To continue the reference to Mrs. Robinson: “Anyway you look at it, you lose.”
Joe Lieberman is in the delicious position of being damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. He’s just announced that he plans to address Hagee’s Christians United for Israel annual conference:
Sen. Joe Lieberman said Wednesday he will address a conference hosted by the Rev. John Hagee, who was spurned by Republican John McCain for his claim that God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.
”I believe that Pastor Hagee has made comments that are deeply unacceptable and hurtful,” Lieberman, I-Conn., said in a statement. ”I also believe that a person should be judged on the entire span of his or her life’s works. Pastor Hagee has devoted much of his life to fighting anti-Semitism and building bridges between Christians and Jews.”
Joe, if you judge Hagee on the “entire span of his life’s work” and don’t declare him a bizarre figure who wants to love Jews to death, then you should have your own head examined. Hagee wants to build bridges between CERTAIN Christians and CERTAIN Jews. He doesn’t want to build bridges to secular Jews (who after all make up the vast majority of American Jews), who he blames for bringing the Holocaust on the Jewish people in an interesting and twisted bit of theological mumbo-jumbo. He doesn’t want to build bridges to secular Israelis. He wants to build bridges to AIPAC, the Israel-First crowd, the Orthodox, and the settlers. Those are the Jews he loves and a relatively slim cross-section of the overall Jewish community.
But as I wrote above, Joe would be damned if he didn’t as well. If he withdrew from speaking, he’d be conceding to those liberals critics he detests so much that their judgment about Hagee’s perniciousness is accurate. He wouldn’t want to do anything like that, oh no. So that puts him in the incredibly awkward position of chumming it up with a preacher with whom John McCain has just broken all ties. If McCain doesn’t feel uncomfortable with all this then we in the political blog world should help him understand it better than he does.
This is a delightful new development for Obama, who can hammer home that John McCain and his strongest ally are still wallowing at the trough of Jew haters (can someone who predicts the death of 2/3 of the world’s Jews in Holocaust II be described any other way?) disguised as lovers of Zion.
If Obama wins in November and the Democrats, as expected, make further gains in the Senate, then poor Joe will become a total political irrelevance. And once the people of Connecticut get the message, perhaps they will finally send Ned Lamont to the U.S. senate, where he belongs.
Dan Sniderman says
“I also believe that a person should be judged on the entire span of his or her life’s works. ” Can someone explain to me why this applies to white Reverends but not African-American Revrends?
You miss the point.
RS’ article is not about the ongoing smear-campaign ..Wright vs. Hagee ,but the very core of Christian-Zionism. Que bono ?
Hagee’s support for Israel is not aimed at Jews or Israel pr. se , but should be regarded as a step to fulfill this bizarre end time prophecy where Jews will accept Jesus as their savior and convert to Christianity,-Aka Christian eschatology
This unholy trinity : Christian Zionists, Jewish Zionist and rightwing regime in Israel is based on deception and shortsighted political gain , but is in nature incompatible ,and as an ardent supporter of Hagee Joe Lieberman has put himself between a rock and a hard place.
Here is what
what Max Blumenthal has to say:
Bill Pearlman says
Spare me the Jewish angst. The only people that get worked up about shit like this are liberal Jews. Hagee is pro-Israel, I honestly don’t care what he believes. Are you that insecure in your Judaism that this has some big impact on you.
Bill has a point……this reminds me of the arguments some Jews have with Catholics when Catholics assert doctrines like “the only route to salvation lies through Jesus”. If this is their belief, I don’t expect them to change it for me….I DO expect them to teach their followers to treat Jews and all other non-Catholics with respect, which they have been doing since Vatican II in 1965. Just as I don’t believe in Catholic doctrine, I also don’t accept Hagee’s eschatology. Howveer, Richard’s fear that because of this extreme theology which supposedly wants some kind of “show-down” war he is going to push Israel into some kind of bizarre foreign policy is unwarranted. No leader in Israel is going to let Hagee or anyone else dictate policy, anymore than they should let the J-Street people dictate it either.
