20 thoughts on “Scions of Zion Turn Against Their Fathers – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
task-attention.png
Comments are published at the sole discretion of the owner.
 

  1. Thanks for the story about Begin’s grandson. What you raise here is an important issue and one could write several books about it (i.e. children and grandchildren of right-wing figures in Israel end up on the far Left), but I will attempt to shed some light on this.
    First of all, I am not at all surprised by this. With the exception of Uzi Landau, virtually all the children of “right-wing” ETZEL and LEHI (pre-Independence Jewish Underground groups) who have entered politics have gone over to the Left. All of Olmert’s family, i.e. wife and 4 children are in MERETZ or further Left. Tzippi Livin’s father and mother were legendary ETZEL fighters, both very active for years opposing any territorial concessions, whereas she is in Kadima and really would feel comfortable in Labor or MERETZ (except they would never have her because of her right-wing parents). Tzahi HaNegbi also has moved far to the Left of his mother, LEHI fighter and right-wing MK Geulah Cohen. Dan Meridor’s and Roni Milo’s parents were all in the ETZEL aristocracy and yet years ago Left the Likud (which itself has moved far to the Left) and now feel comfortable hanging around Labor or MERETZ people.

    The question is “why does this happen”? I think you are posting this in order to show that the “right-wing” is ideologically and morally bankrupt and if so, I would PARTIALLY agree with you. The important point is that these people I listed above are all part of the political establishment of the country. If we look at average people, who don’t have a stake in the political or financial establishment, I can give numerous examples of people I know in Israel who went from the Left to the Right. One friend of mine is a former Communist in the US and Canada, today he is a “right-wing Orthodox/religious who is pro YESHA settlement.”. Another fellow I know who has similar ideas was beaten up by the Chicago police at the 1968 Democratic convention. Another Israeli born fellow grew up in a MAPAM kibbutz and today is an active secular FAR-right winger.
    The point I am making is that people from the Right who enter the establishment find that you can go much further within the establishment and make far more money if you politically identify with the Left. The oligarchs who control Israel are largely post-Zionist and to get in their good graces, one needs to parrot the political views they support.
    Secondly, the children of the secular Right-wing politicians (e.g. Tzippi Livni) grew up in an environment that is largely dominated by the secular Ashkenazic Labor Party establishment. Today, much of the grassroots of the political Right is found in the National Religious groups or people from the working class, who are mostly Sefardic. Someone like Tzippi Livni(just using her as an example, I really don’t know that much about her) would grow up in a neighborhood and study in a school where most of the children come from the Ashkenazi Leftist elite, and she would have had little contact with grassroots right-wingers like I described above. Thus, it is easy for someone like that to throw out what they hear from their parents and to fit in with their surroundings.
    Finally, secular Jewish nationalism is essentially a temporary phenomenon. It spoke to a generation that remembered the pogroms of the early 20th century and then the Holocaust. Secular Jewish nationalism was based on the fear of antisemitism and the belief that Jews had no future in Europe or the Middle East so they had to set up their own state. However, with that in past, it is not relevant, in their eyes anymore (whether this is so or not is a separate question). I as an Orthodox/Relgious Jew and Israeli, say that Jews and Judaism are much more than simply a reaction to antisemitism and that ultimately , the Jewish state must be built on a solid Judaic basis, which secular Jewish nationalism can’t provide and which these children of the Right-wing never absorbed. Thus, as I said, this phenomenon doesn’t surprise me, but it shows the need for an invigorated Israeli education system.

  2. The funny is we agree (though not on calling Olmert right wing), both on the situation with the Zionists and the reaction of Israeli police.

    First the police…after Rabin, the police upped their violence level as they ‘learned’ to deal with right wing protesters. They formalized it under Sharon, creating the black-clad Yassim units, trained in the crushing of crowds. Now we’ve seen these tactics broken out for any large political protest the government wants to stop (left or right wing), and the same formalized violence approach to Pali demonstrations.

    Second, the corruption and self-interest serving level of the Israeli government is absolutely chilling. Zionists without Torah have no effective moral compass, and it shows. Or rather, what should be said is that the completely secular Israeli culture has no goals or moral direction, and Zionism is no solution to that. The left wing takes completely humanist goals, which aren’t viable under threat. And the all pervasive goal of money and power shine through. Cost and impact to others doesn’t seem to be much a concern.

    (Note I’m not sparing the ‘religious’ Israeli political parties in these thoughts either. They don’t exist to run the country or maintain a morality either, they exist to get their share of money and power for their constituency, and will do what’s necessary to achieve that goal.)

    It’s no surprise some rats are jumping ship.

  3. people from the Right who enter the establishment find that you can go much further within the establishment and make far more money if you politically identify with the Left.

    That seems like a highly dubious statement to me and anecdotal at best. Do you mean to tell me that more Israeli fatcat entrepreneur/corporate honchos are left wing than right wing? I just don’t buy it. Plus, I think you’re defining “left wing” far differently than I would. Saying that the Likud has drifted to the Left says a lot about how far yr politics are to the right. I’m not sure it accuately describes the Likud’s positions.

    secular Right-wing politicians (e.g. Tzippi Livni) grew up in an environment that is largely dominated by the secular Ashkenazic Labor Party establishment.

    Dubious as well. Israeli politics since 1977, with a few years exception, has been largely dominated by the Likud or center-right governments. In over 30 yrs, Labor has run the govt. for two terms in the 90s. That’s it. So how is the Israeli environment dominated by the ‘Labor Party establishment??’

    I as an Orthodox/Relgious Jew and Israeli, say that Jews and Judaism are much more than simply a reaction to antisemitism

    We fully agree on this & I’ve written this many times. It’s a reason why I’m so disgusted with the Plauts & Dershowitzes of the world who reduce Jewish identity to fear of anti-Semitism and the specter of the Holocaust hovering over our every move as Jews today.

    Though I do not agree w. you that Judaism should inform the State itself more strongly than it already does. I believe that Judaism should better inform the Jews who live in Israel and that they should strengthen their religious identity as Jews. But not that the State should sanction this religion over others.

  4. It’s no surprise some rats are jumping ship.

    I wouldn’t’ call any of the four individuals I wrote about in this post “rats” by any means. They are principled Israelis though you might disagree w. them. Aside fr. that statement, we agree on much of what you wrote in yr comment.

  5. imjudy86. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
    Some additional points. Yosef Burg was a centrist, not a right winger. Avrum Burg’s political life will be remebered for two things 1) being the son of Yosef Burg 2) Eulogizing Amnon Rubinstein (whose still alive and may he live to 120). Israelis to young to remeber Yosef Burg will remember only one thing about Burg. Other than those two things I can’t remember any significant contribution or mark Avrum made to Israeli society. And now he needs somehow to make a buck and so he does what many Jews before him have done. Write a book. Smear Israel. Invoke Hitler or the holocaust. Not very original. Maybe he should take some lessons from Finkelstein. And yes, it is a knife in the back of many Israelis. Specifically those who chose to stay in Israel and work to improve it from here.
    Also, the provocateurs at Bilin are not peace activists. They are demonstrating to tear down the barrier which has done more to keep peace between Israel and West Bank Arbs then anything else (together with IDF and shin bet) so in fact they are anti-peace demonstrators. And they cetainly are not peaceful demonstrators. I suppose the soldier in the clip whose link you provided threw the green paint on himself.

  6. Yosef Burg was a centrist

    I would say he was a principled conservative.

    Other than those two things I can’t remember any significant contribution or mark Avrum made to Israeli society.

    This is ludicrous & says far more about you & yr political views than it says about him. He was the leader of the first soldiers dissenter group, Soldiers Against Silence, which did much to make Israelis aware of the absolute waste of the first Lebanon war. He was speaker of the Israeli Knesset & director of the Jewish Agency. He is one of the most powerful Israeli thinkers & speakers I’ve ever heard. He’s powerful, eloquent, caustic, funny & simply brilliant. Other than that, he’s entirely average as Amir says.

    now he needs somehow to make a buck and so he does what many Jews before him have done. Write a book.

    If he needed to make a buck he would’ve written the book in a far shorter period than the years it took to write this one. And if you want to make a buck there are far more lucrative ways to do so than write a book. There’s absolutely no guarantee that his book will be successful & make any money at all.

    yes, it is a knife in the back of many Israelis.

    I know you’re prepared to hate this book, but don’t you think it might be advisable to read it BEFORE you decide that you do?

    the provocateurs at Bilin are not peace activists.

    This is a lie and a despicable one at that.

    They are demonstrating to tear down the barrier which has done more to keep peace between Israel and West Bank Arbs then anything else (together with IDF and shin bet)

    You conveniently leave aside that there has been a Palestinian cease fire in place which has caused the main militant group, Hamas to ratchet down seriously efforts to infiltrate bombers via the Separation Wall.

    they cetainly are not peaceful demonstrators. I suppose the soldier in the clip whose link you provided threw the green paint on himself.

    Demonstrators are beaten up and seriously injured practically every wk. by the thuggish Border Police. And you think a little spatter of green paint is equivalent to brutal beatings? Have you not heard of what they do there? Don’t you read the Israeli press? Or do you ignore these articles as insipid wastes of yr time? Or do you find yrself unable to believe that Israeli police can beat nonviolent protesters to a pulp? Or do you approve of this behavior? Or do you just not care?

  7. Demonstrators are beaten up and seriously injured practically every wk. by the thuggish Border Police.

    This is completely false. Can you back this up? Rarely are protestors seriously injured. Injuries are usually mild and are due to tear gas inhalation or rubber bullets. The protestors are not demonstrating peacefully. If they were, it would never make the news. They usually disrupt the building of the barrier, remove army roadblocks or enter areas which are beyond the area where they are allowed to demonstrate. And they do this purposely to provoke a confrontation with soldiers so that they can film it and distribute carefully edited film clips to the international press in order to embarase Israel. If all they wanted to do is demonstrate peacefully nobody would bother them. Gush Shalom holds countless peacefull demonstrations with out any police interference. Women in black used to demonstarte every week in Jerusalem.

    And you think a little spatter of green paint is equivalent to brutal beatings?

    There is no equivalence between law breakers and law enforcers. Anyway, you haven’t proven that the demonstartors are routinely brutally beaten. Film coverage I have seen from there did not appear particularly brutal. Unpleasant, sometimes. Nothing compared to what I’ve seen cops in America do like when Rodney King was beaten and other similar film clips. And at Bilin they have cameras all the time. Anyway, I have an idea. Go with a group of 10-15 people to a few on-duty Seattle policemen and shoot paint balls at them. Then tell me their reaction.

    You conveniently leave aside that there has been a Palestinian cease fire in place which has … ratchet down seriously efforts to infiltrate bombers

    And the moon is made of cheese.

  8. Today there were peaceful demonstrations in Qalandiya and Tel Aviv. Nobody beat anybody up. The demonstrators were allowed to express themselves. The streets were even closed down in their honor. Nobody broke the law.
    source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868800.html. This is not the case at bil’in where provocateurs from the anarchists and the ISM come to make trouble.

  9. Can you back this up?

    7 Wounded, 11 Arrested at Anti-Wall Protest May 11, 2007

    the Israeli military established roadblocks and checkpoints on the path of the demonstration and showered protestors with tear gas, sound bombs and rubber-coated steel bullets before they even reached the Wall. Seven people, including a child and a British activist identified only as Alice, were injured in the attack.

