Gaza Flotilla Ships Depart Tuesday, U.S. Threatens American Flotilla Passengers With Prosecution
The Turkish daily, Hurriyet reports that ten Gaza flotilla ships will embark from European ports in Greece and Italy on Tuesday. Previous reports said they might sail Saturday. The story notes that at least one ship will leave from Athens port, which would likely be the Audacity of Hope, whose passengers are now in Athens training for their journey and the possibility of IDF attack.
Hurriyet quotes yet another outrageous statement by Hillary Clinton to top the one which essentially warned the U.S. passengers that Israel might likely kill them and their government would take no responsibility if it did. Here’s her latest outrage:
“We do not believe the flotilla is a necessary or useful effort to try to assist the people of Gaza,” Clinton was quoted as saying by Agence France-Presse. “We think it’s not helpful for there to be flotillas that try to provoke actions by entering Israeli waters and creating a situation in which the Israelis have the right to defend themselves.”
Did you get that? Gaza is Israel’s territorial waters. Since when? She’s got lawyers working for her who are experts in maritime and international law. Does she even bother to vet such nonsense with them before saying it? Or is it the lawyers who’ve come up with this? Not to mention that Israel intercepts them on the high seas, making it an act of piracy since Israel isn’t protecting its own territorial waters when it hijacks a boat in the international zone.
Can anyone tell me why Israel should have a ‘right to defend itself’ against unarmed civilians fulfilling their rights to protest against Israel’s illegal siege against Gaza? How is that “defense?” What threat do these peace activists pose to Israel or Israelis? By what right would any force be used against them?
UPDATE: And in case you thought it wasn’t possible, I’ve just read an even dumber, lamer State Department pronouncement which threatens Flotilla passengers who are U.S. citizens with prosecution for providing support to a terrorist entity. Here’s Haaretz’s headline as reported by its Washington stenographer, er correspondent, Natasha Mozgovaya:
U.S. State Department says Gaza is run by U.S. designated foreign terrorist organization Hamas and Americans providing support to it are subject to fines and jail.
And here’s the actual quote by the State Department flack:
“We underscore that delivering or attempting or conspiring to deliver material support or other resources to or for the benefit of a designated foreign terrorist organization, such as Hamas, could violate U.S. civil and criminal statutes and could lead to fines and incarceration,” Nuland said.
This doesn’t inhibit participation or intimidate those in the Flotilla. Just the opposite. If I were a passenger I’d quote my former president: “Bring it on.” When your government plays stupid, it infuriates you so much you are moved to act to oppose its lunacy. There will be many more Americans who will want to go next time. And of course there will be a next time, and a time after, till this insane siege is ended.
I wrote this in an earlier post tonight and I’m sorry to repeat myself, but this makes me goddamn ashamed to be an American. Goddamn ashamed.
43 thoughts on “Gaza Flotilla Ships Depart Tuesday, U.S. Threatens American Flotilla Passengers With Prosecution – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
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Flotilla II prepares to sail for Gaza
Freedom Flotilla II, comprising ten ships carrying 1,000 activists from 20 countries prepares to sail to Gaza.
Bego Astigarraga Last Modified: 24 Jun 2011
Two groups leave U.S. to Israel: One to immigrate, the other to break Gaza blockade
Diverse groups of Americans recently hosted farewell parties in Washington, D.C.
By Natasha Mozgovaya
Who would immigrate to a supremacist state?
12 STEPS to END the ISRAEL- PALESTINE CONFLICT
1. STOP the ‘collective punishment’ of 1/2 million families in Gaza!
2. STOP the blockade already designated by the UN as illegal!
3. STOP the evictions of Arabs in Jerusalem, a UN international city!
4. STOP extra-judicial killing of Peace Activists, civilians & children!
5. STOP illegal expropriat¬ion of land & settlement on occupied territory!
6. STOP claiming democracy when political corruption is endemic!
7. STOP the torture of political prisoners in Israeli jails!
8. STOP state-spon¬sored political assassinat¬ions in Dubai & elsewhere!
9. STOP allowing nuclear stockpiles to remain uninspected by the IAEA!
10. STOP alleged war criminals visiting UK and avoiding arrest!
11. STOP the illegal use of white phosphorus as a weapon against civilians!
12. STOP the American arms race in the Middle East that will cause war!
Is that Israel’s 12-Step Program? It needs one.
@ E Doret,
Why did you conveniently forget to mention as STEP NUMBER ONE to Vote for DeJure Recognition of the State of Palestine in the UN General Assembly in September 2011.
Sorry, but you seem to create a smokescreen with your Full of Hot Air Talk. Is it Hasbara? Perhaps. Deception? Perhaps. Blindness and Stupidity? Perhaps. Thinking everyone else to be Stupid? Perhaps.
In any case, I do not trust the likes of you who stacks piles and piles of meaningless words and empty declarations BUT WILL NOT CALL everyone to publicly “Vote for DeJure Recognition of the State of Palestine in the UN General Assembly in September 2011.”
So, good man, here’s your chance to set your record straight and clean up your reputation. But I am not holding my breath.
I’m very worried. Lot’s of good, valuable people on board that Flotilla, whose voices are so indispensable to putting an end to Israeli Apartheid. If something happens to them who will carry on for them? This is what courage looks like as opposed to the spectacle of a fawning Congress.
It’s at times like this that one recognizes what it feels like to be Occupied and to have ones rights denied.
Our rights are being eroded on behalf of the Zionist State.
Why should you be sorry to express you’re “goddamn ashamed”? I’m goddamn ashamed! Every Zionist-occupied territory, ie government supporting Zionism should be goddamn ashamed.
Today, I’m “Howard Beale” and I’m mad as hell and goddamn ashamed that the rights of people are being trampled on behalf of a state that glorifies supremacy over those who are stateless and voiceless because all their rights are trampled with the complicity of the U.S.A.
What a bunch of crap! There are (and have been) permanently US citizens present in Gaza working for organisations that implement US government funded activities worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Clinton would have to arrested herself too for aiding this terrorist entity.
You ask: Can anyone tell me why Israel should have a ‘right to defend itself’ against unarmed civilians fulfilling their rights to protest against Israel’s illegal siege against Gaza? How is that “defense?” What threat do these peace activists pose to Israel or Israelis? By what right would any force be used against them?
OK, here goes. First, there is nothing at all illegal about Israel’s blockade of Gaza. The leadership of Gaza has attacked Israel with thousands of rockets and has publicly declared they will shoot more if and when they find it useful for their goals. The Hamas charter declares Palestinians’ religious duty to destroy Israel and its Jews using violet jihad. Those facts alone more than justify the blockade.
When a state is at war it has a right to use a maritime blockade to prevent weapons from reaching its enemy. It can stop and inspect ships anywhere outside its territorial waters (although not in the waters of any neutral state) if there is reason to believe the ships intend to break the blockade. These ships have all publicly declared that intention. This is a matter of clear established international maritime law.
Ray, listen big guy. You’re new here. Read the comment rules. You’ve violated several.
As for rebutting you. Here goes: Hamas has not attacked Israel with rockets for 2 yrs (w. the exception of 2 fired in the past few months). And those thousands of rockets were fired because ISRAEL violated previous ceasefires agreed to w Hamas. Why no mention of that? Because you didn’t know, you’re ignorant, or you just forgot? Hamas has not said they would shoot more when they find it useful for their goals. In fact, they’ve kept the ceasefire.
As for the Hamas Charter, that’s off limits here. We’ve flayed that dead horse a score of times before. Go take that nonsense elsewhere.
Israel is in the midst of a ceasefire with Hamas. So where’s the war? The blockade doesn’t prevent weapons fr reaching Gaza as Hamas gets all the weapons it needs through the Gaza tunnels. Further, the Flotilla does not bring weapons to Gaza. Its participants are unarmed. Under international law, no state may stop any ship in international waters esp. not an unarmed ship on a humanitarian mission. It may stop a ship in its own waters.
Ray, you don’t know diddly about international maritime law. And if you wish to make such claims use a credible source. And San Remo is not applicable my friend. We’ve been over that one too so don’t bother.
This is simply untrue.
On 7th April 2011 Hamas shot an anti tank rocket at a school bus, luckily, minutes before the attack most of the kids embarked the bus, so only the driver and one kid were hit.
During that weekend there were further 120 mortar and rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza. Those attacks targeted also the cities of Beer-Sheva, Ashdod and Ashkelon.
I don’t know how you can even think of claiming there were no Gazan attacks on Israel during two years. What is it, blindness, getting carried away, wanting so much to prove a point that you neglected reality ?
Everything coming from Gaza is not the Hamas, but you DO know that, don’t you ? Why don’t you read what people write before answering ? You can read, right ?
Just as settler Talibans burning down mosques, beating up Palestinian teenagers, killing shepherds are not official Israeli politics …or ?
Sorry to inform you but the Gov is responsible for any act of war towards another country.
Palestinians cannot hide behind “it is not the Gov, it is another organization” firing rockets.
That’s if it is the government of a nation. Are you saying that Hamas is the ruling party of the nation of Palestine? If so, that’d be news to me. Now, if Israel actually allowed the creation of a Palestinian state along with the policing powers such a state would need to control rogue elements within it, then I’d blame Hamas or whoever ran the place in a heartbeat. But until Israel recognizes Palestine, then I’m afraid Hamas isn’t a government and doesn’t run a country. It is a MOVEMENT running an enclave while every fiber of Israeli power is devoted to destroying it. Those aren’t conditions conducive to policing to ensure Israel’s security.
Okay, so you agree that Israel, and by extension all Israelis living within the Green Line, is responsible for what the settler nutcases are doing in the West Bank. Nice to know.
You still didn’t answer the question on equal rights in Israel, so I think we can draw our own conclusions.
Sure I agree. It was you using excuses.
In every country you can find hate crimes. The gov. job is to stop them just like it is their job to stop murder, rape and other criminal acts. My view is that Israel is not doing enough to stop hate crimes on Palestinians by settlers. I expect my gov. to find those who commit them and put them behind bars.
What I fail to find, however, are Palestinians who think the same way. When faced with the same argument, all i get is excuses and twisting logic that leads very fast to contradictions that tell me that no personal moral is applied but political goals.
Maybe if your own government actually prevented its own army & settlers from murdering Palestinian civilians often in cold blood, then Palestinians might be more receptive to the idea of punishing Palestinians for killing Israelis.
@ Free man
“It was you using excuses”.
I see absolutely nothing about excuses in my comments. I point out the fact that the rockets coming from Gaza are not under Hamas’ responsability.
But you are a hypocrite. You know as well as I that your governement and all those before this one – democratically elected and thus representing the Israelis – not only doesn’t punish settler violence against Palestinians, but encourage it.
And you can’t compare the violence of the oppressor and the oppressed: according to international law, armed resistance against foreign occupation IS legal. But then I guess the Israelis are occupied in your mind.
You still didn’t answer on the equal rights and obligations of all citizens within Israel.
Richard, You seem to center your opinion on the apparent lack of a state of war between Israel and Hamas. You say in your 1st sentence: ” Hamas has not attacked Israel with rockets for 2 yrs (w. the exception of 2 fired in the past few months).”.
Here’s a quote from the Telegraph from March of this year, just 3 months ago:
“Rockets have landed both deeper into Israel, striking cities like Ashkelon and Beersheba, and with greater intensity than at any time since Israel’s devastating military offensive against Gaza in December 2008 that killed 1,400 people.
The result has been to sow panic, with Israeli schools within rocket range being ordered to close until the weekend, and take the territory to the brink of a new war.
Since the end of Operation Cast Lead, as Israel code-named its 2008 incursion, Hamas has largely refrained from firing rockets into Israel, but is accused of allowing smaller groups to mount attacks, albeit on a much smaller scale than in years past.
But in a sudden departure from what Israel calls “the rules of the game”, Hamas fired 50 mortar shells at Israeli military positions this week and unusually claimed credit for the attacks.
The sudden change of tactic comes against the backdrop of protests, violently put down in Gaza, that have seen 100,000 people take to the streets of Palestinian towns to demand an end to the Islamist’s group long-standing rift with Fatah, its moderate, secular rival that controls the West Bank.”
Do you actually believe firing mortar shells across a border at Israel civilian homes and schools is not an act of war?
I won’t bother with your other claims for now as your opinion seems to rest on the lack of war issue – which is easily refuted above.
I said HAMAS had not fired rockets. I didn’t say NO ONE fired rockets. Of course, there are non-Hamas elements who periodically fire rockets at Israel, esp. if the latter violates a ceasefire. But Hamas desperately attempts to stop such firings when it can. BTW, the Telegraph is a Tory, right wing pro Israel publication. I’d feel a whole lot more comfortable if you could find a less biased source to quote.