Richard Silverstein says
Anyone who agrees w. anything Bill “Big Schmuck” Pearlman says should know that he wrote to Norman Finkelstein asking why he wasn’t dead yet; and wrote a comment at Phil Weiss’ blog saying it was too bad the Shin Bet didn’t shoot Finkelstein. So if you want to agree w. a total scumbag, that’s yr prerogative.
Bill, I’m so fucking (that may be the only time I’ve ever published that word in this blog, but Bill baby, you deserve it) pissed at you I’m going to ban every single IP address you ever use to access this blog just on principle because you’re such a goddamn asshole. If you can still hold yr head high enough to think you deserve the right to publish a single word here be my guest. But every time you do I’ll remind people what an asshole you are. And if you ever try shit like what you did w. Finkelstein at my blog I’ll report you to the FBI and my local police dept. so fast your head will spin, along with your address & phone # if I can find it.
Bar Kochba: if you don’t know the diff. bet. the Christian idea that the only route to salvation lies through Jesus, & the End Times doctrine that 2/3 of the Jewish race will be murdered in a second Holocaust–well then, I’m not the one to explain it to you. Further, if you think the latter theological concept shows “respect” for Jews, then you have a mighty strange idea of what respect is.
Hagee’s doctrine is as extreme as the most extreme settler pt of view. You apparently don’t think that this is a “bizarre policy.” Most of the rest of us know better. If Bibi comes to power he won’t need to let Hagee dictate settlement policy. Bibi is a virtual extension of Hagee. They might as well channel ea. other.
In Norwegian we have a saying ..something like this : “The less you know, the more certain you are of the little you know”.
To believe that the road to salvation goes through Jesus is not a “Catholic doctrine” , but the very essence of Christian belief..their Creed. What separates protestants , Catholics and evangelicals like Hagee is that the two former denominations preaches of sin and forgiveness, of love towards all men regardless of what or who they worship. End-time Rapturists like Hagee place very little weight on the life on earth, but focus their wet dreams on the life hereafter.
Bearing this in mind, it is easy to understand that Catholics and protestants wants peace in the ME, while the end timers see every escalation of the conflict as a step closer to Armageddon and the fulfillment of their yearnings. Furthermore it explains the alliance between moderate Zionists like Richard and myself, and the misalliance between the military-industrial complex , extreme Zionists and those evangelical fruitcakes.
Amen to that. But you should’nt waste time or energy on people Bill.
paul malfara says
Calm and disciplined. Respectful to each other, even to Bill Pearlman, my misguided brother. .
@bar_kochba132: “No leader in Israel is going to let Hagee or anyone else dictate policy”
They seem quite happy to allow the sliver of their population known by some as “settlers”
Regarding Hagee, we must remember that Allah@bar_kockba132 and brother Bill P. are pragmatists, and as such, they will support anyone who continues to speak out in favor of a blank check for Israel to continue to gobble up land and transfer or ethnically cleanse Arabs.
No surprises there.
A day will may when they realize that their total unwillingness to make any moves toward a just peace has cost Israel dearly, and they will wonder what they thought.
I say to Israel, “Accept the Hamas offer for a ceasefire.
Stop attacking the Gaza Strip. Stop penning up those people like cattle.”
I say to Hamas, “Stop the rockets to Sderot and Ashkelton.” Whether or not your boys are doing it, you have the power in Gaza now. Stop the rockets.
Go for the two-state solution NOW; facts on the ground may make it seem too late already, but I have hope that it’s not too late.
Dan Sniderman says
Daga and others – when you look at Hagee and other extremist fundamentalists and think Richard is being “over-the-top” in his concern about there “End-Times theology” – I suspect that your own “Moderate” (as opposed to “Fundamentalist”) Religious viewpoint is clouding your assessment as to how dangerous these people are.
I suspect you believe that the idea of eschatology is that is something hypothetical and if at all possible – something that occurs far in the future. This is not such a big deal and won’t drive politics, let alone foreign policy. It’s not such a big deal.
But to Haggee and according to 22 percent of the American population, they are CERTAIN that these are events that will occur during their lifetimes. (And the scary thing, another 22 percent believe that “The Rapture” is “Likely” to occur during their lifetime.
