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I was surfing the web and came across a site that featured the logo of the Jewish and Israeli Blog Awards. I’ve seen the logo before at some sites and never sat down and looked at it in any great detail. Being a progressive Jewish blogger who often blogs about Israel; and being ever-ambitious and hungry for recognition of my blog I thought I’d check it out for myself.
If you take a look at their logo here you’ll notice the two sponsors: the Jerusalem Post and Israelly Cool. A little ideological background is in order. The Post at one time in its history (I know because I read it sporadically when I lived in Israel for two academic years) was a sleepy little Anglo-Israeli paper that took an uneventfully centrist political stance on Israeli politics. That all changed when Conrad Black (does he still have that ‘Lord’ title or do they take it away once you’re accused of a felony??) bought the paper, turning it into the spitting image of his neocon, hardline pro-Likud views.
Now the kleptomaniac buccaneer is gone. Derek Fattal, the Post’s director of internet services assures me that post-Black the Post moderated its politics:
The Post’s position in the local spectrum is now straight center on most issues and I don’t think many informed pundits would currently cast us as right wing.
But that’s what George Will would say about Sam Alito’s judicial philosophy, now wouldn’t he? It all depends on where you locate your center. One could believe the paper has moderated its views. But I don’t believe it will ever fully divorce itself from Lord Black’s political philosophy.
So you have a conservative Israeli daily allied with Israelly Cool. The latter is a hardline anti-Arab blog written by Aussie Dave, an Australian oleh (immigrant) to Israel. I should correct this statement. Dave doesn’t hate all Muslims. He only hates Muslim terrorists. Which Muslims does he have a hankering for?
I hate the Islamic terrorists, and I make a point to distinguish between them and “moderate” Muslims, for whom I have the utmost respect.
Here’s his description of one such individual profiled, where else, in the Jerusalem Post:
…Yunis Owaidah [is] a PLO Arab who is proud of the fact that he “collaborates” with Israel.
The Jerusalem Post have [sic] a fascinating article on him, which I implore you all to read, if you have not already done so. Here is an appetizer:
Owaidah explained that he decided to work with Israel “because of the injustice we saw when we were under Jordanian rule before the 1967 war.”
“When the Jews came to Jerusalem, I saw how they were treating the people in a humane way,” he said. “By comparison, we had been oppressed by the Jordanians when they were here. Look how the Jews have built a modern and democratic state, and look where the Arabs still are.”
Dave, you see, loves the “good” Muslims, those few quislings who exist among millions of Palestinians. And oh how he hates the “bad” Muslims. Those are the really rotten ones who want a state of their own and who detest the Israeli Occupation.
And Dave isn’t afraid of obliterating a few innocent Palestinians if it means the IDF or Shin Bet can bag a Palestinian militant in a targeted assassination:
While I am always opposed to the deliberate killing of innocent people, and saddened by any loss of innocent life, this does not mean that I oppose all targeted killings where innocent people are inadvertently killed.
I guess Dave doesn’t have much use for this famous dictum:
“it is better to let ten guilty men go free than to convict an innocent man.”
I’ve written (see next link) about some of Aussie Dave more lovely characterizations of Palestinians and Muslims (Dave probably thinks ‘Palestinian’ and ‘Muslim’ are indistinguishable terms). Dave is also a member of Pajamas Media, that sterling collection composed of many pro-Likud bloggers founded by Roger Simon and Charles Johnson. I explored the pro-Likud bias of many of PJM’s bloggers here.
Which brings me to Johnson’s Little Green Footballs, a nominee in the Israel Advocacy category. How does a blog written by a non-Jew and non-Israeli get into a Jewish and Israeli Blogging Awards competition? I guess if you really stretch you could say that Charles always is looking to uphold the most extreme right wing viewpoints offered within Israeli politics. So perhaps that rates him an “honorary Israeli” designation. But seriously, one of the main reasons Charles gets nominated is that he in turn invited Aussie Dave to join him in Pajamas Media (see the latter’s profile). So it’s only natural that Dave would return the favor.
Fattal assured me the competition had no ideological bias:
There are nominees of all political types and persuasions. Neither the Post nor Israellycool have any discretion over the voting and awards process…
Notice that saying there are nominees “of all political types and persuasions” doesn’t mean that the competition isn’t dominated overwhelmingly by conservative blogs (which it is–more on that shortly). Jesus’ General has already examined some of the nominees and highlighted some of their more outrageously hateful anti-Arab bile. Most of the quotations cited here come from this terrific post. Several qoutes are from the post I mentioned which I wrote a few weeks ago about Pajamas Media.
I thought I’d take a stroll myself through the field looking for political orientations. If you review the Israeli Advocacy category, you’ll first note the title. “Israeli advocacy” is a code word among Israel’s supporters for pushing the ‘Israel right or wrong’ line in debate about the Israeli-Arab conflict.
