Turkel Commission Vindicates Israeli Massacre
Perhaps only in Israel can even a dead man rise from the grave to sing his country’s praises (well OK, it could happen in a few other places too like North Korea, Belarus and perhaps Iran). That’s what’s happened to poor Shabtai Rosenne, former Israeli foreign ministry official, appointed along with several other elderly cheerleaders to vindicate the Israeli massacre (called officially by the panel a “maritime incident”) aboard the Mavi Marmara. No sooner was the man appointed than a picture appeared on the front page of an Israeli newspaper with him sitting in PJs next to his Filipino male nurse. And then a few weeks later, just after the panel began its deliberations he was dead.
But his spirit lingers on. They probably saved an empty chair for him during deliberations. Kinda like Elijah. So, contrary to the Ashrey prayers which proclaim that the “dead shall not praise God” (only the living do that), even the dead sing Israel’s praises. In fact, one wonders why Bibi even bothered appointing anyone living to people this commission. It would save trouble to have Rosenne appoint a few other dead Israeli leaders to join him and issue the report from heaven. That might’ve offered the report a tad more credibility and authority than it’s currently enjoying. Turkey has spat on the results as “lacking credibility.” No one else in the world who’s a reasonable observer will feel any more fondly towards it.
In fact, the results beggar belief. IDF naval commandos killed nine Turks, one of whom was also a U.S. citizen. Their crime? They were running the Israeli blockade of Gaza. While the rest of the world and most experts in international law see the siege as illegal, Turkel and his as good as dead guys see both the siege and the attack on the Turkish ship as fully justified. According to them, it’s perfectly acceptable to place 1.5 million civilians under siege for no valid military purpose whatsoever.
Returning to the weaknesses in the panel’s procedures…just for starters, it actually expected Turkish victims might testify. Why? Why would they come after the hospitality they were accorded following their kidnapping, in which they were imprisoned and all their gear of any value stolen? Was the commission going to house them in the King David Hotel with a 24 hour security guard to ensure they wouldn’t be accorded the same treatment again? Those who did testify who were any less than IDF boosters, such as Israeli human rights NGOs, were treated with barely concealed contempt. Why would a Turkish victim subject him or herself to such hostility?
The fix was in. The inquiry delivered the result expected. Now Israel can say it did its duty and the rest of the world can laugh in disbelief. Just the way Israel wants things apparently. It would’ve been far too dangerous to have a genuinely independent panel. Israel doesn’t allow such things when it cannot control the outcome. It really doesn’t care what the world thinks about it. For domestic political consumption it needs to be able to tell Israelis it did its best to comply with the world’s wishes, and that it’s not responsible if the world thinks it wasn’t good enough. After all, that’s what the world always says about us now, doesn’t it (say Israel’s leaders)?
Oh, but wait. The panel did actually make one tiny criticism. Yes, you heard me right. They actually found one little thing to criticize about Israel’s treatment of Gaza. No you cynics, it wasn’t that the border isn’t sowed up tight enough. It’s that the IDF should be more merciful in dealing with Gazans who need medical care outside the enclave. It also said Israel should be more focussed in harming Hamas and not the civilians of Gaza. It’s touching really. And so humane and heartwarming of them. But how, pray tell, when you’ve put a lid on an entire territory can you pinpoint the harm on one small group of people within it? You can’t. So thanks for all the concern, but give it a rest. This is utter nonsense.
To read the whole report, see here.
On a related note, James Traub has an in depth profile of the Turkish foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, in which the reporter claims that the only “failure” in Turkey’s foreign policy has been its supposedly over-the-top response to the Mavi Marmara assault. Note the quotation from the “U.S. government official” cum Israeli booster who has got to be Dennis Ross or Dan Schapiro, Obama’s pro-Israel point men:
The net effect of Turkey’s vehement reaction to the flotilla, which by an unfortunate quirk of timing came two weeks after the nuclear deal with Iran and a week before the sanctions vote, was to wreck whatever remained of its relations with Israel and to seriously harm its standing in the U.S. “The hyperbolic and provocative rhetoric” in the aftermath of the Mavi Marmara incident, says a senior administration official, “has interfered with what has been a historic and hugely important, positive Turkish-Israeli relationship.” And it has done real damage in the court of public opinion, where Turkey looks like the enemy of the United States’ best friend in the Middle East as well as the friend of its worst enemy. After the Mavi Marmara incident, Thomas L. Friedman asserted in The Times, perhaps hyperbolically, that Turkey had joined “the Hamas-Hezbollah-Iran resistance front against Israel.”
The analysis contained in this passage is so off-key that it’s worth dwelling on it for a moment. First, why would any American care how Turkey reacted to the Mavi Marmara? None does. Except of course those who are ardently pro-Israel like Aipac’s members and those Congress members who do as they’re told and whip out their “scold Turkey” cue card when necessary. So it’s utter nonsense to say that Turkey has harmed relations with the U.S. What this passage and those quoted in it really mean to claim is that because Turkey has harmed its relations with Israel (but didn’t Israel choose first to harm its own relations with Turkey by killing so many of its citizens?), and the U.S. is Israel’s bestest friend in the whole world, that Turkey better look out. Because if you rile up Israel too much you’re gonna rile up the big guy too eventually. And Turkey, according to this lopsided thinking, wouldn’t want to do that now, would it??
And why pray is the Turkey-Israel relationship “hugely important?” And to whom? Of course it’s hugely important to Israel as Turkey used to be the only major Muslim country which had any relations with it, good or bad. So what precisely is Turkey losing by having this cold front blow in? Again, the U.S. official quoted here is speaking entirely from Israel’s vantage point, which is why I think it’s a dead giveaway that Ross is the one speaking here.
Finally, we have the typically ludicrous Tom Terrific quote claiming that by defending its own national honor and putting Israel in the dock for killing its own citizens that Turkey, which single-handedly negotiated an end to the Syria-Israel conflict which Olmert then proceeded to completely screw up, has somehow joined the armed resistance along with Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran. Stuff ‘n nonsense.
What I’d like to know is, what was Turkey supposed to do after the massacre? Sit back and say to Israel: “That wasn’t quite hard enough. Why don’t you hit me again?” Is that the way nations conduct international diplomacy and protect their interests? Do they turn the other cheek and say, I know you’re a good guy and didn’t mean it? Or do they vigorously protect themselves and their citizens from such murderous acts as committed by Israel?
- Turkey rejects Israel raid report (bbc.co.uk)
76 thoughts on “Turkel Commission Vindicates Israeli Massacre – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
Comments are published at the sole discretion of the owner.
The Tirkel committee is a joke.
The responsibility of the way the flotilla was stopped lie with the Israeli government. They sent the wrong people to do the wrong job. If you send man whose job is to kill people (army commando) to stop a flotilla, don’t be surprised you end up with dead people. What did they expect, that the people on the boat will surrender without a fight ? Did they come all the way for that ?
That is just plain stupidity.
You either don’t stop them, or you stop them without shedding a drop of blood.
The Tirken committee is again the wrong people for the wrong job.
It was Shabtai Rosenne who died. Turkel is still alive and on TV.
Leave it to Sol to catch my mistake, which was only published for a few minutes before I caught it. Eagle eyed Sol! Thanks.
Never let the facts confuse you.
You have been doing great without them till now
Hey that’s really a sharp, cogent comment full of substance & wisdom. Yr attempt at wit has fallen flat as everything about you does. Keep up the witless snark & you’ll be on the road to oblivion here.
I’m talking about calling what happened on the flotilla a massacre:
The soldiers were attacked on board with clubs, knifes and other stuff. They were in life threatening situation. They reacted by switching from paint guns to pistols. This goes under self defense.
The legal status of this act, is legitimate.
The people who sent them there, should have known that by sending soldiers to do the job, this may be the result.
On the other hand, we can safely assume they did not think it will be. Cause by killing people on board the ship, the world public response against Israel is so much worse than any ship coming into Aza. I’m taking into account here only win-lose considerations, not the moral ones.
So if by win-lose considerations the PM and defense minister approved of the action, they are just plain stupid.
People who cause death to others (again, I’m not going into the fact that there is a war and all the other issues) by stupidity are not responsible for “Massacre”.
Well, let’s look at what happened. The IDF attacked a ship that was doing nothing wrong except running an illegal Israeli blockade. So the navy sent armed soldiers to commandeer the ship. Those soldiers were met with resistance in the form of clubs and sticks (I’ve seen no evidence of any knives of stab wounds on any soldiers). The ship was boarded for no legal reason. A few of the passengers resisted. The soldiers were beaten. None seriously. Those who were beaten were actually tended by passengers with first aid. For this Israel massacred 9 passengers. Yes, massacre. That’s what it was.
The status of this massacre is illegal & illegitimate. And yes, political leaders who cause death by their own stupidity ARE responsible for the massacre.
But I do agree with the last few sentences of yr comment. Israel would’ve been a lot better off allowing the ship to dock in Gaza as it had done in the past for other ships. It’s decision to attack was stupid, as you say.
if you didn’t see that soldiers were being stubbed with knifes, it’s because you are not being very objective and you were letting your own interpertation take over the facts.
but since everything is on youtube, and espcially for you:
(Interview with the marmara captain, you can see that he is being tourchered)
( Footage of soldiers being attacked – Knife at time marker 1:06)
So is it your claim that if an israeli soldier is stabbed that this justifies wholesale murder of 9 people by idf guns? You don’t believe in proportionality of force do u? Which is precisely how israel got itself into this mess. And why did they even need to board at all?
This is just incredible. Our newly arrived Hasbarists, IlanP and Freeman, continue exposing the official Israeli crap on the Mavi Marmara Murders and post ‘revolutionnary’ videos exonerating the pacific Israeli soldiers.
This event was discussed here for weeks when it happened, all the Israeli propaganda has been debunked and I admire Richard for having the patience to discuss this over and over again with every new propagandist landing here. “Muhammed al-Dura”, “the Hamas hiding under the Shifa-hospital in Gaza”, Barak’s “generous offer”, “the 7 Arab armies attacking the new-born Jewish State” etc etc. Do you guys follow the same Hasbara-list ?
Dear deir Yassin
the personal tone of your reply is extremely pathetic.
either you can refute the pictures or you can’t as simply as that.
when you can’t you, you always resort to personal attacks, i’m no more hasbartist then you or anyone else who states his opinion on this site.
it’s about time you’ll start dealing with facts and not with your interpretation of how others see the facts.
You’ve deliberately manipulated my comment which you turned into “someone who wants the Jews to go back to Germany and Poland”. You never answered my commentary on that purpose.
You stated that Turkey helped al-Qaïda in Irak, and all you could come up with was a few lines from al-Hayât on a release TO COME. You never answered to that.
Now you post one of those IDF-footages that we’ve all seen hundreds of times, with their red, yellow and green circles to guide our interpretation. They’re all cut and rearranged, and mostly without sound.
Those are just a few examples.
You want me to believe that you’re not spreading propaganda: as soon as you’re asked to explain further or prove what you state, you just drop out.
Dear Deir Yassin,
i didn’t manipulate anything, should i remind you what Richard himself wrote in response to your comment ?
it’s funny, how when caught with both hands in the cookie jar you scream manipulation.
Iv’e seen few days ago a TV program on community TV who was dedicated to Israel Apartheid week, in which lubna masarwa stated (she’s an israeli Arab) the she doesn’t want to live next to jews. (it was in san jose ca if anyone wants to look it up) so it slipped through your fingers and your real opinion came out, don’t make a big deal out of it.
Al- Qaeda and Iraq, i provided the links, i downloaded the entire cable communication from wiki leaks yesterday and will provide Richard the document itself in the next few days.
and as for, excuse me, your dumb notion about the IDF released videos, i have no idea what your training with night vision optics is. I have more experience then you using night vision optics, and i still find the images blurry, and yes israel wanted to grab your attention, nothing wrong with it. by the video wasn’t edited in the sense that it wasn’t cut and nothing was added to it (and any one who deals with video editing can testify to that)
One last thing, History, the Egyptian army was stopped 35 KM from tel-aviv, and it was stopped by 4 IAF airplanes.
we know now that the egyptian army was planning on reaching the city of Yavne (from the Egyptian army war plans) to create distraction and draw Irseali forces from the northern and eastern parts to Tel-Aviv and allow the Jordanian Legion and the Syrian Army conquer the city of Haifa. The Egyptian army moved a head in two columns, one along the coast highway (which was stopped next to ashdod) the other moved along the route of beer-sheba – Jerusalem path and was stopped next to the city of beit-shemesh.
You have some nerves talking about manipulation and facts twisting.
“So it slipped through your fingers and your real opinion came out.”
You are a liar. And I simply don’t accept your insinuations. You might have problems with either your reading or your comprehension skills but I’m fed up with Zionists who deliberately manipulate comments to make other people look like anti-semitic. FED UP. And I’m not letting you away with that. There’s no way of understanding what I wrote this way, even if you’re a immature child. I wrote “IF the Israeli Jews don’t want to live in equality with the indigenous population, . . . ” and you simply cut that off. That’s manipulation.
My answer that you never bothered to read: January 10, 11:55 – you could eventually ask someone to translate !
And don’t cover behind Richard’s commentary. He was merely asking for a clarification.
I might as well call you an “Anti-Arab racist”, cutting and rearranging some of your statements to prove that.
And I have no idea what you’re talking about with your Egyptian story. What’s the point ? Well, I guess there’s none, you’re just jumping from one topic to another . . .
Dear Deir Yassin.
excuse me, but i will not go down to your level.
seems to me you are taking out on me your anger and hate towards the entire Zionist movement.
the more your write the more you expose your true opinions.
I’m no racist, i actually own an olive grove in israel not too far from the green line (west of) and I employe many Palestinians who reside east of the green line, they are like family to me and i am invited to every single hafla in their village, i respect them they respect me. You show no respect to people who don’t share the same opinion as you do. you distort the fact and anyone who would oppose you, is a Zionist and Hasbaratist etc, etc, ect.
and you refer to these terms in an extremely disingenuous way.
as for the history lesson you received, few massages above you refereed to the facts that israel was attacked by the armies of the arab countries during the war of 1948, in other places you even claimed the Egyptian army never crossed into what should have been the israeli territory based on the UN division plan.
And as i said previously, you have the nerve to call me a liar.
the camel my dear doesn’t see his own humpback.
IlanP: Back off. Deir Yassin is a valued member of this community. You are as well though not when you go on the warpath as you have here. Don’t make this a knock down drag out fight and don’t escalate it to the pt. you have. I want this particular conversation bet. you to be over & want yr accusations against her to end. Let’s move on to other subjects.
BTW, lots of people hate the Zionist movement. Even I offer harsh critiques of the mainstream Zionists. So there is nothing wrong w. this. Hating Israel or wishing its destruction is another story & nothing Deir Yassin has said justifies yr charges against her.
What you say reminds me a little of the way in which old Dutch people from the colonial period in Indonesia speak of their relations with the Indonesians. Dutch employees are never referred to as ‘family’ but the relations with the Indonesians were always so great that they were ‘like family’. The truth is of course that the relations were far from equal, and what the Indonesian side really thought we never hear.
Who did the olive grove belong to before 1948, and what happened to those people? Have you ever tried to find out?
I don’t care about your paternalistic overwhelming love for your Palestinian workers, what I care about is your deliberate lying about my statement (after mixing me up with Shirin)
I wrote to Shmuel (who asked Shirin if she wanted to send the Jews back to Germany):
“Yoy apparently have no problem with the fact that you, an English-born Jew could move to Israel while the native population who was expulsed, can’t return to their homes. Why is it so shocking to ask people to go back where they come from IF (that’s where Ilan cuts off my sentence) they won’t accept to live with the native population”
In Ilan’s mind that becomes “from someone who expects Jews to go back to places they came from, from someone who denies the Jews to have equal rights to reside in the land of Israel, from someone like that I do not expect any other than the disregard of the truth”.
You never cared to reread the context, you cut my sentence into two, taking the half that served your accusations Personnally I don’t care what you think of my opinions, but when you accuse here me of wanting to “send the Jews back to where they come from” you better have good evidence. You haven’t, and I know you haven’t because this is not and has never been my opinion.
Richard. I’m sorry,I had to get this out. I promise, I won’t touch this subject again.
Thanks for yr clarification of the ellided sentence. I agree that the quotation of what you wrote, along with the ellision, did not justify IlanP’s interpretation & took yr statement out of context.
Elisabeth, you are so full of self-righteousness it’s unbelievable.
1. Like family because that is what they are, they are not my blood line they are just as important. a very accurate description of our relationship.
2. Just to satisfy your curiosity yes i did find what happened to the people who owned the grove before 1948, they were all executed by the Israelis who conquered the area.
the fact that the orchard, about 8 acres in size if you must ask, was planted by me about 18 years ago, has nothing to do with it of course. you are prejudice, even a bit racist and it’s about time you’ll look in the mirror without blinking.
The way you described those who work for you did come across as rather colonial & perhaps paternalistic. Though I don’t know anything about this relationship other than what you tell us so it’s hard to know.
Your orchard stands on land stolen by the State from its previous rightful inhabitants. Of course it has everything to do with you & yr state. Yr gov’t are thieves & you are inadvertently an accessory to the theft. I would at least have pangs if I were you. THe fact that you have a clear conscience indicates the level of the pathology I spoke of in another reply to you.
I’ve asked you to tone down the rhetoric concerning Deir Yassin. Accusing her of racism is NOT toning down the rhetoric. I’ll ask you again and I won’t ask you a 3rd time.
Yes i believe in a proportional response, i also know that the soldiers reaction was very much so. this was no ship of peace activists, the ship was taken from their hands by a group of para-military folks who belonged to the IHH.
Those guys came to fight, and it was a battle field.
look at all the testimonies of people who participated, look at what was published by MK. Zuabi, look at the videos that were published by culture of resistance, one thing is evident the upper deck, where all of the fighting took place was cleared from anyone who wasn’t an IHH member, and no other personal was allowed there. all the folks who spoke against the Israeli murder, weren’t even close to where things happened. many videos were released by the state of Israel that show that this was not massacre but a battle field.
Israel took over 6 ships that day, the only ship where people were hurt was the MAVI MARARA, because that is what they planned.
I guess you wouldn’t feel the same way if it your 20 yr old son had been one of the 9 killed. Unlike you, I can put myself in the position of both sides and see that even if I were a parent of an IDF soldier I would understand that my child’s life, even under attack, was never in danger as proven by the number & seriousness of injuries sustained. As the 9 surviving families. They only have cemetery plots to visit. This was a disproportional response as is virtually all Israeli military response to any perceived threat whether real, imaged & greatly exagerrated. And it really part of the Israeli-IDF pathology, a very serious one that prohibits it fr. seeing reality right in front of their face. Every threat is existential & must be met w maximal force, which is the only thing that the enemy understands, blah, blah, blah.
Men with sticks who are defending 600 people fr. military attack are not para-military. A military has weapons, guns, etc. The defenders of the ship had none of this. They didn’t come to fight. Actually the naval commandos rappeled onto the ship and this was an act of aggression not justified under international law. It was piracy on the high seas, not in Israeli or even Gazan waters.
As for the rest of yr conspiracy mongering–it’s more nonsense. You don’t know any more than I what went on on that deck other than that IDF soldiers pumped rounds at point blank range into the bodies of men & boys who had nothing more than sticks & a chain, if that.
Israel’s videos show nothing at all of what you claim. We’ve written thousands of words about the Mavi Marmara. I’m not going to allow you to repeat claims made ad nauseam already here by others before you. Do NOT reopen this subject. I have no interest in hearing propaganda justifying the unjustifiable massacre of 9 civilians merely for defending their ship fr. attack.
End the siege now, then there won’t have to be any massacres, kidnapping or piracy. Rejoin the family of nations by acting as other nations do. Then you can tell me Israel behaves rationally & proportionally. Till then, your claims fall on deaf ears because they aren’t credible. Rather, they insult the dead.
Richard e tu brutus ?
maybe people here should get a short lesson i geography ?
anything west of the green line isn’t disputable, that’s where my orchard is,
You owe me an apology for calling me a thieve.
and my racist comment was directed at Elisabeth.
i suggest you would be less biased and more observant.
I said that your government was the thief because it exterminated the previous owners & expropriated their property, selling it to you. YOu are not the thief, but only an accessory after the fact esp. since you have such a clean conscience regarding the crime committed by Israel against the previous owners in your name & the name of your fellow citizens.
“Anything west of the green line isn’t disputable”
This is, of course, not true.