Hagee has said as much that he feels the US should start a war with Iran beczuse it advances the cause of leading to Armeggedon. You can be sure that their “support” for Israel is to encourage more military adventures like the 2006 invasion of Lebanon (and we all know how that turned out).
Coinsier this context before deciding that this extreme theology which supposedly wants some kind of “show-down” war he is going to push Israel into some kind of bizarre foreign policy is unwarranted. or not. Guys like Hagee REALLY believe this stuff. They say as much – why shouldn’t we believe them?
I admit that I don’t know much about Hagee, but the last time I was in Jerusalem I saw bus loads of tourists with the John Hagee Ministries logo on it visiting Israel and showing solidarity with us. So how about a little comparison:
Hagee brings friendly tourists and pilgrims to Israel. The left brings rioters to throw stones at soldiers in Bil’in and to demonstrate against the barrier which keeps me and my family safe.
Hagee supports the Israeli right and Jews wishing to return to their historical homeland. The left, like Norman Finkelstein, support Hizballah who want to send Jews somewhere else.
Hagee believes in a harmless fantasy about Armageddon and what not. The Left believes in very harmful fantasies like the United Nations and its institutions which appoint Libyans to be in charge of human rights and Egyptians to regulate nuclear power in the middle east.
Hagee thinks the Nazis were part of a divine plan to send Jews to Israel. The left thinks the Jews ARE Nazis.
The choice should be clear.
Richard Silverstein says
“Friendly???” A minister who predicts that you and 2/3 of yr race will be incinerated in a second Holocaust?? That’s friendly? You truly don’t know much about Hagee & should do a little studying before you embrace his false love of us that is really a death grip.
The Separation Wall doesn’t keep you or yr family safe. Terrorism happens in spite of it. While precious Palestinian land is stolen because of its path.
Hagee supports Israeli Jews not giving up an inch of its supposedly God-given territory. He rants that any Israeli leader who does so should be struck down by God. Norman Finkelstein supported Hezbollah because Israel invaded & devastated Lebanon in a war of aggression. He was right to oppose Israel’s invasion & hundreds of thousands of Israelis now agree that Israel shouldn’t have invaded.
“Harmless fantasy?” That’s what some people said about Hitler after he published Mein Kampf: a little man ranting his fantasies. What harm can he do? Now we know better. But you don’t.
Besides the fact that the UN human rights apparatus & in some other areas is dysfunctional, the international body is NOT a “harmful fantasy.” It plays an important, even vital role in world affairs. Israelis like Amir don’t like the UN because it isn’t cowed as Palestinians are by its might. The UN is still an independent body that doesn’t take orders fr. the IDF or Shin Bet. That is what irks some Israelis about the UN.
That’s another violation of my comment rules. Sorry to say, you’re banned again. That’s a vile statement that doesn’t pass muster in this blog nor in any reasonable debate about the issues.
Norman Weinstein says
So now that Prince of Weasels, Warrior Joe, my mewling, puking right-wing embarrassing co-religionist, endorses a freakish theologian whose take on that stalwart helper of God, Adolph himself, perhaps has only one outrageous equal, that portion of Holocaust theology that, attempting to explain the almost inexplicable, claims that the Jewish nation was punished for its sins against and denial of God. Tell that one to the one and a half million ghosts of Jewish children. One must be in terribly need if he finds he must accept the support of such as the Reverend (sic) Hagee and his fellow travelers, or is it a kind of moral-mental scrofula that requires an elixir of shit from the likes of the porcine Reverend Hagee and Weasel Joe?
Joe Lieberman is big on accusing Democrats of “appeasement” should Obama dare to move to have direct talks with Iran or Cuba- yet Lieberman’s (and McCain’s) relationship to Hagee seems to be based on just that: appeasement. If Lieberman’s accepting and nurturing Hagee’s form of support of Israel/Jews is not encouraging extremism (ie appeasement) what is?
Lieberman recently referring to not “appeasing” Hezbollah and Hamas by talking to them ( quote from an LA Times article) says: