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Tags: Barack Obama, gaza flotilla, Israel Defense Forces, Mavi Marmara
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Richard,
Here is a link which has a picture of Furkan Dogan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/03/furkan-dogan-us-citizen-k_n_599173.html
Lawrence of Cyberia has compiled short bios with pics of the 9 Turkish people who were murdered, including Dogan.
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html
Here is the story of two Sydney Morning Herald journalists, Paul McGeough and Kate Geraghty, who were with the flotilla. It is not clear to me whether they were on the boat where the massacre took place.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/prayers-tear-gas-and-terror-20100603-x7ew.html?autostart=1
The sound quality is pretty bad.
Where is the public outrage over an American citizen being executed by the IOF? Nothing but deafening silence….
Lifelong American resident Rachel Corrie’s death did not provoke outrage from Americans, so don’t expect a strong response to the death of one Turkish man because he had a US-issued birth certificate and passport.
Although i gladly followed this site during the Anat Kam mess, and will keep following it (it being a usually good independent news source), I have to say i am deeply disappointed by what you have been writing during the last few days.
I think anyone will agree IDF screwed up and handled the whole operation badly. but from the start of this incident, you have pretty much blamed them for deliberately killing citizens, lying about the “peace activists” violence (when more than a few pieces of footage showing just that violence are widely available online), and now, based on who knows what, you are practically blaming soldiers for the murder of innocent civilians close range, practically executing them.
It shouldn’t be to much of an effort to take into account that the whole fight was close range. In fact, if the soldiers did as IDF claims they were ordered (shoot only when at immediate risk) then some of the shootings had to be from close range. This doesn’t mean what you said is completely impossible , but the doubt is more than reasonable, and making such a serious accusation, without any information of what actually happened, is far from legitimate.
Whoever sent the commandos on the boat, one by one, with only paint-guns and bullets (nothing in between) is at least partly responsible (by negligence) for what happened. but this doesn’t make the soldiers murderers, nor does it make a mob innocent. This has nothing to do with the atrocity that is the occupation, the (perhaps) noble intentions of the flotilla organizers, or the diplomacy of Barack Obama.
When people on the boat decided to attack the soldiers (look at the footage), They made their choice. At that point they stopped being peace activists, and became an angry mob, against a group of trained, armed, highly outnumbered men. Nothing good could come of that, but the blame can hardly be put on one side alone.
Finally, please read the article by Paul McGeough, the link provided by Arie Brand.
Amongst others, he says:
“On hearing the machines, activists on the upper decks rushed to the top level of the ship – grabbing the commandos even before they landed, disarming them; beating them until, according to some who were present, leaders demanded the Israelis not be harmed; but in one case, one of the Israelis was hurled from one deck of the ship to the next.”
it seems that incredibly well thought out comment was more or less ignored, know that at least I agree with you
I’ll tell you what I would do if I were in Obama’s place.
Demand from Israel an immediate investigation of the events that took place on the board of Mavi Marmara and other ships of the flotilla, an investigation to be conducted jointly by Israeli, US and Turkish authorities (possibly with participation of authorities from other countries whose citizens were involved). Demand that the results of the investigation be published. Demand an immediated release of all the footage made on and in the vicinity of the ships, both by the IDF and by the flotilla participants. Failing these demands, Obama is a coward in my book.
“Yes, I wasn’t there and can’t confirm with absolute certainty that this is indeed what happened. ”
“Barack Obama, do you let U.S. citizens be murdered in cold blood by the IDF? ”
so richard, you admit that you cannot confirm what happened, yet you are sure that the teen was killed in cold blood?
You quoted what I wrote so you know what level of certainty I attribute to my remarks.
an here is who they have wanne have next: an Israeli facebook group calling to execute MK Haneen Zuebi:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/yrwslym/lhwzy-lhwrg-t-hk-hnyn-zwby/121725647863227?__a=5
RE: “Will it [Dogan's death] spur Obama on to do the right thing–or anything? Your guess is as good as mine.” – R. Silverstein
MY GUESS:
…A mark, a yen, a buck, or a pound
A buck or a pound
A buck or a pound…
RE: “Will it [Dogan's death] spur Obama on to do the right thing–or anything? Your guess is as good as mine.”
FROM JERRY HABER, 06/02/10:….And the Obama White House has once again shown that on Israel it is continuing the policies of the previous administration; it doesn’t even talk tough anymore. And why? Well, there are several reasons. Israeli newspapers point to the need to cultivate and retain pro-Israel fundraisers and donors, and an election year is not the best time to go head-to-head with Israel. So the official reaction is to deplore the deaths, not to condemn anybody, and to ask for time to study the situation. I would like to think that this will end in November, but it won’t. When Rahm Emanuel takes a bar mitzvah trip to the Occupied Golan Heights with his son, you know that there is something much more basic. Obama was elected with a lot of Jewish – oops, I mean, pro-Israel money, and don’t expect to see anything new, there. After the election, maybe some tough talk, maybe a peace plan, but a lot of backtracking after that. Every year is an election year…
ENTIRE POST – http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2010/06/george-w-obama-and-israeli-spin-machine.html
ALSO SEE: Reid statement defends Israel, essentially blames activists for their deaths, By Ron Brynaert, 06/04/10
(excerpt) Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) is facing a bruising battle this election year, and probably needs all the help he can get. According to Maplight.org, the Senate Majority Leader has received $179,640 in pro-Israel campaign contributions.
Following the lead of the Obama administration, and nearly all elected US politicians on both sides of the aisle, Reid is firmly defending Israel’s interception of a “freedom flotilla” headed for Gaza, which resulted in the death of at least nine activists, including a US citizen, based on the grounds that the country has a right to defend itself.
Despite widespread condemnation from the world, and even from elements of the US media, few Democrats are willing to go against Israel, more for the sake of donations from AIPAC than votes, as many liberal Jewish Americans side with the activists…
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0604/reid-statement-defends-israels-essentially-blames-activists-deaths/
P.S. “Money” ~ Liza Minnelli, Joel Grey (02:56) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q
Uh, USS Liberty?
Um, IDF killings of US citizens: Rachel Corrie, anyone? Also, Amcits in Palestine and Lebanon during IDF assaults.
Kevin MacDonald says: Jake Tapper, a reporter for ABC News writes that “there won’t be any daylight between the US and Israel.” The rationale? A senior administration official says “The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure.”
Of course, that’s nonsense. Israeli security has nothing to do with it. The reality is that Israeli aggression is possible only because Israel understands that the US is its poodle and that the US will work on its behalf in the UN and elsewhere, no matter what Israel does. The Israel Lobby is ultimately to blame, meaning ultimately the influence of Jewish money on the political process.
AIPAC’s spin on this is an amazing piece of propaganda. AIPAC’s article is headlined, “Radical Hamas Supporters Beat, Stab Israeli Soldiers“–a breathtaking lack of context. The ADL said pretty much the same thing, calling the flotilla “a deliberate provocation against Israel.”
From Israel’s point of view, “the government appeared anxious to make an example of this six-ship flotilla — the largest effort to date to break the blockade of Gaza — to show the world that it would not tolerate efforts to break the blockage, international condemnation notwithstanding.” The main Israeli talking point, apparent in the AIPAC press release and the ADL statement, is that they had offered to unload the cargo at the Israeli port of Ashdod where it would be shipped overland to Gaza.
But that doesn’t square with the common understanding that Israel has erected a barrier of red tape for getting supplies into Gaza. A 2009 Christian Science Monitor report pointed to delays and arbitrary exclusions and stated that around 25% of the pre-blockade supplies were getting into Gaza. Another CSM article from June 2009 pointed to growth stunting in Palestinian children.
Despite Israel’s claims, there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
Israel’s actions will likely make it far more difficult to develop a consensus against Iran, and that’s all to the good. It will also greatly increase the cost of the Israeli-American alliance, as the US attempts to shore up support for Israel in the teeth of moral outrage around the world. That may well result in some push back here, as happened recently with the statement by General David Petraeus that Israeli policies oppose vital US interests in the Middle East. (He later denied it, doubtless under pressure.) Even Meir Dagan, the head of the Mossad, acknowledges that Israel is becoming more and more of a burden to the US.
Israel’s supporters in the US never tire of playing the role of innocent victim. They will continue to do so, as indicated by the statements of AIPAC and the ADL. But such rhetoric is so far out of touch with reality that at some point politically aware Americans must realize that US support for Israel is based on nothing more than Jewish power with no moral justification at all. That doesn’t mean that the lobby will lose its power, but at least we will all know that it’s about power, and can’t be intellectually justified.
In turn, that may well help Americans to see Jews in a more realistic light–not as morally blameless victims, but as cynical and ruthlessly self-interested ethnic actors . The egregious double standard in which Jews profess to be dedicated to democracy, ethnic tolerance and human rights in the US while supporting a vicious ethnonationalism in Israel will be more and more difficult to hide.
And that should give us hope, because the collapse of the Jewish position commanding the moral high ground is a critical support for the multicultural left in America and throughout the West.
“Furkan Dogan: Perhaps the first time in its history that the IDF has killed a U.S. citizen”
Hmmm. Not exactly, Richard..34 sailors murdered in the attack on the USS Liberty. Not to mention Rachel Corrie and and a score of other activists. The last (before Dogan) was a young man who was killed by a gas canister aimed at his forehead during a Ni’lin non-violent protest.
