The chickens are finally coming home to roost. After a failed war that ended up killing 1,000 Lebanese and 150 Israelis and caused billions in damage to both Israel and especially Lebanon, a partial bill has been presented to Israel by the UN:
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon will demand that Israel pay Lebanon $1 billion in compensation over damages caused during the Jewish state’s 2006 war against Hizbullah, Lebanese media reported Saturday.
According to the report the sum, based on World Bank appraisals, is aimed at covering the environmental and material damages caused by the Second Lebanon War to neighboring countries as well.
The fundamental part of the compensation demanded is for the damage caused to the Lebanese coast due to an oil spill following an Israeli bombing of a southern Beirut power plant, which the Lebanese said had caused “an ecological disaster.”
According to the report, Ban plans to submit a report to the United Nations General Assembly at the end of the month, stating that damage Israel caused to the oil reservoir polluted Lebanon’s coast, and that the pollution spread to neighboring countries, especially Syria.
…The oil spill, which was defined the greatest natural disaster in Lebanon’s history, took place after Israel Air Force planes hit a power plant and caused some 110,000 oil barrels to leak into the Mediterranean Sea.
The report said that the UN wants Israel to compensate the countries harmed by the oil spill and restore the environmental situation along the Lebanon coast.
By way of comparison, the Exxon Valdez disaster spilled 250,000 barrels of oil. The UN has basically called Israel the Joseph Hazelwood of the Mediterranean, with the only difference being the skipper of that boat didn’t set out to cause an environmental disaster while Israel arguably did. Or at the very least didn’t give a fig if it happened.
I’m pleased that an international body like the General Assembly will take up this matter. One can argue from the left or right whether Israel deserves to be brought up on war crimes charges for its behavior in Lebanon. But it’s much harder to make this particular claim into a political one. The damage was done and it is quantifiable. The author of the damage is not in doubt. The only item at issue is whether Israel can be made to own responsibility for this environmental crime.
Interestingly–and speaking of the Exxon Valdez–Richard Steiner, University of Alaska professor and environmental conservation specialist, makes a strong case that the Jiyeh bombing WAS a violation of the laws of war. But one needn’t even go this far in order to assign culpability to Israel for the disaster. Prof. Steiner also published an extensive report on the oil spill for the International Union for the Conservation of Nature.
I say this monetary claim is a good thing because the Israeli people need to know that war waged in their name which ravages an entire region will have a price not just in human life, but in cold, hard cash. And if Israel does not pay, then it will face the opprobrium of the international community not just for its military actions, but for the ecological disaster it caused.
If one thinks back, the last Middle Eastern leader to cause such an environmental disaster was Saddam, who blew up Kuwait’s oil wells. Does Israel want to be thought of in the same breath with him?
NOTE: I subsequently found a far more comprehensive and well-reported article on this at The National.
@Michael:
Well, golly gee–that must mean that calling me “al-Silverstein” wasn’t meant as an “attack on the author,” but rather an honorific. I didn’t know you had such respect for me. I”m touched. I’ll never say another harsh word about you now that I know what your real intent was.
Well in typical fashion you left wing extremists always attack the author or shoot the messenger but can never respond to the question..
@Michael: Who’s gonna pay for the damage you do to reason, coherence and tolerance?
You had me there for a minute. I was wondering what Iraqis have to do with Shea Stadium. It’s “Shi’a” wingnut.
And the “al-Silverstein” thing is cute, really cute. Jon Stewart should be calling you any moment. Your scintillating wit will surely be properly appreciated some day. It develops slowly (VERY SLOWLY), but really grows on you after an Ice Age or two.
Probably al’ silverstein would blame the Jews in Israel for the barbaric atrocities that are carried out between the peace loving Fatah Palestinians & the peace loving Hamas Palestinians, perhaps according to al’ Silverstein Israelis should also pay for the damage they have caused to each others infrastructure { if there is such a thing in the Palestinian terror-tories]..on that subject perhaps Americans should pay for the damage Shea and Sunni peace loving Iraqis have caused in their backyard… and the Israelis should pay compensation for the Lebanese Muslims murder of Lebanese Christian leaders.. perhaps the Americans should have paid compensation for the damage Iraq caused when they invaded their fellow Muslim neigbours, perhaps the Americans should also pay for damage they bombed Japan and the Britts should pay for damage they caused when they bombed the germans ..what do you think Al’ silverstein ..Do you know what a wanker is?
@Jane:
You’re outnumbered 11,000 to 1 since that is how many comments have been published in this blog. So a few commenters here disagree w. you.
You attacked me because I only criticized Israel & not Hezbollah. And yet when I noted you only criticized Hezbollah & not Israel this was a hanging offense. Interesting sense of proportion you have.
As for not “putting up” with me, we’ll be truly sorry to see you go (if you do go).
Silverstein has such expectations of his correspondents that I wonder that anybody bothers.
Mention one facet and he marvels that you do not mention another.
Congratulations to those who put up with this petty tyrant. I will no longer do so.
@Jane:
The problem is that some readers like you “expect” things of me & you’re bound to be disappointed since I’m not prepared to embrace yr expectations. There are 2,000 posts in this blog. Some of them deal with Hezbollah. Some of them describe my views of their behavior during the Lebanon war. Before being disappointed by my not fulfilling yr “expectations” you should do a keyword search and try to discover what I’ve written on the subject.
FAR more damage was done to Lebanon & Lebanese by Israel than the other way around. Should Hezbollah be liable for the damage it caused? By all means. Should Israel? By all means. But let’s keep things in perspective. Hezbollah killed 150 Israelis & Israel killed 1,000 Lebanese. Israel caused multiple billions of dollars to Lebanese infrastructure from Beirut throughout the territory south of it. The damage caused to Israel, while not insignificant, pales in comparison.
A massive environmental catastrophe is not a “nuisance.” It is a disaster. Have you read the report I linked by environmental expert Richard Steiner? If not, do so before you attempt to make judgments on this matter. Steiner is one of the world’s foremost experts on the Exxon Valez disaster. Steiner is the one who says that the Lebanon spill is not just an environmental disaster but a war crime. Try arguing with that.
All of us value forests. But I find it slightly odd you would be so deeply concerned about keeping Israelis in northern Israel cool after entire neighborhoods of Beirut and scores of other villages in the south of Lebanon were literally razed to the ground. Not a word of sympathy for the singeing heat those bombs caused as they incinerated buildings containing real human beings??
All of us value the wildlife of northern Israel and decry damage to its habitat. But not a word of sympathy for the thousands of Lebanese civilian human beings killed or maimed by the Israeli attack?? Do you have yr priorities straight??
I marvel at the “balance” you show by claiming Israeli wildlife habitats were reduced to cinders in an environmental cataclysm while only conceding that Lebanon suffered a “nuisance.”
I expected to read, in your introduction to this subject, a balanced discussion of whether Israel or Hezballah were either of them to blame for natural disasters caused by the war and whether the UN would be justly claiming compensation from Israel only and not from both parties. Instead I found rejoicing that Israel, in effect, was being punished.
The spillage of oil is an ecological nuisance though the proportions hardly equal that of the Exxon Valdez. I wonder that the destruction of huge reaches of forest in Israel, planted to change the climate and the local ecology and that had succeeded in dropping the average local temperature several degrees, was not also seen in the same light. These forests had housed indigenous animals, lured back slowly and with great love and patience by the forest rangers, animals hunted almost to extinction and dying out because their environment had been made barren by the black goats’ habits of eating at the roots of the plant. Despite the dangers of the Hezballah missiles rangers had risked their lives attempting to put out fires and to help the animals terrified by the noise and destruction to reach sanctuary.
I was pleased to see that there was much objection to your one-sided attitude. Justice is not dead in our world.
@Jane: Might that be because in your comment you only referenced Hezbollah’s misdeeds & never mentioned any misdeeds on the part of Israel? I can only read what you put on the pg. & judge you based on that. I don’t claim to know what’s in yr mind if you don’t reveal it. So next time if you want to reveal yr full views on the subject do so & I’ll respond accordingly.
I wrote three lines about why it’s obvious that Hizbullah started the war and you know so much about me that you say I denied Israel’s wrongs. What are you, a clairvoyant?
@Leroidavid: OK, here’s my proposition. Israel agrees to adjudication for criminal and financial claims by both sides by the international court. Do you accept? I didn’t think so. Because you know that the damages inflicted on Israel are far lighter than those inflicted on Lebanon. The price Israel will have to pay will be far heavier.
I’m all in favor of allowing Israel to make a claim against Hezbollah as long as Israel agrees to pay any verified claim against itself. How ’bout you?
@Jane: Uh, maybe because the evidence convincingly puts Israel in the wrong.
I’ve never denied the wrongs committed by Hezbollah & said they should be held accountable for them. But unlike you, I’ve never denied Israel’s wrongs either.
You seem determined to put Israel in the wrong Richard. Why is that?
Why are you pleased to see that a demand is made for Israel to pay for a war started by a militia in another country which peppered its civilians with 40 huge missiles, kidnapped two soldiers in Israel’s sovereign territory and then ambushed those who followed in hot pursuit?
Who will pay for Lebanese crimes against humanity?
For the indiscriminate bombing of Israeli civilians by Lebanese terrorists for the past 30 years?
For the destructions of more than 1000 houses in northern Israel in the 2006 war?
For the large forest fires in the 2006 war, which burned more than 100.000 trees in northern Israel?
Not to mention for the economic loss for millions of civilians in Israel?
It was Lebanon that attacked Israel.
Lebanon shall be condemned to pay billions to Israel.
@rundmc: You didn’t read either what I quoted or the website. It says that it is a violation of international law to attack a “civilian object” even if there is a contention that the object MIGHT have a military use. The fact that some small percentage of the power generated might have been used by Hezbollah has NO bearing on its status as a civilian object. If Hezbollah had it own personal power plant that only supplied power for its military operations, then such an attack might be justified. But that’s not the case here.
Additionally, an eminent professor of environmental conservation who specializes in the Exxon Valdex disaster, also argues in this letter to Condi Rice that the bombing WAS a war crime.
Hamas? What are you talking about? I’m talking about the Lebanon war. Hamas?
OK. Let it be known to one & all that Rundmc accepts the jurisdiction of the international court to judge whether or not Israel’s attack on Beirut’s power plant was a violation of the laws of war. Now, since you know so much about the laws of war (!) maybe you’ll persuade Israel allow you to represent it! That would be fun to watch. Do me a favor though & make sure you don’t charge Hamas with war crimes in this case since the judges will wonder whether you’ve lost your mind.
Richard,
You quoted from a major legal resource but that does NOT “clearly” support your contention that Israel committed war crimes by bombing the Jiyeh plant. It’s only illegal when there is DOUBT that the enemy is using civilian resources. There was no doubt about the power plant, or the civilian bridges that were bombed. Both were being utilized by Hamas.
If that’s the best you’ve got, it doesn’t at all clearly support your contention nor that of the UN or any human rights orgs.
I say bring on this phony charge. It won’t stand up as there exists no international law in the books that condemns Israel’s actions against the power plant. Oh yeah…and so long as the court is comprised of judges from western democratic nations, I’ll go along with their ruling. To be lectured and charged by judges from nations who have horrendous human rights records (like Syria, Cuba, N.Korea, Libya, etc..) is a joke, and we all know it.
Just Compensation:
Should Iraqi people demand compensation from USA for our attack on their country, killing their people and destroying their nation?
Kuwait and Iran both have demanded compensation from Iraq for the damages and death imposed on their countries. Are they receiving compensation? Have not Jewish people been receiving compensation from Germany for Hitler’s period of slaughter and economic damages?
World should use the World Court and the United Nations to resolve grievances and conflicts among nations. War is just too uncivilized!
@rundmc:
You are entirely ignorant of what I’ve said on the subject & have done no research before making such a statement. Do yrself a favor & do some next time so you don’t have to make statements that are so lacking in credibility.
So let’s see. You’re an expert of the law of war because of what particular expertise? I’ve quoted a major legal resource on the subject which clearly supports my contention. And you’re quoted…yrself! Well, you’ll have to allow us to have quite a bit of skepticism on yr position.
So you’re willing to say explicitly that you’re prepared for Israel to face such a charge before an international tribunal as long as it has the right to put its defense forward? And you’re willing to accept a ruling that disagrees with yr. position? Or is all you’re doing mouthing off by making a claim & then not willing to stand behind it by allowing it to be tested in a court of law??
Richard,
I have no problem with both Israel and Hezbollah being held accountable so there is no moral or legal bankruptcy for my position. If anything, I have yet to see you make a case for Hezbollah being held criminally responsible for anything.
I also agree it’s a civilian power plant, but that makes no difference in this case. The fact remains Israel committed no war crime by taking out the power plant. In times of war, if the opposing enemy uses civilian facilities, it’s LEGAL to attack that facility so long as the ‘cost’ of doing so (civilian lives) isn’t disproportionate. Else, the enemy could ALWAYS hide or use civlians and their facilities and COUNT on never being attacked. No such law, as you believe it to be, exists for the simple reason that if it did, DEFENDING against enemies using civilians would be IMPOSSIBLE.
This is why when the UN issues such rulings, or when human rights agencies make such accusations – that they cannot be taken seriously.
Israel simply will not pay a dime because no one will ever be able to show Israel broke any international law by bombing that power plant (civilian or not). Israel bombed civilian bridges as well to inhibit Hezbollah’s movement and rearming by Syria/Iran – for the EXACT reason they bombed the power plant. Israel would have been stupid NOT to do so – hence, there is no such law that criminalizes such an act.
@rundmc:
Even you concede it was a CIVILIAN power plant. Hence there is no doubt that it was a “civilian object.” The fact that Hezbollah may have been using a small fraction of the electricity to power a computer or some other object that may’ve been used in its battle against Israel does not turn the plant into a military object.
I’ll tell you what: if you agree that the international court should bring a case against Israel for violating laws of war in this case to determine whether the plant is or is not a civilian object, then I’ll agree if Israel is found innocent that I’ll oppose the $1 billion penalty. No doubt, you oppose Israel being put in such a position (though I’m sure you’d be more than happy were Hezbollah placed in it). As opposed to you, I’m in favor of both sides being brough to justice for their crimes. This points out the absolute bankruptcy of your moral & legal position.
@Sammy: There are 11,000 comments in this blog, at least half of which “dare to challenge me.” The opponents who have an axe to grind, are disingenuous, use insults, etc. are a fraction of those, which means there are many challengers who have their say & are not responded to harshly. If someone comes here full of snark as you have, they’ll be met w. similar response. If they don’t, they won’t.
I’m always amused by disingenuous people like you who take the time to “lurk” here & then publish comments, but who then claim they don’t take this blog seriously enough to actually read it & publish a comment here. Why else would you be here?
If I were the PM of Israel, I would agree to pay the one billion dollars if the UN enforced resolution 1701.
The Resolution demands:
Full cessation of hostilities (OP1)
Israel to withdraw all of its forces from Lebanon in parallel with Lebanese and UNIFIL soldiers deploying throughout the South (OP2)
Hezbollah to be disarmed (OP3) !!!!!!!!!
Full control of Lebanon by the government of Lebanon (OP3) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No paramilitary forces, including (and implying) Hezbollah, will be south of the Litani River (OP8). !!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Resolution at the same time also emphasizes:
The need to address urgently the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers, that have given rise to the current crisis.
Richard quoted:
But the new rules go further by providing that in cases of doubt whether certain objects normally used for civilian purposes are being used to help the military mission, thereby losing their protection from attack, a presumption shall be made that it is not so used.
=======================
My response to Richard:
Your quote in italics is only for cases in doubt.
There is no reason to doubt that Hezbollah was using a major civilian power plant to help wage war on Israel’s citizens. This makes the power plant a legitimate target. The longer it can be utilized in any way imaginable by Hezbollah to kill Israelis, the greater the death toll for Hezbollah targets. This is basic military 101. And this is why any report claiming the Jiyeh bombing to be a war crime – or any body like the UN that attempts to make this ridiculous claim – should not be taken seriously.
Look, I say let the UN further disgrace and embarass itself by wasting more of its time targeting Israel (while ignoring greater crimes on the planet) only to have this backfire on them when it’s proven that Israel hit a legitimate target in a time of war. Israel will not – and should not – pay a dime.
Richard Silverstein, I’m a lurker here, too, and it’s hilarious to see how you demonize anyone who dares to challenge you — and even more hilarious when, like a child, you toss out that “banning” card like you’re a ref on the soccer field.
How anyone could take you seriously I don’t know.
@Chaim: I do read Lebanese blogs, far more often than you. For you to say that they “mostly blame Hezbollah for the disaster” shows you’re only reading the selected blogs that reflect yr pt of view. Every Lebanese blog that I’ve read–& I’ve read blogs fr. every ethnic group–blame Israel far more than Hezbollah. Certainly some Lebanese blogs detest Hezbollah. But they detest Israel far more.
Only a member of the Israel uber Alles crowd would claim w. a straight face that Hezbollah was responsible for the damage Israel inflicted on Lebanon.
The bullshit about the “Zionist entity” is yet another pathetic attempt at “wit” by an Israel Firster who doesn’t even bother to read enough of this blog to realize that it SUPPORTS Israel (though not with the type of uncritical, knee-jerk support Chaim demands).
Read Lebanese blogs. As much as some hate Israel, they mostly blame Hezbollah for the disaster. LET HIZBULLAH PAY FOR THE DAMAGES ITS ACTIONS INFLICTED ON LEBANON AND ON ISRAEL!!!!
But, then again, as some people frequenting here or writing for this blog will attest, the Zionist Entity is to blame for everything that ails this world. Ain’t that right?
@Jessica S: I use the term “lie” or “liar” only when it is justified. I always provide proof of my charge. I would challenge you to find a single instance in which I used the term & did not provide evidence. Whether or not you would accept my evidence is another story & entirely irrelevant to my concerns.
Not only that, but Lior called me a liar when what I had done wasn’t even close to being a lie. He never provided any evidence that my post contained a lie or I was a liar. I would challenge you to find anything supporting his claim that I lied.
@rundmc: Yes there is. This is from Crimes of War, a website devoted to discussion of the Geneva Conventions as they apply to war situations:
A civilian power plant or oil refinery which provides almost all the oil or power for an entire city fits comfortably under the latter definition as something off limits for attack.
Mr. Richard Silverstein –
If this is so… it would seem rather ironic considering you routinely call and name other people liars for no other reason other than a seeming affinity you have to label others… which would make this statement incredibly hypocritical
Even all the more so.
Richard wrote:
No, bombing civlian power plants is a violation of international law. And I didn’t realize that you were an Israeli general & so capable of expounding at length about what Israel’s tactics should or should not be.
My response 2 Richard-
There is no international law that makes bombing civilian power plants in a time of war an illegal violation. No such law exists and I challenge you to cite it – for times of war. The simple reason being that the enemy can always take advantage of such facilities (civilian or not) to keep waging war against the opposing country.
Its okay. The US will cough it up with some of our freshly printed “funny money”. Don’t worry Israel. We are always there for our “ally” in the middle east. If I were Israel, I’d be looking for a new sugar daddy, since the old buck ain’t worth what it used to be. That may be a tough one…
@Lior:
You seem to have a serious problem not being able to distinguish between a minor error and a lie. They are quite different.
I am not a liar. I do not allow ANYONE to call me one. You have been banned for violating my comment rules.
I find it interesting that this commenter began his first discussion at the Israel Palestine Forum pretending to be a dispassionate seeker after truth. We can see right here how fake that disguise was.
I ACCEPT!!!
lets meet here again in 28 days and one of two things are sure to happen
The bill has been presented which would make you the equivalent of that guy from that tv show who received every morning tomorrows newspaper. The post will become truth from a prophet and you will bask in the ultimate reward of being right.
or
A bill has not been presented and you will eat your hat and apologize to me and everyone else whom you took on your little expedition of fiction
you know, its when supporters of the palestinian agenda start to talk to me about “life and death” in order to justify their inaccuracies and lies that I start to dig into my own believes. Are you really saying that I as an inteligent grown up person should consider that in an important issue that is a life and death situation TO ME MY DEAR FRIEND! NOT TO YOU SITTING THOUSAND OF MILES AWAY FROM ME! TO ME! I should consider accepting your little lies as being something to overlook just becasue it serves your bigger “life and death” agenda?
moderate this comment as you like, it says more about you than me etc. etc.
Lior
@Benjamin Bratt: These arguments, besides being non sequiturs, are retreads of the same arguments you’re regurgitating ad nauseum fr. other threads. The Arabs are bad. The Arabs are corrupt. The Arabs are murderers. Blah, blah, blah.
For this reason, this is your last comment in this thread. If you attempt to post again in this thread yr comment privileges may be revoked since you’ve already violated this request in another thread.
I’m not insinuating it. I’m saying it. Right out loud. To the pro settler, Likud crowd to which you belong the UN is a cesspool of hate. But alas that reality isn’t shared by many outside of yr little cabal.
All of yr other arguments have nothing at all directly to do with the Israeli attack on the Lebanese oil refinery.
I react to commenters according to the approach they take to me. You’ve been hostile, snarky & insulting since Day 1. So don’t expect coddling for that.
@Mona: So are you claiming that you don’t disagree w. my views & are not critical of them despite the fact that you have been? If that’s so, then why did you object to a blog post noting that Israel would be presented with a bill to clean up an environmental disaster it created? Do you agree that Israel should be responsible for this?
And do please tell me one thing about my views you agree with. I’d really like to know.
Why should I admit something that is utterly wrong?
Your “derech eretz” is disgraceful. I quit wasting my time on you and your blog.
I didn’t confuse anything and why can’t you EVER……. make a point without your over the top meaningless accusations and name calling… as if you need to try and demean others in order to blow yourself up [sic] and feel better… lol…
Are you trying to insinuate that the UN is not an anti Israeli organization as a whole and/or that Durbin [sic] for example was not? a cesspool where the hate came crawling out in the open?
Why wouldn’t the UN make a PC “resolution” as it always does in the reverse… you know a mealy mouthed nothing stating that Israel and Hezbollah were culbable [sic] and then try and quantify the meaningless Res with a %?
Meanwhile, what Syria has robbed and is still robbing today in corruption and mafia graft etc… is 10x the Billion you’re asking for and last time I checked Lebanon Christians were not going across Syria and kidnapping Syrians, or shooting rockets into Damascus…
yes, the UN is an Orewellian joke… hey but your [sic] the one who puts up his shingle claiming to spread only “peace love and tikun olam” so I guess hashem has not only given you clearvoyance [sic] but the annointed right to be arrogant towards those who disagree with you.
@Benjamin Bratt: Complicated? Your argument isn’t complicated. It’s simple–& full of distortion & lies.
The UN Security Council is deliberating sending the bill to Israel. It has nothing to do with the UN Human Rights Commission. Though it’s perfectly convenient to yr ideological propaganda to confuse the two. In the eyes of propagandists like you there’s no difference. The UN is one big cancerous anti-Israel cesspool. That is pretty much what you believe, isn’t it?
@Lior: Tell me this isn’t how you spend all yr time counting up errors in verb tenses made by bloggers whose views you disapprove of. Did I say “carping?” How ’bout “petty?”
And as for the snark, I don’t have time for it. THis is a warning. I’m moderating yr future comments & if any display the kind of feeble snark you’ve written here your privileges will be history.
@Lior: Look, this isn’t a chess match or pilpul. This is life and death. You’re satisfied with “catching out” yr opponents in supposed errors in order to supposedly prove they lack credibility while I’m focussed on Israel’s disastrous war in Lebanon & the bill that already has been paid in lives & the bill they will be paid in cold hard cash.
I’m expecting you to return here in 28 days when the rpt. is issued to then acknowledge that that all tenses match & Israel is being given the bill for a $1 billion environmental disaster. Will you?
BTW you made that future-past tense mistake twice! what a coincidence!
Once in the title
“DEMANDS” using present instead of future
and once in the article
“Has been presented” using past instead of future
And i see you have not yet re-edited your post
Oh well… it is YOUR blog. nothing i can do ’bout it eh?
🙂
Can’t say I’ve ever been to a “hasbara” meeting as such, and I’d imagine being in your fanclub would be much more exciting and interesting.
No the argument is much more complicated than that… the fact that Israel is the 1 country that is picked on to make an example of by an organization as corrupt and hateful as the UN is the point. I suppose it would be like Quadaffi or Castro lecturing to me about human rights and democracy which actually essentially happens in the UN Human Rights Committee or whatever they changed the name to now.
Richard writes :
“You’re carping. I wrote slightly mistakenly that a bill HAS been presented to Israel. Actually, I should’ve written that a bill WILL BE presented to Israel within 30 days. Big deal. Only someone with yr prejudices would take umbrage as the mistake in tenses. THe information is verfied and true. The only problem was the tense.”
Point.Match.
Kudos for admitting a mistake was made. as for the explenation that the mistake is meaningless?
Richard says im venting over nothing. that using the past tense instead of the future one is an “editors error” something to overllook and that it carries no weight over the validity of his arguments.
hmm lets try something
–An exercise in using richards common sense starts here —
A Palestinian state has existed for some time now – therefore – ALL palestinians claims about current occupation and a denial of their right to their own state are untrue and void!!!
oh my, did i write has existed ? i meant will exist sometime in the future ( I used that lebanese journalist crystal ball for it)
Bah no matter. Richard says that tense usage isnt really important in analyzing an arguments validity.
–An exercise in using richards common sense ends here —
As they say in the US of A, Pa-Lease.
@Mona: I’ll presume to comment on what you write in any way I choose. Just because you’ve been reading this blog & been a lurker doesn’t mean you didn’t come here as a critic. Admit it. You don’t agree w. my views. Seeing the way I slightly mischaracterized the Ynet story gave you the opening you were seeking to attack my work. The fact that you can’t own up to yr own partisanship is rather sad.
Yes I do deny I have any connection with the other commenters.
And don’t presume to tell me what I am or why I came. I have been reading this blog for a while and have been a lurker. I felt the need to comment on this post since what you wrote was just plain wrong. And instead of correcting your post, you have launched a rather childish attack on me.
@Mona: Yes, precisely. The 3 of you noted the same issue & wrote about it in virtually the same way. Abe seems a bit more bloodthirsty than you & Lior in that he’d be happy to see Israel level Lebanon & you haven’t gone that far. The pattern in yr comments is more than coincidence & you haven’t denied you have any connection to the other 2 I note.
And don’t play the innocent card with me. You ARE a critic of this blog. You came here as a critic. You wrote as a critic though you pretended to be an unbiased observer. You’re still a critic. The only reason you pretend a certain degree of moderation is because you want my readers to think you have no axe to grind when nothing could be farther fr. the truth.
Richard,
So let me understand. More than one of us notices you did not represent correctly the linked story, so therefore we must have coordinated our comments? Oh please.
I am beginning to see what the critics of this blog are talking about.
@Abe Bird: We’ve been joined by yet another member of the Hasbara crowd. THey must coordinate their talking pts before they fan out across the internet doing their bit for truth, justice & the right-wing Israeli way.
I have published this comment so my readers can see for themselves the type of Islamophobic hate that lurks in the alleged minds of the Israel uber Alles crowd. Alas, for violation of my comment rules, poor Abe won’t be publishing any further comments here.
@Mona: My oh my. Pardon me. Since you raise virtually the same argument as Lior in almost the same words, you’ll have to pardon me for thinking that the 2 of you coordinated yr participation in this blog. I’m sure such a thing has never happened before in all the annals of hasbara online organizing. Just for the hell of it did you coordinate with him in any way?
If you think the fact that I wrote that the bill had been presented when in fact it WILL BE presented within 30 days is a monstrous error, then perhaps you’ve never written yr own blog & can be forgiven for being a back seat driver.
You can interpret my attitude toward you any way you like. I don’t write this blog for you though you’re welcome to visit & say what you will. Just know that I will respond to you in the same manner in which you respond to me.
If you carp I will carp back.
@Lior: I don’t know you personally from Adam. But given there are 11,000 comments in this blog I’ve heard pretty much every argument that can be made including ones similar to yours. So yr political views are quite familiar despite the stealth way in which you attempt to present them in the Forum thread you originated.
Generally when a reporter for a reputable newspaper as The National is writes that he has personally confirmed a story through UN and Lebanese media sources, you can trust that he has done so. In addition, the reporter actually interviews a gov’t minister who is quoted on the record confirming the story. So much for “providing no evidence.” You actually mean the story provided no evidence YOU were willing to trust. Yr standard is a bit diff. than all the rest of us I’m afraid.
And the story does NOT “tell the same story as the Ynet article.” In fact, it is quite longer & includes added sources referenced above. Also, his story is not based on an unnamed Lebanese publication as Ynet’s is. This reporter actually did the spade work himself.
You’re carping. I wrote slightly mistakenly that a bill HAS been presented to Israel. Actually, I should’ve written that a bill WILL BE presented to Israel within 30 days. Big deal. Only someone with yr prejudices would take umbrage as the mistake in tenses. THe information is verfied and true. The only problem was the tense.
I didn’t call you a troll. In fact, I said I didn’t think you were a troll. But you’re certainly a right-wing Israeli. That’s not “calling names.” It’s merely descriptive. Should anyone doubt yr right wing views they only have to visit yr comment thread in which you disparage Palestinian nationalism & blame Palestinians for not creating their own state before 1967. Right-wing through & through.
A warning: I’m not getting into an argument here about these views of yours about Palestinians which are puerile in my opinion. If you wish to debate someone about them there are myriad online venues to do so. Not here.
Richard,
I am not part of the “the international hasbara brigade”, so get your facts right. I am someone who keeps an open mind, but has very little tolerance for sloppy fact-checking.
My main point was not that the story was dubious. It was that you blogged that a partial bill HAS BEEN PRESENTED. Neither of your links show this to be the case. The stories claim that the UN WILL demand that Israel pay compensation.
Instead of being rude to readers who take you to task for errors, why don’t you just admit when you are wrong?
Amazing how false items one small post can observe! None of the “facts” are real. In any case, Israel had been attacked by Lebanese and acted in order to defend itself. All results of the war lay upon the Lebanese’ shoulders. If some has to pay is Lebanon to Israel. But we acquaintance with the ProPALganda machine of Anti Israel war mongers and stay smiling while you’re eating the hat.
And no opprobrium and no opera bellum! The next time Lebaon will be raized from the face of the earth!
To richard
This is in response you yoru comments here and at
link to israelpalestineforum.com
I’m amazed at how you could tell all that much about me just from reading my one post and my comment in your website
I ask you:
You said : “I did some further research and found a far more comprehensive media rpt. on this at The National which is now linked in the post. The reporter confirms the story not only through the Lebances media but through UN sources as well”
But you provide no evidense or reference .
The so called “far more comprehensive media rpt” simply tells the same story as the YNET article. i Quote from this new link “UN leader to demand $1bn damages for Lebanon”
thats a bit different from what you have written in your post .
I would really like you to have the oprtunity to show us all that you do not post unverified infoprmation so, please refer us to a source that could verify your original claim In your post that “a partial bill [b]has been presented [/b]to Israel by the UN”.
If you fail to do it then you must agree with my claim that you post information that is unverified at best, or worse, untrue.
I’m sure you will respond to THIS comment and with a more informative response. one that will advance the conversation without calling each other names as you did on that other forum (troll? garden variety right-wing Israeli?)
Of course you can chose to ignore me or dismiss me as “we’ve seen this before , how boring…”. but that will say more about you and the valadity of your arguments then it would say about me.
Thanks
Lior
@Benjamin Bratt: As usual yr arguments are completely beside the pt. The issue at hand is Israel’s bombing of Beirut’s oil refinery causing a regional environmental catastrophe.
It is part of the Hasbara handbook that you deflect criticism of Israel by noting all the other nasty countries of the world which are supposedly getting away with murder. Only when the world takes care of these bad apples does it have a right to call Israel to task.
What narischkeit!
A warning: your insults have long since passed into snarky ad hominem territory. The next one that does so (which is bound to be yr very next one I’m sure) will consign you to my commenter Hall of Shame: permanent banning.
just wondering if the UN is going to demand Syria pay back the Billions it annualy steal in graft, monopolies, and mafia murder and intimidation? No? how bout that?
Ok surely then Egypt, Saudi Arabia or China may have some small part to pay for in the wholesale genocide they are supporting and protecting in Darfur and prior in Southern Sudan? No? hmmmm…..
