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You've come a long way, Israel baby--welcome gay porno (Lucas Entertainment)
If Tablet Magazine is to be believed, the Jewish world has come a long way baby because the gay porno industry has made the first pornographic film with an all-Israeli/all-Jewish cast. As strange and disturbing as I find this article on many levels, it is this passage which disturbs me most:
This week, Michael Lucas is making what he calls “a bold move to promote Israeli culture and tourism.” His website extols the virtues of a country rich with natural wonders, intriguing museums, liberal politics, and friendly locals. More than a biblical theme park, Lucas’s Israel is a tourist destination, a place where lovely beaches beckon and muscle-bound men have sex with each other.
Lucas—a porn actor and director, and founder of the New York-based gay porn production company Lucas Entertainment—sees his new film Men of Israel as a tool, if you will, to promote tourism, at least among gay men.
Make no mistake, this is not a one-off promotion by an odd-ball Jewish gay pornographer. This is part of an orchestrated hasbara campaign spearheaded by groups like Stand With Us, who promoted Israel during the latter’s Gay Pride Festival as a natural ally of gays around the world. The angle for SWU (and there always IS an angle with groups like this) is to trumpet the alleged homophobia of Palestinian/Arab society compared to the alleged freedom and tolerance of “western” Israel towards a gay lifestyle. Never mind that Israel is less tolerant of gays than the average western country. That matters little for the hasbaraniks of SWU.
Articles like the one in Tablet make clear the danger of choosing such bedfellows for Israel. Remember the last major ‘heartthrob’ Israel embraced? Those evangelicals like John Hagee, who supports a nuclear attack against Iran and claims the Holocaust was a message from God to Jews to become Zionists?
Does anyone in their right mind think that Israel will benefit from a close association with the gay porn industry? And what was the Tablet editor who commissioned this article thinking? This is a newsworthy story? Bizarre, disturbing–yes. But newsworthy? But hey, I’m not complaining. This blog thrives off chronicling the bad judgment of some of my fellow Jews.
Interesting to note that the film has been promoted by those connoisseurs of the gay lifestyle, Jeffrey Goldberg and James Kirchick (who Eric Alterman’s calls Marty Peretz’s “mini-me”). Goldberg takes the typically hasbarist line of comparing Israel’s supposedly tolerant attitude toward gays with the Arab world’s supposedly homophobic approach (I Bet Ahmadinejad Wouldn’t Let This Happen in Iran). This is why Goldberg is the Israeli foreign ministry’s favorite “liberal” (I use the term VERY loosely) Jewish journalist.
Tags: jeffrey goldberg, stand-with-us
The Economist mentions the allegation (and also says the Palestinian security services do the same), as do some other places, but there is no evidence for it, and it all seems to be based on hearsay (presumably from the Palestinian lesbian NGO). I certainly don’t think this would meet the standard of proof required here for ‘pro-Israel’ or ‘anti-Palestinian’ stories.
Since when do Haaretz articles stating a phenomenon exists become “hearsay?” You have interesting standards of evidence.
Can you send me the link to the Haaretz piece? I looked on the first three pages of the websearch you sent and couldn’t find it.
Also – to be clear. Is the principle now that if it appears in Haaretz it’s true?
Let’s just say the principle is that it’s a lot more likely to be true than if Alex Stein claims it’s hearsay based on his limited internet searches. But yes, Haaretz is quite a credible source as far as I’m concerned. But I usually judge the credibility of even individual Haaretz reports based on the reporter’s individual reputation. Some reporters there are more credible than others.
I think JTA should suffice, no?
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/articles/2004/01/15/news/israel/nseek0116.txt
There is of course the standard Shin Bet denial accompanying this statement. You can choose to believe it if you like.
Do you have a link to the Haaretz article dealing with the issue? I couldn’t find it in the websearch you linked to.
Thanks.
Does this mean there is no Haaretz article on the issue?
This is what the article says on the matter –
“Human-rights observers suggest that Palestinian homosexuals, fearing for their lives if exposed, are especially vulnerable to Shin Bet blackmail. But a veteran handler of collaborators, Menachem Landau, denied this.
“Gays are already treated with suspicion in Palestinian society,” Landau said in an interview. “So what good are they for covert work?”
This is hardly enough to draw sweeping conclusions on the issue, unless the standard of evidence is that in dissing Israel it only needs to be suggested to be true. Sometimes a little agnosticism can be very useful, no matter what our ideological beliefs.
I’m not drawing a “sweeping conclusion.” I’m drawinng a totally appropriate conclusion that a JTA reporter, acknowleding credible human rights sources concedes the Shin Bet blackmails Palestinian gays to recruit them to spy for Israel. You may draw or not draw any inference fr. this you please.
The JTA reporter hasn’t “suggested” this is true. He has stated that human rights observers state that it is a fact. You can twist the “suggested” in the article in any which way you choose (& you will). But just about everyone reading this post & comment thread but you will read that word the way I do. I happily grant you minority status.
I read the Haaretz report but cannot find the link now. I will eventually find it.
I’m sorry Richard, but the reporter clearly doesn’t concede anything of the sort. S/he merely states that “human rights observers suggest,” and then quotes an Israeli source challenging that suggestion.
“But just about everyone reading this post & comment thread but you will read that word the way I do.” Well if so that’s because of a quite blatant double standard when it comes to assessing the deeds of Israel as opposed to the deeds of others. In this case, the lifting of one paraphrased one-line quote in a JTA article as evidence that “Israel blackmails Palestinian gays.” If we were talking about Hamas, this would be rejected as insufficient (which is fine by me, by the way, in certain cases – including this one – a bit of humble agnosticism is to be encouraged). As ever, double standards.
“Suggest” is a declarative statement. Human rights groups esp. those dealing w. the IP conflict are not in the habit of making vague, generalized statements not backed up by hard evidence. If you choose to view it a weaker statement than that you’re being disingenuous. But I suggest that you contact the reporter since this issue is so important to you & ask him to provide the human rights sources he quoted. That is the only way you can definitively debunk this phenomenon.
You’ve stated in approx 90% of all yr comments that I use a double standard & that boring, stupid, meaningless phrase pisses me off. If you can’t come up with some other phrase in future comments & keep repeating this one ad nauseam, you will bore me so silly that I may declare that phrase for you specifically off limits here.
This particular subject of Shin Bet blackmail of Palestinian gays is now done for you. Do not write anything further on it. If I find the Haaretz story or other credible sourcing I will provide it to you.
“‘Gays are already treated with suspicion in Palestinian society,’ Landau said in an interview. ‘So what good are they for covert work?”
Not much good maybe if they are “out”, but pretty useful I would imagine if they are not, which covers most gay men in the Arab world. Gay men in the Arab world tend not to develop mannerisms, modes of dress, grooming, etc., that will identify them as gay, so they can remain credibly “closeted” for a lifetime if they so choose, and most do, even in more open societies such as urban Syria, or the former Iraq. I would imagine that in Palestine, which is far more conservative, the overwhelming majority of gay men remain in the closet.
The issue of intelligence gathering techniques is irrelevant. The shin bet will use anything they can against a person if they think it is to their benefit. They would pressure a person who had an extra-marital heterosexual relation, who visited a prostitute, used drug use, had debt and yes homosexuality. It has nothing to do with the status of homosexuals in Israel. I find it hard to believe that this is particularly unique to Israel when carrying out intelligence operations outside of their country proper.
Not so fast. If it were discovered that a CIA opeative used gay blackmail to recruit an agent it would be a big scandal here if it were ever discovered. The fact that its SOP in Israel is an indication first of the supermacy of the intelligence services in Israeli life and second, the fact that the Shin Bet is only too happy to exploit such issues for its own benefit. Even for an intelligence agency there should be red lines. This apparently isn’t one of them & this shows that Israeli gays do not have enough acceptance within Israeli society to stop such practices.
Richard, this is rather ironic given that I sent you this – http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2009/7/28. Has it been a major scandal?
I have no idea what your point is. Are you saying that because the U.S. military violated the U.S. constitution and spied on non violent peace activists that this is somehow equivalent to the Shin Bet blackmailing Palestinian gays?
Well it’s a big story that didn’t become a big scandal. The examples are obviously very different, but I’m gently trying to challenge your assumptions about what would or wouldn’t become a great scandal in the US.
The statement by Ishai is relevant but not very important. Go to Tel-Aviv’s gay community and ask people what bothers them in Israel as homosexuals. I’ll wager not one would say “well three years ago Ishai said homosexuality was disease”. No, that statement by Ishai is only important to people who look for any excuse to criticize Israel. The typical “hasbara buster”, after googling, will discover that quote, and suddenly that is the most important standard for judging the status of homosexuals. And since what he said wasn’t that hateful, “hasbara busters” will always exagerrate what he said. Adding “scum”, turning a single interview to “Keeps saying” and making ridiculous analogies.
Kind of you to offer a wager, but a tad presumptuous to speak on behalf of Israel’s gay community & what does or does not bother them. If I were gay I know that every national politician who ever made such a comment would be on my personal political radar for much longer than 3 yrs after speaking in such an odious fashion. The only way he would fade fr. my radar is if he changed his views & acknowledged this which Yishai has not done.
I’d prefer you ban me than tell me to shut up when I still feel I have something to add. Your choice.
You haven’t done or written anything that would make me do so. But when you write multiple posts on the same issue & repeat yrself & yr arguments several times over it becomes tiresome. And I include myself in that because I prob. repeat myself as well. There are lots of issues for us to cover & if we get bogged down in discussing only one then there are others I won’t have time to address. I try to give a subject enough time & space to be discussed. But once it gets drawn out there’s a time to move on. That’s what I meant.
Well that’s fair enough – it’s understandable. You just don’t need to phrase it as a threat as you did beforehand.
It was said out of frustration. Plus I really don’t like using the same phrase over & over again in practically every comment. It gets old. Try something new & innovative for a change if you want to critique me.
39% of gay soldiers are harassed by their officers in Israel:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193496955&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Very clever Hasbara Buster. But the IDF still remains the most gay-friendly military in the world.
Sure. And it is also the most humane army in the world.
If all else fails try sarcasm, is that the idea?
The idea is to point out the absurdity of those kinds of standard Israel apologist platitudes.
Except in the case of gay rights in the Israeli military it isn’t absurd: it’s a fairly sober and accurate statement which you still haven’t managed to refute.
One of my Israeli friends who is gay has told me he did not have the easiest time in the military there, and he is someone who comes off pretty straight, and not someone who automatically sets off people’s “gaydar”. If he had a difficult time, imagine what it is like for someone who is more obviously gay.
A guy in my unit was gay. No one cared, or even was aware why he requested ‘extension’ on shower time (ie he showered after all of us). My other friend (you probably saw him on American Idol …) was as ‘gaydar’ beeping as possible and for some reason, he loved the army (he was in ‘army police’ – the ones who had out tickets and are hated by everyone) … I guess it depends on the individual.
If we’re on anecdotes, my best friend from the army was (and is) gay, and was treated very well by my commander (who was orthodox).
As for the ‘closeted’ theory – how does the Shin Bet get to them?!? One of the oddest aspect of those who see perfidity in everything Israel does is the superhuman qualities they attribute to an unfortunately all too fallibly human bunch.
Alex, I don’t know if you’re being disingenuous or what.
You can’t pretend that having an open gay-hater as a cabinet minister has zero or minimal importance because no anti-gay legislation has been enacted.
In Britain, when Rowan Laxton cursed the Jews in a gym he was prosecuted. If he hadn’t, Britain would have climbed a few positions in the ranking of antisemitic countries regardless of the absence of anti-Jewish laws or of the number of Jews in the House of Lords.
One of the oddest aspect of those who see perfidity in everything Israel does is the superhuman qualities they attribute to an unfortunately all too fallibly human bunch.
Surely the guys who managed to kidnap Vanunu in Rome and bring him back to Israel unnoticed are also able to spot the gays in town? Or is it now bigoted to acknowledge Israeli expertise in the field of intelligence? No antisemitic conspiracy, dude.
Hasbara Buster – I’m not being disingeneous. Nor am I suggesting it has zero or minimal importance. But the views of one cabinet minister in a political system in which extremist views can gain disproportionate representation are clearly of less significance than Israel’s relatively good record on gay rights legislation (the above qualifications withstanding), which you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
As for intelligence, as I keep saying, apart from one line from a Pal NGO, we seem to have very little to go on regarding this issue. It’s true that Israel has a good reputation when it comes to intelligence, but there have also been a lot of serious cock-ups over the years. Re. Vanunu – the man’s a fool; he flew to Rome on the basis of a snog. To get me on a plane I’d want a lot more. Still, it was wrong to put him in solitary confinement, and he’s now served his time (and then some), and should be allowed to live his life however he wants.
You cite legislation which is also being enacted in countries that aren’t exactly human-rights paragons, such as mine. The difference is that Israel allows anti-gay hate to be openly preached. That climate encourages incidents like the stabbing of gays at the Pride Parade in 2005, which would be unthinkable in my country.
Also, you fail to address Richard’s point that SWU shamelessly uses the gay community to peddle hasbara. Painting Israel as a gay paradise while not mentioning the gay-hate among the Ultra-Orthodox is like taking a visitor to see a city’s gleaming skyscrapers while carefully avoiding the shantytowns.
Hasbara Buster – Which is your country? Either way, I was talking in comparative terms with western countries, specifically the USA. Is there no anti-Gay hate openly preached in the USA? Have you seen Borat, or Bruno? Have gays never been stabbed in the USA?
Richard is right to say that the use of the gay community to peddle hasbara is pretty cynical. But I don’t think it justifies the vitriol of some of the responses here.
I would also remind you that homophobia in the Ultra-Orthodox community has nothing to do with Zionism. And why is that the principle of highlighting these negative aspects of a society don’t apply when the topic is homophobia in Palestinian or Arab society? Why is this explained away as the inevitable result of colonialism etc?
Alex, my point is precisely that overt displays of homophobia have everything to do with Zionism. Not because Zionism is itself anti-gay, but because it has legitimated one form of hate (anti-Arab racism), and it’s much easier to hate a group when hating another group is already the norm (the “snowball” effect).
As for homophobia in Arab societies, it’s much worse than in Israel, but the Arabs don’t set themselves up as examples of gay tolerance.
By the way, I’m from Argentina. Don’t cry for me.
Alex, unlike Israelis and Zionists, the Arabs have never claimed to be paragons of tolerance of homosexuality. Those who are not tolerant are very open about it, and those who are more tolerant are very open about the nature of their societies and the fact that there is a great deal of room for improvement in this as in many other areas.
If Israel has a climate which encourages violence against homosexuals, why is it that you are able to come up with only one incidence of violence which occured four years ago (one year before Ishai’s comment) and which was punished, as even you concede?
It sounds more like the exception than the rule.
What a difference a day makes. Did you see today’s Israeli headlines??
Why can’t we ever praise liberal values for what they are instead of using them as playing cards against the Arab and Muslim worlds?
That’s a good question.
Ishai isn’t a gay hater. Saying homosexuality is a disease is not hateful, it’s ignorant.
There is no comparison between what Ishai said and Laxton said.
Nevertheless, I don’t think Laxton should have been arrested, maybe kicked out of the gym.
Should he be fired? IMO that’s up to his employer. Is this how they think “diplomats” should behave? This is a question of professionalism as far as I’m concerned, and not bigotry.
I personally would settle for an apology and having him kicked out of the gym.
Whatever happened to him? the latest news I could find on him was he was on bail and suspended pending investigation. I couldn’t find if there was a trial or if his back working at the foreign office.
I just read on ynet in Hebrew that Israeli Social Security has decided to extend rights to gay “widdows” that can prove partnership undr the same criterea that hold for heterosexuals. Also, gay men who adopt a child will receive the same birth allowance that hetero couples receive. Meanwhile, in Washington (Richard’s home state) an antigay initiative has collected 137,689, 14% more than necessary to have the initiative placed on the November ballot. Which made me realize, there really is no anti-gay lobby in Israel. The closest we have is the anti gay pride parade in Jerusalem. But nobody really actively protesting the REAL achievements homosexuals are obtaining, usually through the courts.
But hey, what’s really important is that three years ago the leader of Shas, a minister in the government, called homosexuality a disease.
Alex Stein: “the IDF still remains the most gay-friendly military in the world”
Shirin: “Sure. And it is also the most humane army in the world.”
Shirin: “The idea is to point out the absurdity of those kinds of standard Israel apologist platitudes.”
Alex SteinExcept in the case of gay rights in the Israeli military…it’s a fairly sober and accurate statement which you still haven’t managed to refute.”
As Richard likes to say, not so fast, Alex Stein. You made the completely unsupported claim that Israel’s is the most gay-friendly army in the world. It is your job to present real evidence in support of that claim, not my job to refute it. And in fact, I pointed out the absurdity of some of the other utterly unsupportable claims about the Israeli army by way of refutation of your unsupported claim. The claims that the Israeli army is the most humane, or the most moral army in the world are refuted by the very well-documented facts about the actions of that army.
So, accept your burden to support your claim that the IDF still remains the most gay-friendly military in the world, and then it will become my burden to refute it. Until you do that your claim is not worth the electrons required to place it on this page.
Well the most was probably an exaggeration on my part, in the sense that very little comparative data seems to exist on this subject. But it is one of 29 countries which allows gays to serve in the military (the United States is not one of those countries). To put it another way: there doesn’t seem to be another country where gays have better rights. If so, please tell me about it. The burden of proof cuts both ways….
Not yet, you mean.
False. You’re extrapolating fr. a single right & claiming there is no other country where gays have better rights. That’s patently absurd. Gays in Israel have one right that gays in the U.S. don’t have. But gays throughout Europe overall face much more tolerant, accepting societies. If you were gay, which I take it you’re not, and if you lived in a few of those societies, you’d know that.
Unlike you, I have no brief to prove that Israel is the best at this or that. This allows me to be a bit more dispassionate than you appear able to be.
Richard – “Unlike you, I have no brief to prove that Israel is the best at this or that.” I have no brief like this either and you know it. Why do you have to write things like this about me?
It may be that you consider yrself a foil for my views & therefore come across as someone who always has to defend Israel or trumpet its virtues. But that is the way you sometimes come across (at least here). I know that you do have good values and do good work in the Israeli context. But I can only react based on what you write here, & that’s the way it often comes across.
I wish we had more in common here with our views about Israel. If you’re willing to be critical I don’t often see that here. Again, I understand you’re reacting to the context & you feel I am a harsh critic & that influences how you come across. But still…
Richard – on the whole I think sympathetic critique works more effectively than harsh censure. Here I sometimes think you are out to paint Israel in as bad a light as possible, rather than to constructively engage with its problems.
On topic, some breaking news: Two killed in a homophobic attack in Tel Aviv – http://www.gogay.co.il/content/article.asp?id=8475
Terribly, terribly sad.
Three dead in an attack against a gay center in Tel Aviv.
Israel is a society rife with anti-Arab racism. Now when it is the norm to hate one group, it becomes socially more acceptable to hate other groups as well, in this case the gays. This evening’s events show where that slippery slope leads, no matter how good the gay-rights legislation may be.
Well I’m not surprised so see you jump in with the ‘I told you so’. Does the ‘slippery slope’ theory explain violence against homosexuals in other societies?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. I didn’t say “I told you so.” In fact, Danny Zak, an Israeli gay said that in the passage quoted fr. Jerusalem Post. Perhaps you’d like to take yr objections up with him…
And speaking of anti gay violence in other countries, I’m having trouble recalling a massacre like this one anywhere else. I could be wrong as my recall isn’t perfect. But this may be the largest number of murdered gays in a single incident anywhere in the world.
Didn’t Andrew Cunan (sp?) go on a long spree killing homosexuals throughout the US before killing Versace and himself? Being South African, I remember this one unfortunately:
“Last year, Cape Town was stunned when nine male escorts, including the owner of the Sizzlers gay massage parlour, had their throats slit before being shot. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3505514.stm
Also, can we wait before a killer is apprehended? What happens if this was (as I said in your post now) a ex-lover of some guy/gal at the club and not some homophobic nutter?
Btw, his ‘I told you so’ comment was (I think) directed at the Hasbara Buster (Mr. Right as I affectionately call him)
Richard – the ‘I told you so’ comment was directed at Hasbara Buster.
Sorry I didn’t understand that.
This is interesting:
“I warned in a column last year that Israel is a place which, on the one hand has liberal laws, but on the other does not attempt to counter homophobia,” Danny Zak, a gay activist and journalist, told the Post during the demonstration. “A murder was waiting to happen,” Zak added.
“The Shas party has the blood of two innocent kids on their hands,” he said. “Shas has blamed gays for earthquakes and diseases. This is incitement, but no one is put on trial for it,” he said.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1248277945034&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
This is as close to what I’ve been saying as it could be.
This was a horrifying and sad attack which I fully condemn. Most of the victims were kids. I’m not a member of the religious community, but if it turns out the murderer is, the police and Israeli society should place them under greater scrutiny. I still think that the answer to free speech is more free speech and not prosecution. Most of the quotes by Shas members I’ve heard are homophobic but do not, IMO, qualify as incitement to murder. In fact the statement “The Shas party has the blood of two innocent kids on their hands” is closer to incitement. Especially since we don’t know who committed the crime yet.
This murder makes me fell sick. LGBT have many achievements in Israel in the last 10 years, maybe they came too fast for some people. Something like this could never happen in a place where gays and lesbians were closeted and didn’t have places to meet openly and publicly. And no Richard, I didn’t see the headlines, I was up all night watching the developments live hoping they would catch the murderer.
The fact that a gay leader cites the Shas statements is proof that, contrary to what has been suggested here, the gay community of Israel does feel threatened by such hateful discourse, whatever its actual connection with the crime.