If you mean Tristan Anderson, he is not dead, but is severely disabled and still hospitalized more than a year later. You may have gotten him confused with Bassem Abu Rahma, a young Palestinian killed last year by a teargas canister fired into his chest.
You’re right about Corrie though they didn’t put a bullet through her brain as they did this poor boy.
Richard, there are reports that he died of four bullets to his head, and one to his chest. I’m waiting for an explanation as to how someone manages to catch five bullets from soldiers supposedly carrying paintball guns. It sounds to me like someone wanted to make sure this boy was dead.
[...] writes the popular blog Tikun Olam (a Hebrew phrase that means “repairing the world”), wonders aloud if President Obama will do the right thing in response to Dogan's death: Barack Obama, do you [...]
[...] Silverstein blogs on a NYT story that appears to have been altered judging by google searches. This is about a 19 year [...]
[...] writes the popular blog Tikun Olam (a Hebrew phrase that means “repairing the world”), wonders aloud if President Obama will do the right thing in response to Dogan’s death: Barack Obama, do you [...]
An article in ‘Hürriyet’ writes as he had an American passport, his name was not on the list of Turkish citizens who were dead. The family came to Istanbul to meet him and learned that he was dead. As for how many bullets was fired, the press also has conflicting information (4 to 6). He was to be buried today after the Friday prayer in Kayseri.
Here is a link for his photos from a Turkish site:
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36472&p=2&rid=2
uncle joe mccarthy:
As he arrived in a body bag, I guess there were enough number of bullets fired. I do not really know -nor care- how many bullets are sufficient to convince you that someone has been killed in cold blood, but the soldiers that could get away with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams
will certainly will get away with Furkan’s murder, thanks to people like yourself.
Your report about this man having been shot 4 times in the head is wrong. You are disseminating more lies whose purpose it is to incite against the IDF (I concede that you were repeating lies others made and not making them up yourself). The truth can easily be found using a Google search with his name and the word autopsy.
Just wait for my next blog post. It’ll be a killa for you. Not only was Dogan shot at close range & in the head 4 times ACCORDING TO AUTOPSY REPORTS, but almost all the other dead were all killed execution style. This post is really gonna burn ya up.
The reports do say they were repeatedly hitting soldiers with clubs and metal rods, do they not? It only makes sense for the killings to be close ranged.
Unless you are suggesting the IDF had them lined up defenseless and shot in the head.
Actually, I am suggesting something similar to that.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/08-autopsy-finds-gaza-ship-dead-peppered-with-bullets-report-ts-02
According to the autopsy reports, many of the victims were shot in the back of the head.
No, I’m suggesting they were wounded & immobile & then shot execution style. The autopsy should show which shots killed. Remember most were shot in the head at very close range. I’m betting those were the kill shots.
I think you’ll find that a lot of WASP types don’t count a Turk as a real American.
I think you’ll find that a lot of Americans regardless of skin color do not regard a dual citizen raised in the country of his foreign parents as a real American because the US is a real country with real people living together, not just a patch of real estate with government offices that hand out identification documents. It’s not a matter of ethnicity but of community. Had Furkan Dogan grown up as an American in the US, the media would have spotlighted his life by interviewing classmates, friends, teachers, and neighbors, and showing photos of young Dogan playing sports or on family vacations. To wit, the only thing that distinguished Dogan from the other Turkish casualties is his New York birthplace and his blue passport. No racism to see here, folks.
Seeing that Turks are white people, I’m not sure of what you mean by racism, but I would definitely wonder about the American prejudice against Muslims being a factor, and of course this is helped along by Netanyahu and his ilk mouthing off about terrorists and so-called Islamic extremists being on the Mavi Marmara.
I think you’ll find that a lot of Americans don’t count a Turkish national born of Turkish parents and raised in Turkey as a real American although he does enjoy certain legal rights as dual citizen. So racist we Americans, mistaking ourselves as a people living together when in fact, we are defined soley by our eligibility to obtain a US passport.
This ‘boy’ was the same age (19) as Gilad Shalit when the latter was captured.
Of course I doubt Richard ever referred to Shalit as a ‘boy’ at the time.
The correct term is young adult.
Gilad Shalit is not dead. He is very much alive. Dead 19 yrs olds may be called “boys” since they have their whole life ahead of them & it has been wrenched from them. Gilad Shalit has lost 4 yrs of his life which is a very bad thing. But he will have a life, hopefully a long one. That’s more than can be said for this Turkish lad.
Any dead 19 (or 18) year old Israeli you referred to as boy/girl?
I’m losing patience. Get off it & stop being an ass.
In fairness to Richard, the Obama administration has declared 26-year-olds to be helpless children for the purpose of their parents’ medical insurance, so that might explain it.