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Activists arrive triumphantly at Gaza harbor
Defying all odds and Israeli threats of force to stop them, two boats of the Free Gaza Movement reached port in Gaza earlier today:
Two boats carrying dozens of international activists sailed into the Gaza Strip Saturday in defiance of an Israeli blockade, receiving a jubilant welcome from thousands of Palestinians.
The boats docked in Gaza City’s tiny port after a two-day journey marred by communications troubles and rough seas. As they arrived, children swarmed around and leaped into the water in joy, while thousands of cheering residents looked on from the shore.
It is the first time that anyone has broken the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza, in force since Gazans chose Hamas to represent them in 2006 elections.
The boats were greeted by scores of Gaza fishing vessels which sailed out to meet the peace activists who began their journey in Crete two weeks ago and reached Gaza after a 180 mile, 30 hour journey from Cyprus.
It was touch and go all the way as the Israeli defense ministry threatened to use force to prevent the boats from violating the Israeli siege. During the past day of their journey, someone–possibly Israeli electronic warfare specialists–jammed the boats’ electronic gear and prevented them from communicating with each other:
Gazan swimmer celebrates arrival of FGM flotilla
Earlier Saturday, the Free Gaza activist group accused Israel of sabotaging the mission, saying that Israel had jammed the boats’ electronic communication systems.
“I can’t think of any other reason or any other party with an interest,” said Angela Godfrey-Goldstein, the group’s spokeswoman in Israel. She accused Israel of jeopardizing the activists’ safety, and appealed for international assistance.
In a statement, the activists said their communications systems had been jammed and scrambled and said they were victims of electronic piracy.
The foreign ministry denied involvement:
Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel said Israel wanted “to avoid the media provocation” that the group was seeking. He dismissed the allegations that Israel damaged the communications system as “total lies.”
Haaretz reveals that there were a series of consultations between the defense and foreign ministries about how to handle the situation, with the IDF arguing for forcibly detaining the ships and participants for questioning in Israel. Free Gaza Movement spokespeople warned that they would consider such behavior a violation of international norms and kidnapping.
Apparently, cooler heads at the foreign ministry prevailed and the government decided to let the ships reach their destination. When you think of it, this is quite a remarkable feat for a nation seemingly always prepared to use maximum force in confronting perceived threats from Palestinians and their supporters. I can’t say whether this decision shows the imprint of a more pragmatic Tzipi Livni over a hot-headed Ehud Barak in the defense ministry. At any rate, it shows there was a certain level of maturity in this particular case. Though Israel couldn’t miss an opportunity to show its utter disdain despite its “forbearance:”
…Discussions were held last week on this matter…The IDF raised the idea of forcibly preventing the boats from reaching Gaza. The army officers suggested stopping the boats at sea and towing them to the Ashdod port for inspection, where the activists on board would be detained for interrogation.
However, after further consultation, it was decided on Friday to avoid a confrontation and to allow the boats to reach the Gaza Strip. In the wake of that decision, urgent directives were sent to Israel’s embassies around the world regarding the stance they should take concerning this event.
“These are professional provocateurs and we did not want to cooperate with that on the open seas,” a senior political source in Jerusalem said. “Instead of letting the entire international press obsess about this for a week, the boats received almost no coverage, simply because there was no confrontation.”
No press coverage? A GoogleNews search displays over 300 separate articles about the FGM journey. This is mere rhetorical puffery on Israel’s part.
Yvonne Ridley passenger on board S.S. Free Gaza (Andreas Lazarou/AP)
But unfortunately it was difficult if not impossible to see live footage of the arrival in Gaza port in western media. Which makes the following e mail, sent by a journalist in Britain to Miriam Adams, one of my blog readers, especially poignant in this interactive, inter-connected world we now live in:
Want to know the sheer power of the modern age?
I am in England. I do not have television.
Tom (Nelson) sent me an e-mail “We’re in” message from his Blackberry on board the boat to Gaza.
My closest Saudi Arabian friend called me on Skype as soon as he saw it.
He turned his web-camera towards the television set in his living room in Riyadh.
We watched – together – the boats sailing into Gaza, the people lined up on the shore and cheering. Hundreds of small fishing boats are there with them, cameras everywhere.
I could see Yvonne Ridley waving her arms around from the side of one of the boats, so close to the harbour.
One has to take a deep breath and marvel at the magnitude of this power. There is no stopping people now.
While one may doubt her certainty that change is imminent in Gaza, one cannot discount the power of new technology to bring home far-off events with ever more immediacy. God bless Skype and the ingenuity of those who take advantage of such technology to surmount barriers that divide us.!
The next interesting development will be how the 47 crew members will depart from Gaza since Israel controls the borders. Will it let them depart without hassling them? Again, previous history shows that given an opportunity, Israeli intelligence will try to poke a finger in FGM’s eye by either detaining them or otherwise making their lives miserable. Anything to take the wind out of their sails.
Interestingly, the Israeli foreign ministry raised the possibility of more such voyages in the future:
Mekel, the Israeli spokesman, said Israel’s decision did not mean that future deliveries would necessarily be permitted.
“This decision was about these boats. We will see what happens with any future boats,” he said.
I think one of the real weaknesses of the FGM voyage as a political tactic is that it was not really a homegrown Middle Eastern project. It was based in California and the crew consisted of one Israeli, Jeff Halper, who was instrumental in planning the trip. Thus it became easy for Israelis to dismiss it as a stunt by radical leftist pro-Palestinians. It would be much harder to dismiss a future sailing composed solely of Israelis and Palestinians. That’s the tack I would take if I were pursuing another such mission. Make it as hard as possible for Israelis to dismiss the message. Make it hit them where they live.
At any rate, Free Gaza Movement has made a small but significant and valiant gesture in the movement against the Gaza siege. To paraphrase Churchill: It’s not the end or even the beginning of the end, but maybe the end of the beginning.
Tags: free gaza movement, israel allows boats to reach palestine, professional provocateur, ships break gaza blockade, yvonne ridley
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@amir:
That’s NOT what I recall. I’d challenge you to prove that charge.
You’re weakly attempting to change the terms of the debate. The Russian’s killed 60 times as many as the Moscow theater kidnappers did. I don’t think someone who resists being kidnapped is foolish. But you’re evading the main issue, which is Russian brutality & ineptitude.
In the Moscow theater situation I believe almost all the hostages were killed. So much for “rescuing hundreds of people.” Oh & by the way, the next time you’re held hostage by anyone I’ll give you a choice if you’d prefer to be rescued by Russian forces or Israeli. If you’re so pleased w. the Russian record you shouldn’t have a problem w. choosing the Russians, right?
No, actually it’s the height of common sense. Fiddler & I have observed the Russian bear for decades & we, as opposed to you, know precisely what we’re dealing with. But as with yr myopia about Israeli actions & policies, you have similar vision problems regarding seeing Russian behavior for what it is.
I notice you’ve refused to address Zionist terror attacks used duing the movement to create the State of Israel. Did you have a problem w. those? If not, you have no right to complain about Chechens resisting Russian domination. THe Russian record in Chechnya is abominable. Chechens had a right to resist. I don’t approve of kidnapping. But I don’t approve of mass executions, rape & sheer terror on the scale the Russians have used either.
Do you admire people who attempt to rescuse hostages & in the course of doing so actually themselves set the building on fire thereby killing 230 innocent hostages? That’s what happened in Beslan.
As for being contemptible. I think some of us here when searching for people who are contemptible might be more likely to find them here in this comment thread.
@amir: Actually it were two men and a woman who were killed. I don’t condone these killings, let alone the taking of hostages in the first place, I’m just saying that any reasonable person must have known that under the circumstances the likelihood of them being shot was extremely high, and conversely the likelihood of succeeding in whatever they were attempting to do, close to zero. In a more cynical mood than I’m in I’d consider them candidates for a Darwin Award.
I’m not an expert on hostage situations. There are however many aspects that you don’t have to be an expert to consider:
Lack of ambulances: The number of people in the theater was known, yet even at the time of the raid there were far too few ambulances and doctors at the scene. Victims had to be packed in commandeered buses, some who initially had survived choked to death on their vomit, etc. That’s imaginable in a remote village like Beslan, but Moscow, for Pete’s sake?
The gas: The Russians knew what it was, yet gave no information to the doctors, which, in all likelihood, lead to further deaths. It has since been suggested the gas was a fentanyl derivate aerosole. These are synthetic, very powerful opiates. Most every doctor can tell you about the consequences of opiate overdose, and the common antidote, naloxone, must have been widely available in a city like Moscow. Yet it wasn’t administered because the docs were prevented from knowing the cause of the poisoning. (Naloxone without opiate poisoning is in itself toxic, so it can’t be given “just in case”.)
The use of such a chemical agent, whatever it was, was in any case a violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, of which Russia is a member.
The summary execution of most of the subdued, unconcious Chechens was murder in my book.
The disinformation campaign in the aftermath, including holding the injured victims incommunicado in the hospitals, even preventing family from seeing them, was wholly unjustifiable.
Aleksander Litvinenko, who was spectacularly murdered last year, and others, have alleged there had been FSB agents among the Chechens (who escaped the raid or were spirited away by their buddies), suggesting the (or some) Russian authorities had been in from the start on the plan, even that one agent provocateur had suggested the theater as a target in the first place. I’m in no position to judge these allegations, I’d just mention them.
Since Richard Silverstein calims to know so much about this I am surprised he can’t even quote the FreeGaza.org website honestly
It clearly says they have spent $500,000 dollars and that they have only raised $250,000.
What other facts is he distorting if he canlt even get that right?
The number of lies being published about this mission are mind-blowing
From the claim that the people aboard are all “human rights WORKERS” to an article on the Comment is Free Guardian website by Osama Qashoo Saturday August 23 2008 saying the vessels are carrying humanitarian and medical aid (200 children’s hearing aids and 5000 balloons!!!??) to many other claims of being the first to break a blockade, there is no end to the imagination of those trying to disguise their obvious disappointment that they were not challenged or stopped by the Israelis. What a waste of $500,000 dollars.
The hearing aids were a clear propaganda stunt about which Lauren Booth spoke in one of her radio interviews, claiming it was for children whose hearing has been damaged by explosions. No doubt many of them suffered when bombmaking factories, and explosives being carried in cars etc or being made in front rooms exploded prematurely
@Joy Wolfe:
Read this from the Jerusalem Post:
So much for my lies…unless that is, yr beloved right wing Jerusalem Post is lying as well.
When I last visited the FGM site about a week ago, the amount was $300,000. They clearly spent more since then. Or is it so hard for you to believe that in a project like this their expenses could rise from $300,000 to $550,000? I still don’t find this an inordinate sum considering the billiions Israel spends on building the Separation Wall and other such tools of occupation.
Children’s hearing aids are both humanitarian and medical aid. I’d venture to say if your child was deaf and medical care was denied you by an occupying power that you’d consider such aid both blessed and humanitarian. But far be it from me to ask you to place yrself in the shoes of someone you clearly loathe.
As for being the first to break the blockage–who else broke it before them? Or are you claiming that by reaching Gaza they didn’t breach it? That would be a good trick but I’m sure you can manage it somehow. Thankfully, the rest of the world knows what really happened even if you deny it.
Don’t make judgements about who I loathe because you are totally wrong and totally out of order.
Do you really think that 200 hearing aids were what the Gazans were expecting? In any event when the set out the claim was 2000 hearing aids What happened to the other 1800?
Actually Peace Now went to Gaza some months ago.
My point was that they did not have to do anything to “break the ‘alleged’ blockade” as to their clear sdisappointment their hope that they would be stopped by the Israelis were dashed so there was nothing to break.
fortunately there are many like me who saw this for waht it was a publicity stunt gone wrong because it did not draw the confrontation hoped for.
I’m surprised it is over a weeek since you have updated your misinformation of the Free Gaza website
“Do you really think that 200 hearing aids were what the Gazans were expecting?”
ANYONE who has paid attention to the collective punishments, incursions, starvation, closures, intimidations, sonic booms, concussion grenades, low flying fighters and apache helicopters that terrify children, ad nauseum,
the GAZANS were expecting NOTHING, except perhaps more DEATH and CASUALTIES…at the least. They were overjoyed to WELCOME humane people who came to say “you are not forgotten by the world”. And risked their lives to say so.
“their hope that they would be stopped by the Israelis were dashed so there was nothing to break.”
As with your other previous cynical and sarcastic comments, that the participants went knowing NOTHING except that they might die in the effort. tremendous courage to go despite the intimidation and bullying threats by the Israeli military and establishment. How many non violent or innocent have been abused, wounded or killed before you acknowledge the courage needed to go forward. They are heroic, humane and courageous IMO.
“a publicity stunt gone wrong because it did not draw the confrontation hoped for.”
More cynicism and negative grousing –cannot diminish the courage or humanity of these folks…Perhaps if you were capable of comprehending THAT, they perhaps there would be no rightwing calling for more slaughter or war, and would sit down like MENSCHEN and find solutions.
@Joy Wolfe:
Oh, you mean it’s Palestinians you love but Hamas you loathe? C’mon you have about as much sympathy for a Palestinian as a dog has for a flea. If I’m wrong I’d sure like to hear of anything you’ve written or done that says otherwise.
I never read any such claim, but if you have proof why don’t you supply it?
No, there was a caravan of Israelis (not Peace Now) who went to the border to deliver humanitarian aid. They didn’t cross, hence didn’t break the siege. Again, if you have evidence to the contrary pls. let us read it.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
I’ll tell you what: if you contact the Jerusalem Post & tell them to update their site then I’ll update mine. In the meantime, I’ve got to get word out about Jeff Halper being arrested & that’s a bit more important I’m afraid.
there was a caravan of Israelis (not Peace Now) who went to the border to deliver humanitarian aid. They didn’t cross, hence didn’t break the siege. Again, if you have evidence to the contrary pls. let us read it.
Correct!!…thanks Richard for reminding…
I can add that it was many of the SAME people who coordinated that delivery of humanitarian aid which I supported. To send desperately needed water treatment filters…so that the occupied people could drink something besides boiled sewage water…courtesy of..their occupiers.
No electricity to operate the treatment plant -so the sewage has been flowing back into streets and homes. ….stench amongst others gifts of occupation…on of those aerial bombing–if I remember correctly–was pivotal in causing the on-going sewage backflows …as well as direct dumping of untreated sewage directly into the ocean–due to non functioning treatment facility…thus prohibiting even a simple cooling dip in the ocean for relief from the intense desert heat and lack of bathing water..after all, swimming pools in occupiers’ settlements need filling.
Unfortunately Hamas were caught out manipulating a “fuel crisis” when Associated Press and Reuters both published pictures which showed there was daylight in an alleged meeting held by candlelight and an incubator which they alleged could not work because of Israeli cutting off fuel was actually working
there was ahitch in fuel supplies when Hamas bombed the power station and also the corossing points when the fuel was being delivered. Also an article which claimed there were “no swimming pools in Gaza” was also proved with pictures to be false
Richard, don’t bother with your usual challenge to my having proof of this. Just look it up online
@Joy Wolfe:
You remind me of the Pope who persecuted Galileo for saying the earth revolved around the sun. “The sun revolves around the earth,” he must’ve said. “Just go ask God, He’ll tell you.” You’ll have to forgive me for not believing a friggin’ word you say. I’m not looking anything up on yr behalf. If you want anyone here to believe you you’ll have to do the work & find proof for what you’re spewin’. Otherwise, you have zero credibility.
Besides everything you say amounts to individual anecdotes. Even those are likely untrue. But even if they were they wouldn’t dismiss the suffering of 1.5 million Gazans. And didn’t you say you don’t loathe Palestinians? Yet you deny their suffering. Suffering confirmed by multiple independent sources & Israeli journalists themselves. How cruel you are.
I’ll challenge you: if Gazans aren’t suffering would you be willing to spend a week there just to prove me wrong? I thought not. If I had the money I’d even pay yr airfare.
You have a most unfortunate habit of jumping to conclusions and attributing sentiments to people you don’t agree with that are not true. If you can show me anything that I have said that says I don’t think the Palestinians are suffering I will immediately retract it
I am very well aware of their suffering and am equally aware that conditions in Gaza are among the worst you will find in the Middle East.
You are entirely out of order to suggest I think otherwise, and your remark about being cruel is a joke.
This thread is about whether the unhindered arrival of two ships carrying 46 publicity seekers, and 5000 balloons does anything to alleviate the undoubted suffering of the Palestinians. It also begs the question of why the billions of international aid destined to help the Palestinian people has been misappropriated and not used to improve their lliving conditions and resettle them without forcing them to retain their refugee status as the Palestinian leadership has done since 1948. It is also about why there is a UN resolution passed at the time Israel was administering Gaza that prevented the Israelis from building improved housing, a resolution that still exists today. It also challenges why, when Israel left Gaza, greenhouses that had been bought for the Gazans by an American benefactor to provide ongoing work and remuneration were the first thing to be destroyed
I would be happy to send you evidence in photographs of what you claim to be anectdotal stories of the electricity situation and details of the daily convoys of supplies into Gaza from Israel. Unfortuantely I can’t provide any evidence of any help that comes into Gaza from Egypt or any of the Arab countries as there isn’t any.
JUST TO ENSURE YOU CAN’T MISQUOTE ME AGAIN
YES I DO BELIEVE THE PALESTINIANS ARE SUFFERING
YES I DO CARE ABOUT THAT
YES I DO THINK THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP AND HAMAS SHOULD BE DOING MORE TO ALLEVIATE THAT SUFFERING AND NOT BUILDING TUNNELS TO SMUGGLE ARMS INTO ISRAEL AND THE WEST BANK OR DIVERTING MONEY TO PRIVATE BANK ACCOUNTS
YES I DO BELIEVE HAMAS SHOULD STOP ATTACKING CROSSING POINTS TO INTERRUPT THE FLOW OF SUPPLIES FROM ISRAEL
YES I DO BELIEVE CROSSING POINTS SHOULD NOT BE USED BY SUICIDE BOMBERS
YES ID OD BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE FAR MORE GRASSROOTS COOPERATION BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS WHICH CAN SHOW THERE ARE REAL PROSPECTS FOR PEACE
NO I DO NOT THINK FABRICATED PUBLICITY STUNTS DO ANYTHING TO HELP PALESTINIAN SUFFERING
HOPE THAT COMES OVER LOUD AND CLEAR
AND IF YOU WANT EVIDENCE OF HOW UNWRA IS AN INFLUENCE THAT PERPETRATES THE REFUGEE SITUATION THAN RELEIVING IT I CAN PROVIDE PLENTY OF EVIDENCE OF THAT TOO, NOT LEAST THEM ALLOWING TERRORIST ACTIVITY IN THE CAMPS UNDER THEIR NOSES.
I await with interest your next distortion of you telling me what I think Hopefully others can make up their own minds, noit mine
[ed., URL removed per comment rules]
I used to have Alex’s problem when viewing the site with Netscape 7.02 – about 200 pixels’ worth of content was cut off on the left side of the screen. Here’s how I deal with the situation:
(1) Enlarge the monitor screen resolution (in my case, from 800 X 600 to 1024 X 768) and then
(2) enlarge the size of the browser window; finally,
(3) enlarge (”zoom”) the text size if it’s too small for your tastes.
Kudos go to an Apple discussion forum for pointing this solution out to me.
@Andy:
Ah, I see what could be the problem. Most Wordpress themes are designed for 800×600 res. But because my posts are usually on the long side I’ve widened the text box fr. the standard so that it’s designed for 1024×768. That may be why some folks using smaller screen res are having problems. I apologize for that & hope Andy’s fix works for you.
@Joy Wolfe:
Gee, I don’t know…maybe it’s because you’ve denigrated Palestinian suffering every chance you’ve gotten & written about it as if it were a hoax perpetrated on world opinion. Until this comment you haven’t expressed a scintilla of concern or even belief that there such suffering going on. So we can only judge you by what you write & not read yr mind. And you’ve written nothing that would show any belief in the legitimacy of Palestinian claims that they are suffering. In fact, I think you’re schizoid about it. You acknowledge it, but then you belittle it. But you can’t have it both ways. They’re either suffering or they’re not.
I’ll repeat: ANYTHING you write here by way of making claims will be totally discounted w/o providing proof of said claim. You made this claim before. I asked for proof. You provided none. You made the claim again & still provided none. I’m getting tired of this. So next time you make a claim & don’t provide evidence I’ll consider turning off yr right to continue commenting in this thread (though you may comment elsewhere here). Remember, EVIDENCE.
Ah, I see. You’re one of those who favors “resettling” Palestinians anywhere but where they already live–like Saudi Arabia or maybe Uganda (remember Herzl’s proposal?). Well, that one won’t fly. Israel’s gonna have to accept the fact that these refugees are Palestinian & going to stay Palestinians, which means they’ll be staying right where they are & Israel will just have to deal with it. Palestinians don’t live their lives at the convenience of Israelis like you who prefer they would just “go away.”
Again, because you provide no link or evidence I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Gaza is under siege & Israel lets nothing in or out (especially out) so even if the greenhouses WERE functioning, they couldn’t get their products to market. Therefore, no work & no remuneration. So if you want to blame the Palestinians for their own suffering as you clearly want to do, you’ll have to go back to square one & come up w. something more convincing.
Writing in capital letters is FLAMING. Do not FLAME in this blog. Mind your manners please.
As for the tunnels, they are used for smuggling, but not just weapons. They actually smuggle everything that the ordinary Gazan needs including food, medicine, etc. But you conveniently ignore that fact because it’s inconvenient to your hateful attitude toward the Palestinians.
Name me one such “grassroots cooperation” program that you support. You’ve just smeared FGM. So you ought to be able to come up w. a single credible program that you DO support. If not, your claim is meaningless.
Do not link to propaganda sites. If you do such links will be removed. You may link to credible media or other sites. If you want to see a list of the type of partisan sites I don’t allow read my comment rules. This site does not promote the work of propaganda outfits by linking to them.
This is what happened at Beslan on the first day before the Russian rescue attempt. From wikipedia (not always reliable and if you have reason to believe inacurate then I’m open to corrections)
You’re the one doing that. I brought the topic up to demonstarte what kind of person (Basayev) Ridley admires. The brutality of the Russians is only relevant if you (like Ridley) thinks that it justifies the crimes of Basayev. I assume you don’t. I never said anything which can be considered support for the Russians in this conflict other than supporting there decision to make a rescue attempt, I may add after they negotiated a release of some of the hostages. If you only support hostage rescues when they succeed (like at Entebe) then you are allowing yourself a privilage that actual decision makers never have.
Rescue operations, apparently, are rather difficult and dangerous. Remember the failed rescue attempt when Jimmy Carter was president. Remember Waco. I think a little humility is in order when criticizing these kind of missions.
@amir:
Now it’s getting silly. Either you’re fine with brutal crimes as a means to an end or you’re not. You claim Richard thinks that Russian crimes justify Chechen crimes, and in the same breath you justify Russian brutality as long as it serves an end that you support. That way all atrocities in the world end up justifying each other mutually.
Time to revisit Albert Camus, especially his “Letters to a German Friend” and “Why Spain”, an answer to Gabriel Marcel’s complaint that Camus’ anti-totalitarian play, L’état de siège, was set in Franco’s Spain instead of the USSR.
(Does anyone know if Why Spain is published online anywhere?)
As for conditioning support of hostage rescue missions on their success, I don’t do that. (Richard can speak for himself, but I don’t think he does either.) I appreciate the fact that such missions can fail, what’s important though is if they are conducted competently and in good faith. About Beslan I know too little, but in the cases of the Moscow theater and Waco you’ll excuse me if I have my doubts on both counts.
“justify Russian brutality as long as it serves an end that you support”
That’s right, rescuing hostages is an end I support.
Don’t you?
I don’t see the Russioan response as a crime even if it was conducted incompetently.
If a guy has six years to build a bridge, selld all the good materials he was given to buy shoddy material and pocket the profits, hires high school drop outs at minimun wage and then is surprised when the bridge collapses with all the people on it, then yes that is criminal.
But when a guy has 2 or 3 days to figure out how to rescue a thousand civilians in rooms full of explosive held by religious zealots on a martyrdom mission while knowing that many of the soldiers he sends on the mission will lose their lives, well, in these cases I tend to give a little slack.
@amir: I’m sorry. If the Russians had any humility they wouldn’t be in some of the brutal, murderous situations in which they find themselves. They are the ones who need to exercise more caution, planning, competence, & humility.
@amir: Why have you focussed solely on the behavior of the hostage takers to the exclusion of the “rescuers?” A total of 230 or so people were killed in that operation–far, far more by the “rescue” than by the kidnappers.
I don’t in any way justify or condone those deaths btw. I merely say that the Russians were both an initial cause of the operation through their brutal occupation of Chechnya & that their “cure” regarding the rescue was worse in the toll it took than the illness itself (the kidnapping).
@amir: What have the Russians ever done to deserve “slack?”
As for planning & executing rescue missions, that’s what governments, police and the military are supposed to do. That’s their job. If they can’t execute such a mission with a bare minimum of competence then they should be sacked. If they’re not, well then their brutality is condoned by the government which hires them. In that case, such a government deserves the opprobrium of the world.
Imagine that the US air force had shot down all the hijacked planes on 9-11. The lives of 3,000 innocent civilians in NYC would have been saved. Of course, nobody would know that those lives had been saved. It would look like some idiot ordered the killing of all the hostages while the kidnappers killed none of them. But today we are wiser. Had the Russians not carried out the rescue mission, isn’t it possible that the hostage takers would have killed ALL 1000 hostages and themselves. Isn’t that the scenario that the government must assume (especially since 9-11) when dealing with members of terrorists group adhering to an extremist version of Islam?
To Richard
Too right you can’t read my mind so I wish you would stop doing it.
Clearly you don’t like it when I spell things out very clearly.
As for organisations I support or belong to One Voice is at the forefront of bringing Israelis and Palestinians together, but of course that organisation would not commend itself to you as it is even handed and anything that has a good word to say about Israel must be an anathema to you
Same goes for Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and its founder Gershon Baskin. Perhaps you are familiar with Canon Andrew White and the Foundation for Reconciliation in the Middle East.
But then again that wouldn’t be anti Israel enough for you to associate with
Why not link to Libby and Len Traubman who send around a regular newsletter highlighting many of the good Israeli/Palestinian initiatives that are going on in Israel, the Palestinian Authority area and around the world. I can let you have their details if you are interested
Take a look at http://janip.net/ JANIP
JANIP supports a negotiated two-state solution between Israel and Palestine, based on an end to occupation and the right of both peoples to self-determination within recognized, secure borders. As scholars and teachers who are committed to Israel, we seek to inject a voice of realism and moderation into the on-campus debate, which too often has been reduced to a choice between uncompromisingly pro-Israel vs. pro-Palestinian positions.
Again this will be something you will fid hard to swqllow
And finally why not walk into any Israeli hospital and see the Jewish and Palestinian doctors working side by side to save lives, sending teams around the world to carry out humanitarian medical procedures, or go on the wards to see Muslim and Jewish mothers having babies next to each other, and being treated together.
You may also like to visit Neve Shalom
But Idoubt with all the time you spend denigrating israel you have much time for anything positive.
As I expected you cannot come up with a single quote where you can demonstrate I have no regard for Palestinian suffering
And your credibility sinks to below zero if you do not know that millions of dollars have been used inappropriately depriving the people of much aid.
The World Bank refused to sign off the EU accounts because they were not satisfied that aid to the Palestinians had been properly accounted for. Arafat had millions in his Swiss accounts and his widow was at his bedside only to receive her annual millions after his death.
In Arafat’s compound there were papers showing thousands of dollars were being paid to fictitious employees
If as you would like us to believe money was all used for legitimate purposes, why is there no evidence of the the benefits to the Palestinian people?
It is all too easy for you to dismiss anything that does not suit your agenda
There is plenty of photographic evidence of arms smuggling through the tunnels but not one thing showing food etc goes through it as you claim.
In your usual way you have deliberately misread my comment regarding resettling and I am sure you knew I meant resettling them in decent housing and infrastructure within their own areas where thay currently are living. Actually I can never understand why their living conditions weren’t improved when they were totally under the control and protection of Egypt and the Palestinian Authority. There was absolutely nothing preventing the building of decent homes then except the desire to sustain a “refugee problem”
Just to make it crystal clear for the record I am 100 per cent against resettlement anywhere outside the Palestinian Authority area so please do not twist my words yet again
Hope an article from the Guardian with direct quotes from the Palestinian Attorney General will serve to convince you about the corruption, but no doubt you’ll wriggle out of that
Link to full article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/06/israel No way you can write this off as a propaganda site!!!!
Palestinian Authority ‘may have lost billions’• Corruption inquiry sees 25 arrests and 10 warrants
• Graft concerns helped Hamas to victory at pollsChris McGreal in Jerusalem The Guardian, Monday February 6 2006 Article historyThe Palestinian attorney general said he had uncovered the theft or misuse of $700m (£400m) of public funds, and suspects much more has gone missing, in an inquiry into widespread official corruption. Ahmed al-Meghami said billions of dollars may have been misappropriated in total and that his office has ordered 25 arrests to date and issued 10 international warrants relating to fraud within the Palestinian Authority (PA).
The announcement comes less than a fortnight after Hamas’s sweeping victory in parliamentary elections that is mostly attributed to widespread unhappiness at graft among some Palestinian leaders.
Mr Meghami said that in December that the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, who is not tainted by corruption accusations, asked him to delay a public announcement about the investigation until after the election because he feared it would be seen as a ploy to win votes.”
I realise it will painful for you to have to accept irrefutable evidence that your denial has caught up with you.
I can assure you I can provided backing for everything I have said that you choose to dismiss because you don’t like the truth.
So go challenge that comment of the Palestinian Attorney General published by the most pro Palestinian paper in the UK and one of their most negative reporters regarding Israel
As soon as I can track it I will get you the UN resolution number you chose to say you had no idea what I was talking about.
Your constant dismissive attitude about anything that doesn’t suit your biased agenda merely shows up your ignorance of the facts and hopefully open-minded people will come to realise that. Not that I suspect many open minded people bother with your site which I had the misfortune to fall upon by accident.
I look forward to how you challenge some of the hard evidence I have provided, but I have no doubt you will.
Interesting this is the first time the “Your comment is awaiting moderation” has come up
No doubt moderation entails censorship of anything that gives hard evidence of firm proof to back up my arguments
Watch this space
Evidence of UN resolutions demanding Israel stops building decent housing in Gaza and returns the refugees to their camps and temporary shelters
UN resolution
A/RES/31/15(A-E)
23 November 1976
. Calls once more upon Israel:
(a) To take effective steps immediately for the return of the refugees concerned to the camps from which they were removed in the Gaza Strip and to provide adequate shelters for their accommodation;
(b) To desist from further removal of refugees and destruction of their shelters;
While the PLO has done its best to keep Palestinians in refugee camps, Israel has done its best to move Palestinians out of the camps and into new homes. Israel even started a heavily subsidized “build-your-own-home” program for Palestinian refugees. According to an early description of the program:
Nine new residential schemes have been built so far, housing some ten thousand families that have chosen to vacate the camps. Each family was given a plot of land with full infrastructure…
The new neighborhoods were built on state land within municipal areas near the camps, and each had an electricity network, water and a sanitation system … a road system, paved sidewalks and developed surroundings. Public buildings were constructed in each neighborhood such as modern schools, health clinics and shopping centers, and land was allocated for mosques.
… As soon as his house is built, the refugee becomes the full property owner, and in due course his property is registered in the Land Register. (Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District, 1967 – 1987; Israel, Ministry of Defense, 1987)
Sheik Radwan, Gaza: New houses for Palestinian refugees built by Israel. (1977, Moshe Milner) Sheik Radwan, Gaza: Road construction in neighborhood built for Palestinian refugees by Israel (1977, Moshe Milner)
The vacated homes in the refugee camps were taken down with the goal of eventually creating enough open space so that the camps themselves could be rebuilt as further new neighborhoods for the refugees.
It’s not surprising that the PLO vehemently opposed this program – after all, former residents of a refugee camp, now living in a nice home in a new neighborhood, would have a stake in supporting peace and opposing violence, exactly the opposite of the PLO’s strategy.
What is perhaps surprising is that the United Nations also opposed the program, and passed harsh resolutions demanding that Israel remove the Palestinians from their new homes and return them to the squalid camps. For example, UN General Assembly Resolution 31/15 of Nov. 23, 1976:
Calls once more upon Israel:
(a) To take effective steps immediately for the return of the refugees concerned to the camps from which they were removed in the Gaza Strip and to provide adequate shelters for their accommodation;
(b) To desist from further removal of refuges and destruction of their shelters.
Similarly, UNGA Resolution 34/52 of November 23, 1979 declared that:
measures to resettle Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip away from their homes and property from which they were displaced constitute a violation of their inalienable right to return;
1. Calls once more upon Israel to desist from removal and resettlement of Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip and from destruction of their shelters;
Perhaps thanks to this support from the UN, the PLO began threatening to kill any refugee who would move out of the camps.
@amir: You seem to enjoy creating hypothetical situations. The only problem is that you’re comparing apples with oranges. Al Qaeda doesn’t operate like the Chechen rebels (despite yr apparent claim that all “extremist Muslims” must be the same), who have a history of kidnapping operations which is, or should be known to the Russians. Unlike Al Qaeda, they don’t kill all their hostages. It’s the Russians who tend to do that–during their rescues.
So Russia knew to a large extent what type of kidnapping situation they’d be dealing w. since they’ve experienced a number of high profile kidnapping situations involving Chechen militants. The fact that the former dealt with all of them in the same brutal fashion only indicates how obtuse they are & how little they learn from their experiences.
@Joy Wolfe:
This is rich. You’re actually claiming Israel offered to build new homes for Gazans??? Surely, you must be joking. Palestinians & even Israeli Arabs literally can’t build any new construction in Israel or the Territories because Israel refuses to issue licenses. And you have the chutzpah to claim that Israel actually did, or wanted to build new homes for Gazans in Gaza??? Do pls. provide me a single shred of evidence of this.
