And lest anyone argue this is an isolated incident, one of the sub-genres of this blog is documenting outrages perpetrated by Israeli security personnel at airports and border crossings. We have the incident in South Africa of a security agent demanding to question a South African citizen who wasn’t even boarding an El Al flight. This incident caused South Africa to threaten to cancel all El Al’s flights there. And the incident of the award-winning Palestinian filmmaker whose statuette was confiscated by security agents before she boarded a flight back to Israel. I suppose they thought she might use the award to bash the head of the pilot or perhaps drop it in the air over Tel Aviv as the plane landed thus becoming the first terrorist to assault Israel in such a way.
I’m always delighted at the varied ways in which Israeli authorities attempt to deflect criticism of such activity. In this case, the spokesperson wasn’t even trying:
The Israel Airports Authority said in response that, “A [security] check performed on the lady’s luggage signalled the need for security personnel to follow procedure. The police who carried out the operation in question were called to the scene. We suggest you approach the Israel Police for any additional information.”
Were Lily traveling with a group of supporters of the Hebron Fund or Chabad or Ateret Cohanim or Aipac what would be the chances she and her laptop would’ve suffered such a fate?
Even the US Consulate is aware of the rabid nature of Israeli border guards. If you go to their website and read the information page, it’s enough to scare you into staying home, especially if you’re “visibly Muslim” or have stamps in your passport showing you’ve visited “Muslim countries” or others Israel considers hostile (which is just about all of them).
This young lady handled the situation well, and I hope these morons replace her laptop. It’s the least they can do. I guess her laptop was murdered simply because she was more Arab than Jewish. Coming to Israel from Egypt, having Arabic stickers on your keyboard and not knowing Jewish holidays are all a no-no.
Having worked in Bitachon El AL myself, albeit back in the late 70s, perhaps I can help you look at this from another perspective. First, I admit that Israeli security does profile people, and for the most part it works. Its not pleasant, but then again what Israel faces is not pleasant. You say that people are subjected to “Flying while Arab” but perhaps you judge all of Israel in a similar manner. She certainly did, stating following this incident “First, I completely agree with Freitas’s comment. “These guys shoot every day at unarmed people, even children” You should read the comments on her site, comparing Jews to Nazis etc. All because security was suspicious not so much about her but that she might have been an unwilling/unknowing mule as was the case with the Irish girl in London (See Nizar Hindawi) Imagine if she had entered one of the countries she visited, say Syria, with Israeli stickers, a Fuck Islam photo on her computer, a map of Damascus pointing out sensitive areas?
It only takes one slip-up by Israeli security to pay a price as was seen with the two British tourists who entered Israel through Jordan and tried to blow up Mikes Pub in Tel Aviv, and only through the intervention of the security at the pub was a bigger disaster averted. Nevertheless, 3 people were killed and 55 wounded.
I am also beginning to think she had an agenda by her provocative actions.
“I am also beginning to think she had an agenda by her provocative actions.”
Wow, I never realized that people could be trained to be paranoid.
This story is so ludicrous and Israel’s actions so outrageous that only someone trained to see everyone as a potential enemy (unless they’re Jewish of course) would think this episode was legitimate security procedure.
Yeesh.
I don’t think it’s paranoia. It’s unquestioning, slavish loyalty that stirs the mind to concoct mind-boggingly irrational excuses for anything the object of said loyalty does.
Obedience on this level trumps everything: Ethics, logic, physical reality. 2 + 2 = 5.
Don’t know how to tell you this, naftali, but I have entered Syria multiple times from different ports of entry, and no one ever bothers to look at my computer, or my luggage, and I would bet you any amount of money that no one bothered to look at Lily Sussman’s computer when she entered Syria either. Ditto for every other Muslim country I have entered. from Pakistan to Egypt, to Iraq, to Lebanon to Iran. So, even if Lily Sussman had a “F*** Islam photo” on her computer, no one would have known.
And how interesting that you see Arabic keyboard stickers as equivalent to “Israeli stickers”. Says something about your mindset I guess.
Oh – and if someone entered Syria with a hand-drawn map of a main street in Damascus, the main bus or train station, and a hostel, authorities, if they saw it at all, would see it as a completely normal thing for a tourist to carry.
All I can say is that I am very, very glad that authorities in Arabic/Muslim countries are more rational toward tourists and visitors than Israeli authorities are.
Shirin makes an excellent point. Even upon entering Pakistan, arguably one of the most dangerous places in the world to travel, one is not subjected to the hassle and degradation that apparently is routine upon entry to Israel. And although Turkey has also experienced acts of terrorism, they don’t engage in the kind of overblown nonsense Israel does, either.
Your victim mentality seems to make you forget all reason and proportion. You have an overwhelming fear of terrorism bordering on hysteria, individually and collectively.
I have been subjected to exactly zero hassle when entering any country other than the United States, the country whose passport I carry. That includes Pakistan, Iran, and Syria, among numerous others. I did have to go through quite a thorough inspection of my carry-on upon leaving Pakistan, which consisted of the young woman doing the inspection admiring and asking where I had purchased numerous articles of clothing and jewelry, and expressing interest in and curiosity about my make-up and make-up paraphenalia. In short, it was more of a girlie chat session than anything else.
Also, when I left Syria last year the passport control official insisted that I needed a “pink card”, which is required of all Iraqis when entering and leaving Syria, and I kept pointing to my passport and insisting that I did not need a pink card because my nationality is USA. I don’t know what that was about unless he managed to pick up on my accent from the few words we exchanged in the beginning, but after a few minutes of my stubbornly insisting that I did not need a pink card, he typed something into the computer, admitted he had been mistaken and I went on my way. If that happened in Egypt I would assume it was a ploy to get a bit of under-the-table money from me, but that kind of thing rarely goes on in Syria.
On the other hand, I have often been subjected to considerable hassles in the U.S., including being quizzed by so-called Homeland Security. No one has ever pulled out a handgun and shot holes in my computer, though.
Shirin,
You are right, Syria is paradise on earth with Pakistan a close second. Or is Iraq a close second, if you ignore them butchering each other daily. Not only that, but both are very clued in to fashion trends. Why are you hassled in the US? Oh, I know, they are Israels lackey and suffer from paranoia as well as having no fashion sense.
Naftali, a a truly idiotic comment if I ever saw one. Your dislike of Arabs and Muslims is painfully evident. Why don’t you stick to the issue and stop sniping at Arabs and Muslims? Oh, right…It’s a favorite hasbarat strawman tactic to point fingers and say “we’re not as bad as they are,” as if by doing so it would excuse you from your own lousy human rights record.
I never had a problem except for one time when I was detained while re-entering the US, and it was a young and overzealous border patrol guard who saw I had a Pakistan visa in my passport. They wasted three hours of my life questioning me and making me sit in a big room with a lot of other unfortunate people, none of whom were Americans. Once they determined that I wasn’t a shoe bomber, they returned my passport to me and let me go.
I’ve also never heard of any American having a laptop murdered by an overzealous TSA agent.
Actually, Naftali, Syria is a wonderful country with an extremely powerful sense of history, and some of the kindest, loveliest, most peaceful people on earth. And there are places that are so unimaginably beautiful that I have described them as heaven on earth. In addition to to the friendly, hospitable nature one expects in an Arab country, Syria has, as one American visitor put it, an even “gentler” vibe about it.
Not that being “clued into fashion trends” is in any way relevant, you are once again showing your abysmal ignorance of your subject. Style is a big deal in Syria for Muslims, Christians, and everyone else, not only in the cities, but also in rural areas. As for Pakistan, in addition to a keen interest in European fashion in some segments of society, the country has its own fashion and its own designers. Pakistani fashion is simply beautiful with vibrant, rich colours, beautiful fabrics, graceful lines, amazing hand beading and embroidery, and yes, changing trends. In the case of Iraq, it is just amazing what happens to people’s interest in fashion when the country is bombed to the stone age, starved for eight years, bombed again, and then brutally occupied by a force determined to raze to the ground and transform to its liking the infrastructure, all the civil institutions, the economy, the social structure, the culture, and the history. In this case fashion tends to take a back seat to survival.
As for your last silly remark, please do not put words into my mouth. I do not take kindly to that kind of thing.
You mean you can help us look at it fr. the Shin Bet’s perspective?
You haven’t worked for El Al security for 40 yrs & yet you can tell that its racial profiling & blatant discrimination against dark-skinned, Arab looking travelers “works?” My blog is replete with numerous examples in which it hasn’t worked. I’ve documented them for you. Read them. A Hebrew University law professor humilitated. A documentary filmmaker strip searched and her award stolen. The daughter of an Israeli Supreme Court justice humiliated. It goes on and on. What do you know? Very little apparently.
You’d think if she were a real terror suspect they wouldn’t have attempted to smear her self-respect into the ground by destroying her laptop. You’d think they’d have wanted to examine what was in it to find out what terror secrets you was hiding. That’s what a smart intelligence operative would have done. Either the ones who tormented Sussman weren’t very smart or they were toying with her (or perhaps both).
This is pure hasbara and that is why such links and recitations are violations of my comment rules. You don’t get to recite the litany of all terror attacks against Israel here because the other side can recite its litany as well and it gets you nowhere. Do not violate my comment rules again. Read them before commenting further.
My God, this happened in 1973. Given that you worked for El Al security (or possibly the Shin Bet) in the 1970s & are reciting terror incidents from then perhaps you stopped living after the 1970s? YOu do realize that things have happened since, don’t you?
Destroying her laptop didn’t prevent any incidents. In fact, it created one.
You apparently don’t even realize that your own nation isn’t kol kach ay-yay-yay when it comes to these principles: democracy–truncated, freedom of speech–curtailed, women’s rights–when it comes to the Haredi community, not so much.
Your direct, personal experience is 40 years old!
Right, a truly suspicious package. But that doesn’t include a laptop. What were their suspicions about it or Lily Sussman? How did they document them? She didn’t know her Jewish holidays? Do you really believe that such would cause a laptop to be blown up here in the U.S.??
I can’t say I feel sorry for you since you’re so irritating. But the emotion is reciprocated on our part more or less.
Richard,
I came to your site vowing to post in a rational manner devoid of personal attacks. Yet, following my initial post, comments from your readers Mary and Shirin:
Paranoid
Lunatic
Yes, I was employed by the Shin Bet, and I consider it an honor. I indicated clearly in my post that it was a long time ago.
Lily is not a dark skinned Arab looking traveller. There seems to have been enough red flags raised by her to warrant closer scrutiny. We don’t know if her laptop reacted in any way to checks for explosives. There was obviously enough concern to warrant the actions taken. Contrary to what you all believe, the security services don’t just pull out their guns and start shooting, at laptops or people.
“she might have been an unwilling/unknowing mule.” Note that I used the word mule, in that she herself wasn’t necessarily suspect. There could have been concern that she was duped into carrying something she was unaware she had. There is plenty of precedent for that.
Would you think that because the incident with the Japanese terrorists working on behalf of the PLO happened back in 1973, that Israel would say at some point, ok, that happened a long time ago, we don’t have to be concerned about acts like that any more?
The US deported suspected terrorists to Syria, where they were tortured. (Maher Arar as one example) I think thats worse than blowing up a laptop.
Yes, Israel is not perfect, because its made up of human beings just like anywhere else. However, given the circumstances Israel faces, I would state that it is far more democratic than any country that would face similar circumstances, never mind those who surround it.
“I really, really feel sorry for people like you.” I never wrote this part.
I wonder if anyone’s employing you now to do what you’re doing? Or is it done out the goodness of your Zionist heart overflowing w. loyalty to your former employers and the right wing Zionist vision of paranoia against Arabs?
You’d have to have read my blog to know I was referring to the Shin Bet questioning of a S. African citizen who wasn’t even flying El Al at a S. African airport. The intelligence agent had no idea who this person was & clearly made this judgment based on skin color.
You’re kidding aren’t you? Do you think the Israeli border police would not have revealed this fact if it were true??? Pls. spare us such disingenuousness. It may satisfy you, but we have a bit higher standards & I hope you’ll recall that before trying to pass off such half baked ideas on an already skeptical audience.
You last worked for them 40 yrs ago. How do you know what they do or don’t do today? And allow us to smile knowingly at how well you’ve imbibed the Kool Aid. I’m sorry to say the Shin Bet does all this & more.
And you’re really claiming that there could be any similarity whatsoever between the Ben Gurion incident in 1973 & Lily Sussman? What was she doing? Scoping out the Taba airport for an Al Qaeda terror attack?
So you’re arguing that Israel has not tortured terror suspects? Put bullets in the brains of wounded Palestinian civilians on a public street? Assassinated other terror suspects w/o trial? I think this behavior is just as bad if not worse than what happened to Maher Arar (not that either is acceptable).
Uh, Mary, I posted facts. For more facts about the terror Israel has faced, actual incidents, see here.
http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm
Outrageous? Outrageous is Japanese terrorists shooting up the arrivals hall at Ben Gurion Airport. Outrageous is terrorists attacking a school in Maalot. Outrageous is bombs in cinemas, buses, restaurants, markets, pizzerias, universities and Passover dinners. Outrageous is 8000 rockets fired at civilians. Outrageous is a terrorist sending his pregnant “girlfriend/fiancee” with bombs in her bag to board an EL Al flight to Israel without her knowing what she was carrying.
Having a laptop destroyed to prevent incidents as above is a small price to pay. I know it angers you, but we can live with that too.
“Outrageous” is having lunatics hijack commercial jets and fly them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Even the US doesn’t harass travelers the way Israel does, so please give us a break here. It isn’t security, it’s insanity and everyone knows it. You focus your harassment on non-Jews, especially Muslims, and needlessly inconvenience innocent travelers because you are paranoid and perceive yourselves as perpetual victims.
I don’t think 8,000 rockets have anything to do with this young lady’s laptop being destroyed, nor are suicide bombs related to it. You are simply justifying lunatic behavior by your border officials by using unrelated past events as justification. And I know many travelers to Israel who have shared their own horror stories with me, so I know this kind of thing is disgustingly common.
Here’s an idea: Get out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and lift the blockade on Gaza, then maybe you’ll really have peace. Then someday you’ll stop simmering in endless fear and paranoia and become a normal, peaceful country instead of a pariah rogue state with an appalling human rights record. Once you end the occupation of Palestinian land and get your foot off their necks, you might find that you don’t need to shoot laptops or, say, strip search a young Arab woman with cerebral palsy and humiliate her by forcing her to sit in her wheelchair bleeding all over herself, because you seemed to think a maxi pad was a security issue. Spare me.
“Having a laptop destroyed to prevent incidents as above…”
Either you are joking or you are completely off your rocker. Suggesting that they shot the laptop in order to prevent an incident is beyond ludicrous. Right up there with suggesting that having Arabic keyboard stickers constitutes a threat.
Shooting the laptop had nothing to do with security, and everything to do with frustration over the fact that they could find nothing legitimate, and contempt for Arabs and a half-Jew who apparently found them more interesting than her own half-heritage.
I really, really feel sorry for people like you.
Oh, are you privy to the rules of engagement and action for the security forces in the area? I worked for EL AL security for 2 years, so I have DIRECT personal experience on how these things work. Even in the US today, a suspicious package at an airport will be removed and blown up.
As I said to Mary, no one is forcing you to visit Israel, as you noted, Syria is much more hospitable. Why, I am sure they will even let you visit Hama and ask questions about the 20,000 of their own people they murdered there.
Having a laptop destroyed to prevent incidents as above…”
Either you are joking or you are completely off your rocker. Suggesting that they shot the laptop in order to prevent an incident is beyond ludicrous. Right up there with suggesting that having Arabic keyboard stickers constitutes a threat.
Shooting the laptop had nothing to do with security, and everything to do with frustration over the fact that they could find nothing legitimate, and contempt for Arabs and a half-Jew who apparently found them more interesting than her own half-heritage.
I really, really feel sorry for people like you.
“Oh, are you privy to the rules of engagement and action for the security forces in the area?”
No, but I AM endowed with common sense and the ability to reason and think rationally.
“I worked for EL AL security for 2 years, so I have DIRECT personal experience on how these things work.”
I see. So, pulling out a gun and shooting up passengers’ laptops, handing them back to the passenger and sending them on their way is standard procedure for El Al security? Where is that in the SOP manual, somewhere between strip searching paraplegics and smearing homemade pastries onto the contents of people’s bags?
“Even in the US today, a suspicious package at an airport will be removed and blown up.”
A “suspicious package” is an unaccompanied package whose contents are unknown, not a passenger’s laptop computer that happens to have Arabic keyboard stickers and an offensive photograph. Security procedure in the US does not include shooting passengers’ laptops, or blowing up packages carried by passengers. In that case the procedure is first to ask the passenger what is in the package, and possibly to open the package and examine the contents. The contents may then be confiscated if they are prohibited materials.
“no one is forcing you to visit Israel, as you noted, Syria is much more hospitable.”
Actually, Syria IS much more hospitable as just about any American or European will tell you who has visited both places. I have never been anyplace where it is easier to make friends than in Syria. I have also never been anyplace where people are more friendly, honest, open, kind, and helpful, and that is saying a lot considering the Arabs’ well-deserved reputation for friendliness and hospitality. Syria is also one of the safest places on earth. The rate of violent crime is extremely low, and unlike in most third-world countries, your belongings are very safe as theft is rare. But you would know all that, wouldn’t you, since you are clearly an expert on the Arab world.
PS I find it shocking that someone who supposedly worked for El Al security for two years insists that it is standard procedure to pull out a weapon, shoot up a passenger’s laptop, hand it back to the passenger hard drive intact, and send her on her way does not know what constitutes a suspicious package, what the procedure actually is for handling suspicious packages, and how extremely rare it is that packages are ever blown up.
And by the way, Naftali, since you are such an expert on security procedures, perhaps you can also explain the purpose of shooting holes in a passenger’s computer while leaving the hard drive and its contents unharmed. What, exactly, were they aiming at that was such a major threat to the security of the Israeli public?
Amuse me. Picture me a scenario where the a) laptop would have posed a threat which b) would have been averted by shooting it with small arms. I know you have internalized the Kadavergehorsam to the point where you can summon up crazy-ass rationales for anything. Knock yourself out.
