66 thoughts on “Turkish Intelligence Identifies 174 IDF Soldiers Accused of Mavi Marmara Massacre – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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        1. I believe that southern command is also responsible for Ashdod, where the raiding forces’ home navy base is. So Galant has quite some blood on this hand in this matter too.

  1. the list is extremely amateur- it has names of Infantry and Armor officers, some of them retired, and names of regular soldiers who participated in cast-lead (you can compare to the very well-known list of soldiers that was published after cast lead, including brass and common soldiers alike)

    so this list is dubious at best

      1. This is not an appropriate comment. Read the comment rules. Comment if you have something substantive to say. This isn’t Facebook or a debating society where people vote on what they like or dislike. Understand?

    1. Nothing wrong with outing soldiers who went beserk and executed numerous people (remember the shots in the back of the head?), WHEN THE PROPER AUTHORITIES FAIL TO PROSECUTE THEM.

      Simon Wiesenthal did not ‘hunt goyim’ and neither does Richard Silverstein ‘hunt Jews’. Straighten out your morality.

    2. Oh months ago I would have replied to you, but nowadays I realize this hasbara you all proffer actually goes long ways in helping me discredit you all and shed light on the truth.

      Keep it up 🙂 The ad hominem does wonders for the world’s billions of growing skeptics. Oh what a tangled web we weave 😉

  2. How about publishing the names of Turkish soldiers, officers and officials involved in the occupation and forceful transfer of 200,000 Greek Cypriots?

    Israel can claim that the palmer report confirmed the basic legality of its actions on the marmara I am wondering what kind of justification turkey can provide for its actions in Cyprus.

    I am sure that president arduan, World famous for his zealous commitment to human rights and illegal occupation of all sorts, will be more then happy to supply us with a fully detailed list of all people involved in Cyprus. Perhaps now that the special Turkish intelligence unit has finished the Israeli case it can examine some interesting cases closer home.

    1. Make a blog and feature an article about it. As far as I can tell, this isn’t bran.com and the subject matter here isn’t Turkish relations with Cyprus.

      Pointing to another wrong doesn’t diminish yours. Hasbara has failed for over a decade. What is that definition for insanity again?

      1. Persian-

        Obviously turkey considers occupation and transfer to be legitimate political tools. Then why does it complain when Israel does the same?

        1. Did Turkey kill 9 Israelis purporting to give Cypriots food and medical supplies in international waters and completely humiliate Israeli national pride in the aftermath?

          Maybe I’m missing out on something here, but apples don’t equal oranges. Just because I have oranges, doesn’t mean you have apples either.

          1. Turkey killed many more then 9 Greek Cypriotes trying to assist there brethren up north. In fact it killed several hundred of them and ethnically cleansed several hundred thousand more.

            So if turkey considers that to be acceptable behavior why does she complain when Israel does much less? What comes around goes around.

          2. Bran, Turkey’s official entrance into this arena is a result of Israel executing its citizens without just cause, in violation of international laws, and above-all, an insane blow by Israel to Turkey’s national ego. It is not the result of Turkish citizens, along with MANY other nations, putting together boats, one certified by Turkey, to feed and supply the people of Gaza, impoverished due to Israeli atrocities against them (ongoing).

            Thus, until Israel’s flotilla to Cyprus is stopped by the Turkish navy, Israel has no legitimate standing to complain about Cyprus, nor do its proponents.

            You are conflating details to advance your argument, which is hollow.

          3. The issue here is Turkish hypocrisy. It is quit mind boggling to find turkey complaining about things she herself hade no qualms doing to others.

    2. How about not publishing off topic comments. Read the comment rules & don’t break them. Comments must be on topic, not on whatever you want to talk about. If I wanted to debate Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus I’d write a post about it. I haven’t. And learn how to spell “Erdogan” in English.

  3. “Israel can claim that the palmer report confirmed the basic legality of its actions on the marmara I am wondering what kind of justification turkey can provide for its actions in Cyprus.”

    Israel can claim anything it wants, but :

    “In particular, the Panel’s means of obtaining information were through diplomatic
    channels. The Panel enjoyed no coercive powers to compel witnesses to provide
    evidence. It could not conduct criminal investigations. The Panel was required to obtain
    its information from the two nations primarily involved in its inquiry, Turkey and Israel,
    and other affected States. The position is thoroughly understandable in the context of the
    Panel’s inquiry but the limitation is important. It means that the Panel cannot make
    definitive findings either of fact or law. But it can give its view.”

  4. This is good work on Turkey’s part. Even if IDF soldiers henceforward disguise themselves in full HIJAB (black balaclavas, likely), their officers seem to be known and it is the officers (after all!) who should be found guilty of and punished for any war crimes which may have been committed (sorry for weasel-wording lawyer talk).

    Knowing that the world is watching what you do might slow anyone down — hope it works with the IDF.

    Does Turkey have universal jurisdiction? If so, do they need the defendants to be physically present inside Turkey to prosecute them for war-crimes?

    1. Richard didn’t purport that any portion of this list was created by him. Rather, he said parsing and verification were needed.

      You made a false accusation and an apology is due.

    2. Why do you presume that a military engineer might not have participated in such a naval assault?

      I’d like you or someone to prove the lists are the same. I haven’t seen any proof of this though there appears to be at least some overlap. I’ll be waiting…

    3. You accuse me of lying & you better support the claim. If you don’t provide explicit proof that I have lied within the next 4 hrs you will be banned per the comment rules.

      I noted in my post that I couldn’t vouch personally for every single name & that some names may’ve derived fr. an earlier Cast Lead list. I made clear I was offering the names fr. the original list so others could verify or debunk. So seems to me you’re not gonna be able to prove I lied. And time is ticking before you’re banned. UNless of course you wish to apologize publicly for yr claim, in which case you are welcome to remain.

  5. It seems the joke is on those who trusted the Turkish newspaper and publicized the names – as it seems most of them are from a list compiled in Cast Iron in 2006 (if not, I’d want to know how did the mortar guide and the tractor driver help take over the Marmara. Maybe it should act as warning to future terrorists: look, if Israeli tractor drivers can take over the Marmara, just think what Commandos can do…)

    1. No one except you is saying “most” of the names are on the Cast Lead list. I’ve noted in my own post that some of the names are on both lists & that possibly some of the names are on the new list in error. It’s up to you & others to prove specially that most or all of the names are fraudulent. Till you do, you’ve only proven that some of the names may be there in error.

      1. Are you serious ? you post that list for what purpose ?
        There are women and heavy equipment operators, are you saying they were involved with the Marmara incident ?

        You must be smoking some good shi. in Seattle

        1. Deal with it babe. And refute the Walla article if you will & the parents of Shayetet 13 members who quoted as being scared shitless by finding their kids’ names on the list. The parents are getting personal lawyers for their kids. If this is a hoax it’s even got the Shayetet 13 personnel & family members fooled.

          1. I refuted the Walla article in a comment further down (or rather your translation and misunderstanding of exactly what it says there).

            It doesn’t say the parents found their kids names on the list.

  6. Lo and behold! Turns out that the perpetrators of the mavi marmara massacre are exactly the same people involved in operation cast lead. Who would have believed?

    Kudos to the great Turkish intelligence for there amazing breakthrough.

    1. It wouldn’t be that out of line, considering Israel purported to send its most elite soldiers (a 1000 man navy) out to international waters with assault choppers and full combat gear only to complain of ambush by Turkish activists without guns or real weapons/armor/training.

      If the best of the best was sent out to kill innocents in one event, they were likely sent out to kill innocents in the other. As it stands, the time period between the two events is not so great that there would be a fundamental change in the chain of command. Many of the same individuals would be involved.

      Your argument, like many other hasbara arguments, are based on short-run formulas that fail to look at the totality of circumstances, or often avoid inconvenient facts. The problem with that is you offer arguments that are seemingly strong, given a cursory glance, but that fall apart ridiculously when examined under the light for even a second.

      Inefficient hasbara, aka explanations based on something other than truth, achieve directly the diametric opposite diplomatic effect. Is it any surprise that these individuals are given talking points by the one entity in the world that thinks diplomacy means bribery and coercion?

      1. Are you serious, Persian? Do you really think that infantry, artillery and armor forces where involved in stopping the maramara? Don’t you realize how ridiculous you sound?

        1. Last I checked, NAVY did not include infantry, artillery and armored forces. This is supposed to be an intellectual and educated discussion. I regretfully inform you that you fail to meet the prerequisites and I must duly exit this conversation.


          1. Walla quotes a “senior IDF officer” acknowledging that the intelligence required to compile the list required deep knowledge of personnel, roles & operational involvement in MM attack. Some hoax!

          2. Again my comment below shows that the senior officer in the Walla article was not refering to the MM attack – there is a misunderstanding of the Hebrew there, see below

          3. Your comment shows nothing of the sort. And I didn’t misunderstand the Hebrew. You just interpret it differently than I do. And you have in no way proven that I misinterpreted anything in his statement.

          4. Richard
            I Suggest you will go and read the Hebrew version again, gee you can even contact Amir Buhbut, who’s email is listed – and ask him questions for clarifications.

            You are reading thing which are not present in Buhbut article.

          5. Not only you don’t understand what you read, you didn’t bother to compare the two lists your published: Cast lead alleged war criminals and this Turkey BS list.
            all the names from the Turkish list can be found on the alleged Cast Lead list, including the unit they belong to.
            Not a single member of the Navy is on the list.

            jesus, bloggers have some chutzpa, publishing stuff without checking it first.
            do you own a TP factory ?

            as for your hebrew skills, please don’t make me laugh.

          6. You’re lying. Every Israeli news source has commented that Ami Ayalon is on the list & he was a Shayetet 13 commander & navy chief. So right off the bat you’re full of crap.

            I want you to compile yr own list and tell me each member of the Turkish list and cross compare it & give the individual’s number on the Cast Lead list (the individual’s are numbered). Then we’ll see whether you’re a blowhard or not. If you don’t do this, then we’ll know you’re a liar.

          7. Richard my dear old friend, you are the one who’s lying, and you are doing so in bad faith and extremely bad taste.
            Ami Ayalon, isn’t part of the list You posted on this thread, claiming he was is simply a lie, and show how incompetent you are.

            Shana Tova.

          8. Every Israeli media outlet reporting on this story notes that Ami Ayalon’s name is on the list. This is from Turkey’s leading daily, Zaman, an article you didn’t bother reading even though it’s clearly linked in the post above:

            Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, Naval Forces Commander Vice Adm. Eliezer Marom and Israel’s military intelligence chief Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin top the prosecutor’s diagram. They are followed by two commanders of Shayetet (the navy’s elite commando unit Flotilla 13), Ami Ayalon and Zeev Almog, as well as two unidentified officers who commanded the raid on the Mavi Marmara.

            So much also for your claim that no navy officers were included in the list. Now does that make yr claim a lie or mere willful ignorance?

            You’ll recall the list contains 174 names. You’ll note that the list offered by Sabah which I quote does NOT contain 174 names. Ergo, my list doesn’t contain all the names. You seem not to be able to read Hebrew or English in not knowing Ayalon’s name is on the list.

            So what you’re saying is that you claim that the entire list of 174 names is a recapitulation of the Cast Lead list yet you yrself concede that you haven’t seen the entire list of 174 names. I don’t know if it makes you a liar or a scumbag or both. But one thing it does make you–is banned. You accuse me of being a liar & fail to prove it–you’re gone.

  7. The Turkish intelligence apparently did NOT identify the soldiers. It was the IHH:

    “İstanbul Deputy Public Prosecutor Ateş Hasan Sözen told Today’s Zaman that the İstanbul Prosecutor’s Office did not order any state institution to identify the soldiers. “No state institution had such a request, nor does it have any information on this. The prosecutor conducting the investigation has given no such order,” Sözen said. He noted that İHH lawyer Uğur Yıldırım submitted the list in question to the prosecutor’s office at 10:15 a.m. on Monday, on the same day when a Turkish daily published the list. Sözen added that the prosecutor will now examine the list.

    The statement comes in response to a report by the Sabah daily on Monday which said MİT, responding to a request from the İstanbul Chief Prosecutor’s Office, had obtained information on the identities of the Israeli soldiers who killed eight Turkish citizens and one Turkish-American in last year’s flotilla raid, identifying almost all of the soldiers who took part in the deadly raid through Facebook.”


    1. You’re misreading the article. It didn’t say Turkish intelligence wasn’t involved. It only said the prosecutor didn’t ASK intelligence to compile the list. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t involved in it. Though it’s possible it wasn’t.

      1. If you want to get specific about what was or was not said in each article,
        Even the unnamed IDF officer quoted and the worried parent can’t confirm that the names of any active Shayetet soldiers are mentioned.
        The list publishers admit that in certain cases (i.e., those who actually landed on the boats) they have pictures with no names.
        On the other hand they are willing to prosecute Golani infantry support personnel, mortar crew trainers and bulldozer drivers as responsible for their involvement in a navy operation.
        How do you say psychological warfare in Turkish?

        1. Even the unnamed IDF officer quoted and the worried parent can’t confirm that the names of any active Shayetet soldiers are mentioned.

          I have no idea what this means. Of course they’ve confirmed that such names are on the list. They just haven’t confirmed which ones are those of Shayetet members.

          There are only 10 participants who they haven’t identified. As for prosecuting, no one said anything about this. This is a list, not an indictment. Do you know the difference?

          1. “As for prosecuting, no one said anything about this.”

            YOU DID…

            “the list has been transferred to the Turkish prosecutor pursuing the case and will eventually be given to Israel as well.”

          2. Don’t be dense. Prosecutors receive thousands of lists, leads, whatever. That doesn’t mean they prosecute based simply on one’s named being there. There’s a matter of a thing called evidence which u need to prosecute someone, even in Turkey, believe it or not.

  8. Youk-

    You don’t have to believe me but strelski was also involved in abducting dirar abu sisi and training the eilat terrorists. Amazing what the Turkish intelligence is capable of.

    Why to go, arduan!

  9. Richard – you have read into the Walla Hebrew report things that are simply not there (I hope because of slight misunderstanding of the Hebrew). You write/translate:

    “A senior IDF officer said “the list represents a deep understanding of the both the names of the officers [involved], their roles and their operational involvement [in the assault], and we believe that only the involvement of Israeli sources could have provided the Turks with such information.”

    BUT NO! What you write in square brackets simply is not there in the Hebrew, and is not even implied. The source was careful to say exactly what he said and no more, but you added more! The source is talking about officers and their general activities and in no way connects them to the Mavi M, but only agrees to their being on the list.

    Then you say:

    The story notes that parents of members of Shayetet 13 have with great anxiety found their sons’ names and photos on the list”

    AGAIN NO! The Hebrew says: הורים ללוחמים בשייטת 13, קיבלו בדאגה רבה את הדיווחים על איתור שמות ותמונות של לוחמים שהשתתפו במשט.
    Traslation (with my emphasis):
    “Parents of Flotilla 13 fighters anxiously recieved the REPORTS of the locating of names and pictures of fighters who took part in the flotilla”
    They do NOT admit to their children being on the list (pointedly so!), but only expressed their anxiety, and also their concern that the IDF has not been in contact with them to instruct them what to do (indicating maybe that their son’s names do not appear on the list as this contradicts the statement that the IDF has warned all those on the list not to travel to Turkey)

    So the jury is still out as to whether this list is a re-hash of cast lead, a “shopping list” of un-connected soldiers, or a result of a serious investigation.

    1. Don’t you patronize my knowledge of Hebrew. I know perfectly well what I did & why in that translation. Besides, I don’t do this job alone. It’s easy isn’t it to smear the knowledge of someone who isn’t a native speaker of Hebrew. But you neglect the fact that I work with native speakers in doing this.

      The fact of the matter is that the term “operational involvement” has very specific meaning. It means what specific military operations they are or were involved in. That refers to specific and discrete operations like the Mavi Marmara assault of Cast Lead or the like. This article dealt with one specific operation, the Mavi Marmara. The interview dealt with a list preprared of those who were allegedly operationally involved in MM. That’s why it’s perfectly reasonable to presume those words referred specifically to this attack.

      LIkewise, your claim concerning the translation of the passage about the parents is faulty. The article quotes one specific parent who admits their son was involved and discusses their fears. While it doesn’t say the soldier’s name specifically is on the list, it seems likely that if it wasn’t the parent wouldn’t be nearly as concerned as he/she says they are and might specifically say that the name wasn’t there.

      At any rate, we’ll know soon enough how accurate the list is & I’m reasonably sure there will be names of Shayetet 13 members on it.

      1. All you need to do to see how dense you come across is to compare the names you published, with the names of the Cast Lead alleged war criminals (it’s available here http://s242816488.onlinehome.us/criminals2/)

        It’s the same list – Yadlin.
        You think people from the Givati brigade were involved with the MM raid ?

        Hebrew is not your first language – and it shows. On top of that you surely have no idea how the IDF operates.

        i suggest – again – you’ll contact Buhbut using his published email address and ask him what he meant. Just FYI, no shayetet members are on the list.

        And the IDF issues an IDF wide directive prohibiting officers (reserves included) from travelling to Turkey.
        You are absolutely wrong.

      2. I in no way intended to patronise your knowledge of Hebrew – I couldn’t countenence the idea that you would deliberately twist the Hebrew text so intended to assume that it must be because of a misunderstanding of the Hebrew nuance.

        In any case time will judge whether in fact the “list of 174” is serious or a Turkish propoganda stunt.

        I would respectfully suggest that even though Israel makes some howlers on occasion, no presently serving flotilla 13 commando (or shabak or mossad operative for that matter) will be so stupid as to open a facebook page where they discuss secrets of their participation in security related operations. I’m sure their are strict rules on this matter. (Unlike the nobody Eden Avargil who was a nobody soldier who put pictures on facebook).

        Shanah Tovah, and in spite of our often strong difference of opinion, I hope we’ll be able to continue the exchange of ideas and opinions through the comming new year.

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