Let’s test the hypothesis by examining the blogs nominated. I’ve written about Atlas Shrugged and its wild-eyed search for anti-Semites under every bed in my overview of the participants in the pro-Israel Pajamas Media blog. CAMERA Snapshots is the blog of Committee for Accuracy in Mideast Reporting in America. Those are the folks who are always accusing CNN, the New York Times and Washington Post of being anti-Israel because they cover both the Israeli and Palestinian side of the conflict. For CAMERA, writing a story about Palestinians is tantamount to anti-Israel propaganda. Or how ’bout Joe Settler? Pretty much a given where this guy stands in the political divide. Ditto for Israpundit. You won’t find a dispassionate discussion of the conflict in any of these blogs. Of eleven blogs in ‘Group A’ of this category, one, Dan ‘Mobius’ Sieradsky’s Jewschool, is progressive. Sound “fair and balanced” to you?
Group B contains the aforementioned Little Green Footballs and other gems like MyRightWord (guess which side of the political spectrum it’s on?), Zion Report, Only in Israel, and Soccer Dad. Here’s a pertinent quotation from the latter that Jesus’ General features in his blog post about this travesty of a competition:
Soccer Dad responds to the news that a the family of a brown [Palestinian] child killed by Israeli troops donated his organs to Israelis:
And in what circumstances did those minors die? Ahmed, was carrying a toy rifle in a place where the Israeli army was operating. Hardly a wise decision. And even if Israel apologizes, was it wrong for the Israeli soldiers to shoot first and ask questions later?
Zion Report views the granting of citizenship to Israeli Arabs as a “sign of weakness:”
You consistently hear Israelis brag about how allowing Arabs to hold Knesset seats displays our goodness. I disagree. I think it’s a display of weakness, and I know that our enemies see it as such.
To allow a sworn enemy, who actively supports the destruction of the nation who pays his salary, to maintain his position is suicidal at best.
By the way, did I also say that these chenyuk’s (a disparaging Israeli colloquial term) can’t write?
Only in Israel possesses the proud distinction of being the creator of Rachel Corrie pancake jokes. Corrie was the American ISM member who was murdered by an IDF tractor driver which she was attempting to block from razing a Palestinian home. Did I mention that some of these bloggers strike me as little more than 14 year-old teenagers who haven’t quite been housetrained? They enjoy taking dumps all over the house…even on the memory of the dead. And they wonder why Palestinians perversely celebrate at Israeli misfortune??
Another blog nominee (in “Best Politics & Current Affairs” category), Aaron’s CC takes credit for marketing a mouse pad featuring an image of the armored Catepillar (known as “Cats”) bulldozer used by the IDF to destroy Palestinian homes. He markets it under the title, “I Love Big Cats.”
Oh, yes it’s a fine group of bloggers featured in this competition. A well-rounded slice of Jewish and Israeli life. Derek can make the claim that it’s a democratic selection process. But only because the nominees and those who nominate them are a self-selected group of hard-right pro-Israel bloggers.
I replied to Derek that when the Jerusalem Post severs its relationship with Aussie Dave and really attempts to recruit a broad cross section of Jewish and Israeli blogs, then it will be worthwhile for other types of blogs and bloggers to participate. Until that time, this competition is rigged for the right.
A word of explanation, there are MANY categories in the JIBS. I haven’t had time to explore every one. I selected the categories dealing with Israeli politics and examined them. There may be more diversity in some of the other categories. But please forgive me for being skeptical given what I found in my own review of the categories I chose to explore.
Tags: aussie_dave, blogs, israelly_cool, jerusalem_post, jewish_and_israeli_blog_awards, pajamas_media, pro-israel
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And you know what the driver did and didn’t see how? Perhaps you were standing beside him in the cab? Your “account” of what happened that day is one spread by the rabid supporters of the settler movement. There are other accounts which you of course choose to ignore as inconvenient to your propagandistic view of the events.
By the way, what business does the IDF have using a tractor which “impairs” the driver’s visibility in such a situation as this driver faced? Unless, that is, the IDF cared not a whit for the blood spilt. I’d say the driver’s attitude was similar to the callous one you present here.
Sure, blame the victim for her own death. That’s a helpful approach.
Boy, if running over someone in cold blood and killing them isn’t sinning against them then you sure have an awfully deformed moral compass.
Callie: News flash–if you like CAMERA you’re no liberal. It’s easy enough to be liberal and vote for Democrats here in the U.S. But the true test of democratic values and liberalism is how you view Israel. You appear to hang out ideologically with the LGF types. In which case, you’re on the right-side of the Israel political spectrum. Nothing wrong with that. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re “liberal” when it comes to Israel. And btw, who would you vote for in the March Israeli elections? That’s a better test of whether or not you’re truly a “liberal” in the Israeli context.
You DO have to be kidding! Calling me off my rocker shows what? Respect? Again, you’re welcome to be rude if you wish, just don’t try to take it back with the empty gesture of “with all due respect” (when you’ve shown none).
Absolutely right, CAMERA wants “fair and balanced” Mideast coverage in precisely the same way that Fox News touts its “fair and balanced” slogan. “Fair and balanced” to hard-right Republicans is Fox’s philosophy. CAMERA’s is “fair and balanced” means a press that ignores Palestinians except when they collaborate with Israel and only saying the nicest of things about Israel and Israelis. Again, nothing wrong with that as long as you admit you are partisan. To pretend that you merely want neutrality is ridiculous as you comment is too.
And maybe I want to do the dentist for a nice root canal job! I’ve read quite enough of that shmata over the 40 years I’ve been interested in this subject. I don’t need your kind advice on how I can brush up my Shakespeare.
“Friend?” Whose friend? We ain’t friends so cut out the veiled sarcasm.
“Much?” By whose standards? Yours? And why should I or any reasonable person accept your standards as the gold standard? Is there anti-Semitic coverage of Israel? I guess there may be some. But what you really mean to say is that this coverage is ‘anti-Israel’ and you don’t understand the difference between the two terms. Or the terms mean one and the same thing to you.
I’ve read some far-left anti-Zionist media sites which I’d say are anti-Israel, even anti-Semitic. I don’t like them. But is the NY Times anti-Semitic because James Bennett writes incisive and thoughtful pieces about Palestinians harmed by the Israeli Occupation, when at the same time other NYT reporters are writing parallel stories portraying Israelis in a favorable light? You say “yes,” I say “no.” The reason you say “yes” is that you want NO favorable coverage of Palestinians; or better yet, no coverage of Palestinians at all. If the Palestinians disappeared from the world media that would constitute “fair and balanced,” now wouldn’t it?
How innovative your sarcasm is. You’re only the 8th commenter to say this in the four years I’ve been blogging. I am YOUR political enemy, not Israel’s. And you’re a fool for not understanding the difference.
Richard,
At no time have I offered you an apology. Nor did I even indicate one in any of my posts, even the ones where I tried to be helpful. In fact I did the opposite and reiterated my dissatisfaction with what you write. It did cross my mind to offer one, but I rejected that as being insincere and unworthy. Of course, if someone can show me that I am in error, you will not just get an apology but a thank you for the correction, However, I do not expect that to happen.
I might have been too blunt when posting in other places regarding you, but I’m not sure I’m wrong in what I wrote either. Rather, perhaps I’ve made some comments too soon or perhaps it is not for me to say one way or another. But I don’t think that’s relevent to what I post here. If I see I’m wrong I’ll apologize, not because you do or do not want me to, but because that is the proper way to act.
Etiquette is not a joke or a convenience. Not if you want to be taken seriously. If you only wish to preach to the converted, that is your prerogative, but even they will take what you say with a tablespoon of salt if you evidence a lack of civility necessary for an exchange of ideas. Which is why I repeated Dave’s criticism of you in another post.
As for your lack of concern for what readers of LGF, etc etc. think of you, well, this is not summer camp, and we are not in “Color Wars” where “blue team” must be victorious over “red team” at the final singing competition.
This is real life, where innocent people are getting murdered, people like yourself call it “misfortune” (my conveniently deleted post illustrated that criticism far better despite your silly over-reaction to it), and families are being destroyed.
The other day I got into an argument with someone on the right. This person refused to even consider the possibility that Arabs have been stolen from, or that it was worthy of consideration, and became very agitated and overly emotional, etc. Much like how you reacted when I harshly (and justly) criticized your writing. The result? I kept quiet for the sake of the friendship, but I no longer take anything he has to say on the subject seriously. The pity of it is that he has no idea that this is my reaction. But this is the reaction everyone has when they are treated poorly or unfairly in an exchange of ideas. If you shut people down, you lose the ability to influence those same people in any meaningful way. Unless of course, they are sheep to begin with, in which case it hardly matters anyway. Note the word “influence” as opposed to “convince”. My experience has been that you will influence far more people than you will ever convince. Somehow that seems more fitting to me and correct to me.
But wasn’t that friend I mentioned silly though? How in the world did it help him or his cause to give me a monologue? Did he think that I would walk away from the conversation with a changed view because he rudely shut me down? There is a time and a place for rudeness of course, just like everything else, but that was neither the time or the place.
You may regard this post as being insulting or disrespectful to you. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t. But if you would prefer not to hear what people honestly think of you based on what you write, I can oblige you easily enough.
-ron
Ron: You indicate you may’ve been “too blunt” in what you’ve said about me in other places. In fact, I’d guess that what you wrote in the comment I deep-sixed was probably comparable to what you published elsewhere. Or perhaps it was toned down since you knew I would read it directly. I think you might want to consider the fact that if you thought you were “too blunt” I might find what you wrote (in that first comment) downright offensive. Pls. keep in mind there’s plenty in these comment threads on the JIBA posts that I found insulting and personally offensive. I only axed comments that went BEYOND these in their level of insult. Yours was one.
You seem to have at least two manners of presenting yourself online (or I should say here in these threads). The first version is the one I’ve already noted. And the second is the version you’ve exhibited in your last comment. I’m delighted to be disagreed with by someone who does so civilly without calling me ugly names in the process. And your comment was quite thoughtful & decent. I hope you can see that I am civil with those who, even while disagreeing with me, accord me a minimal level of humanity.
I have also had a civil discussion with a few other commenters here who don’t see things my way. But by and large the commenters here didn’t bother to read what I wrote or if they did they read through the twisted prism of their own ideological viewpoint which refuses to let in light from other sources. The kind of ignorance & intolerance many of those comments represented were responded to by me in roughly the manner their writers offered them.
I’m not going to get into a semantic debate with you over the terms I use to describe Israeli or Palestinian suffering. I see the suffering on both sides and deplore it for both sides. You clearly believe I’m one-sided. I assure you I’m not and there are blog posts here which might persuade you of what I’m saying. But I freely admit that I post about Israel and Israelis more than I post about Palestine and Palestinians. That’s because I’m a Jew, because I spent two years living in Israel, because I’m a fluent Hebrew speaker and student of Hebrew Literature (MA & ABD in the field), and because I’ve studied the I-P conflict for 40 yrs. It’s also because I believe that Israeli attitudes and policies toward the Palestinians are absolutely crucial in resolving the conflict. Not that such Palestinian attitudes are NOT important. It’s just that I have so much less influence over the Palestinian side of things (though I do maintain contact with several Arab bloggers). Aussie Dave’s criticisms of me show a quite superficial knowledge of me, my background, and what my blog really stands for.
But I really don’t care that much. I don’t expect that the thousands of visitors LGF & Israelly Cool sent my way the past few days are going to experience a mass conversion to an alternate view of the Jewish/Israeli universe. In fact, judging by the comments, most of them didn’t even bother to really read what I wrote. But I’m still glad they came. If even one of those thousands has an idea about this conflict which they rejected before they came here, then that’s good enough for me.
Sorry but who made you the deus ex machina of criteria to what a LIBERAL is. Maybe everything you believe brands you as a ‘critical progressive’ and no liberal, or using other self created definintions maybe everyone who thinks democracy in places besides the USA and ISrael then becomes, NEO CONS.Maybe you believe that social justice requires equal outcome and that makes a (domestic) liberal. Who knows?
It’s a stupid label set. If I as someone who worked in civil right in the 60’s, organized anti vietnam protests has a right to that ‘label’ it’s me (and as a democrat who BEFORE 9/11 had NH campaign workers staying in our home for months during primary season).
Guess what, I see few people I would call liberal. This is all funny.Liberal= HHH, liberal = HST Liberal =FDR. Dick Durbin is NO Liberal. Cynthia Mckinney is NO liberal. Juian Bond is NO liberal.
As for Israel so sorry, but to be ANYTHING you first have to be there. As you ought to know MR Silrverstein, the HAMAS charter makes it clear that unless there is going to be a Palestinian Altalena of some kind, there is NOTHING to discuss(Irsael is a muslim waqf..those are not idle words for some negotiating position), and it’s a war of survival,.Nevermind if they actuaslly form a govt. Moreover as you ought to know as well, in the last three years polls have shown that 58% or MORE of the palestinians peolpe believe in HUDNA not peace, just a waystation on the path to NO Israel. These are unpleasant facts. They are not pliable as either liberal, neo or paleocon or progressive. They are. Nothing ameliorates an occupation, and nothing also amerliorates the fact that arabs make laws that jews follow in Israel. The reverse is true nowhere. That’s not a justification, just a fact. If no peace but islamic peace is possible then separation begins to look pretty liberal compared to permanant occupation (which Dayan and Eban called poison pill).
If you think that is going to be accomplished with anything other than rough means (which is neither liberal nor conservative), time to reread Conrad Black (FDR), Davisd Mccullogh (Truman) and Michael Beschloss (The Conquerors), when you’re done, reread Qutb and Azzam.
As far as LGF sorry I missed your links , nor are they obvous to me in a re-read. I can’t see them as anything more than a sarcastic MEMERI with comments. Perhaps you would be kind enough to post them in a comment. I troll by and don’t read everything every day at LGF so it’s possible Johnson posts racist comments, but I’d like to judge for myself. Nothing against your judgement, but for all I know you think Norman Finklestein and Howard Zinn are the creme de la creme (and no they are not liberal).
Your post is 100% correct. Thanks G-d.
Deus ex machina is a feature of Shakespearean plays and not apt in this situation.
And you seem to forget, it’s my blog. I provide my views. You take ‘em or leave ‘em. Several commenters here have claimed to be “liberal.” This is cleary a debating tactic they attempt to use in order to say “I’m a liberal, I know what a liberal is, and you sir, are no liberal.” But those who make this claim are no Lloyd Bentsens either. They’re just propaganda flacks for Israel’s right wing. It is possible that they truly believe they are liberal in a similar sense to those racists who swear up and down there isn’t a racist bone in their bodies. And I have no doubt they’re sincere in this belief.
Just as an example, I wrote a post here criticizing a liberal site, Democrats.com, which supports the Democratic party, because the moderator had called into question my loyalty to the United States because I said that the U.S. should get involved in helping the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. That jerk has the chutzpah to claim that he isn’t an anti-Semite and HE BELIEVES IT.
So just because commenters here who claim CAMERA is God’s gift to Mideast journalism claim they are liberal doesn’t make it so. It speaks volumes to their self-delusion or deliberate deception.
I think you just shot your whole theory that you’re a liberal. You mention in your comment that you volunteered in the New Hampshire Democractic primary. I bet it was for Joe Lieberman. If so, I’ve no wonder that a Joe Lieberman supporter would find Dick Durbin “no liberal.” But I got news for you–Joe Lieberman couldn’t get elected dogcatcher in the national party. So if you’re a “liberal” like Joe is one, it’s no wonder that you’re disaffected from such Democrats. But what you really should be saying is that “I’m a conservative Democrat” or even “I’m a moderate Democrat.” No shame in that. The Democratic Leadership Council is a worthy group even if I don’t agree with much of what it stands for. But don’t go tryin’ to make us believe that you’re “liberal.”
That is one sorry-ass argument. It’s as old as the hills and lost any cogency about the time Truman left the White House.
‘Fraud’ is more like it. My blog has 5-6 posts which quote large sections of polling surveys of Palestinian and Israeli public opinion about these and related issues. They are jointly conducted by the Hebrew University and a Palestinian academic polling organization. I don’t have the energy or time to go and ferret out the statistics. If you really care to know what the polls really found, you may do a search on ‘Israeli poll’ or ‘Palestinian poll’ in my blog search box and read what Palestinians REALLY believe instead of what someone who deeply mistrusts them (or worse) believes. A sizable majority of Palestinians are in favor of a resolution of the conflict that would recognize Israel’s existence. A strong majority reject Hamas’ views on this question. THAT, is fact. What you wrote above is what you THINK fact is.
Again, more questionable ‘facts.’ I’d challenge you to find a single law that an Arab Knesset legislator “made” which Jews follow. What you can legitimately say is that Israel allows “its” Arabs to vote for Knesset and that there are a few Arab representatives who sit there. They are an (unfortunately) shunned minority affiliated with none of the larger Jewish parties. There used to be a few affiliated with Labor but I don’t believe that’s the case anymore.
Mr SIlverstein I thank you for your response.
You have self identified (Lieberman comment) as a critical progressive, who is prima facie evidence of the why the democratic party today at the national level is a REPUBLICAN VOTING MACHINE. MOVEON, George Soros, the idiot from Progressive Insurance, and Dr. Dean couldn’t be more helpful to the Republican party then if they just SENT IN THEIR RAISED CONTRIBUTIONS. Yes I supported Lieberman. I also housed Bradley workers, and Simon workers. But this ain’t then. The very fact that you are correct about Lieberman in the democratic party reveals the horrific truth about the party today. It is dying. Not for the members who become more and more base playing, but for growth. Don’t bother quoting a poll, we have one every 4 years for the only person elected nationally. That is the inarguable objective reality. Unless the election is ALL about domestic policy there IS no chance.
Your response about I don’t have time for this or that belies the truth that you FEAR a ‘battle of sources’ (not for public exposure, but because it is liable to challenge you articles of faith ..I speak with gulf arabs very frequently and as this has affected me, such challenges should enhance not threaten your opinions). The poll I quoted is a palestinian poll. IT’s about 2-3 years old and was the last such poll taken, the 58% is a real number. Your reaction is unfortunately shirkingly TYPICAL of those on the left (NOT LIBERALS) who when faced with reasoned opposition of ideas and alternate ‘facts’ which challenge the opinions they have formed, refuse such debate. Instead they resort to critcisms of style. Your commenton the ‘aptness’ of ‘deus ex machina’ is also de rigeur for such opposition, is signifies nothing regarding facts. I notice you adroitly AVOID HAMAS since there is no solution and no peace possible so long as they exist.
Fine.
BTW the your links just above, AS I STATED EARLIER, regarding LGF refer to commenters NOT posts. The challenge still stands. Find a racist post BY Mr. Johnson. The page you refer to are 100% outside commenters. Are they reprehensible? Have you reasd Kos’s commenters? Is he responsible for gavones posting there? If such a post by Mr. Johnson can be found I have an open mind, and don’t want to be reading racists. But neither am I impressed by smears based on what commenters freely say.
W/rgd to Israel – do arab members OPPOSE all laws voted into existence in the Knesset? Does Russ Feingold not make laws by free participation? He also does not have to worry that his open contribution to lawmaking will not one day come back to find him in the person of a salafi knocking on his door with a sweet little takfir message. How many jewish members in the Iranian parliament speak their mind freely opposing the Pasdaran? Oh wait.. there is no free parliament since the ulema-guardian council determines who is fit to be a candidate.
By the way despising Dershowitz as you seem to may find you one day holding hands with Finklestein and his best bud, mentor and academic supporter Noam…who of course supports the folks (Faurisson et al) who think Ann Frank never existed to write her little book, let alone the 6 million. Careful there. Finkelstein’s raison d’etre is to prove the Holocaust is an exagerrated money raising industry for jews.
Hey Ep,
So when Charles uses a comment at ummah.com he is wrong to use it as a representative view of Islam as a whole? Perhaps you should talk to the ponytailed one yourself, he seems happy enough to castigate Kos and others because of their commentators…..how come his are a protected species?
As for accusing Richard of one day holding hands with Holocaust deniers….well that’s just a step away from the usual cries of anti-Semitism where there is none–a view favoured by LGF, Israpundit and morons like Atlas Shrugs.
DR- Actually, like Drudge, I use LGF for the articles it points out more than anything else. I hardly EVER read the comments (who has time – they are out of control in volume). I PARTICIPATE in Gulf arab forums and need no explanation about any ‘ummah.com’, but the folks I have discourse with are engineers, bankers, and IT people so what is pointed out about ‘ummah.com’ is irrelevant to me, and so is what Kos commenters say, or Democratic Underground, or Freerepuiblic, etc. If LGF rags on commenters elsewhere it’s a big yawn (My comenters are better than yours?). But when they rag on what is said at Al Azhar as being representative of Islam, and it matches what the salafis I talk to say, I know what is real, so sorry. That is different. But his isn;t abotu that, it’s about what LGF POSTS, not what commetners say, or what KOS commenters say.
I make the following points
1) Arabs vote in Israel, and while a minority, DO make laws, and participate every day -to whatever degree THEY wish
2) No peace is currently possible thru any kind of negotiations since HAMAS finds Israel is by quranic definition, IMPOSSIBLE. It is a muslim waqf, and the quran is immutable and the perfect word of god. This doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t try to find a partner, or does things like ‘transfer’ etc. It merely recongnizes the impossibility of peace with palestinians – (who are about to reward HAMAS in the voting booth) – TODAY. Tomorrow is not today.Right now there is no point in giving anything up thru NEGOTIATIONS (not the same as what they did in Gaza which was IMHO- right)
3) Only 2 states can be a solution
4) Since 1936, the arabs who happen to be in the Trans-Jordan, have at every chance to have a peace, rejected it because of what HAMAS stands for. It is RELIGIOUS, not politcal. This makes any long term solution tenuous if possible at all. I OBSERVE this fact.
I didn’t accuse Richard of holding hands with deniers.. I simply WARN him about Finklestein. If he holds the views he claims to espouse he will find Finklestein as execrable as I do. This is apart from anything else. However that Finkelstein and Noam consipired with each other to accuse Mr. Dershowitz of plagiarism etc, and that Noam actively supports Finklestein, and that Noam is not only a supporter of racist morons (for what HE claims are free speech reasons….puuuleeeze) but also believes like MANY critical progressives (Zinn, Ward Churchill, Eric Foner, Hobsbawn, etc) that the USA was monstrous at its inception and thus cannot help but be monstrous thru the ages cannot be argued.They are all what Felix Dzherzinsky would call ‘useful idiots’.
I wish Richard would explain why he ‘despises’ Dershowitz. That is why FInkelstein was mentioned, it mimics exactly the word Finkelstein (a darling of the arabs) uses
This is my opinion on it
Finklestein had every right to accuse Dershowitz of plagiarism and sloppy writing. Having read ‘The Case for Israel’. Norman Finkelstein makes many valid points. I disagree with him on many aspects of his work, for example some of his writings of the Holocaust ‘industry’, but I don’t forgive Dershowitz of his errors simply because he opposes Finkelstein. Wether Finkelstein and Chomskey conspired is debatable, but the fact thaat Dershowitz not only seemed to plagiarize, research badly and get important figures wrong is undisputable. Even he admits to using the sources, making the errors and in part badly researching certain facts. He also mis-represents B’Tselem on many occasions, a charge that he stil denies, but it’s in his book in black and white.
LGF’s problem is that Charles posts, post after post of copy and pasted news articles with the intent of stirring his commentators up. No matter the authenticity or the relevance, as long as a negative spin can be put on the Islamic faith as a whole he does it. While I agree that comments section can be written off as meaningless, if Charles want’s to distance himself from the extremists on his site……then pointing out extremists in other peoples comments section is a tad hypocritical. In answer to your points.
1) And what’s wrong with that? Are you suggesting that Israeli Arabs are stripped of their right to vote/participate/legislate in the Israeli democratic process?
2) Peace is never impossible. If it was we may as well all commit suicide now. Peace is possible, dialogue needs to be sought. Clear instruction and aid from the US, UN and the rest of the world including concessions by both Israelis and Palestinians is needed.
3) Agree totally. The Palestinian Administration needs to be afforded the same rights to exist and develop as a new nation as Israel has. Israel needs to be afforded the right to exist and to be terrorist free from the fledgling Palestinian States also, it’s a difficult situation but it’s something that must be solved. The ‘old LGF comments section’ answer of transfering them or less politely killin the ‘ragheads’ is and never was the answer.
4) Did Hamas exist in 1936? The Arabs have had the chance for peace, and so have the Israelis. Many opportunities have been squandered by both sides. Looking forward is the answer not looking at the failures of the past and apportioning blame. Peace is possible. That is my opinion. Your opinion is the opposite. Don’t call it a FACT because neither of us can claim that.
I don’t care how many Arab forums you participate in or how well you believe you understand Islam, you only understand it through you own distorted lens. That is not a clear lens, but a clouded one.
First, Hamas does not control the Palestinian agenda, the PA does. Or that is it will until it immolates itself by the fire of its own incompetence & the Israeli governments utter unwillingness to aid a legitimate partner.
Yet another dreary distortion by contending that what the Palestinians believe about the current political situation is dictated by the Koran. I can’t remember whether I challenged you or another commenter to read my posts about Palestinian public opinion. A minority (though growing) support Hamas. And they do NOT support Hamas because of its interpretation of Koranic doctrine. They support it because it appears honest. It appears able to perform social services. It appears to be against corruption & lawlessness. It appears able to do everything that Fatah is not able to do. If Hamas wins the upcoming election it will not because of Islam but because of political utility. The party that gets things done will win. Not the party with the right doctrine.
There IS a partner, just not one you like. And btw, if the PA & Hamas are not partners, who is? Perhaps we should bring back the Village Leagues, Israel’s first attempt to create a wedge against Fatah in the 1980s? It’s 2nd attempt was a little too successful–Hamas. Yes, Israel helped create Hamas. You don’t hear the Shin Bet bragging about that ‘beautiful’ idea.
This is utter cynicism of the darkest kind. It only means that thousands more Israelis & Palestinians will die because of self-defeating prophecies like this one.
I see. You want Palestinians to have a state of their own, but don’t believe in negotiations toward that goal. Sounds sensible to me.
DR has pointed out to you already that what you see are facts are merely opinions, yours. And they’re opinions not borne out by history. First, do you understand the difference between nationalism and religion? There was hardly an Islamic element to the Palestinian cause until that Israeli creation called Hamas came along. The Palestinians before then were nationalists & their opposition to Israel was based on nationalism.
And your understanding of religious tradition is completely impoverished. You incorrectly view Islam as an immutable religion. It is not. No religion is. Some are more stubborn and hopelessly immobile (viz. Catholic Church) than others. But none are immutable. Not only that, but Islam itself is not the monolith you make it out to be. You are merely using the religion as a strawman to justify your lack of belief and trust in the peace process.
Why do you and so many others who came to comment on the JIBA posts seem to have so much advice for me on what I should read or think? I don’t need you to warn me about anything or anyone. Frankly, IF Finklestein IS execrable, then Dershowitz is far worse. Besides being a liar, he is a two faced turncoat from his own expressed beliefs. Did you know that several decades ago he used to defend the civil rights of Israeli Arabs in courts? Then he was a man I could believe in. Now he just bloviates on cable news. While his views on U.S. domestic politics are generally congenial to mine, on Israeli politics he’s an AIPAC apologist for hardline Israeli policies. Oh, and did I mention he was an egomaniac with delusions of grandeur (his own)?
What is it about Noam Chomsky that so gets under some Jews’ skin? It’s like he’s the old turncoat Jew who converted to Christianity and denounced his former co-religionists. It reminds me of how the Amsterdam Jewish community treated Baruch Spinoza. He had ideas that deviated from normative Judaism, therefore they excommunicated him. Made him persona non grata. Now, guess whose ideas are known the world over? Whose name do you remember, Spinoza’s or the rabbi who signed the herem decree?
I’m not saying Chomsky is a Spinoza. But the community’s treatment is not very dissimilar. Got news for you. Jews don’t have to believe the same thing. We can even each believe things diametrically opposite from our Jewish neigbors. Unlike you, I welcome Noam Chomsky into my Jewish community. I don’t agree with him on the Mideast. But he belongs among us as much as Aussie Dave and his readers.
Well, gosh golly, I’m guilty. Because I said I despise Dershowitz that MUST mean I have precisely the same beliefs as Finkelstein about Dershowitz and the Mideast. Now doesn’t it?
Interesting that inevitably the defense of critical progressives turns to niener-niener
Sorry fellah, but after that experience I ’sat down’ with a mullah and 2 imams. If my lens is distorted it’s theirs as well. “It’s the salafis, stupid” They were very frank, no threatening and all three tried to convince of the rightness and goodness of the Message. I understand.
THEY have the quran on their side, and the only muslims on ours will be those whose conscience forbids the actions the quran prescribes.
That is why when a muslim demonstration against terrorism was organized to great fanfare, less than 50 people showed up, or is this new information?
That is why the Al-Sheikh family in KSA (the DIRECT descendent of Ibn Wahab who CONTROL religious theory) continues to promote malignancy aligned with the muslim brotherhood (whose branch in Palestine is known as HAMAS)
I cite fact and you say my lens is distorted.
WHAT HAVE YOU READ, DONE, UNDERSTOOD? Have you read Qutb, Azzam?
Have you read all of 5:32 or do you think the Quran actually says ‘killing 1 man is like killing the universe’?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html
Take your pick and find quranic dissimulation for yourself. That’s not out of contest, what we are TOLD is out of context. The whole quran, senna and hadiths are there, read it (if you can)
Maybe YOU have sat down with Bat Yeor to discuss how it IS
When faced by inconvenient facts your response is simply…your ideas are distorted?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/11/international/middleeast/11palestinians_iht.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1136983060-hlIiVo1xCyTnamSHiZnM4A
The PA can’t get the dog catcher out to catch dogs, get it?
The PA are the guys with no Israel on the map as well
The PA are the guys teaching 9 year old kids it’s good to be a martyr on KIDS TV SHOWS
They are NOT like the United Mine Worker’s Union holding out for a better deal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060114/pl_nm/mideast_un_usa_dc
But you are correct that HAMAS is regarded as honest. They are, and among other things they honestly are required by their religion to make all jews and Christians .. dhimmis, gone, or dead.
Just ask the Mayor of Bethlehem, who is going to have to pay the Jizya since HAMAS now runs the city. Anyone reading this who doesn’t know what jizya is, shame on you.
The PA is almost certainly done. HAMAS will take 35-40%, and may be the formative agent in the next govt. Either way unless there is an Arab Altalena, Israeli parallels would have had Irgun and the Stern gang in control in 1948 which is why Ben Gurion ordered Rabin to attack the ship (and Begin).
There can be no compromise with HAMAS. There is nothing to discuss. That’s not me saying it, it’s them. It’s Abdullah Azzam saying it. It’s their charter saying it.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
Don’t take my word, read it yourself.
…………………………….
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
The only hope for peace is that the palestinian people finally reject terrorism (as being counterproductive to their own needs), and accept that Israel is going to be there beyond the idea of HUDNA (which you also ignore)
This will never happen as long as HAMAS exists (unless they become a vestigial KKK which will require public and private excoriation, and real action)
NO ONE, and that is the problem PRECISELY.
Sometimes the best thing you can do, the least expensive in lives(all lives) and treasure is to WAIT. Therefore, btw, the WALL.
……………………………
Frankly I really don’t care about Chomsky’s religion, and never thought about it. I HAVE thought about his ideas about reality, and I reject his totally socialist, dictatorial, venomous views utterly.
His incredible dissimulation when caught LIVE by Mr Dershowitz lying about his book dedication for Faurisson was one of the most disgusting episodes I have ever seen.
He’s a very talented linguist, and a hypocrite par excellence, which is why this believer in social justice and socialism charges for downloads from his site (which are freely available elsewhere), and still tells the NYT this is best country on earth
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/magazine/02QUESTIONS.html?ex=1136350800&en=e9d30c6bd1cdf355&ei=5070
http://www.jbooks.com/interviews/index/IP_Dershowitz.htm#_edn20
Chomsky, who finds us montrous from inception, won’t leave because he ACTUALLY believes Lincoln (that we are the last best hope), but criminals all?
His STUPID treatise on preventative/preemptive war IS the reason for my username. The greatest refutation of that idiocy imaginable.
You seem to debate on feelings not facts.
btw, as to your left handed admission of lack of racism on the part of Mr Johnson’s quotes (why is he stirring up his readers) …WHY IS MEMRI?
They do they same thing don’t they? They quote ‘moderate’ muslims with the same kind of frequency, don’t they? Or are they as distasteful as well?
FINIS
The British BNP posts articles simmilar to Mr Johnson on their website, they are Nazis. A court in the UK has found that calling them faschist is acceptable. Are they not racists?
They are of course and so is Mr Johnson. Remember Amnesty International calling Guantanamo the Gulag of our time? What was Mr Johnson’s first reaction. He questioned the motivation and the religion of the spokesperson on the basis of her name. He assumed that because she had a Islamic sounding name that she was driven by some sort of Jihadi mission (despite AI’s harsh criticism of Islamic states and the person in questions record of standing up for women’s rights in both the Islamic world and in other nations). Mr Johnson is a bigot. Feeding a large pool of bigots.
DR you made an assertion, fine.
Where’s your URL?
Go to LGF, search for Irene Khan.
I don’t particularly want to go swimming in that swamp today.
PS Any answer to the difference between the BNP’s website and Charles Johnson’s?
Never seen BNP don;t care to… but if I ran around comparing ‘critical progressive’ sites to what was said from Sept 1 1939 to June 22 1941I might conclude they are all identical to communist stooges who justified Stalin’s wonderful pact.
Have YOU ever looked at the archives at LGF prior to 9/11?
Busy today., but I will look for Irene Khan…all over
My point btw . is that they are not equivalent..
but if I ran around comparing ‘critical progressive’ sites to what was said from Sept 1 1939 to June 22 1941I might conclude they are all identical to communist stooges who justified Stalin’s wonderful pact.
Actually yes I have looked at the LGF archive.s, that’s part of the tragedy. That reasonable balanced human being interested in coding and cycling could become a bedwetting, Muslim hating Republican shill so quickly is frightening.
Actually, I do think I can write. Try reviewing some of this: http://yisraelmedad.wordpress.com . Sorry couldn’t respond earlier but, gee, I didn’t know you existed.
I grew-up a proud Jew.
Watching what has unfolded in Gaza has broken my heart. It is clear to me that Israeli soldiers are deliberately targeting civilians. They are on a rampage.
I can’t take it. I have burned my yarmulke and thrown out our menorah.
I told my wife that we will raise our children as secular humanists. She, crying, agreed.
The IDF can now take its place in history with the perpetrators of pogroms, the inquisition, and agents of terror and horror though-out history.
I hope that the trees planted in Israel in my name on the event of my bar mitzvah wither.
Heart broken in NYC.