Joy, Joy, Joy…what do you take us for? Fools. Why didn’t you tell us you were using CAMERA as yr source? You expect anyone here to believe a single word from that sack of Israel-First ideology? Really, Joy. I can see why you refused to provide a link to them because you’d prob. read my comment rules which specifically note which partisan groups can’t be quoted here as credible sources. Guess who’s among them? CAMERA. What a surprise. And you feel they’re convincing evidence to buttress yr argument.
A word of advice: don’t quote from CAMERA here again. There are actual credible resources even right wingers like yrself can use to provide evidence for yr perspective. If you’ve got to resort to CAMERA then you’re a) really desperate & b) don’t care about truth or accuracy.
@Joy Wolfe: Oh please. Don’t flatter yrself. You’ve written nearly 10 comments in this thread yet you intimate there’s censorship here. Don’t be ridiculous.
If you use an IP address never registered by my spam filter it moderates yr comment. So stop getting melodramatic & imagining yrself the victim of a conspiracy.
@Joy Wolfe:
What was it you just said about not presuming to know what you believe? Yet you stupidly presume I don’t support One Voice (which I do). As for saying a good word about Israel–I say good words when they’re warranted. Besides, you haven’t read enough of my posts to know whether I do say a good word or not (I do).
BTW, Jeremiah, Isaiah & Amos were castigated by their brethren for the same reason: they weren’t sufficiently pro-Israel; too much criticism. Their peers wanted to hear good news fr. them & all they heard instead was carping. Spinoza too said things his fellow Jews didn’t want to hear. So they flayed him in the same way you try to flay me. But I’d rather be on their side than yours any day. I know which side history will vindicate & it won’t be yours.
And listen my friend, you’ve caught yrself out in commending the Traubmans to our attention. They are friends of mine. Their views of the conflict are, if anything, more strenuous than mine. You can’t possibly have anything in common with any initiative of theirs. And if you do then you don’t know anything about their politics & they don’t anything about yours. I’ll be talking to them about you to find out if you’re all mouth or whether you’ve ever actually DONE anything to help them.
Well, not precisely. Palestinian doctors can’t work in Israel. But you may mean Israeli Arab doctors. If so, I would concede there may be handful in Israel. But given that 20%+ of Israelis are Arab would you care to hazard a guess as to what percentage of Israeli doctors are Arab? How much lower than 20% would it be?? Would it even be 1%? And if so, why would that be? Don’t paint a pretty picture of Israeli society that isn’t justified by facts. I don’t mind someone praising Israel, but do it w. facts on yr side.
Don’t talk to me about Israeli peace organizations. Believe me, I’ve been supporting them since the late 1960s. I’ve supported Neve Shalom since it was founded. Your views have nothing to do with what Neve Shalom stands for. If you forwarded yr comments in this thread to any member of Neve Shalom they’d blanche at reading yr views.
Basically, you’ve just listed a catalogue of the few peace groups you know. You haven’t proven that you’ve actually done a thing to support them. But I’d really like to know what specifically you have done to support a single one of these groups. If you have, more power to you. If you haven’t, shame on you for pretending that you have.
We’re talking about Gaza, remember? Hamas runs Gaza, not Fatah. I’m not going to defend Fatah as I think they’re, with a few exceptions, a bunch of corrupt thugs. You specifically claimed that HAMAS had misappropriated aid funds. Not that Arafat had. I asked you to prove that HAMAS had committed these acts. Not to prove that Arafat had. You are trying to smear Hamas, remember? So let’s stick to Hamas for the sake of argument.
Sloppy, Joy–very sloppy. This from the pro-Bush neocon Washington Times:
Care to retract that statement??
As you seem to have a major case of logorhea, I’m going to impose a limit on you. You can write one more comment in this thread & then you are done in this thread. If you do not honor this request your privilege to continue commenting in this thread will be revoked. You’ve enjoyed the privilege of publishing several thousand words in this comment thread. Move on to another thread or risk the revocation of yr privileges. Oh & by the way, do feel free to complain about censorship. But before you do, note that I specifically mention this provision meant for the few obsessive compulsives like you who seek to regurgitate endlessly here.
No I don’t care to retract as we are talking tunnels into israel and you refer to tunnels from Egypt
As expected you asked for evidence and then conveniently ignore acknowledging anything I provided evidence for
And yes I do regularly hear from Libby and Len by email, and use the information they provide in my talks and emails as I firmly beleive the way forward is through cooperation between people and not arguments between politicians
Actually after your last reply I was done anyway, and do not consider you cuttinbg me off censorship but a compliment as you clearly don;t like being challenged.
Privileges? Do you seriously suggest it is a privilege to be on a site like yours. More a penalty
@Joy Wolfe:
So that would make you a serious masochist.
I’ll send your regards to Len & Libby. I can’t imagine why they’d have anything to do with you.
I note in yr reply that you didn’t actually name anything you’d done on behalf on any of the peace organizations you listed as ones you respect. Which would make you a big talker.