    IMEC, June 8, 2007

    Photographer Wounded by Troops, AFP, May 25, 2007
    8 Wounded at Protest, May 18, 2007

    Upon arrival at the gate of the wall, Israeli troops waiting there opened fire on the protesters, injuring 7 of them. One was seriously injured in the leg by a rubber coated bullet and had to be moved to a nearby hospital. Iyad Burnat, one of the organizers of the protest stated told IMEMC that troops reacted with violence towards the protestors.

    “As we arrived at the construction site of the wall, the Israeli soldiers shot several tear gas bombs and rubber-coated metal bullets at us. One of the protestors was hit from a distance of 3 meters and the bullet penetrated his leg. When we attempted to give him first aid, troops beat us and arrested us,” Bornat said.

    IMEC, May 11, 2007

    On April 21st, 2007, in the Village of Bil’in, Mairead Maguire, Nobel Peace Prize laureate from Northern Ireland, was shot with a rubber-coated steel bullet by Israeli Forces
    Dissident Voice, April 21, 2007

    Lymor Goldstine during a demonstration against the wall in the West Bank village of Bil’in. Lymor was shot in the head with a rubber coated steel bullet that penetrated his brain…
    AWalls.org, November, 2006

    I don’t know if I can prove there was violence every single week, but this list is pretty serious stuff. And this is what I found after spending only 45 minutes of Google searching. There’s much more out there I assure you.

    they do this purposely to provoke a confrontation with soldiers so that they can film it and distribute carefully edited film clips to the international press in order to embarase Israel

    I will concede that in many movements of this type there are provocateurs of this type who have agendas that run counter to that of the demonstration organizers. But you are claiming that the organizers themselves are provocateurs of this type & you are dead wrong. Their cause is just and the Wall will eventually come down as all offensive monuments of this sort do.

    Gush Shalom holds countless peacefull demonstrations with out any police interference.

    Gush Shalom provides many of the demonstrators in Bilin. Are you saying then, that they too are provocateurs?

    As for embarassing Israel, seems to me the Border Police do a good enough job of that on their own w/o any provocation. Just do a search here on “Border Police” to discover how many cold blooded, unprovoked murders & torture I’ve covered.

    There is no equivalence between law breakers and law enforcers.

    I don’t know what you mean. Are “law enforcers” allowed to fire rubber bullets that penetrate a peaceful protester’s brain, but a protesters can’t throw paint at a police officer?

    Go with a group of 10-15 people to a few on-duty Seattle policemen and shoot paint balls at them.

    If you plopped them down in Bilin & told them to guard the Wall they might. But here in Seattle our police don’t generally beat up non-violent civilians (except during WTO demonstrations!) & we don’t have cause to shoot paintballs at them.

