You've come a long way, Israel baby--welcome gay porno (Lucas Entertainment)
If Tablet Magazine is to be believed, the Jewish world has come a long way baby because the gay porno industry has made the first pornographic film with an all-Israeli/all-Jewish cast. As strange and disturbing as I find this article on many levels, it is this passage which disturbs me most:
This week, Michael Lucas is making what he calls “a bold move to promote Israeli culture and tourism.” His website extols the virtues of a country rich with natural wonders, intriguing museums, liberal politics, and friendly locals. More than a biblical theme park, Lucas’s Israel is a tourist destination, a place where lovely beaches beckon and muscle-bound men have sex with each other.
Lucas—a porn actor and director, and founder of the New York-based gay porn production company Lucas Entertainment—sees his new film Men of Israel as a tool, if you will, to promote tourism, at least among gay men.
Make no mistake, this is not a one-off promotion by an odd-ball Jewish gay pornographer. This is part of an orchestrated hasbara campaign spearheaded by groups like Stand With Us, who promoted Israel during the latter’s Gay Pride Festival as a natural ally of gays around the world. The angle for SWU (and there always IS an angle with groups like this) is to trumpet the alleged homophobia of Palestinian/Arab society compared to the alleged freedom and tolerance of “western” Israel towards a gay lifestyle. Never mind that Israel is less tolerant of gays than the average western country. That matters little for the hasbaraniks of SWU.
Articles like the one in Tablet make clear the danger of choosing such bedfellows for Israel. Remember the last major ‘heartthrob’ Israel embraced? Those evangelicals like John Hagee, who supports a nuclear attack against Iran and claims the Holocaust was a message from God to Jews to become Zionists?
Does anyone in their right mind think that Israel will benefit from a close association with the gay porn industry? And what was the Tablet editor who commissioned this article thinking? This is a newsworthy story? Bizarre, disturbing–yes. But newsworthy? But hey, I’m not complaining. This blog thrives off chronicling the bad judgment of some of my fellow Jews.
Interesting to note that the film has been promoted by those connoisseurs of the gay lifestyle, Jeffrey Goldberg and James Kirchick (who Eric Alterman’s calls Marty Peretz’s “mini-me”). Goldberg takes the typically hasbarist line of comparing Israel’s supposedly tolerant attitude toward gays with the Arab world’s supposedly homophobic approach (I Bet Ahmadinejad Wouldn’t Let This Happen in Iran). This is why Goldberg is the Israeli foreign ministry’s favorite “liberal” (I use the term VERY loosely) Jewish journalist.
Come on man!
We dont live in the dark ages.
If you dont want to get associated with Isreali gay porn – well then dont watch it, dont mention it … Just leave it!
You are looking for things to get offended by – just give it up…
And by the way, Isreali men are so HANDSOME 🙂
I’m not offended by gay porn per se. I AM offended that Israel is using gay porn and the international gay rights movement as part of its hasbara war with the Arab world. That troubles me just as deeply as Israel’s exploitation of Christian evangelicals for the same purpose.
CREEEEEEEPY! Verrrry, verrrry CREEEEEEEEPY!
And there is a sense of desperation these days about the hasbara and its purveyors, isn’t there?
RE: “…sees his new film Men of Israel as a tool, if you will, to promote tourism, at least among gay men”
MY COMMENT: Move over, Palm Springs! (lol)
AMERICA’S “GAY OASIS” – http://www.gaypalmspringsca.com/
PS. Thanks for that totally awesome picture! Those are two of the cutest dudes I’ve seen since “Brokeback Mountain”. That ‘tat’ is absolutely “to die for”! Isn’t that what they call a ‘tribal tattoo’ (tribal, as in Africa)?
Liars, liars, pants on fire!
Anti-gay discourse is openly tolerated in Israel. Shas leader Eli Yishai has determined that gays are “sick people” (see here. In his capacity as the Interior Minister of Israel, he has urged the Prime Minister to cancel the Tel Aviv gay-pride parade in a letter also signed by National Union MK Uri Ariel, United Torah Judaism MK Menachem Eliezer Moses, Tel Aviv council members as well as the city’s chief rabbis; see here.
The fact that gays are not publicly whipped doesn’t erase the reality that hate speech is used against them by prominent politicians and religious leaders. Such incitement would mean the end of a government in any other advanced democracy.
It seems the very existence of gay pride parades is evidence enough that a fruitful gay life is more possible in the state of Israel than in many of it’s neighbors. This alone is a pretty specious argument in favor of Israel’s existence or anything else it does but the extent to which Silverstein is willfully obtuse about this plainly obvious fact. I would say only Turkey has a more thriving gay life in the “region”.
But that’s not saying much now is it? Should we crow because Israel treats gays marginally better than Egypt does? Or Syria? Or Iraq? Is that the yardstick you really wish to use?
And did you even bother to read this comment or seriously attempt to grapple w. it?
If you think LGBT rights in Israel are only marginally better in Israel than in Egypt you’re either completely clueless about Israel or I’m completely clueless about Egypt.
LGBT rights in Israel are better than in most American states and definitely better in the Israeli military than in the American military (unless the don’t ask don’t tell policy has changed). “anti gay discourse” is tolerated in Israel because discourse is tolerated in Israel. People on the left have a hard time accepting that even intolerant people are allowed to have a say.
Give credit where credit is do.
On what basis do you support such a claim? And let’s understand that if you wish to claim that there are conservative states in this country with negative attitudes towards gays, let’s also concede that the entire Orthodox community (at least 20-30% of the entire population) would have similar views of gays. BTW, is there gay marriage in Israel? Didn’t think so. What about inheritance rights for gay partners? Rights of partners to be considered next of kin for medical purposes?
Is there gay marriage in the United States in all 50 states? Didn’t think so. What about inheritance rights for gay partners? Rights of partners to be considered next of kin for medical purposes?
In Israel – “on November 21, 2006, the Supreme Court of Israel ordered the government to recognize same-sex marriages performed abroad.”
Adoption – ” In November 2005, a groundbreaking court decision in Israel ruled that a lesbian spouse could officially adopt a child born to her current partner, by artificial insemination from an anonymous sperm donor”
More on adoption: “On March 10, 2009, the Tel Aviv family court ruled that former Knesset member Uzi Even and his life partner, Amit Kama, can legally adopt their 30-year-old foster son, Yossi”
There is a very big diff. bet. Israel and America’s 50 states. There is no state law in Israel since Israel has no states. So Israeli law is essentially national in nature. So, in effect, if there is no gay marriage in Israel–while there are a number of jurisdictions here (& many more contemplate doing so) recognizing gay marriage–then Israel’s recognition of gay rights is inferior to the U.S. on this pt. since there is no gay marriage in any Israeli jurisdiction. In other words, the U.S. can legislate nationally and state by state. We do not legislate marriage nationally as Israel does. So claiming that because all 50 states do not yet recognize gay marriage that the U.S. is no more advanced than Israel on the subject is bogus.
I am glad that there is gay adoption & gay inheritance in Israel, but there is gay adoption & inheritance here & you claimed that Israeli recognition of gay rights was MORE advanced than in the U.S. So this claim doesn’t really get you anywhere.
The only pt. on which Israel IS superior is in terms of military service. But this single issue, while important, isn’t enough to prove that Israel is superior.
Also it is bogus to narrow your claim to the almost insignificant point that Israel is more advanced that SOME U.S. states. What you should be arguing is the overall quality & status of gay life in the U.S. compared to Israel. Not the overall status of gay life in Israel compared to Utah or Wyoming.
Financial matters (including inheritance):”The Civil Service Commission extends spousal benefits and pensions to the partners of homosexual employees. The Israeli State Attorney’s Office has extended the spousal exemption from property-transfer taxes to same-sex couples. Israel’s attorney general has granted legal recognition to same-sex couples in financial and other business matters. Attorney General Meni Mazuz said the couples will be treated the same as common-law spouses, recognizing them as legal units for tax, real estate, and financial purposes. Mazuz made his decision by refusing to appeal a district court ruling in an inheritance case that recognized the legality of a same-sex union, his office said in a statement.”
Military: “Unlike many other democratic nations, the armed forces of Israel allow service without any distinction based on sexual orientation.[citation needed] Since 1993, homosexuals have been allowed to openly serve in the military, including special units.” (can the US say the same)
Inheritabce: “On December 14, 2004, the Nazareth District Court ruled that same-sex couples have the same rights as married couples in inheritance rights.”
I stand by my assertion that LGBT rights in Israel are better than in most American states.
Israel does not have the luxury of being picky with who it enlists in to the IDF as it needs as many soldiers fighting for the occupation as it can get its hands on. I could say the same for other gay rights in Israel – it makes no sense to discriminate against your own people when you need as many of them as you can get in order to maintain a majority.
And oddly enough this speaks to why Israel can never be both The Jewish State and a democracy. As long as the struggle to maintain a Jewish majority is an imperative, there is something very non-democracy-like going on.
Exactly. Israel is not a democratic state, it is a privilege state. If you are Jewish you are privileged with full rights, if not then you’re a burden – excess baggage – and are treated as such with limited rights.
Read about this latest Israeli gaffe:
Israel Expels African Refugees from Tel Aviv
This past weekend, a couple friends and I helped four Sudanese families move out of Tel Aviv. Leaving Tel Aviv was not their choice – as of the beginning of July, they are no longer allowed to live and work in Israel’s largest urban area.
Most of the African refugee community, which began arriving here [Tel Aviv] after Egyptian police attacked and killed Sudanese refugees protesting in Cairo in late 2005, took up residence in Tel Aviv’s poorer southern neighborhoods.
A particularly large wave of refugees arrived in Tel Aviv during the winter of 2008. During that time, it became common to see people sleeping outside in public parks or cramped into overcrowded shelters. Noticing the obvious distress of these newcomers to our city, several friends and I set up a voluntary organization to provide them with food, English and Hebrew lessons, children’s activities and whatever other services we could muster on a shoestring budget and with the help of a handful of volunteers.
Around the same time, the Israeli government, which also caught wind of what was going on, decided to restrict African asylum seekers from living inside Greater Tel Aviv(illegally, according to the UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees). This policy still applies to the vast majority of the almost 20,000 refugees from Sudan, Eritrea and other countries currently living in Israel.
The government is promoting a new law which would criminalize the refugees, threatening them and those that assist them with long jail terms. According to the bill, my friends and I, by choosing to spend our weekend helping refugee families move, could find ourselves sentenced to 20 years in jail.
Read the full article here:
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/07/israel-expels-african-refugees-from-tel-aviv.html
Twenty years in the UK is a life sentence. Life, for assisting refugees. But, at least gays have rights, eh, Amir.
The only reason the IDF accepts homosexuals is because until they did, they were swamped with young men pretending they were gay in order to not have to serve. Between them and the orthodox (who also don’t do military service), the army was running out of recruits, they had no choice but to allow homosexuals.
Utah? Wyoming? What about California? Or did you not hear about prop 8.
Look, I’m not trying to get into a superiority fight. The fact is that very few countries allow same sex marriage and in the US very few states. This is not the litmus test.
Overall, Israel’s record with LGBT rights is closer to the European record than to Egypt’s record.
Prop 8 will be repealed in the next major election cycle. There is an organized movement to do so. BTW, your Jewish friends in the L.A. pro-settler, Orthodox movement were instrumental in the fight on behalf of Prop 8.
I agree. But that’s not saying much. If Egypt’s record is 0 & the European record is 10, Israel is a 6 perhaps.
Are you saying that Orthodox Jews living in LA should be counted as Israelis and not Americans?
I don’t think so. But you specifically mentioned that California’s gay rights record was deficient due to Prop 8 & I thought you should know that Orthodox Jews, with whom you share so much politically (at least concerning Israel & settlements) were partly responsible for Calif’s rotten record as they are more than partly responsible for Israel’s less than stellar record concerning gay rights.
I just looked at the status of same sex marriage entry at wikipedia and was surprised to see just how right I was. Same sex marriages (SSMs) are allowed only in 7 countries and 3 US states and 3 US more US states will have them soon. I must point out that these are not the most populous states. SSMs are recognized but not performed in Israel and NY (and DC). In 43 states they are neither performed or recognized (including the most populous state CA). 29 states (over half) explicitly ban same sex marriage BY LAW and an additional 14 states define marriage as being between members of opposite sex. So if you live in one of these 43 states and you are gay or lesbian and want to marry, you are worse off than if you lived in Israel.
You are not correct. Actually Massachusetts, which has gay marriage, is not only a populous state, but a cultural/political bellweather. Further, New York is in serious stages of enacting gay marriage & were it not for a legislature that is in total disarray, a law would prob. be enacted this session. Calif. will also have gay marriage very soon I predict. So there are states in this country which allow performances of gay marriage in their jurisdictions while there are none in Israel that do.
Do let us know when Bibi’s Orthodox coalition members tell him they’d be happy with a gay marriage law in Israel.
And again, you are wrong about yr fate if you live in a no gay marriage state. You merely hop in your car or on a plane and travel to a state which performs them & voila, you’re married. Not too complicated or expensive usually. And certainly not “worse off than if you lived in Israel.”
But you’re marriage won’t be recognized in your home state. From Israel, you can hop on a plane to Belgium or Amsterdam (closer tan Mass is to Cal), not that big of a deal, and when you come you’re marriage will be recognized by Israel.
Actually, that isn’t always the case. There is usually the concept of reciprocity of marriages recognized in one state being recognized in another. So some states that don’t perform gay marriages might recognize those of other states.
In Israel, your European marriage will be recognized until you want a divorce & then good luck–how will the Orthodox rabbinate deal with the issue of gay divorce??!
Actually, California gays can fly to Canada to get married, a quicker trip than flying fr. Israel to Europe. And as I wrote I predict there will be gay marriage in CA. within a yr or 2.
But more importantly, if you live in New England or NY you can be in MA in anywhere from 5 mins. to 2 hrs. (depending on where you live) and be married. Your travel expenses will be a few dollars worth of gas.
Not quite the same as going to Ben Gurion, making one’s way through security, flying for 3-4 hrs., going through customs, & then getting married in some European country.
Evidence indicates that California would have defeated Prop 8 pretty soundly if it had not been for the huge influx of out-of-state money from the Mormon Church, and a very powerful and backward Catholic organization that spent enormous amounts of money on ads that were full of outright lies.
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“anti gay discourse” is tolerated in Israel because discourse is tolerated in Israel. People on the left have a hard time accepting that even intolerant people are allowed to have a say.
Intolerant people should be allowed to have a say, agreed. I’m all for freedom of expression. However, they should not be invited to join government coalitions! Here we’re talking about a cabinet minister who has described gays as sick people. Nowhere else in the democratic world would that be accepted, and you know it.
Israel’s record on LGBT rights is good, overall. It has a minister that thinks homosexuality is a disease. But, homosexuality is not treated as a disease in Israel. He tried to have the parade banned, but FAILED. Ishai and Shas hold a lot of other opinions that I disagree with. He represents a significant constituency which deserves to have representation in the parliament and government. Nevertheless, in spite of the fact that we still let him talk, their achievements are not that great in shaping Israeli society, certainly when it comes to LGBT rights.
Israel’s record is not “good.” I’d give it a B- grade, acceptable but certainly not good. Some of the reasons for that grade are specifically mentioned by you. The fact that a key minister in the gov’t sees gays as diseased scum is alarming (but not unexpected given Shas’ & Orthodox Judaism’s views on the subject). While there is homophobia & anti gay violence in this country, no Cabinet officer (at least not in a Democratic administration) would ever be able to make the comments that this Israeli minister has made on the subject.
HB – why don’t you read a little about the new President of the European Parliament
http://ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/09/Jul/1203print.htm
Then you can read about his political party the civic platform
http://www.gayagenda.com/2009/05/homophobic-hysteria-in-poland/
Remember, we’re talking about the President of the European Parliament.
The President of the European Parliament doesn’t seem to have made anti-gay statements himself, and at any rate he doesn’t currently claim that gays are sick. Does discourse matter? Yes it does. It is the anti-gay discourse that incited a homophobe Israeli to stab demonstrators at a gay parade in 2005. Of course he was given 12 years in jail (the poor man didn’t know that if he wanted to be released soon he had to stab an Arab), but countries that are free of anti-gay bigotry don’t have any gay stabbings at all.
He didn’t make any anti-gay statements himself, so that’s ok. All he did is enact an anti-gay agenda. Words are much more important than actions (sarcasm).
I can see your point. In the case of Jerzy Buzek, his words don’t count, only his actions. In the case of Ahmadinejad, his actions don’t count, only his inaccurately-translated words.
So what if they say “I Bet Ahmadinejad Wouldn’t Let This Happen in Iran.” Believe me, gays didn’t just fall off the turnip wagon!
Actually, Ishai never used the word “scum”. He was stating his opinion that homosexuality is a disease. If stating an opinion about a controversial issue is grounds for dismissal then you’re not living in a democratic society. And yes, homosexuality is still a controversial issue. It’s better to allow open discussion.
Can you parse for us the difference bet. “scum” and a “disease.” Personally, I don’t see much. And I’m sure if you actually asked him whether gays were “scum” he wouldn’t have much problem with the word.
I have no problem with an Israeli saying Israeli gays are scum if that Israeli is a regular citizen. But I have a huge problem with a gov’t minister doing so. That should be treif l’gamrey.
That’s nice that gays seem to generally be treated OK in Israel. And sure, one can argue that, on some issues like this one, Israel is more socially liberal than most of her Arab brothers and sisters. In this respect, we can see how Israel is taking part in the historical currents of cultural change/evolution happening in the Western world, at least when it comes to homosexuality.
Israel, by the very nature of its history, is quite closely tied to the West in a way that is different from its Middle Eastern neighbors, many of her citizens are or are descended from refugees or, later, immigrants from Europe, or hark from other western countries (like the U.S.) as well. It makes sense that there would be more of a parallel cultural trajectory on social issues like this. It’s all relative, though, Israel and the U.S. are fairly “backward” compared to western Europe when it comes to this stuff.
What I take from this post is that it’s sad that Israel is using its relative gay-friendliness in the Semitic world as a sort of PR campaign. Acceptance of gayness should be a value in itself, not part of an image front or some tool in Israel’s propaganda wars with its neighbors. To the effect of ‘oh look how enlightened and socially advanced we are and how bad and backward those A-rabs and Persians are’. This kind of more-enlightened-than-thou messaging is depressing and, perhaps ironically given the subject matter, it smacks of bigotry.
And none of this in the least bit rationalizes, justifies, or renders OK, Israel’s inhumane treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories or its periodic harassment of Lebanon. In this last respect, one could also see this gay-friendly PR campaign as a kind of discourse of avoidance.
Exactly.
To clear up misconceptions about being gay in Israel and Palestine see: http://www.aswatgroup.org/english/activities.php?article=386 .
Where the following comments are excerpted from an article on this website by Haneen Maikey, a Palestinian citizen of Israel and the director of Al-Qaws (“the rainbow” in Arabic) for Sexual and Gender Diversity in Palestinian Society (http://www.alqaws.org/), and Jason Ritchie, an American anthropologist whose research focuses on sexuality and nationalism in Israel-Palestine.
“As in most societies, homophobia is a problem in Palestinian society, but there is not some organized, widespread campaign of violence against gay and lesbian Palestinians. Of course, there are occasional acts of violence, much like there are occasional acts of violence against queers in Western societies; and the social norms and mores about gender and sexuality that give rise to such violence create a climate in which many queer Palestinians cannot live their lives openly and honestly. At the same time, however, there are many openly gay and lesbian Palestinians; they are actively engaged in changing the status quo in Palestinian society by promoting respect for sexual and gender diversity.
Those of us who know a thing or two about Israel know that seeking asylum in Israel is not an option anyway for Palestinians, who are specifically ineligible for asylum under Israeli law. It may be true that Israel “legally enshrines the rights of gay people,” but it enshrines only some rights for some gay people. Restricted freedom of movement, routine human rights abuses, detentions, checkpoints, and bombing campaigns are among the legally enshrined “rights” of Palestinians, whatever their sexual orientation, in the West Bank and Gaza.”
As one commentator said, if Israel wants to give “asylum” to gay Palestinians, give them citizenship.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fact that we still let him talk, their achievements are not that great in shaping Israeli society
So that if in a certain European country a minister claimed that Jews are hook-nosed money-loving scum you would be fine with it so long as he didn’t succeed in introducing antisemitic legislation? After all, it would be an instance of “letting someone talk.”
Well it depends. What’s his position concerning Israel?
Palestinian gays are targeted by the Israeli secret service and told they must collaborate or face being outed.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL2586865820080325?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
That’s what you get when gay haters like Eli Yishai are in government.
Richard – in Israel gay marriages that are performed outside the country are also recognised by the state. This was from a November 2006 case in the Supreme Court filed by five male Israeli couples living in Canada.
As for your B-, this is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory.
Your comment about the Shas cabinet minister is a good one, but in policy terms it seems that Israel has a record that certainly rivals the US’ (the six or so states that have legalised gay marriage in the country notwithstanding).
Are you saying that the Shin Bet’s blackmail of Palestinian gays to inform on its behalf is a record you & yr fellow citizen’s feel proud of? Are you claiming that a U.S. cabinet officer has called homosexuality a disease? Are you claiming gay marriages can be performed in any jurisdiction in Israel? As a citizen of Israel you NEED to feel that Israel’s treatment of gays rivals the U.S. I understand that need. But your need doesn’t make the claim true.
And I am by no means claiming that gay rights are unrivaled here or that we should be especially proud of our treament of gays. There is much work to be done. But Israel has little right to boast esp. when it does so as part of a hasbara effort.
To elaborate on my comments from above: it’s important to note that one of the tragic side effects of Israel’s penchant for cultural ‘dialogue’ via bombing and slaughter (beyond the slaughter itself), has been the slow, gradual religious radicalization of Arab communities living under the boot-strap of Israeli dominance. And you could say pretty much the same regarding America’s presence in the Middle East.
The Palestinians are traditionally & historically pretty moderate and secularist in orientation. You had a rich tapestry of culture with a Palestinian Muslim majority accompanied by a strong, vibrant Palestinian Christian minority dating back to the Roman empire, and this mingling with secular strands of Arab culture and learning. The incredible viciousness of Israel’s occupation of the territories has had the effect over time of radicalizing Palestinians, when daily life becomes horrible and unbearable, religious fundamentalism can become one avenue of escape and release from the daily humiliations and degradation.
I traditionally think of Lebanon to the north as the most cosmopolitan, culturally sophisticated corner of the whole region. Beirut was long considered the ‘Paris’ of the Near East. Since the Civil War and Israel’s ravaging of that country over the ensuing years, you don’t hear of Beirut so much in that vein any more.
Given all this context, it’s rather rich for Israel to trumpet its social liberalism vis-a-vis its bullied, bloodied neighbors. Maybe take your boot off the Palestinians’ friggin neck, or stop bombing the hell out of Lebanon every so often, and you might see what these two historically-most-moderate of Arab peoples could do, how they could flower, maybe even have a cultural metamorphosis & awakening in regard to the homosexuals in their midst?
Our occupation of Iraq has produced a similar tragic dynamic in this regard, cultural disintegration, radicalization and so on…
I couldn’t agree with you more.
PS Iraq has historically had a cohesive, open and moderate-to-progressive society, particularly with respect to women and religious/ethnic differences. Homosexuals were tolerated, especially in the arts, but not openly. In other words, it was generally known and accepted that certain people were gay, it was not overtly acknowledged. That began to change after the devastation of 1991, and the deterioration brought by the sanctions, and after 2003, Iraq is nearly 180 degrees from what it used to be.
Syria has not been favoured by the U.S. and Israel with the kind of treatment Palestine, Lebanon, and Iraq, and so Syrian society is still relatively cohesive, secular, and moderate-to-progressive. I have a number of homosexual friends and acquaintances in Syria, some of whom are fairly open about it, and most of whom are out to their families. It is generally very, very, very tough with and on the families, whether they are Christian or Muslim, or secular, but most seem to have come to a similar resting point which goes something like “You are my son/daughter, and that has not changed”. Mostly the families seem to be accepting if not supportive, and the homosexual sons/daughters respect the family by not flaunting the fact that they are gay. Once acceptance has set in it is usually not much of a subject for discussion. At least that is my impression in most cases. I really, really, really hope that Israel and the U.S. will leave Syria alone.
Thanks for the info, Shirin. I knew that Iraq was quite advanced and progressive before my country started messing with them hard-core, first in propping up and supporting the brutal dictator Saddam (we helped bring him to power), and then the 1st Gulf War, the horrific effects of the sanctions under the Clinton administration, and now our on-going occupation of the country. When I think of what we’ve done to that great society, how we’ve ravaged it, the cradle of civilization, it makes me feel ashamed to be an American.
I didn’t know that about Syria, though. That’s interesting. I’m particularly drawn to and fascinated by Lebanon and the complexity of Lebanese culture, and know a little about that country. I should learn about some of the other countries and societies in the region, like Syria. I’d also like to have more in-depth knowledge of Palestinian history and culture (though I know some stuff).
“The Palestinians are traditionally & historically pretty moderate and secularist in orientation…The incredible viciousness of Israel’s occupation of the territories has had the effect over time of radicalizing Palestinians, when daily life becomes horrible and unbearable, religious fundamentalism can become one avenue of escape and release from the daily humiliations and degradation.”
Again, well-put. So sad.
A recent headline makes the point: ‘Gaza’s top judge says he has ordered female lawyers to wear Muslim headscarves when they appear in court.
The move is the latest sign that Gaza’s Islamic militant rulers are increasingly imposing on residents of the coastal strip their strict interpretation of Islamic law.’
-And it works well for Israel. The more ‘fundamentalist’ Gaza becomes, or appears to be, the less approachable it is to Westerners, the easier it is for Westerners to find excuses to turn their backs on Gazan suffering.
ellen
Ok – good point; as far as I know, the US doesn’t exploit – for example – Iraqi homophobia – to gain new collaborators. And I’ve already noted the cabinet minister. Acknowledged.
Now – would you please look at the classical indicators of gay rights in Israel (I’ve linked to them)? Are you able to acknowledge that – on this level at least – Israel is at least in the same ball park as the US?
I’d also like to say that I don’t think any country should use this issue as a right to boast, and I’m not trying to boast here. But the converse is also true: not everything should be used as a stick to beat Israel with. In this case, I think a Progressive Zionist response is to say that Israel’s record on gay rights is relatively good (with some glaring exceptions pointed out above); it’s time that it made similar progress in other spheres of life. Of course, I don’t expect that anyone who writes the following – “But hey, I’m not complaining. This blog thrives off chronicling the bad judgment of some of my fellow Jews.” (without irony) is going to follow this advice, but at least I’m trying.
We’re going to have to disagree on this one. Israel’s record on gay rights is adequate, barely so. It is better than some & worse than others.
We’ve got to make an analogy.
There’s this country A where Jews are not persecuted, not a single piece of antisemitic legislation has been passed, and in fact Jews serve as judges and generals. However, a cabinet minister keeps saying that Jews are hook-nosed money-loving gentile-hating crooks.
At the same time, A has a conflict with country B, where Jews are persecuted and have to live in hiding. A blackmails Jewish citizens of B, telling them that they have to act as collaborators or else they will be outed.
Would you say A‘s respect for Jewish rights is “relatively good”?
HB – your analogies aren’t very good.
Is Israel really less tolerant of gay people than an “average Western Country”? What about Catholic Southern Europe, for example? Italy and Greece? Even France?
I’d also like to know why I’m still being moderated, given that I don’t break the comment rules.
Alex: I’ve explained this to you already, Alex. You’re not being moderated. You use diff. IP addresses almost every time you post a comment. My spam filter moderates all first time commenters as a way to ferret out abusive trolls. So you’re caught in that limbo because you don’t use the same IP every time you comment. If you did, you wouldn’t be moderated.
Looking at the chart Alex linked, Israel’s record is actually quite good. If Richard were grading on a curve, he’d have to give Israel at least an B+ if not an A-.
I’m not inclined to accept anything in Wikipedia on face value till I compare it to other independent sources. So hold off on telling me how I would grade Israel. You really meant to say that you believe Israel deserves that grade. I have enough experience with Israeli society & the research I do on the subject to hold by my B- grade. But let’s get off this subject, why don’t we. Everyone’s said everything they can possibly say about it.
Hasbara Buster – like much of what you write, it’s a rather reductionist analogy. Regarding how the Shin Bet treats Palestinian homosexuals, I need to read more on the issue – if you have some good places to start I’d appreciate it. But, yes, I’ll stick with the ‘relatively good’ judgement, as it’s a comparative one – and is backed up by the table I cited.
Alex, this has been documented in numerous articles in the Israeli press which I believe you read. I have read such articles myself. All you have to do is a Google News search on the appropriate key words. That will give yr research a head start over waiting for Hasbara Buster to respond to you.
Sorry Richard but it’s just a table with a series of indicators of gay rights (recognition of marriage, legal or illegal etc) which you’re perfectly capable of checking, at least when it comes to Israel and the US.
I’ve looked at what Hasbara Buster quoted, which is one Palestinian NGO raising the allegation (Morcos said Palestinian gays were sometimes targeted by the Israeli secret service (Shin Bet) and told they must collaborate or face being outed.) This article – http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/world/israel/isnews005.htm – makes the point that Palestinian homosexuals are already treated with suspicion, and as such probably don’t make the best collaborators, although obviously if the Shin Bet can get to them before other Palestinians know they are gay (presumably a tricky task) that might be redundant.
In any case, there hardly seems to be much systematic evidence of this practice out there, although that’s hardly necessary when it comes to outing Israeli crimes. I certainly think that your question of “Are you saying that the Shin Bet’s blackmail of Palestinian gays to inform on its behalf is a record you & yr fellow citizen’s feel proud of?” still needs substantiating.
Would it have been that hard to do this Google search which comes up with multiple sites reporting the Shin Bet’s blackmailing of Palestinian gays. None of these sites listed in this search are Israeli media stories of which there are also a number. Search Haaretz & Ynet & you should find at least one.
The Economist mentions the allegation (and also says the Palestinian security services do the same), as do some other places, but there is no evidence for it, and it all seems to be based on hearsay (presumably from the Palestinian lesbian NGO). I certainly don’t think this would meet the standard of proof required here for ‘pro-Israel’ or ‘anti-Palestinian’ stories.
Since when do Haaretz articles stating a phenomenon exists become “hearsay?” You have interesting standards of evidence.
Can you send me the link to the Haaretz piece? I looked on the first three pages of the websearch you sent and couldn’t find it.
Also – to be clear. Is the principle now that if it appears in Haaretz it’s true?
Let’s just say the principle is that it’s a lot more likely to be true than if Alex Stein claims it’s hearsay based on his limited internet searches. But yes, Haaretz is quite a credible source as far as I’m concerned. But I usually judge the credibility of even individual Haaretz reports based on the reporter’s individual reputation. Some reporters there are more credible than others.
I think JTA should suffice, no?
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2004/01/15/news/israel/nseek0116.txt
There is of course the standard Shin Bet denial accompanying this statement. You can choose to believe it if you like.
Do you have a link to the Haaretz article dealing with the issue? I couldn’t find it in the websearch you linked to.
Thanks.
Does this mean there is no Haaretz article on the issue?
This is what the article says on the matter –
“Human-rights observers suggest that Palestinian homosexuals, fearing for their lives if exposed, are especially vulnerable to Shin Bet blackmail. But a veteran handler of collaborators, Menachem Landau, denied this.
“Gays are already treated with suspicion in Palestinian society,” Landau said in an interview. “So what good are they for covert work?”
This is hardly enough to draw sweeping conclusions on the issue, unless the standard of evidence is that in dissing Israel it only needs to be suggested to be true. Sometimes a little agnosticism can be very useful, no matter what our ideological beliefs.
I’m not drawing a “sweeping conclusion.” I’m drawinng a totally appropriate conclusion that a JTA reporter, acknowleding credible human rights sources concedes the Shin Bet blackmails Palestinian gays to recruit them to spy for Israel. You may draw or not draw any inference fr. this you please.
The JTA reporter hasn’t “suggested” this is true. He has stated that human rights observers state that it is a fact. You can twist the “suggested” in the article in any which way you choose (& you will). But just about everyone reading this post & comment thread but you will read that word the way I do. I happily grant you minority status.
I read the Haaretz report but cannot find the link now. I will eventually find it.
I’m sorry Richard, but the reporter clearly doesn’t concede anything of the sort. S/he merely states that “human rights observers suggest,” and then quotes an Israeli source challenging that suggestion.
“But just about everyone reading this post & comment thread but you will read that word the way I do.” Well if so that’s because of a quite blatant double standard when it comes to assessing the deeds of Israel as opposed to the deeds of others. In this case, the lifting of one paraphrased one-line quote in a JTA article as evidence that “Israel blackmails Palestinian gays.” If we were talking about Hamas, this would be rejected as insufficient (which is fine by me, by the way, in certain cases – including this one – a bit of humble agnosticism is to be encouraged). As ever, double standards.
“Suggest” is a declarative statement. Human rights groups esp. those dealing w. the IP conflict are not in the habit of making vague, generalized statements not backed up by hard evidence. If you choose to view it a weaker statement than that you’re being disingenuous. But I suggest that you contact the reporter since this issue is so important to you & ask him to provide the human rights sources he quoted. That is the only way you can definitively debunk this phenomenon.
You’ve stated in approx 90% of all yr comments that I use a double standard & that boring, stupid, meaningless phrase pisses me off. If you can’t come up with some other phrase in future comments & keep repeating this one ad nauseam, you will bore me so silly that I may declare that phrase for you specifically off limits here.
This particular subject of Shin Bet blackmail of Palestinian gays is now done for you. Do not write anything further on it. If I find the Haaretz story or other credible sourcing I will provide it to you.
“‘Gays are already treated with suspicion in Palestinian society,’ Landau said in an interview. ‘So what good are they for covert work?”
Not much good maybe if they are “out”, but pretty useful I would imagine if they are not, which covers most gay men in the Arab world. Gay men in the Arab world tend not to develop mannerisms, modes of dress, grooming, etc., that will identify them as gay, so they can remain credibly “closeted” for a lifetime if they so choose, and most do, even in more open societies such as urban Syria, or the former Iraq. I would imagine that in Palestine, which is far more conservative, the overwhelming majority of gay men remain in the closet.
The issue of intelligence gathering techniques is irrelevant. The shin bet will use anything they can against a person if they think it is to their benefit. They would pressure a person who had an extra-marital heterosexual relation, who visited a prostitute, used drug use, had debt and yes homosexuality. It has nothing to do with the status of homosexuals in Israel. I find it hard to believe that this is particularly unique to Israel when carrying out intelligence operations outside of their country proper.
Not so fast. If it were discovered that a CIA opeative used gay blackmail to recruit an agent it would be a big scandal here if it were ever discovered. The fact that its SOP in Israel is an indication first of the supermacy of the intelligence services in Israeli life and second, the fact that the Shin Bet is only too happy to exploit such issues for its own benefit. Even for an intelligence agency there should be red lines. This apparently isn’t one of them & this shows that Israeli gays do not have enough acceptance within Israeli society to stop such practices.
Richard, this is rather ironic given that I sent you this – http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2009/7/28. Has it been a major scandal?
I have no idea what your point is. Are you saying that because the U.S. military violated the U.S. constitution and spied on non violent peace activists that this is somehow equivalent to the Shin Bet blackmailing Palestinian gays?
Well it’s a big story that didn’t become a big scandal. The examples are obviously very different, but I’m gently trying to challenge your assumptions about what would or wouldn’t become a great scandal in the US.
The statement by Ishai is relevant but not very important. Go to Tel-Aviv’s gay community and ask people what bothers them in Israel as homosexuals. I’ll wager not one would say “well three years ago Ishai said homosexuality was disease”. No, that statement by Ishai is only important to people who look for any excuse to criticize Israel. The typical “hasbara buster”, after googling, will discover that quote, and suddenly that is the most important standard for judging the status of homosexuals. And since what he said wasn’t that hateful, “hasbara busters” will always exagerrate what he said. Adding “scum”, turning a single interview to “Keeps saying” and making ridiculous analogies.
Kind of you to offer a wager, but a tad presumptuous to speak on behalf of Israel’s gay community & what does or does not bother them. If I were gay I know that every national politician who ever made such a comment would be on my personal political radar for much longer than 3 yrs after speaking in such an odious fashion. The only way he would fade fr. my radar is if he changed his views & acknowledged this which Yishai has not done.
I’d prefer you ban me than tell me to shut up when I still feel I have something to add. Your choice.
You haven’t done or written anything that would make me do so. But when you write multiple posts on the same issue & repeat yrself & yr arguments several times over it becomes tiresome. And I include myself in that because I prob. repeat myself as well. There are lots of issues for us to cover & if we get bogged down in discussing only one then there are others I won’t have time to address. I try to give a subject enough time & space to be discussed. But once it gets drawn out there’s a time to move on. That’s what I meant.
Well that’s fair enough – it’s understandable. You just don’t need to phrase it as a threat as you did beforehand.
It was said out of frustration. Plus I really don’t like using the same phrase over & over again in practically every comment. It gets old. Try something new & innovative for a change if you want to critique me.
39% of gay soldiers are harassed by their officers in Israel:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193496955&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Very clever Hasbara Buster. But the IDF still remains the most gay-friendly military in the world.
Sure. And it is also the most humane army in the world.
If all else fails try sarcasm, is that the idea?
The idea is to point out the absurdity of those kinds of standard Israel apologist platitudes.
Except in the case of gay rights in the Israeli military it isn’t absurd: it’s a fairly sober and accurate statement which you still haven’t managed to refute.
One of my Israeli friends who is gay has told me he did not have the easiest time in the military there, and he is someone who comes off pretty straight, and not someone who automatically sets off people’s “gaydar”. If he had a difficult time, imagine what it is like for someone who is more obviously gay.
A guy in my unit was gay. No one cared, or even was aware why he requested ‘extension’ on shower time (ie he showered after all of us). My other friend (you probably saw him on American Idol …) was as ‘gaydar’ beeping as possible and for some reason, he loved the army (he was in ‘army police’ – the ones who had out tickets and are hated by everyone) … I guess it depends on the individual.
If we’re on anecdotes, my best friend from the army was (and is) gay, and was treated very well by my commander (who was orthodox).
As for the ‘closeted’ theory – how does the Shin Bet get to them?!? One of the oddest aspect of those who see perfidity in everything Israel does is the superhuman qualities they attribute to an unfortunately all too fallibly human bunch.
Alex, I don’t know if you’re being disingenuous or what.
You can’t pretend that having an open gay-hater as a cabinet minister has zero or minimal importance because no anti-gay legislation has been enacted.
In Britain, when Rowan Laxton cursed the Jews in a gym he was prosecuted. If he hadn’t, Britain would have climbed a few positions in the ranking of antisemitic countries regardless of the absence of anti-Jewish laws or of the number of Jews in the House of Lords.
One of the oddest aspect of those who see perfidity in everything Israel does is the superhuman qualities they attribute to an unfortunately all too fallibly human bunch.
Surely the guys who managed to kidnap Vanunu in Rome and bring him back to Israel unnoticed are also able to spot the gays in town? Or is it now bigoted to acknowledge Israeli expertise in the field of intelligence? No antisemitic conspiracy, dude.
Hasbara Buster – I’m not being disingeneous. Nor am I suggesting it has zero or minimal importance. But the views of one cabinet minister in a political system in which extremist views can gain disproportionate representation are clearly of less significance than Israel’s relatively good record on gay rights legislation (the above qualifications withstanding), which you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
As for intelligence, as I keep saying, apart from one line from a Pal NGO, we seem to have very little to go on regarding this issue. It’s true that Israel has a good reputation when it comes to intelligence, but there have also been a lot of serious cock-ups over the years. Re. Vanunu – the man’s a fool; he flew to Rome on the basis of a snog. To get me on a plane I’d want a lot more. Still, it was wrong to put him in solitary confinement, and he’s now served his time (and then some), and should be allowed to live his life however he wants.
You cite legislation which is also being enacted in countries that aren’t exactly human-rights paragons, such as mine. The difference is that Israel allows anti-gay hate to be openly preached. That climate encourages incidents like the stabbing of gays at the Pride Parade in 2005, which would be unthinkable in my country.
Also, you fail to address Richard’s point that SWU shamelessly uses the gay community to peddle hasbara. Painting Israel as a gay paradise while not mentioning the gay-hate among the Ultra-Orthodox is like taking a visitor to see a city’s gleaming skyscrapers while carefully avoiding the shantytowns.
Hasbara Buster – Which is your country? Either way, I was talking in comparative terms with western countries, specifically the USA. Is there no anti-Gay hate openly preached in the USA? Have you seen Borat, or Bruno? Have gays never been stabbed in the USA?
Richard is right to say that the use of the gay community to peddle hasbara is pretty cynical. But I don’t think it justifies the vitriol of some of the responses here.
I would also remind you that homophobia in the Ultra-Orthodox community has nothing to do with Zionism. And why is that the principle of highlighting these negative aspects of a society don’t apply when the topic is homophobia in Palestinian or Arab society? Why is this explained away as the inevitable result of colonialism etc?
Alex, my point is precisely that overt displays of homophobia have everything to do with Zionism. Not because Zionism is itself anti-gay, but because it has legitimated one form of hate (anti-Arab racism), and it’s much easier to hate a group when hating another group is already the norm (the “snowball” effect).
As for homophobia in Arab societies, it’s much worse than in Israel, but the Arabs don’t set themselves up as examples of gay tolerance.
By the way, I’m from Argentina. Don’t cry for me.
Alex, unlike Israelis and Zionists, the Arabs have never claimed to be paragons of tolerance of homosexuality. Those who are not tolerant are very open about it, and those who are more tolerant are very open about the nature of their societies and the fact that there is a great deal of room for improvement in this as in many other areas.
If Israel has a climate which encourages violence against homosexuals, why is it that you are able to come up with only one incidence of violence which occured four years ago (one year before Ishai’s comment) and which was punished, as even you concede?
It sounds more like the exception than the rule.
What a difference a day makes. Did you see today’s Israeli headlines??
Why can’t we ever praise liberal values for what they are instead of using them as playing cards against the Arab and Muslim worlds?
That’s a good question.
Ishai isn’t a gay hater. Saying homosexuality is a disease is not hateful, it’s ignorant.
There is no comparison between what Ishai said and Laxton said.
Nevertheless, I don’t think Laxton should have been arrested, maybe kicked out of the gym.
Should he be fired? IMO that’s up to his employer. Is this how they think “diplomats” should behave? This is a question of professionalism as far as I’m concerned, and not bigotry.
I personally would settle for an apology and having him kicked out of the gym.
Whatever happened to him? the latest news I could find on him was he was on bail and suspended pending investigation. I couldn’t find if there was a trial or if his back working at the foreign office.