Ok ok I got it now… Surely…. Russia is DEFINITELY going to have to pay for the pre-planned and purposefully exectuted actions in Georgia? I mean if ever an example of “overreaction” was to be on display…. welll surely this would be it? (espec in light of reports that Georgia did not bait Russia with an overagressive move as was put out by the Russian propoganda pros in the Kremlin)….
You know and even if the UN misses those for whatever reason…. I for one am certainly glad that there is such a monumental human being as Richard Silverstein to hold that moral compass to Israel and force them to pay billions to Lebanon…. bcs he is only after Peace and Tikun Olam and as long as that is the case whatever hypocrisies may arise are insignificant in comparison….
Just hop aboard and close your mind and enjoy the Kool Aid driven Tikun Olam….
@Benjamin Bratt: Indeed. I have a mousetrap for cant and partisan ideologically motivated rhetoric like that of Lior, Mona & yrself.
lol….. the micetrap blog… he’s loving what he can call “the hasbara crowd” coming into his micetrapped den…
@Mona: I see Mona, Lior & the international hasbara brigade have been monitoring us. Mona, yr losing trust in my blog (really what a laugh) really makes me lose sleep at nights.
It is true the report comes from Lebanese media (which are equally reliable as Israeli media generally), and that Ynetnews in a bit of irresponsible journalistic sloppiness didn’t provide the source. I did some further research and found a far more comprehensive media rpt. on this at The National which is now linked in the post. The reporter confirms the story not only through the Lebances media but through UN sources as well. He also talks directly to a Lebanese gov’t minister. So I think yr claims that the story is dubious are simply out of gas. But we’ll have to wait a month & see whether the UN does what this report claims it will. If it does I’ll expect you to return & admit the error was yours & not mine. Will you?
No, Israel can claim that Hezbollah launched an illegal cross border raid to which it had a right to respond. But a raid is not a war. Israel chose to launch a war.
Besides Israel need not have torched Beirut’s main power plant in order to respond to the cross border raid. This choice was Israel’s & Israel’s alone & so it will have to bear the price for its ill-fated choices.
No, bombing civlian power plants is a violation of international law. And I didn’t realize that you were an Israeli general & so capable of expounding at length about what Israel’s tactics should or should not be.
On a related topic, relatives of victims of Palestinian terrorism are suing the Palestinian authority in US courts. I think Palestinians should react in kind–is there any moral reason why Palestinian victims of Israeli state terror shouldn’t be able to sue? I don’t know what legal issues are involved, but if the PA can be sued, why not any government involved in atrocities?
link
Israel can justifiably claim that 1. Hezbollah started the war. 2. the UN did nothing since Israel’s pullout in 2000 to prevent such an occurence (and therefore they’re also partially liable). 3. the money would just go to Hezbollah so why bother, and 4. that not bombing power plants in times of war to limit the enemy’s capablities – for any country capable of doing so – would be tactically stupid, suicidal and unprecedented.
I predict Lebanon (who Israel will claim backed Hezbollah completely) won’t see a dime coming from the Jewish state.
Where does it say a partial bill has been presented to Israel by the UN? The report quotes Lebanese media and says Ban Ki-moon WILL demand compensation and PLANS to submit a report at month’s end.
Please be more careful with the facts. You have made a number of sloppy errors of late, and I am beginning to lose trust in your blog.
I cant believe how false this post is. all you have to do is read the linked article from an israeli new website (who in turn reports something that the lebanese media reported and who know where that links to…) and see that there is no bill presented to israel by the UN.
“when you lie you kill a part of reality”. I hope the author of the post reads the comment and think twice next time before posting fiction as news.
Disappointed reader
[comment deleted per comment rules]
Without doubt there should be an international system to compensate the destruction caused by an disproportional revenge / war. Naturally Israel will claim that it did not start the war, but considering the countless cross border attacks by Israel to Lebanon that “claim” has little rationality. USA (and others) claimed furiously that Russia used disproportional force in Georgia. The most of those countries did not complain of Israel’s use of force in the Israeli response.
Considering the circumstances in which the Georgian attack happened and how many Russian soldiers died and got wounded (not to mention the civilians), Russia’s answer with force was rather proportional. Israel or USA would in such an event have flattened the whole country. Russia did not.
If Israel would by some miracle pay for the environmental catastrophe it caused, it would probably demand the money from the from the big brother and naturally EU. And the bankrupt US government would have lend the money from Russia and China.
The so called democracies should finally understand that this policy of “do not behave as we do, do behave as we say you have to behave” is rather amusing. USA and Israel are the last countries to order others to respect other nations sovereignty.
Not to worry. Israel can now borrow the money from Fannie or Freddie Mae. The lobby put the pressure on Paulson just for that purpose!!!