  10. Richard, you have to realize that the “government” (i.e. the PM, Cabinet and Knesset” is not necessarily the same as “the Israeli Establishment”. It is important to remember the origins of the Israeli economic/political system. From the 1920’s-1977 the dominant political movements were the basically Marxist MAPAI of Ben-Gurion (today’s Labor Party and the Marxist/Leninist MAPAM (today’s MERETZ) which then was pro-USSR and pro-Stalin (This would change after Khruschev’s de-Stalination speech of 1956). They dominated the government , although there were satellite parties like the MIZRACHI (today’s NRP) and the Chaim Weizmann’s General Zionists (part today in Likud, part in Labor). They not only dominated the political scene, but they set up the HISTADRUT and Hevrat Ovdim which dominated the economy. Neither of those political grouping had much use for American-style democracy. They wanted a centrally-controlled society and eonomy. As Ben-Gurion used to say “In Israel the workers rule”, meaning that MAPAI/MAPAM ruled along with their associated ecnomic interests. There were entrepeneurs. but the centrally controlled economy would allocate liscences to various businessmen that insured monopoly-control of various sectors of the economy. Many of these favored businessmen became the fatcats you referred to. As an example of this control and monopolization, recall that up until only 10 years ago the Shekel currency was not convertible., Thus the gov’t would give favored companies the right to exchange dollars for shekels or vice versa at favorable rates. People who tried to compete fairly were simply driven out of business. Thus, to this day, the Israeli economy is dominated by monopolies and cartels which force Israeli consumers to pay highly inflated prices for goods. (see articles by Daniel Doron over the last few years in the Jerusalem Post).
    Today, 15 families in Israel control 80% of the national assets. THEY ARE THE REAL POWER IN ISRAEL. For example, Likud MK Danny Naveh recently left the Knesset and went to work for Nohi Danker who is from one of these 15 families. Obviously Naveh was being rewarded for looking out for Danker’s intersts while he was in the Knesset.
    In addition to these wealthy oligarchs, the MAPAI/MAPAM political establishment made sure to make the important organs of the state, particularly those coercive arms of the state such as the SHABAK, Supreme Court, Army, Police and state controlled electronic media with people loyal to them. For example, almost all members of the Supreme Court are MERETZ or LABOR supproters, even those these two parties are only a 1/4 of the Knesset. This is because, unlike in the US where the President nominates the Justices, and the Senate confirms, giving the people’s elected representatives a say in who is ruling them, in Israel, the Justices themselves pick their own successors, and the people’s elected representatives, the Knesset has virtually no say. The heads of the police, army, etc, EVEN THROUGHOUT THE PERIOD THE LIKUD WAS IN POWER were almost always from the Labor/MERETZ establishment.
    Thus, I maintain that today, partisan political activity in Israel has ended. There is no real difference between any of the parties. It was the “tough, right-wing Likud under Sharon” that destroyed Gush Katif. A majority of MK’s from Likud supported this in spite of the fact that they ran in the elections on a platform promising exactly the opposite. The LIkud MK’s do not represent their voters, they represent the interests of the oligarchs in the Establishment who have bought them off. It can be done subtly, for example, offering a job to an “right-wing” MK’s brother-in-law in return for a vote the way the oligarch wants.
    I don’t claim that all the oligarchs want the same things but , by and large, these “fat cats” support the Labor/MERETZ positions, have little affinity for Zionist values and are interested making money as opposed to the traditional Zionist values of security, settlement and aliyah.
    Of course, if too many of their workers are being killed, they will support harsh military action (e.g. the Lebanon II War). Also I don’t believe that the Prime Minsiter is without disgression in matters, after all, businessmen don’t have time to deal in politics, but when an important decision is made, like support bringing Arafat and his terror gangs to Israel or to destroy Gush Katif, NO ONE including what you may consider the “far right” will stand in their way. Today, although Netanyahu will babble about “being tougher” with Iran than Olmert is, if you look carefully at the Likud’s platform, it is identical to that of Kadima or Labor….giving up Judea/Samaria and the Golan in return for “peace”. In fact it is easier for the Likud to destroy settlements than it is for the Left. That is why I will not vote in the next election,…as far as I am concerned the Likud must be kept out of power because they would give up more than the Left, as odd as that may seem to you. Do not take seriously what the politicians in Israel say. Look at what they do. The Likud gave away Sinai, destroyed Yamit and destroyed Gush Katif.

  11. On gush shalom’s web site they claim to remove army roadblocks, fill trenches dug by the army, block the path of tractors, rebuild houses demolished by the army and interfere with the building of the barrier. These are not peaceful demonstrations. This is deliberate sabotage of the important work the army is doing keeping away terrorists from my buses, shopping centers and restaurants. At the anarchists website they show a table listing the number arrets, convictions, acquitalls and plea bargains among their members. They are law breakers and they flaunt this. They too are not “peaceful demonstraters”.
    I claimed that: “Rarely are protestors seriously injured. Injuries are usually mild and are due to tear gas inhalation or rubber bullets.” and you provided links proving it. Thank you. You found one seriously injured person. If you searched harder you may two or three more. Including a soldier who lost an eye to a rock thrown by one of your non-violent demonstrators.