I just read on ynet in Hebrew that Israeli Social Security has decided to extend rights to gay “widdows” that can prove partnership undr the same criterea that hold for heterosexuals. Also, gay men who adopt a child will receive the same birth allowance that hetero couples receive. Meanwhile, in Washington (Richard’s home state) an antigay initiative has collected 137,689, 14% more than necessary to have the initiative placed on the November ballot. Which made me realize, there really is no anti-gay lobby in Israel. The closest we have is the anti gay pride parade in Jerusalem. But nobody really actively protesting the REAL achievements homosexuals are obtaining, usually through the courts.
But hey, what’s really important is that three years ago the leader of Shas, a minister in the government, called homosexuality a disease.
Alex Stein: “the IDF still remains the most gay-friendly military in the world”
Shirin: “Sure. And it is also the most humane army in the world.”
Shirin: “The idea is to point out the absurdity of those kinds of standard Israel apologist platitudes.”
Alex SteinExcept in the case of gay rights in the Israeli military…it’s a fairly sober and accurate statement which you still haven’t managed to refute.”
As Richard likes to say, not so fast, Alex Stein. You made the completely unsupported claim that Israel’s is the most gay-friendly army in the world. It is your job to present real evidence in support of that claim, not my job to refute it. And in fact, I pointed out the absurdity of some of the other utterly unsupportable claims about the Israeli army by way of refutation of your unsupported claim. The claims that the Israeli army is the most humane, or the most moral army in the world are refuted by the very well-documented facts about the actions of that army.
So, accept your burden to support your claim that the IDF still remains the most gay-friendly military in the world, and then it will become my burden to refute it. Until you do that your claim is not worth the electrons required to place it on this page.
Well the most was probably an exaggeration on my part, in the sense that very little comparative data seems to exist on this subject. But it is one of 29 countries which allows gays to serve in the military (the United States is not one of those countries). To put it another way: there doesn’t seem to be another country where gays have better rights. If so, please tell me about it. The burden of proof cuts both ways….
Not yet, you mean.
False. You’re extrapolating fr. a single right & claiming there is no other country where gays have better rights. That’s patently absurd. Gays in Israel have one right that gays in the U.S. don’t have. But gays throughout Europe overall face much more tolerant, accepting societies. If you were gay, which I take it you’re not, and if you lived in a few of those societies, you’d know that.
Unlike you, I have no brief to prove that Israel is the best at this or that. This allows me to be a bit more dispassionate than you appear able to be.
Richard – “Unlike you, I have no brief to prove that Israel is the best at this or that.” I have no brief like this either and you know it. Why do you have to write things like this about me?
It may be that you consider yrself a foil for my views & therefore come across as someone who always has to defend Israel or trumpet its virtues. But that is the way you sometimes come across (at least here). I know that you do have good values and do good work in the Israeli context. But I can only react based on what you write here, & that’s the way it often comes across.
I wish we had more in common here with our views about Israel. If you’re willing to be critical I don’t often see that here. Again, I understand you’re reacting to the context & you feel I am a harsh critic & that influences how you come across. But still…
Richard – on the whole I think sympathetic critique works more effectively than harsh censure. Here I sometimes think you are out to paint Israel in as bad a light as possible, rather than to constructively engage with its problems.
On topic, some breaking news: Two killed in a homophobic attack in Tel Aviv – http://www.gogay.co.il/content/article.asp?id=8475
Terribly, terribly sad.
Three dead in an attack against a gay center in Tel Aviv.
Israel is a society rife with anti-Arab racism. Now when it is the norm to hate one group, it becomes socially more acceptable to hate other groups as well, in this case the gays. This evening’s events show where that slippery slope leads, no matter how good the gay-rights legislation may be.
Well I’m not surprised so see you jump in with the ‘I told you so’. Does the ‘slippery slope’ theory explain violence against homosexuals in other societies?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. I didn’t say “I told you so.” In fact, Danny Zak, an Israeli gay said that in the passage quoted fr. Jerusalem Post. Perhaps you’d like to take yr objections up with him…
And speaking of anti gay violence in other countries, I’m having trouble recalling a massacre like this one anywhere else. I could be wrong as my recall isn’t perfect. But this may be the largest number of murdered gays in a single incident anywhere in the world.
Didn’t Andrew Cunan (sp?) go on a long spree killing homosexuals throughout the US before killing Versace and himself? Being South African, I remember this one unfortunately:
“Last year, Cape Town was stunned when nine male escorts, including the owner of the Sizzlers gay massage parlour, had their throats slit before being shot. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3505514.stm
Also, can we wait before a killer is apprehended? What happens if this was (as I said in your post now) a ex-lover of some guy/gal at the club and not some homophobic nutter?
Btw, his ‘I told you so’ comment was (I think) directed at the Hasbara Buster (Mr. Right as I affectionately call him)
Richard – the ‘I told you so’ comment was directed at Hasbara Buster.
Sorry I didn’t understand that.
This is interesting:
“I warned in a column last year that Israel is a place which, on the one hand has liberal laws, but on the other does not attempt to counter homophobia,” Danny Zak, a gay activist and journalist, told the Post during the demonstration. “A murder was waiting to happen,” Zak added.
“The Shas party has the blood of two innocent kids on their hands,” he said. “Shas has blamed gays for earthquakes and diseases. This is incitement, but no one is put on trial for it,” he said.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1248277945034&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
This is as close to what I’ve been saying as it could be.
This was a horrifying and sad attack which I fully condemn. Most of the victims were kids. I’m not a member of the religious community, but if it turns out the murderer is, the police and Israeli society should place them under greater scrutiny. I still think that the answer to free speech is more free speech and not prosecution. Most of the quotes by Shas members I’ve heard are homophobic but do not, IMO, qualify as incitement to murder. In fact the statement “The Shas party has the blood of two innocent kids on their hands” is closer to incitement. Especially since we don’t know who committed the crime yet.
This murder makes me fell sick. LGBT have many achievements in Israel in the last 10 years, maybe they came too fast for some people. Something like this could never happen in a place where gays and lesbians were closeted and didn’t have places to meet openly and publicly. And no Richard, I didn’t see the headlines, I was up all night watching the developments live hoping they would catch the murderer.
The fact that a gay leader cites the Shas statements is proof that, contrary to what has been suggested here, the gay community of Israel does feel threatened by such hateful discourse, whatever its actual connection with the crime.