As for firing mortar shells at Israel–no it’s not an act of war esp. considering that there are almost never any casualties from such weapons. This is a guerilla insurgency resisting Israeli Occupation. I don’t support such violence against Israel, not do I support Israel’s continued Occupation & defiance of international law in maintaining it.
This is again not true !
Hamas has fired rockets, many rockets.
On 7th April 2011 Hamas shot an anti tank rocket at a school bus, luckily, minutes before the attack most of the kids embarked the bus, so only the driver and one kid were hit.
During that weekend there were further 120 mortar and rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza. Those attacks targeted also the cities of Beer-Sheva, Ashdod and Ashkelon.
You’ve trotted out this incident numerous times as have others. I don’t support the killing of civilians by Palestinians or the IDF. But you’ve exploited this one long enough. Move on to another piece of hasbara propaganda please.
[comment deleted for comment rule violations–this is cut-and-paste hasbara material copied from another site, violating the comment rules which call for original comments]
Richard, Let’s be honest here. Your website claims – even in its name – to be concerned with broad principles of the morality of the Arab/Israeli conflict. If you are sincere then you must refrain from throwing out technical “yes but” points (which are very easily disputed as free man shows) as defense against important broader principles of the morality of war. It is those principles of right and wrong in this conflict that I am most concerned with. For me to continue I’ll require a similar concern from you.
I don’t assume you’d want to discuss these issues with someone who is carefully focused on the morality of this conflict as it is hard to see any moral justification for most of your comments. But I am willing to do my best to see your points if you argue them convincingly and are willing to reciprocate.
As I stated, you center your argument in this case, on your thesis that Israel is not justified to interfere with cargo shipments to Gaza because no state of war exists between Israel and Hamas. i.e. that Israel has no justification to suspect that if it freely allowed un-inspected shipments by sea to Gaza that any third state would attempt to ship weapons and ammunition into Gaza that would be used by Hamas (or its “wink and a nod” mercenaries to attack Israel.
Such an astoundingly illogical premise confounds all reasonable scrutiny. It seems to me only a committed hater of Israel and its Jews could pretend to believe such a counter-factual proposition. There is immense recent history to disprove this including . .
a) thousands of rockets and mortars fired into Israel and infiltration attacks including kidnappings from Gaza since Israel’s withdrawal from there. These rise and fall in intensity according to what Hamas can get away with – but a day or a week without an attack is hardly a declaration of peace
b) repeated ongoing statements by Hamas of their goal to never stop attacking the citizens of Israel until Israel is destroyed
c) zero statements by Hamas that such a long-standing core policy of their strategy has ever been contradicted and
d) the interception of several clandestine shipments of heavy weapons and long range rockets and other weapons from several Muslim states.
e) the recent detection and arrest in the Sinai of groups attempting to smuggle weapons shipments into Gaza from Egypt
Against this immense collection of undisputed and documented evidence – separate and independent from each other – you provide the narrow and easily disputed claim that no state of war exists between Hamas and Israel because Hamas has not fired any “rockets” lately.
Surely, you can do better than that – that is, if you wish to convince anyone who is not ideologically committed to Israel’s final destruction at the hands of those who have proudly claimed that unwavering goal since May of 1948.
Do you detect a note of cynicism in Ray of Seattle’s tone? As if he doesn’t believe I’m sincere. Why Ray, that’s downright mean-spirited of you. But I won’t hold it against you. I’ll only hold the inadequacy of yr arguments against you which is quite severe.
You have the chutzpah to talk about the “important principles of the morality of war” while defending Israel’s suffocation of Gaza and its decimation of Palestinian life along with its brutal Occupation and numerous wars and military operations which’ve killed by now tens of thousands of civilians across multiple countries of the region & over decades? YOu really do?
Ray, that’s a mistake right there. You see, you may comment here if you like. You may say what you like as long as it adheres to the comment rules. But you may not tell me how I may argue & you may not set the standards that determine whether or not my arguments find favor with the proper authorities. If you don’t like anything about what I say or how I say it there are many other addresses online. They would welcome you I’m sure.
Another mistake. You don’t get characterize what is the center or even periphery of my argument. You know why? Because hundreds have used almost precisely this terminology before & it’s always either a distortion of my views or outright lying. So I’ll presume in yr case it’s a distortion rather than a lie. But we’ll proceed fr. there.
Actually, that may be what YOU think I said, but personally I’d have no problem w. Israel inspecting this cargo in Gaza waters as long as it allowed the material to proceed to Gaza. The problem for me is the Israeli siege & blockade. If Israel actually allowed materials through under reasonable conditions that would be OK with me. I concede there are Gazans who mean Israel ill & the latter has a right to protect itself fr. them, within reason. So inspection is not a problem for me.
Nope, Ray. Again not what I said at all. Israel has a right to inspect anything entering Gaza fr. its own borders. And if it has reasonable suspicion like in the case of the Victoria that arms are aboard it has every right to stop such ships as long as they are in Gaza waters. Sorry to disappoint you, Ray, but you’re striking out right & left today. I guess it’s not yr day.
Ray, Ray, Ray. First, I didn’t say what you allege. 2nd even implying that I might be a hater of Israel & Jews is so outrageous, & such a violation of my comment rules that you’re banned. Now if you wish to respond with a personal message apologizing for your boorishness I’ll accept it & reinstate you w. a warning. But NO ONE but no one says what you said here & gets away with it. I suggested you read the comment rules I’m sure. But clearly you didn’t. Too bad for you, Ray.
Precipitated in almost every case by numerous Israeli violations of ceasefires including targeted killings, bombing of tunnels in which scores of Gazans have been killed & other acts of premeditated violence in direct violation of ceasefires ISRAEL agreed to. Ray, you can’t win here buddy. We know the facts, not just the parts of the facts that benefit our side. Sure, we know Gazans have fired missiles at Israel & in my case I condemn this. But unlike you I know not just the sins of one side, but the sins of both. And Israel’s sins, well they’re whoppers.
Now, Ray, besides the fact that others blazing a trail far before you have tried the same nonsense here before (so boring, Ray, to repeat yrselves), you don’t have have yr facts straight. I’ve offered this bet 10 or 20 times before to people just like you & somehow they’ve never been able to prove it: find a statement by any senior Hamas figure in the past say, 5 yrs that says what you claim all of Hamas believes. Because in fact, while there may be a few Hamas die hards to believe what you claim (just as there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis who want to exterminate the Palestinian people or send them to Tanzania if they could), no senior Hamas leader has come even close to saying anything like that in a long, long time. History isn’t yr strong suit, now Ray, is it? But maybe you can do some research & find what no one else here before you has been able to find.
You mean except for the widely reported (except in yr Seattle abode which must not have access to TV, radio, newspapers or the internet since you missed it) that Khaled Meshal offered to accept a Palestinian state in 1967 borders. And except for the fact that in the same interview he conceded that Hamas would only engage in resistance if the overall Palestinian people agreed to it (which all polls show they don’t). You mean except for those statements?
There was only ONE shipment, Ray. Sorry to disappoint. And no one has stated with any certainty what the origin of the weapons are. Perhaps Iran. But I think there may’ve even been U.S. originated weapons on that ship. But where do you get “several Muslim states,” Ray? You see, this is beginning to sound quite racist of you. The belief that many Muslim states want nothing more than to kill as many Israelis as they can.
Wow, Ray, that’s shocking! You’ve actually detected smugglers smuggling weapons into Gaza. Did you report this to the proper authorities? The news that Gazans feel the need to arm themselves against Israel’s onslaught is nothing new, Ray. Not that I agree w. such arming. But when you can persuade Israel to lay down its weapons, end the Occupation, live within 1967 borders & recognize a Palestinian state, that’s the day I’d join you in demanding an end to Palestinians smuggling weapons into their territory. Will you join me in demanding this? Somehow I didn’t think so. Now here you had me believing we were going to solve the I-P conflict together, Ray.
You mean all this “evidence” I just tore to shreds? “Undisputed” and “documented?” Not so much, Ray.
YOu took the words right outa my mouth, Ray. Maybe YOU can do better. I doubt it. But I doubt it’ll stop you fr. trying.
As I say, you’re banned. But if you wish to follow the comment rules & apologize for the smear, I’ll reinstate you. Yr choice big guy.
Addendum to my previous longer comment:
“As for firing mortar shells at Israel–no it’s not an act of war esp. considering that there are almost never any casualties from such weapons. ”
This is a truly an absurd statement. The reason states are created is to protect their citizens from external attack – which are deemed acts of war by all civilized nations.
“Of course, there are non-Hamas elements who periodically fire rockets at Israel, esp. if the latter violates a ceasefire. But Hamas desperately attempts to stop such firings when it can.”
If what you say is true, then Israel is still justified in inspecting cargo shipments into Gaza so that weapons do not fall into the hands of those “non-Hamas elements who periodically fire rockets at Israel” – as you have admitted here.
Israel’s moral and legal justification is self defense in both cases.
The PLO engaged in raids on Israel fr. Jordanian territory in the 1960s & Egyptian fedayeen did the same in the 1950s. Yet Israel somehow never declared war on either country due to these acts. I wonder why? Perhaps because Israel was afraid that Jordan and Egypt might actually fight back whereas Hamas is too weak to do so in any meaningful way. So you see it’s easy for you to claim Israel is in a state of war w. Hamas because Hamas cannot destroy Israel. If say, Turks could lob mortars into Israel I daresay you & Israel would think twice about declaring a state of war with Turkey. Because Turkey might actually whip the IDF’s ass if there ever was a real war between them; or at least make it a fairer fight.
Well, no it isn’t. Because Israel actually doesn’t inspect the cargo when it boards the ship. It seizes the ship & arrests the passengers. That is not self-defense. That is actually an act of aggression on the high seas. Nor does the siege maintain Israel’s defenses because weapons enter Gaza through tunnels Israel can’t control. Actually, if Israel ended the siege ironically it would have greater control of what enters Gaza because it could inspect material entering from Israel & it could have influence over international monitors inspecting material entering from Egypt. But self defense is a lie plain & simple. This is an act of political collective punishment. It has nothing to do w. security whatsoever. And you, you’re just yr average hasbarista.
Either ‘Free man’ lacks basic comprehension skills or he is a hasbarista troll. I tend to think both.
He has posted exactly the same comment on the school bus earlier on this thread, and he apparently doesn’t care when he’s told that rockets from Gaza is not the equivalent of Hamas. That teenager killed in the bus has been mentioned so many times that one could get the impression that we are talking about hundreds of killed.
Of course the list has no value without any link to judge the sources. Dekba is NOT credible to anyone else but brainwashed Zionists. So when Hamas has claimed responsability for one of the attacks, according to this list, we need to know the source.
Maybe Zionist-occupied wikipedia ???
According to this list nobody was killed by the rockets. Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot: A CAT WAS KILLED in the January 8th rocket attack, and mysteriously the four Palestinians killed by retaliation while playing football are not mentioned either.
Biased source, you say ???
We are waiting for ‘Free man’ to provide a list of all the Palestinians killed or seriously injured in the West Bank by settler nutcases in the same period. It’s not necessary to mention neither the agressions without lifelong handicaps nor the sheeps and other killed animals.
Mr. Silverstein, you said:
“no it’s not an act of war esp. considering that there are almost never any casualties from such weapons”
let me understand that, an Act of war becomes one only if there are casualties involved ?
Mr. Silverstein, you said “As for firing mortar shells at Israel–no it’s not an act of war esp. considering that there are almost never any casualties from such weapons.”
since when the number of casualties is a prerequisite for an act to be considered an Act of War ?
any act which is part of an armed conflict (firing MS is such) is an act of war whether or not war has been declared.
and the above is part of the US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 113B § 2331. Definitions.
Please do not let your imagination run free.
You mean if a member of a white supremacist militia fired a few mortar rounds into Canada, they would declare war against us? Generally war begins when two countries commence full scale hostilities against ea. other w. the intent of pulverizing the other side into non-existence. Israel may intend this for the Gazans but they certainly realize they can’t do this to Israel. So for you this may be a war but sorry, the rest of the world doesn’t see it that way. And I’m afraid Bibi & Gantz will have to persuade a judge of the ICC that what’s currently transpiring is all out war, or any sort of war.
A war isn’t a war simply because you or even Israel declares it to be so. I haven’t read the U.S. code you offered but I don’t think U.S. code will hold in the Hague. You might want to examine the relevant portions of the Geneva Convention to familiarize yrself w. the charges that will likely be brought against a few of yr leaders (& a few Palestinians as well).
Ray in Seattle,
You are using logic. This is a violation of comment rule 6c. Common sense is also prohibited.
Snark that substitutes for debate is definitely a No-No. If you want to be a comedian hone yr craft elsewhere, you’re not funny or even cute. If you want to debate or discuss be my guest.
“Generally war begins when two countries commence full scale hostilities against ea. other w. the intent of pulverizing the other side into non-existence”
A war and an Act of War are two different things Mr. Silverstein.
for example on May 31 2011 the Pentagon has concluded that computer sabotage coming from another country can constitute an act of war.
Not every act of war leads to a war.
Ray in Seattle. Your facts are wrong. Hamas did abide by the agreement and it was Israel that launched the war against Hamas and Gaza in 2008-2009. No rockets were fired and Israel STILL claimed they were being fired to justify the assault on Gaza and THEN to impose the blockade. Blind supporters of Israel don’t like facts. but here are some, research I did using Israeli sources on who really fired rockets and killed civilians and who started the Gaza War that the Palestinians are now rightfully still protesting:
Get your facts right.
The Gaza War, known as Operation Cast Lead started 27/12 that year, After 68 mortar and 125 rocket attacks in November and 241 mortar and 361 rocket attacks in December.
And you’re forgetting the Israeli bombing of the Gaza tunnel killing 10 (approx.) workers which was a gross violation of the ceasefire & which many observers say was a deliberate provocation by Israel which WANTED to war that followed. It was THAT incident in Nov. I believe which preceded the rocket fire. Now, why would you forget that?
You already forgot your previous response ?
You wrote there that a single attack is not a cause of war.
Now if Hamas attacks Israel with rocket and mortars, it is not cause of war, but if Israel bomb a single tunnet build from Gaza to go under the Israeli border it is ?
You are contradicting yourself.
In addition, during the so called “ceasefire” there had been almost 40 rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from Gaza. Now I don’t know about you, but try to think (if you can) how it feels when a rocket is shot at your kids when they go to school. Not 3 time a day, but once a week. This is the Hamas “ceasefire”.
So 40 Gazan attacks you can justify and 1 by Israel not ?
I never claimed that bombing the tunnel was an act of war. I said it was the immediate precipitating incident which caused Hamas to fire rockets at Israel, which in turn led to Cast Lead.
I would never live in a country which couldn’t make peace w. its enemies for 60 yrs & killed them w. impunity the entire time. And many other Israeli parents who are leaving the country feel the same way acc. to the research of U. of Penn. Prof. Ian Lustick.
The lives and safety of US citizens acting legally and honourably VS. unconditional support of Israeli piracy for purely political expediency.
The vile choice has been made.
The US government and media reaction has been disappointing to say the least. Threatening the activists with prison is truly shameful.
Still the game has not started yet. Here is possibly some good news.
I just saw this news article from Kuwait. There may be an Arab boat participating in the flotilla. Wouldn’t that be wonderful!!!
This is the only mention I found on GoogleNews. There have been some reports of Arab boats in the past which have subsequently not sailed.
@ RichardSilverstein, You ask:
“Can anyone tell me why Israel should have a ‘right to defend itself’ against unarmed civilians fulfilling their rights to protest against Israel’s illegal siege against Gaza? How is that “defense?” What threat do these peace activists pose to Israel or Israelis? By what right would any force be used against them?”
Why continue to whine about the obvious? It is high time to recognize and uncover all the obvious as part of a Israeli (and its supporters’) conspiracy to STOP the UNGA Palestine vote in September2011.
Please check this (Friday 25june2011) NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html and tell me whether you still think that AbuMazen is not a MossadMole and that he is not now entering the phase of doing Netanyahu’s bidding.
I suggest you start a TikunOlam blog-wide petition calling for organizations and individuals to electronically sign their names in support of the UNGA vote for DeJure recognition of the State of Palestine in September 2011.
The is really the seemingly IRREVERSIBLE step that Israel cannot live with and wants to stop from happening at all costa.
Nothing else will mean much if (1) the UNGA vote is stopped or postponed, and/or (2) the Gaza Flotilla is somehow convinced to stop its efforts to reach and dock in Gaza Port. So I suggest TikunOlam “constructively” concentrate on these two objectives now. Thanks.
I voted for Obama because I naively thought there might be a shred of humanitarian values left in post-Bush American government. There is not. This threat to prosecute protesters of an illegal blockade is a purely executive action for which Obama is accountable.
I am no longer on the fence – Obama just lost my vote, for good, irreversible. If his opponent is of like mind, I will simply not vote.