  12. This is deliberate sabotage of the important work the army is doing keeping away terrorists from my buses, shopping centers and restaurants.

    Ah, now you’ve disappointed me. I thought I was finally going to get you to admit that peace activisits might actually be good citizens.

    When a citizen uses their duly constituted rights to protest actions by their government that violate international law & even the norms & values of their own society, then this is not sabotage, but civic responsibility. Thank God my own fellow citizens did this during the Vietnam war, Iraq war & civil rights movement. Thank God the Catholics of northern Ireland did this during British rule there. Thank God, Blacks did this during apartheid era S. Africa. Thank God, Chinese did this at Tianamen Square. In ea. of these instances, people broke the law, were arrested, convicted & sentenced to prison–even died as well. Now, we look back on many of them as heroes of conscience. And thank God the Israeli peace movement does this in Israel & the Territories today.

    Or do you not recognize that there are times when a government or military has lost control of itself & deserves to be reigned in by those who maintain a saner head? In our own Pirke Avot it says: “In a place where there is no human being, endeavor to be one.”

    you provided links proving it. Thank you.

    I’m sorry but you come across as a real jerk here. Someone was shot with a rubber bullet & received a brian injury. Because a rubber bullet caused the damage does that discount it?? I told you I’d only spent 45 minutes searching in Google & found scores of incidents of which I largely provided violent ones only over the last month. I challenge YOU to do a search going back 2 1/2 yrs to the beginning of the demonstrations & then tell me how manny were injured & how many seriously.

    Better yet, I will contact those very same insidious, lawbreaking saboteurs & ask them for the numbers. Then we’ll see. And I’ll ask them to break out minor fr. serious injuries. And I’ll ask them to include any serious injuries to IDF troops. Then yr snarkiness will be given the lie.

  13. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat for a white man. Her Palestinian counterpart blew up the bus killing most of its passengers. That’s the difference. The barrier is necessary to reduce the level of violence on both its sides. When the situation allows (in 10 years, 50 years, who knows) it will come down. Maybe the palestinians need a barrier between Fatah and Hamas to help them with their cease fire. Today 9 Gazans were killed including a father and two children and a couple of days ago three were killed, in spite of a cease fire. The barrier is a non-violent form of defence which saves lives and will contribute to forming the conditions necessary for negotiations. Build it faster and build it taller. Then when it is no longer necessary tear it down. I’ll bring the champagne (non-alcoholic, out of respect).

  14. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat for a white man. Her Palestinian counterpart blew up the bus

    That has nothing to do w. the pt. I was making which was that Israelis are legitimately protesting against a Wall which violates international law & illegally expropriates Arab land. That is an entirely proper form of citizen participation.

    There is no more proof that the Wall prevents terrorism than that Hamas’ turning away fr. suicide bombings as a tactic has done so.

    The barrier is a non-violent form of defence

    I don’t consider a barrier built on land that is not Israel’s which expropriates the land of those who are not citizens of Israel & prevents tens of thousands of others fr. being able to earn their agricultural living as being “non-violent.” It causes great disruption among its Palestinian victims & could just as easily have been built on the Green Line. If it had, you wouldn’t hear me complaining about it nor defending anyone protesting against it.

  15. do you not recognize that there are times when a government or military has lost control of itself & deserves to be reigned in by those who maintain a saner head?

    Thank God, Chinese did this at Tianamen Square.

    There are oponents of the barrier in the press, in the knesset. Opponents of the barrier can petition the supreme court and win as they have in the past. They have free speech, they can demonstrate, make posters, newsletters, blogs internet. I’m willing to bet they mostly come from affluent families. So they are not dispossessed or disenfranchised and they have access to all the tools available in a democratic society to protest and therefore there is no justification for them to engage in the illegal and dangerous activities like tearing down fences or confronting soldiers that they do. Your comparison to China just goes to show what a confused person you are regarding this worlkd that we live in.