Oh, and if you could work in an explanation of how bombs can only be stored in the left side of a MacBook, that’d be worth some extra points.
Naftali worked for Shin Bet before laptops were even invented, so he/she doesn’t understand that there’s not much space inside a laptop where anything can be hidden. Besides, I fail to see what 8,000 rockets has to do with shooting a tourist’s laptop. I’m still waiting for clarification on that.
We’re seeing a steady parade of hasbarats visiting this blog lately; it’s great because it means this is seen as an important blog discussing important issues. Keep up the good work, Richard.
Mary,
When you travel with a laptop, why do they make you turn it on at the airport? BTW, this is silly, because its super easy to hide Semtex in a laptop and still have it work.
I love the way you and Shirin claim that we Israelis are all paranoid, have victim mentalities, etc. None of us are capable of independent thought like is common in the Arab/Muslim world
8000 rockets fired at civilians is called TERROR. Its all part of the same intention whether it be rockets at Sderot, bombs in Machane Yehuda Market, or Sbarro Pizzeria etc.
Naftali worked for Shin Bet before laptops were even invented, so he/she doesn’t understand that there’s not much space inside a laptop where anything can be hidden. Besides, I fail to see what 8,000 rockets has to do with shooting a tourist’s laptop. I’m still waiting for clarification on that.
We’re seeing a steady parade of hasbarats visiting this blog lately; it’s great because it means this is seen as an important blog discussing important issues. Keep up the good work, Richard.
First of all, I’m confused as to why you copy and paste my comments out of context. Your thought patterns are impossible to follow.
In fact, your entire comment defies comprehension. I see a bit of confrontationalism; you’re clearly on the defensive and not faring very well, either.
In my travels with a laptop I have not yet had an airport official ask me to turn it on, so I can’t answer your question. I have had to remove it from its bag, it has gone through the xray machine, but that is all. Occasionally, TSA officials will check a hard drive but I’ve not seen the obsessiveness of Israeli border officials anywhere else.
None of you hasbarats are capable of independent thought. I learned that lesson quite a long time ago. You obsess over the past; you’re still going on about rockets and suicide bombers in pizzerias, neither of which have a damned thing to do with harassing innocent passengers at border crossings.
“When you travel with a laptop, why do they make you turn it on at the airport?”
Ummmmm – they don’t make you turn it on, Naftali. They don’t even make you take it out of the sleeve or carrying case. The most they ask you to do is place it by itself, in its sleeve or carrying case, in a bin for x-ray, and in a lot of places they don’t even ask you to do that. I have gone through airports with my laptop stowed, nice and comfy in my purse or carry-on bag along with all my other stuff and no one said a word to me.
And now perhaps you can tell me how shooting three bullet holes into a laptop, leaving the hard drive intact, then handing it back to its owner and sending her on her way is a good method of disarming a potential “laptop bomb”.
PS “I love the way you and Shirin claim that we Israelis are all paranoid, have victim mentalities, etc.”
Do yourself a favour and do not put words into my mouth. I have never said “you Israelis” are all anything, including that you are “all paranoid, have victim mentalities, etc.”. In fact, I have not said that even about a particular individual Israeli, let alone about all Israelis.
Mary, yes of course, how could we know better than you what we should do for our security? Silly me. Of course, the fact that this terror has gone on way before Israel conquered Gaza and the West Bank from their occupiers Egypt and Jordan respectively who had announced to the whole world that they would throw the Jews into the sea escaped your attention. How foolish we are, thinking that years of homicide bombings aimed at our civilians might have anything to do with security.
If the US had profiled like Israel does, they would have cottoned on to the 9/11 hijackers beforehand.
Finally Mary, no one is forcing you or your delicate friends to go to Israel to be subjected to this annoyance. There are many other countries to visit, say Iran, Syria, Sudan, Iraq. All super tolerant societies. Yes, we will miss you, but we’ll manage.
YAAAAAAWWWWWWWWN!
Will you guys PLEASE get some new material? This stuff stopped being believable, let alone interesting decades and decades ago. Maybe you ought to find some new writers?
Right Shirin, how silly of me to compare Syria and other Muslim countries tolerance to Israel. Everyone knows that they are bastions of democracy, freedom of speech and expression and are especially tolerant of women. Its why the US sent prisoners there, knowing how well they would be treated.
Naftali, you suffer from an inability – or at least a refusal – to think consistently. Your attempt to use the fact that the U.S. rendered prisoners to “Syria and other Muslim countries” “knowing how well they would be treated” is truly unfortunate given Israel’s dismal and ongoing record with respect to torture, including its habit of torturing children.
You also need to do a bit of work on your logic since you find it quite reasonable to conflate a totalitarian regime that uses torture with a lack of tolerance of women and minorities. In fact, Syria is not only a country with a pluralistic society, women fare very well there and are active and productive at all levels. The President’s wife is considered one of the best-dressed women in the world, leads a very public life, and is extremely active in promoting social causes. Pluralism is not something Syrians have to work at or think about it, it is intrinsic to the society, which has been a very diverse one for many, many centuries.
Oh, sorry, Assads wife is well dressed, that makes it all better. I am sure that the people of Lebanon agree with you on how lovely the Syrians are, and all of them admire how well dressed Assads wife is.
In fact, Syria is not only a country with a pluralistic society, women fare very well there and are active and productive at all levels. The President’s wife is considered one of the best-dressed women in the world, leads a very public life, and is extremely active in promoting social causes.
So much bulls***, so little time! Seriously, Naftali, where do you get your information? Nevermind, I think I know.
First, you managed to miss my points entirely – surprise surprise. Hope they will be clearer in this format:
– Syrian society is pluralistic, and has been for centuries.
– The Ba`th party, for all its faults, is a pluralistic party with a pluralistic philosophy, almost on a par with the Communist party in that regard.
– President Bashshar Al Asad is western-oriented, and very friendly toward western society, and western culture. He is also very interested in technology and has made the internet available all over the country.
– The wife of President Bashshar Al Asad is a modern Syrian woman who plays an important and very visible leadership role in Syrian society.
– Syrian women have rights and freedoms on a par with men, and play a very visible role in society.
On the Lebanon subject you are as grievously ignorant as you are concerning everything else to do with the Arab and Muslim worlds. First, unlike you most Lebanese are capable of distinguishing between the Syrian people and the actions of the Syrian government.
Second, the Syrian military originally entered Lebanon at the request of the Lebanese government to help protect Lebanon from the depredations of Israel, and remained there by a treaty agreed upon by both governments. In the view of some, but certainly not all lebanese factions they overstayed their welcome, and now they are gone.
Third, Lebanese choose to travel to Syria all the time for various reasons ranging from visiting friends or family, to shopping, to business to vacation, so it seems they find the people and the atmosphere pleasant enough. And by the way, tons of Syrians also frequently travel to Lebanon for various reasons.
Of course, in your case we are trying to enlighten the willfully and determinedly factually-challenged, so I doubt any of us expects to see any actual change in your outlook. Sad, really. It can’t be pleasant or healthy to be so consumed with hatred so much of the time.
Well, Naftali, now that you have shown us your deep and extensive knowledge of of Syria and the rest of the Arab and Muslim world, and in particular their “tolerance” of women, how can I as a single woman who has for many decades lived and traveled extensively throughout the region possibly argue with you? I mean, what use is years and years of direct experience, knowledge of the language, close relationships in numerous Arab and Muslim countries compared to the understanding you have developed over the years? After all, what I have absorbed over my decades and decades as a female member of an Arab/Muslim family, and a female member of the Arab/Muslim world community are simply nothing compared to your experience listening to anti-Arab and anti-Muslim propaganda.
I defer to your superior knowledge and understanding of my community and my life within it.
I have a friend who died in a Syrian prison. He was a human rights activist who was imprisoned for speaking against the government and spreading anti-government propaganda over the internet. At least it is assumed that he is dead; he was supposed to be released last spring but he disappeared.
Syria is a beautiful country with a bad government. But I feel it is no worse than Israel’s in its treatment of Palestinians.
Naftali, you can go on and on, but there is no way you can justify this laptop incident, nor can you justify Israel’s maltreatment of travelers. You haven’t worked in the field in 40 years, which means your “knowledge” is so outdated as to be irrelevant. Israel’s behavior is unjustifiable, which is the subject of this blog and this thread, not whether 8,000 rockets or suicide bombers (five years since the last one, by the way) justify humiliating innocent travelers.
I have friends who have been in Syrian prisons for speaking out against the government, though thankfully none has died there.
Mary, I would not say that Syria has a bad government. As dictatorships go it is pretty progressive in a number of ways, has some very good programs to move the country forward socially, and make it increasingly self-sustaining economically. Bashshar Al Asad is a pretty reasonable person, is more interested in diplomacy than conflict, and has made a number of serious overtures toward the West, including Israel and the United States. My hope is that Al Asad will be able to develop good relations with the West while maintaining Syria’s independence and integrity – in other words, I hope Asad can walk that fine line and build a positive, cooperative relationship without becoming yet another client state for the Empire.
Overall Syrian opinion of Bashshar is more positive than negative. He is certainly a big improvement over is father, though he still has the regime to deal with, so does not have absolute power to do what he wants.
Sorry, Shirin, I disagree. I would ask you to read reports by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, and then tell me Syria does not have a bad government. The people are wonderful, but Assad is as much a monster as his father was.
Mary, Bashshar is not as much a monster as his father was at all. He is quite different. One of the most common criticisms I have heard of him from Syrians is that he is weak, which is not something that could be said of his father. And one of the ways he is seen as weak is that he fails to stand up to the regime in may respects Syrians find important. On the other hand, Syrians have seen improvements in a number of areas of life since Bashshar took power. He is in general in favor of modernity and in opening the country to the rest of the world. He has made some visible improvements in maintenance of physical infrasctructure. He has opened up internet access tremendously since he took power, though it is still under government control (one can easily get around those government controls if one knows how, as most people who want to do know). In terms of foreign policy he is very far from what his father was.
I am not suggesting at all that there are not serious human rights problems in Syria. That would be foolish. Syria is still governed by a dictatorship, and dictatorships tend to be brutal toward citizens who threaten the regime. That is not acceptable by any means, but it comes with the territory, and compared to many other dictators Bashshar Al Asad is overall one of the less bad ones.
I guess whether you call Syria’s government a bad one or not depends on your frame of reference. If you are comparing to some absolute standard that is one thing. On the other hand, compared to Egypt’s government, for example, some might even say Syria’s government is, overall, fairly OK, and there is no question that it is less bad than it was under Hafiz Al Asad, or than it would have been had Basil survived to take over.
Thank you Shirin, your response is both clarifying and intelligent, and yes, I do have to agree with you that Syria’s government is much less tyrannical than Egypt’s. I also have friends in Egypt, and they are frustrated with the fact that the US props up the Mubarak regime, which cooperates in keeping the blockade intact at the Rafah crossing and now, thanks to George W. Bush, is installing a steel barrier to supposedly stop smuggling into Gaza.
Syria, on the other hand, has done nothing to the Gazans.
Not only much less tyrannical, but does much more to advance the country, its economy, and provide services to the people. That is partly thanks to the Ba`th party being in power. Even the “evil Ba`th” have an upside. The standard of living for most Syrians is still far from that of Europe, but it is worlds better than Egypt where poverty is terribly deep and widespread. You see more beggars in a typical American city than you do in Syria. And cities in Syria are much, much cleaner, and generally in better repair, though most of the city is still dominated by those ugly, blocky concrete buildings you see all over the ME, and big ugly satellite dishes everywhere ruining the landscape. HATE them!
But we are way off topic now, so I won’t go on.
@naftali,
some facts you left out:
-israel didn’t exist 60 years ago
-it exists today in fear and with constant military violence and civilian unrest, because it’s an occupying force that has illegally stayed in a land where they are not wanted.
-the mission of zionism, israel’s dominant ideology is to create a purely jewish state by any means necessary (meaning eliminate the christian and muslim arabs)
-this is inherently racist, unless you do this in siberia or on the moon, or some other place where their really are not people.
-israel, and every occupier, colonizer, violent, inhumane, state (including my own country) that has purposefully subjected the natives of a land to torture, indiscriminate killing by excedingly violent means (as warning to the others), dehumanization, radicalization, humiliation until the people deny themselves respect or compassion, has paid the minimal price of those people’s vengeance or more. and they were not the least bit surprised.
i really dislike people like you, natfali, because you seem so dim when you say the sort of things you’ve said above. israel doesn’t give a fuck about you, naftali. colonization has nothing to do with you or making you feel secure. israeli’s probably feel the least secure of any people on earth. i would too, if i was living in this part of their history…
“unless you do this in siberia or on the moon, or some other place where their really are not people.
Can’t let you get by with this! There ARE people in Siberia, and have been for thousands of years :o}
If Amerikkka and Israel are so horrible to travel to, then dont travel there. Its that simple
Oh, don’t you worry. This story has me convinced to stay away from Israel. If Lily Sussman’s experience is any indication, if I tried to get into the country they’d shoot more than my laptop. I not only have Arabic keyboard stickers (horrors!), I have actual Arabic documents and spreadsheets in Arabic on my hard drive, and I’d most likely have some Arabic magazines and/or books with me, too, and nothing but Arabic stuff on my iPod, including such dangerous songs as Fairuz’s Al Quds Al Atiqa, and some recordings of works of Ghassan Kanafani and others, including, of course, Mahmoud Darweesh. And I have quite a bit of my own writing on Israel and Palestine, in English, not to mention lots of actually balanced articles about Hamas and Hezballah, and tons of e-mail correspondence and IM’s with friends in Gaza and the West Bank. As for photographs, I have literally thousands of photographs from places like Egypt, Pakistan, Oman, Syria, Lebanon (including some taken in the heart of Hezballah land), and so on and so on. And in my suitcases would no doubt be some personal items I have bought in Arab countries. Oh – and then there is the image on my desktop – a photograph of a little Palestinian kid standing in front of an Israeli tank with his hand cocked back ready to throw a stone at it. And then, of course, there is the little issue of the Arabic name on my passport and the fact that it is filled with stamps and visas from Arab and Muslim countries.
Based on Lily’s experience I’d be lucky to leave the airport alive.
I have the Hamas charter and a photo of one of my friends posing with Ismail Haniyeh, also a copy of the Goldstone Report and a portrait of Sheikh Yusuf al Qaradawi on my computer. I’d be lucky if they only shot my computer.
Well, I’m off to finish the wonderful book United in Hate: The Left’s Romance with Tyranny and Terror by Jamie Glazov. Its been entertaining to find out how benevolent the Syrian and Pakistani societies are, compared to us mean Israelis. Who knew that Assads wife was the Islamic world Jackie Kennedy?
Frankly, I’ll take the versions put forth by Nonie Darwish, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Brigitte Gabriel than what Shirin has to say.
I read that book. It’s a very neocon-intensive, Islamophobic little manual of narrow-mindedness. It also has nothing to do with the subject of this blog.
And it figures that someone like you would find value in the words of the likes of Darwish, Hirsi Ali and Gabriel.
With people like you living in Israel, no wonder there is no peace.
Mary, you must have an incredibly strong stomach. The title alone is more than enough for me. I can’t imagine myself getting through the whole book!
Would you believe that the book was recommended to me by a Zionist? I swear to you that it’s true. Jamie Glazov, the author, seems to be obsessed with Islamic terrorism. I didn’t quite finish the book; it’s not well written, and it’s horribly slanted and bigoted. The neocons loved it, of course, because it depicts good people such as Jimmy Carter has reckless fools who love to cozy up to terrorists for the thrill it gives them. It’s right up there with Robert Spencer’s rubbish.
Finished the book last night, quite good and oh so true. Leftists idolizing tyrants and their regimes such as Stalin, Mao, Castro, leaders of North Vietnam, Nicaragua, and then Arafat and his successors Hamas and Hizbollah. Leftists marching hand in hand with totalitarians, who would actually behead them right after the Jews.
It even has a section on so-called feminists from the left and their denial of the utter brutality towards women by the Taliban. Shirin will probably claim that Mullah Omar’s wife/wives wear stunning burqas.
Next on my Kindle is The Israel Test by George Gilder
Naftali, read my comment rules & do so carefully. What you are doing violates them. As hard as it may be for you to believe this no one here cares a crap about what neocon anti jihadist drivel you’re reading. And this blog & the threads are not Amazon ads for that tripe. So don’t abuse the threads or my hospitality in such a way again. If you want to write book reports for yr crowd do it on yr own dime at yr own Amazon acct. Got that?
Maybe you should read Alan Hart’s excellent book, “Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews.” Mr. Hart’s personal experiences as a middle east correspondent as well has his impeccable research make for a very educational reading experience.
Naftali, I am sure your reading list is quite a fascinating subject, but it is not the subject of this discussion. Given your expertise on Israeli security procedures, it is curious that you have chosen to talk about this rather than to address relevant questions. I would like to hear you explain how shooting three holes in a laptop, then handing it back to the owner, hard drive intact, and sending her on her way is an effective method for disarming a potential laptop bomb.
What a worderful book title, that’s got to be up there with Jonah Goldberg’s ‘Liberal Fascism’, who knew that FDR belonged in the dock alongside Hilter and Mussolini? While your book sounds awfully deep and profound, Naftali, I think I’ll abjure and cozy up with my well-worn copy of ‘My Pet Goat’…
Excuse the two obvious spelling mistakes above (I blame the keyboard!!). I would correct them, but the juxtaposition of the corrected words would be just too creepy…
Thank you for yr frankness. Now we know that not only are you a former Shin Bet agent, but a follower of that smutty discipline otherwise known as far-right anti-jihadism. What I’d like to know is did you have such radical right wing politics before you entered the intelligence services or did you absorbs those ideas while serving there?
Yes, Naftali, I am sure the lies of Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel, and the others who have leapt so eagerly on the anti-Islam fame-and-money-train are far, far more appealing to you. Enjoy being eaten up by hatred.
Shirin, this person is a pure hasbarat, possibly paid to troll blogs such as this one. He/she has all the earmarks of a hasbarat, just as a couple of other people who have visited Richard’s blog within the past week alone. You see clearly how they begin to change the subject and then make personal attacks on other commenters. This one is particularly obnoxious, which has made it a very amusing experience. I see Richard just left it to us to deal with this hasbarat creature, and we got the job done.
I can hardly wait to start discussing Israeli “organ harvesting” with these people.
As always, the answer can be found on Oprah
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/oprah.suspicious.package.2.1109148.html
Naftali, I am sure your reading list is quite a fascinating subject, but it is not the subject of this discussion. Given your expertise on Israeli security procedures, it is curious that you have chosen to talk about this rather than to address relevant questions. I would like to hear you explain how shooting three holes in a laptop, then handing it back to the owner, hard drive intact, and sending her on her way is an effective method for disarming a potential laptop bomb.
That is not even worthy of a “nice try, Naftali, but…”.
Once again, I am shocked that someone with your self-proclaimed expertise is so completely without a clue of the bare basics here. In fact, there is so much amiss with your disastrous attempt at an analogy that one hardly knows where to begin, or end.
It is beyond shocking that someone with your self-proclaimed expertise and experience does not understand the difference between a backpack with wires coming out of it found in a TV studio flowerbed where some anonymous person dropped it, and a laptop carried openly by an easily-identified air passenger. It is particularly shocking given that I have already explained the difference to you on this very page. Hint: One fits the definition of a “suspicious package”, the other does not. I will leave it to you to guess which is which.
It is, if possible, even more shocking that you do not understand the difference between blowing up an unattended package with unknown contents, then disposing of it securely, and shooting three bullet holes in a passenger’s laptop computer, then handing it back to the owner and sending her on her way laptop (and intact hard drive) in hand.
OK, so let’s try this again, Naftali. How does taking someone’s laptop from her, shooting three holes in it, then handing it back to her, hard drive intact, and sending her on her way constitute an effective way to ensure the security of the Israeli public?
Interesting that you use the term Hasbarat, since the Nazis and anti-semites for generations referred to us as rats. But, you say, some of our best friends are Jews. We prefer to call them Ghetto Jews when in polite society.
Whats this I see, disagreement between Mary and Shirin? Mary, Assads wife is well dressed and her husband, according to Shirin “is a pretty reasonable person” How can you argue with that?
Perhaps someone should draw to your attention your rude commentaries also violate the terms of use agreement for this blog. I will leave that to Mr. Silverstein to deal with.
You are a true hasbarat, naftali. The pattern fits you well. You come to a comment thread, attempt to make segueways into introducing your version of pro-Zionist history into the discussion, and when it fails, you resort to personal attacks, taunting and insults. The more you post comments, the more clear of an example you are.
My discussion with Shirin does not involve you, but since you have already butted in, you must take note that I did not insult her by stating a contrary opinion.
You really should also learn that if you are responding to a person’s comment and you wish to quote that person, put their quote at the top of your response, not at the bottom. Otherwise your entire response makes no sense whatoever.
Richard also uses the term “hasbarat” which has nothing to do with the animal. If I wished to call you a rat, I would use the word “rat.”
Perhaps someone should draw to your attention your rude commentaries also violate the terms of use agreement for this blog. I will leave that to Mr. Silverstein to deal with.
You are a true hasbarat, naftali. The pattern fits you well. You come to a comment thread, attempt to make segueways into introducing your version of pro-Zionist history into the discussion, and when it fails, you resort to personal attacks, taunting and insults. The more you post comments, the more clear of an example you are.
My discussion with Shirin does not involve you, but since you have already butted in, you must take note that I did not insult her by stating a contrary opinion.
You really should also learn that if you are responding to a person’s comment and you wish to quote that person, put their quote at the top of your response, not at the bottom. Otherwise your entire response makes no sense whatoever.
Richard also uses the term “hasbarat” which has nothing to do with the animal. If I wished to call you a rat, I would use the word “rat.”
Mary,
The last person in my family to kowtow to anti-semites was my late mother who survived Auschwitz when her extended family didn’t. We took enough shit for years, no more. Sure, there are still ghetto jews who are desperate to find favor with and not upset non-Jews, but I could give a rats ass. Today, we Jews fight, and fight hard. Personally, I would kneecap that Lily Sussman and her kind, and go have a juicy burger afterwards. Same goes for any enemy of Israel in which I include the ghetto jewish collaborators.
There, Richard can now ban me, as he usually does those who disagree with him and his posters.
Give me a break. Do you think your family has a monopoly on suffering? And what does that have to do with, shall we say, harassing innocent tourists and shooting their laptops?
When I was a little girl a lady lived next door to my grandmother who had survived Belsen. She was so frail and distraught that we were instructed not to scream while playing in my grandmother’s yard because it reminded this poor lady of the screams she heard while in that foul and indescribably evil place.
Stop fighting ghosts, naftali. That’s all they are now. Israel is not under any existential threat and never has been. You have no right to think you can exist in this world and do as you damn well please, regardless of your past. You also need to let go of the hate you feel towards the people whose land you stole and whom you continue to persecute and degrade to this day. When you do that, and become a good neighbor instead of the neighborhood bully, you will have peace.
I do not accept the Holocaust as a license for Zionists to violate human rights, steal land and commit aggressive actions against others. Stop playing on the world’s pity, it is not working anymore. Stop acting like victims and stop acting like the very same people who persecuted you.
Israel isn’t under any existential threat??? Really? No one wants to wipe Israel off the map? That hasn’t actually been declared before? I must have dreamed it all.
I suppose those non existent Iranian nuclear bombs are an existential threat to Israel. Please. Don’t expect us to share in yr hallucinations.
“Israel isn’t under any existential threat??? Really? No one wants to wipe Israel off the map? That hasn’t actually been declared before? I must have dreamed it all.”
No, it has not been declared before, despite the all-out effort on the part of hasbarists and their spokespersons in the U.S. government and media to use the Goehring principle to convince the public.
And yes, Israel IS under an existential threat. A purely internal one. Israel is its own worst enemy.
All very interesting, Naftali. Now, please answer my question. Based on your expertise in the field of security how does taking someone’s laptop from her, shooting three holes in it, then handing it back to her, hard drive intact, and sending her on her way constitute an effective way to ensure the security of Jews?
You’ve gotten yr wish & are now banned. You have advocated violence & that is one of the cardinal rules of this blog. No one does that even in a figurative sense & remains here. But when you tell this story to your controller or whoever you’re friends with pls. remind them that you wrote here that you’d love to shoot an innocent foreign traveler to Israel & would go out to celebrate afterward.
You’re a brute & I’m sorry to say a suitable representative for a certain class of odious, obnoxious Israeli thug.
Naftali, I see you understand neither German nor Yiddish. “Judenrat” (not “rat”) was the term for the Jewish councils which exploited willing Jewish collaborators during the Holocaust. A little knowledge goes a long way, my friend. You clearly don’t have much.
Mary: I don’t use the term “hasbarat.” I prefer “hasbranik” which has a slight Hebrew/Russian ring to it that echoes other similarly negative Hebrew/Yiddish words like Likudnik, nudnik, etc.
Richard,
I would like to address a couple of points raised here:
The first is whether or not a laptop can be a bomb or can have a bomb in it. The answer is a definite yes. See here: ( http://www.xrayit.com/docs/360V%20Series.pdf
) or here ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31979442/ )
Why do you think people are made to put their laptops through the X-ray machine? If you are the border guard what do you do once you see something suspicious in the X-ray? Maybe call the bomb disposal unit?
The second point is the use of a firearm in disarming a bomb. For an overview see Wikipedia under Bomb Disposal (
in particular under Techniques). Also note the photo of the bomb disposal robot with the shotgun.
Also See here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpreV45c2l8 )
Start at 4:20 if you wish.
Here is a patent for a bomb disposal robot carrying a shotgun ( http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4621562.html )
So I think it is established that shooting at a suspected bomb as means of disarming it is a genuine, generally accepted technique.
Border security guards need to be paranoid. If a border guard is not paranoid they’re not doing their job.
My next point is that the “tightness” of border security should be proportional to the threat. For whatever reason, I want to limit the discussion to the laptop incident, Israel is under threat. I could post references to past incidents (forbidden?) and we can discuss open threats that are made by Iran, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda. At any rate, the bombing threat in Israel is probably higher than any other country in the world. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable that security is very tight and paranoid.
Apparently there is either very little threat on Syria. I’m not aware of anyone openly threatening them and the history of attacks in Syria is significantly less than on Israel. So there border security is lax partly because there’s no threat and possibly because they’re incompetent.
So I think I established strong objective reasons why Israeli security is tight and paranoid.
There is also a history of people being used for transporting materials without their knowledge. Drugs, bombs etc. I can dig some references but unless you’re living in some sort of bubble you know this can happen. In some cases people have been made into “suicide” bombers without their knowledge. From my recollection this practice was common against americans in Lebanon. Trust me (or I can provide references).
There are people in Egypt who have an interest in attacking Israeli’s and have done so in the past (e.g. in Sinai). Again, if you’re not in a bubble you have to acknowledge that. And again, I won’t debate their reasoning right now.
Now comes the tough part, adding 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, if you’re not so good at math you might say 17.
I guess my argument is that this incident is not beyond what a normal person would consider reasonable. It’s not nice and I’m sure it made Lily quite upset (though her hard drive survived and she’ll be compensate, so really no big deal).
There are other incidents that are much clearer abuse and even the Israeli Supreme Court has ordered that border security adjust their procedures after a petition by some of those abused people. This incident however does not appear to be one those cases.
One would hope that people with a sense of integrity and honesty would apologize for twisting the facts around to further their cause. I.e. without bothering to do any research insinuating that laptops can not be bombs, or that using firearms is not a common bomb disposal technique. Pretending no threat exists or saying Israel’s are not bomb disposal experts where in fact they are probably the most experienced in the world. I can provide more references to support my case or you can do your own research.
It’s not that there aren’t any real reasons to criticize Israel (e.g. Naftali’s manners 🙂 ) but criticizing for the wrong reasons basically means losing all credibility.
Respectfully,
Guy
No sooner does Naftali bite the dust than Guy comes to take his place. Do I detect a pattern here?
At any rate, Guy pls. do look over the previous comments in this thread as you’re repeating stale arguments Naftali made which others have put to rest nicely.
There is no evidence whatsoever that any Israeli detected any threat fr. an x ray search or any other. If that had been the case Israel would’ve said so & so avoided the intense embarrassment this incident has caused.
Paranoia & petty revenge (which were the real motives for this incident) serve no useful purpose in border security. They only lead to the kinds of incidents we’re seeing here in which out of control agents wreak personal vengeance on victims who stickers or facial gestures they detest.
This incident IS beyond what a normal person would consider reasonable. That’s why it’s had huge play all over the world media & why you’re here. If this hadn’t caused a huge hasbara deficit for Israel you wouldn’t be here. You can tell yr controller or whoever sent you here that I said that.
Killing her lapto certainly WAS a big deal to her & to Israel’s reputation. Your saying it wasn’t a big deal doesn’t make it so no matter how much you try.
The Supreme Court has outlawed torture but that hasn’t stopped the Border Police & Shin Bet fr. using it. A lot of good it did the victims of the torture.
As for apologizing for twisting the facts. I would think since you’ve spewed nothing but surmises & unprovable claims about this incident you’d want to be the one apologizing. I’m only dealing w. the facts here & so don’t need to do so.
No one btw has said that they suspected Lily’s laptop of being a bomb. Do you have any evidence of this fr. a credible source? And no one has said any bomb disposal expert had anything to do with this incident. Again, do you have any proof there was a bomb squad on the scene?
Pls don’t provide me useless references that are entirely irrelevant to this particular case. I’m interested in real evidence to prove there was any legitimacy to any claim you or Naftali have made concerning what MIGHT HAVE caused suspicion in this case. Real evidence, not Wikipedia references that are irrelevant.
Richard,
Just so we’re absolutely clear here I am speaking for myself, I don’t work for anyone and it is a very rare occurrence indeed that I vocalize publicly or otherwise any support for Israel’s policy. If you wish we can take this offline and I can provide proof of the above.
I think you’re seeing ghosts or acting a bit defensive here. If I may be allowed to use your line of argument: Can you provide evidence from a reliable source that the laptop was destroyed due to paranoia and petty revenge as you put it? Why are those not surmises and unprovable claims?
I am not claiming I know why the laptop was destroyed. I was just laying out a reasonable argument to support one possibility which in my opinion is a lot more likely than what you are describing.
If I was a border guard and wanted to revenge a smirk would I take the persons computer and shoot it with holes? It makes no sense at any level. There are many other less obvious ways the border guard could have revenged the smirk. Perhaps we can have a reliable source produce the border guard guidelines where it says if someone smirks shoot their laptop.
Do you agree that shooting objects suspected of containing explosives is a valid technique for disarming them? Yes, or no? If you think it is not then is it OK for me to reply with additional references to support that fact that it is indeed a valid technique? This has nothing whatsoever to do with *Israel* but it does apply to this case and to being truthful.
I’m afraid it’s yr own generalization that makes no sense. Actually, this type of thoughtless, impulsive act makes perfect sense to me knowing what I know about the performance of Border Police. These are 18 yr old kids used to brooking no opposition fr. anyone under their thumb. An uppity western tourist w. an attitude would drive this poor kid crazy & petty revenge would be the first thing he would think of.
As for generalizing about techniques for disabling bombs that have nothing to do with this particular incident–no, I’m not interested in hearing more on this subject. If you can prove that this is why they shot the laptop & produce evidence that they had reason to suspect this then I might change my mind. But as it is now, yr theorizing is off topic.
Richard,
I realize you will not accept this as evidence but here is what I stumbled on in my search for the truth of the matter. I assume you read Hebrew.
http://rotter.name/nor/chat/14760.shtml#3
To summarize this is a person claiming to work in the border crossing security and who is also claiming to have been present in this very incident. He is posting in Hebrew answering other Israeli’s i.e. this is not some “hasbara” thing.
He says:
1. There are very clear procedures about how these things are handled. One can’t just shoot laptops for the fun of it.
2. The laptop was shot by a bomb disposal robot operated by a bomb disposal expert.
3. There were security considerations for “blowing up” the laptop but he can not expand on those for “obvious” reasons.
4. He personally extracted the hard drive from Lily’s computer and handed it to her undamaged.
Now here’s my challenge to you Richard. The last statement could only have been known by a person who was actually on site since Lily did not say anything about it. Get in touch with Lily and see if you can verify it?
I’m not sure whether or not I believe this person but it’s the only thread I’ve got.
I’ll do so in a few days. I’m tied up with something important & will do so when I’m free.
I’d be curious to discover whether what this guy claims can be verified by her.
“The last statement could only have been known by a person who was actually on site since Lily did not say anything about it.”
The last statement is at variance with Lily’s description on her blog. She does not say that the border police extracted her hard drive, she said “we were able to extract the hard drive”. It is not clear who “we” might be, but it doesn’t sound at all as if it was a generous gesture by the border police.
In any case, the explanations make no sense at all. And you are right, what you presented is not evidence of anything.
“this incident is not beyond what a normal person would consider reasonable.”
Yeah, I guess that’s why nearly everyone who hears the story finds it so outrageous.
And Guy, just out of curiosity, can you find a Wikipedia article claiming that it is normal and reasonable security procedure to shoot holes in an object that could contain explosives, and then return it to its owner and allow them to carry it into the country? That would be most enlightening.
As I said before: I’d also like to know how bombs can only be in the left side of a laptop.
I doubt that anything weird was seen in Lily’s laptop as it passed through the X ray machine. And I think the fact that they shot it full of holes and returned it to her was a stunt used to frighten other travelers and intimidate them, much in the same way the Israelis pull similar stunts. It was a psychological game, and returning the destroyed equipment to her was an essential part of it.
Most people who hear the story have no clue as to what is happening in the middle east so why would should their reactions be important?
The only reason I can imagine is that once satisfied that object is not a bomb it can be returned to its owner. I fail to see the value of this as a stunt or scare tactics. But what do I know.
You fail to see the value of it? One of the purposes of such stunts is to instill a feeling of unease and fear among travelers, or else why return the laptop to its owner, and why make this stunt a public occurrence? You who are so paranoid about shoe bombers, Japanese shooters, and other assorted “terrorists” with Arabic stickers on their keyboards and “Fuck Israel” photos on their hard drives, how do you expect us to put it past you to blast holes in a young woman’s laptop after she “smirks” at you and fails to recognize Jewish holidays? And then one of you wingnuts says they’d kneecap her and go for a nice juicy burger?
Wow. Just wow.
Can we stop with this “You” business?
*I* am not paranoid about shoe bombers, Japanese shooters or Arabic stickers. This is just getting weirder every minute.
Why would Israel want to instill fear and unease in visitors? Ah, because they don’t know the Jewish holidays. That makes *perfect* sense.
Mary, the thing is we don”t answer to you. Who the hell are you to tell us we “need to do this and we need to do that” The world told us for centuries what we should do. Now we decide on our own.
Who the hell are you to tell Israelis whether they should feel threatened or not? I and they do feel that way, but hey, YOU know better than us what we should feel and how we should protect ourselves. You know better than our security how passengers should be handled, and how what we think might be suspicious and what we should do about it.
Your nonsense about stolen land etc works with naive fellow travelers of yours, not me.
Also, most Israelis, including myself, supported Cast Lead and felt that Israel did not go far enough.
That’s exactly your problem, naftali. Israel won’t listen to anyone whether it comes to either building illegal settlements or stealing organs from dead Palestinians.
You supported Cast Lead and felt Israel did not go far enough? I guess you would feel that way because there were survivors, and you were hoping you would kill more women and kids, right?
You’re way off topic here. Go and sell your hasbara somewhere else. You are nothing more than a Zionist parrot squawking the same old nonsense.
Mary,
At first when I read the exchange I felt Naftali was way out of line. However, here you are propagating a blood libel. Shame on you.
Guy
Guy: Accusing anyone of a blood libel is a serious violation of my comment rules. If you do this again, you may go the way of Naftali.
I apologize for violating the rules. I still think Mary’s comment was way, way, — way — out of line, not relevant to the discussion.
I don’t object to readers disagreeing w. ea. other. But a claim of “blood libel” went over the line I think.
I said nothing about blood libel but merely referred to an item in the news. This bothers you, but naftali’s remark about happily kneecapping a young tourist does not?
I do not take kindly to cheap shots by Zionists trying to indiscriminately label people who oppose their views as anti-Semites, and I see no reason to observe even a token amount of courtesy when addressing them.
None of you has answered Shirin’s original question; why don’t you answer it instead of engaging in the cheap shots?
Naftali’s comment bothered me a lot. I think he’s an idiot.
I don’t think he would actually harm an innocent tourist but he’s still an idiot. He did give some valuable information about how Israeli security operates which does have relevance and he did manage to provoke other people in interesting ways. The only positive thing I can say is that at least he speaks his mind.
Your comment bothered me a lot more. I don’t see it as referring to an item on the news.
I didn’t follow this thread from the beginning and Shirin has been asking a lot of question. Ask again and I’ll give you my honest opinion.
I did not “propagate a blood libel.” Shame on you.
I should also tell you that since Israel accepts more than $3 Billion a year in aid from the US, that is why we have the right to tell you what we think. You take my money, you better damn well listen to what I have to say. If you don’t like it, tell your government to stop sucking up our money and using it to kill Palestinians.
Shirin says:
December 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Not only much less tyrannical, but does much more to advance the country, its economy, and provide services to the people. That is partly thanks to the Ba`th party being in power. Even the “evil Ba`th” have an upside. The standard of living for most Syrians is still far from that of Europe, but it is worlds better than Egypt where poverty is terribly deep and widespread. You see more beggars in a typical American city than you do in Syria. And cities in Syria are much, much cleaner, and generally in better repair, though most of the city is still dominated by those ugly, blocky concrete buildings you see all over the ME, and big ugly satellite dishes everywhere ruining the landscape. HATE them!
But we are way off topic now, so I won’t go on.
Shirin,
Does he make the trains run on time too? A good dictator always makes the trains run on time.
Naftali, the topic here is not Syria, or dictators, or trains. We are talking about Israeli security taking a passenger’s laptop, shooting holes in it, leaving the hard drive intact, then handing it back to her and sending her on her way. You introduced yourself as someone experienced and knowledgeable about Israeli security practices and the reasoning behind them. You offered to help us understand this incident from the point of view of Israeli security, yet when asked one very, very simple question you either obfuscate or change the subject. Why is it that you cannot explain to us how taking someone’s laptop from her, shooting three holes in it, then handing it back to her, hard drive intact, and sending her on her way constitutes an effective way to ensure the security of Israelis?
Good question, and it has not been answered.
Naftali –
How can taking a girl’s laptop away from her, shooting it and then returning it to her, make life safer for Israelis???
ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!!
PS Since I ride the trains in Syria on a pretty regular basis (trains are the greenest way to travel, by the way), I can say that the trains do seem to run more or less on time. The trains are also quite pleasant, and very safe, especially since they invested in new trains a few years ago.
Naftali, the topic here is not Syria, or dictators, or trains. We are talking about Israeli security taking a passenger’s laptop, shooting holes in it, leaving the hard drive intact, then handing it back to her and sending her on her way. You introduced yourself as someone experienced and knowledgeable about Israeli security practices and the reasoning behind them. You offered to help us understand this incident from the point of view of Israeli security, yet when asked one very, very simple question you either obfuscate or change the subject. Why is it that you cannot explain to us how taking someone’s laptop from her, shooting three holes in it, then handing it back to her, hard drive intact, and sending her on her way constitutes an effective way to ensure the security of Israelis?
Mary and Shirin
How many times does it take till you figure it out. Everyone knowns that Israeli security profiles passengers, and rightly so. Not simply because passenger X may be a suspect but that they might be an unknown element in a terror plot. Just so you know, the terrorists probe the system all the time to test for weaknesses. She raised red flags, certainly would have raised them for me. So, they check all her bags carefully. The laptop is taken to be investigated by other means, but since the owner is already suspect, its taken to a location where the tests can be done remotely in case something goes off. This was the case even in my time with suspicious passengers and their belongings. Clearly in her case, something set the system off to the point where they found it prudent to shoot it. Its done in order to set off any detonators that might be in the system. Israel is not the only one that does this.
Do you remember Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber? He travelled to Israel probing the system. He was checked very carefully and so realized that he was not going to be able to sneak his explosive shoes into Israel. Instead that coward tried to blow up a plane full of random people, and it was only a miracle that he did not accomplish his task. He was by the way, a convert to Islam, and said that Islam had saved his life and shown him the right way. Yes, blow up 350 people in the name of Allah!
I know that regardless of what I say or the justification of the actions of the Security service, Israel to you all as a whole is a pariah, so it doesn’t really matter.
All you have done here in this comment is reinforce the previous impression, that you and Israel are paranoid fearmongerers who are obsessed with imaginary threats.
And you have proven yourself to be a racist bigot who spreads anti-Arab hate.
You have no information of any value to add to this discussion.
Oh yeah. They found it prudent to shoot it, and then they found it prudent not to dispose of it securely, but to hand it back to her so she could carry that potentially dangerous weapon with her to Jerusalem. And oddly enough, even though they found her and her laptop of sufficient concern to shoot holes in it, they allowed her into the country.
Naftali is a complete phony. I don’t believe he ever worked for Shin Bet. Maybe he worked for El Al for a couple of years as a counter clerk, or perhaps a baggage handler, but he doesn’t even seem to understand Security 101.
Well, realizing they made a mistake, they gave it back to her so she could have the original serial number plate etc. to make an insurance claim, at the very least. It’s easier to have something replaced by the Israeli govt. if it’s damaged by mistake if you have it in your possession, and there IS a claims dept. etc. set up to handle this. And, well, the scenario Naftali depicts is how stuff gets shot up all the time. She was red-flagged for a lot of good reasons, and the laptop was shot because it somehow triggered a lot of red-flags on its own. The fact is that her profile fits that of Anne Marie Murphy, who was carrying a bomb she didn’t know about, that 3rd country nationals have brought in bombs from Gaza via Egypt before, and that Israel doesn’t have enough savoir-faire to neutralize laptops remotely without destroying them, even when that would mean p.r. benefits.
Pay attention all hasbarists. This will be the last comment involving unsupported speculation of what was wrong with Lily Sussman & her laptop. You are free to report information fr. direct sources or reliable media sources. Otherwise, don’t. One of my comment rules notes that unsupported claims are unwelcome here. Heed this or yr comment privileges may be constrained.
You don’t know what Lily Sussman’s profile was since you weren’t there & no such information was reported in the media. Nice try though.
I have been through the Taba, Aqaba, Allenby and Jordan Valley crossings many more times than you have, Richard, and I cannot believe the action was totally gratuitous, even given the touristy nature of the Taba crossing and the younger personnel stationed there in response to that. Do you know how much clearance you need to get from up the line to discharge a firearm at a suspected bomb? A lot! And from what she’s disclosed, they THOUGHT she was another Anne Mary Murphy, in all probability. Arabic materials, possible Egyptian boyfriend, etc. I’ve come through that crossing with learning materials in both Arabic and Hebrew and they made me sit until someone could read the Arabic and vet it, and I’m ISRAELI.
I don’t think you want a free & fair exchange on this blog and I’m done offering my opinion in areas of my expertise. I think you like declaring “victory” no matter what, although I do hope Lilly Sussman got a little more exposure to Israel that helped her with her preconceived notions.
I think she got plenty of exposure to “Israel” in her little episode in Taba. She actually expressed hope that the rest of her stay would present a different vision of Israel. I hope so too. But it certainly wouldn’t have worked out that way if the only Israelis she met were Naftali, Guy & Eurosabra
I specifically told you yesterday that you were done planting unsupported claims or inferences about this incident. And you’ve specifically ignored me. So you’ve lost yr comment privileges for a wk. Next time, I hope you will believe me when I tell you to stop doing something that violates my comment rules.
If you weren’t Israeli your study materials would’ve sported a few lovely bullet holes in them likely!
Why is it when the hasbarists mob a thread & try to argue everyone else down & fail & get frustrated by this that they resort to such crybaby tactics: “you don’t really want a free & fair exchange of views here” when they know that’s precisely why they’re commenting here & why I’m allowing them to do so. All I can say to their displeasure is “I never promised you a rose garden (sorry for revealing my age).” In other words, there are thousands of other blogs that may provide for freer & fairer exchange of views (to their mind) & they’re welcome to deplane & head over to hasbara central, wherever that might be.
Right. They couldn’t really tell whether her computer contained explosives BEFORE they shot it up, but afterward they were so certain it was perfectly OK that they felt just fine giving it back to her and sending her on her way to Jerusalem. Sure. THAT makes sense.
These trolls are usually phonies. I found it questionable from the start that out of the blue, naftali shows up on this thread and just happens to have been a former Shin Bet officer. Baloney. It also didn’t take long to peel away the veneer and find the nasty little anti-Arab bigot underneath, and the last straw was the comment about knee-capping Lily Sussman, showing this person to be another moonbat rightwing Likudnik.
“He was by the way, a convert to Islam, and said that Islam had saved his life and shown him the right way. Yes, blow up 350 people in the name of Allah!”
That does it, Guy. And you accuse me of “propagating a blood libel” while you yourself make this bigoted, trashy remark. Stay classy.
I didn’t make the quoted comment.
Mary,
At first when I read the exchange I felt Naftali was way out of line. However, here you are propagating a blood libel. Shame on you.
Guy
Yes you did, “Guy,” if that is your name.
But you didn’t quote that, here is what you quoted:
“He was by the way, a convert to Islam, and said that Islam had saved his life and shown him the right way. Yes, blow up 350 people in the name of Allah!”
So you were attributing this quote to me. Incorrectly. Bad.
Can you produce my other “bigoted, trashy” remark?
My bad. It was Naftali, and I apologize for attributing the quote to you. That’s what I get for multitasking when I should be paying attention to what I’m doing.
I will repeat that I have no interest in that ridiculous “blood libel” issue and will tell you that purposely stay oblivious to such nonsense. It is currently in the news, a quite damning story about organ theft in Israel, in fact, and it has also come to light that not only Palestinian organs were stolen, but also Jewish Israeli ones, which blows the whole blood libel thing out of the water.
No more comments from me today. I’m over my limit and I do not want to risk having Richard kick me off the thread.
Yes, that was Naftali, not Guy. We shouldn’t lump people into one category just because they appear to have some similar views. Everyone is diff. & what one person says isn’t necessarily what another believes.
Hear hear
Guy
Bravo Richard
This is the first comment by you that I have read in this thread so far where you don t “lump” all people who are at variance with your opinion into one “bag”.
Thank you
You know, I’d like to care about Lily and her computer, and in a normal world, I could. But the world of this site is one where Zionist is a dirty word, Israel is simply the worst place on earth, and Israelis are the worst people on earth, unless, perhaps, they agree themselves with the three preceeding statements. I care more than anything in the world for the well-being of the Jews and the peace and future of Israel. I care more about that than about Lily’s laptop. Syrians, Pakistanis, Palestinians, etc, who feel this way about their own countries are patriots. Jews who feel this way are zenophobes. OK, I’ve got it. Gey gezinterheit. I don’t care.
Which is interesting considering that I consider myself a progressive ZIonist. Care to try yr luck again?
Strike 2. I’ve lived & studied in Israel and the reason I write this blog is because I actually care about Israelis. But nice try again.
Which tells us quite a bit about what you don’t care a whit about…
I wish it were true. Then you wouldn’t have wasted yr own time & ours reading this.
“I consider myself a progressive ZIonist”
But that doesn’t make you one. You can consider yourself anything you like, but that doesn’t make it true. I see no sign of it here.
“I actually care about Israelis.”
Again, I see no sign of it here.
“Which tells us quite a bit about what you don’t care a whit about…”
No, it tells you that I love my people. This is considered a virtue for Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians, and Palestinians here. On this site, only Jews are expected to trash their own people, and to do so vitriolically, in order to be considered acceptably progressive. I’m a pretty far-left liberal, and I also love my own people. People such as yourself, Mary and Shirin give every sign of thinking that these things are mutually exclusive. They’re not.
“Then you wouldn’t have wasted yr own time & ours reading this.”
You say this sort of thing frequently, Richard. You seem to use it with anyone who disagrees with you. It’s easy to be rough and tough in the blogosphere, Richard, especially when it’s your blog. It’s unpleasant to do so, and while not exactly cowardly, it certainly isn’t brave.
It’s a constant bone of contention as to whether one can fiercely oppose the Israeli government and yet not be anti-Israel or anti-Jewish. Of course, one can. But this site, and others like it, go way beyond that. This is a site where the terms “Zionist” and “anti-Jihadist” are used as bitter insults. Almost half of the world’s Jews live in Israel. If current demographic trends continue, the majority will live there soon enough. The overwhelming majority of both Israeli and Diaspora Jews consider themselves to be both Zionist and anti-Jihadist; the latter is a no-brainer. So, in spite of the intellectual legerdemain you all employ, you can’t, in practical terms, be fiercely anti-Zionist, pro-jihadist, and anti-Israel and not be against the Jewish people, 90% of whom love Israel, are Zionist, and are anti-Jihadist. To maintain otherwise is just an intellectual trick. You’re my enemies, and you’re the enemies of the majority of the Jewish people, regardless of what’s in your hearts.
“…the only real threat to the peace and future of Israel comes from Jews in Israel and elsewhere.”
Shirin, if you really believe that, I’m frightened for your children. And mine.
I really couldn’t care less about whether you accept my own self-definition. The fact that you don’t immediately points to you as a hasbarist & someone whose views cannot be trusted. The fact that you cannot find signs in this blog that I care for Israel only indicates that either you can’t read, refuse to, or don’t understand what you do read. The problem for you is that there is only one kind of legitimate expression of love of Israel–the love it or leave it, Israel-First mentality, which is certainly not what I follow.
You wouldn’t know what a progressive Zionist was if you ran into an entire convention of them at J Street. Oh but I forgot for people like you J Streeters are traitors to the Jewish race or something like that. Or do I have yr views wrong by a millimeter or so?
No, wrong. There is no virtue in anyone of any nationality who loves their own only to hate the other, which pretty much characterizes people like you.
Another Israel-First fallacy: that Jews=Israelis. First, I don’t criticize Jews unless they are Jews who harbor noxious hardline Israeli nationalist politics (like you). Second, I don’t criticize Israelis unless they express such odious racist views. Third, I have written scores of blog posts representing Israel & Israelis at their best. But unfortunately for you the one I feature here for praise are not the ones you hang out w. because while they love their own people they don’t hate sufficiently for yr taste their Arab neighbors.
Actually, I don’t. But when people like you attempt snappy one-liners I don’t let you get away w. snark.
False again. Many here disagree w. me. Some do so respectfully & are never treated w. disrespect in return. If you can’t argue w. respect you won’t get any in return. And yes, I have written that all too often unfortunately, but only to those who feel that their superior intellect, knowledge & mastery of facts & history allows them to treat those they disagree with with disdain. Show disdain you’ll get it in return.
That’s a meaningless non sequitur. My rhetorical style has nothing to do with bravery or its opposite. And you are beside the pt.
Only for people like you. For the rest of the reasonable Jews & Israelis in the world this is a settled matter and one can certainly (& SHOULD) oppose bad Israel policy and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that entitles you or anyone to label this anti-Israel and certainly not anti-Jewish. And if you do it violates one of my most important comment rules & is absolutely treif.
Now, you’re treading on very dangerous ground.
I dare you to find a single reference written by me here that does this. And if you don’t do so in the next comment you publish here I will consider taking further measures to restrict yr comment privileges. I do NOT allow lying here. I have written here that I am a progressive ZIonist, which would preclude my doing the very thing you claim I have done. Now I challenge you to support your claim. And keep in mind that you may not use phrases including the term “Zionist” in which I make clear that I’m talking about “right wing ZIonists” and such. I do not use the unmodified term “ZIonist” as a pejorative though other readers here have done so.
The overwhelming majority of Jews don’t know what an “anti Jihadist” is nor do they care. You write as if all Jews in the world are Daniel Pipes, David Horowitz, Steve Emerson & yrself, which is a laugh & a half in itself. ANd while the overwhelming majority of Jews may consider themselves either Zionist of sympathetic to ZIonism, the overwhelming majority would place the issue of “Zionism” quite low on their list of everyday concerns, whether human or Jewish. Sorry to rain on yr Zionism uber-Alles parade, my friend.
What utter meaningless dreck.
First, I’m happy to be your enemy. Second, I’m the enemy of YOUR definition of the Jewish people which is NOT the definition of the “overwhelming majority” of the Jewish people. As for your obliviousness to what’s in my heart, you should also add that you’re oblivious to what’s in my mind & written on the page right in front of yr eyes.
You are banned.
Richard, I think he made the assumption that all commenters here are Jews, specifically Shirin and myself, and so he assumed that all we do is trash Israel (we criticize harshly but do not trash – there is a difference, of course). Maybe he will understand that the dangerous people in any society are not those who are its critics, but its unquestioning loyalists. Discourse is essential in any society; one should have the freedom to disagree without being threatened.
Such people as Eli make for interesting dialogue, but of course they tend to sink into insults and invective, which is unfortunate.
“I care more than anything in the world for the well-being of the Jews and the peace and future of Israel.”
If you really cared about that, then you would be deeply alarmed at the way Jews of Israel are conducting themselves in the world. You would recognize that the only real threat to the peace and future of Israel comes from Jews in Israel and elsewhere.
Israel’s behavior in the public eye has been especially alarming lately. While the Gaza Freedom March delegation was in the area, they chose to drop bombs on Gaza, claiming they were targeting tunnels in the area. Incredibly self-defeating and foolish because now several hundred people from all over the world got a taste of what the Gazans have to live with every day.
I believe one of the operative words here might be hubris. While insisting in some contexts that Israel is a state like all other states and should not be held to what they call a “higher standard”, they behave as if Israel were a state apart and should not ever be held to any standard that can be applied to the rest of the world.
That is actually what they do believe. This hubris, this exceptionalism, extends even to war crimes and those who are accused of them, such as Tzipi Livni, who told the Brits to change their laws so that their courts cannot arrest her. The arrogance of such a request is breathtaking, of course. But we also know Israel has proposed changing the rules of war so as to accommodate their future rampages on civilian Palestinians and eliminate any inconvenience of having to be held accountable to the present quaint and outmoded laws. As George W Bush demonstrated, the way to avoid accountability is to change the laws so that you are no longer violating them.