    If it had, you wouldn’t hear me complaining about it nor defending anyone protesting against it.

    I wish I could accept that assertion at face value, but your sympathy for the fabricated Hezzballah claim to Har Dov (Sheeba Farms) after Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon, causes me to doubt this this.

  16. There are oponents of the barrier in the press, in the knesset. Opponents of the barrier can petition the supreme court and win as they have in the past. They have free speech, they can demonstrate, make posters, newsletters, blogs internet. I

    In every protest movement there are diff. sets of tactics used. Some are moderate, some radical. Some peaceful, some more strident. The Occupation is so evil & so necessary to defeat that I would never limit myself to a single strategy or set of tactics in opposing it.

    I’m not generally in favor of law breaking & certainly not in favor of violence. I would much rather be sinned against than sinning. But when something is morally repugnant I’m not willing to take off the table direct-action against the Wall as exhibited by those who demonstrate in Bilin.

    I wish I could accept that assertion at face value

    I know we have disagree mightily in the past, but I always tried to think of you as someone showing basic good faith. The fact that you do not accept my assertion at face value indicates that you think I’m either a liar or two-faced. Either way, I don’t find that a good faith response which disappoints me. If I say something I mean it. If you don’t believe it it’s your problem, not mine.

    your sympathy for the fabricated Hezzballah claim to Har Dov (Sheeba Farms) after Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon, causes me to doubt this this.

    You mischaracterize my position. I’m not in favor of any specific disposition of Shebaa Farms. I’m in favor of RETURNING it. I don’t care to whom. But return it to either Syria or Lebanon as part of an overall peace agreement. And do it now rather than later.

    I see that my superior reasoning has left you speachless.

    Sorry it took me longer than usual to publish yr comment & my reply. I’ve been dealing w. “stuff” related to my blog including the Jewish Forward profile of my cyber-bullying experience. I’ll have a post out on that tomorrow.

  17. I don’t mean to call you a liar or two faced. It’s just that sometimes its hard to predict the future. When the idea of withdrawing from Lebanon was proposed I was for the most part in favor. The reasoning was that Israel and Lebanon do not have a border conflict and after Israeli withdrawal life would return to normal on both sides. Barak purposely asked the UN to mark the border. Who would’ve guessed then that the Hizballah would use the Sheba farms as a pretence for further aggression. It’s not surprising, but it’s not something that was thought of. The disappointmenmt came from the UN and other nations that did not take a more aggresive stand against this false claim. Now, how can I be so sure that the Lebanese claim to Sheba farms is bogus? Well, Israel conquered Sheba farms along with the Golan Heights in 1967. Lebanon wasn’t even a part of the war. If Israel had conquered Lebanese territory, don’t you rhink they might have said something about it at the time. Or in 1982 when Israel extended Israeli law to the Golan Heights and to Sheba farms. Now, even if Israel built the fence on the pre-1967 territory, the Palestinians would find a half a dozen or more “Sheba Farms” to protest against. I don’t know what or where but I trust the Palestinians to find them and their usual friends to support them. In fact, all of Israel is one big (not so big, actually) Sheba Farm to the Palestinians. And frankly, I don’t know what your position will be on these issues, but I suspect you would have some degree of sympathy to their claims. Since we’re talking about a theoretical situation, it is not something that I can prove or which will ever materialize, since Israel will not be rebuilding the wall on pre-1967 territory. No disrespect intended.

  18. I don’t know what your position will be on these issues

    I will never support a territorial claim of Palestinians within the Green Line. Though I do feel Israel must negotiate over the Right of Return even if it means providing financial compensation to victims & allowing a selected number (agreed to in collaboration w. Israel) to actually return.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Share via
Copy link