The Resolution 194 (dec 1948) on the Palestinain right of return states in article no. 11:
“Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensations should be paid for the property of those CHOOSING not to return and for loss of or damage to property . . ”
> UN resolutions > General Assembly > 1948 > resolution 194
All the UN resolutions, declarations and minutes from every UN meeting concerning “the question of Palestine’ are available on this UN-site.
Despite resolution 194 no one in the world will expect israel to let 5 millions Palestinian refugees immigrate into the Israeli territory.
the world is in favor of a solution in which israel will withdraw back to the green line, and that makes anything west of the green line indisputable.
Not so fast. The Green Line is an acceptable border for Israel, but doesn’t resolve the claims of those residents who were expelled or exterminated fr. within that same border in 1948. Yr property is not indisputable since you know for a fact that its previous owners were killed, meaning the property was expropriated fr. the surviving family members if any.
i was being sarcastic, trying to show Elisabeth and now you how prejudice you guys are.
if there is a way to pass blame on US Israelis you guys will not miss it, regardless of facts.
and that’s why i states that Elisabeth was racist and you were biased. unbelievable.
i think that since you guys are disputing the rights of the Israelis for their own safe haven, i just go pack and return to Poland.
So now I am a ‘racist’. Whatever. You lash out like an idiot.
I recognize the same colonial mindset in you that bothers me in some of my fellow countrymen. I think it is you yourself who has a hard time looking in the mirror.
And by the way, what do your workers think of what happened to the people who owned your piece of land? Do they think too, that the present ownership is indiputable? I am sure you must know, as you are so close with them. Or if you don’t know, ask them next time when you invite them into your home for a party.
Yes you are prejudiced and a racist. why ?
because you assumed that my orchard belonged to a Palestinian, you assumed it was stolen. you had no issues assuming the owners were murdered etc. etc. etc. and you continue with that dumb notion despite the fact that i stated that i planted the orchard 18 years ago.
so who lashes like an idiot ? You are.
She didn’t assume anything. She asked a question which you interpreted as an accusation. YOU were the one who said the previous owners were murdered. OF course she would believe it if you wrote it w/o a shread of apparent irony.
Again, IlanP, I don’t like the harsh rhetoric at least some of which comes fr. your mouth & is due to your own presumptions. So tone it down.
I ASKED who the owners were before 1948. This is not a strange question considering Israel’s history, YOU then told me they were killed. So I believed you, as I could not think you would joke about such a thing. (Heard any good Holocaust jokes recently?) You really have no shame.
You seem to think that ‘nobody’ owned your piece of land, and call me a racist when I assume that that is nonsense, and that you should be able to find out what happened to them. (Did you notice by the way that after you told me you planted it I referred to it as a ‘piece of land’ before you owned it, and not an orchard?)
Maybe you can ask your Palestinian ‘family’ about who the owners were. I am also sure they will really enjoy your ‘joke’. Try it on them if you dare.
You have a very strange way of asking question you asked: “Who did the olive grove belong to before 1948, and what happened to those people? Have you ever tried to find out?”
would you like to count the number of assumptions in your question ?
as to who owned that piece of land prior to 1948, it was owned by Jews who were expelled from their home by force, and then for few years it was occupied by others, until i bought it.
what you fail to understand is that your notion and the denial of Jewish right to part the land between the sea and the river(which is reflected in your question and allegations) will push all of us towards the right. towards nationalism and extreme.
where are you from ? because the owner of this blog, is located on Native American Land, and to preach others they stall a land being in that position…. well that’s the definition of hypocrisy.
one main different between Amrica and Israel is the Jews returned to their homeland which from they were expelled by force twice, American wanted better future.
You simply don’t understand yrself the context of her questions & the nuance of it. She isn’t denying you anything. She is insisting that you make yrself aware of the Original Sin that was committed when Israel was founded at the expense of 1-million expelled Palestinian residents of the country. I know Israeli Jews who actually have researched the property they own, its history, who owned it before 48. That is the beginning of some sort of reconciliation. But your historical amnesia makes the problem worse not better. You must start w. honesty, sincerity & transparency about the past. Most Israelis don’t.
As for pushing Israel to the right, are you serious? If you go any more to the right you’ll (not you personally) be memorizing Mein Kampf! Not only that, but the farther to the right Israel drifts the less its future is ensured. The more instability, the more violence, the more likely unwanted intervention to impose a settlement.
The U.S. government, unlike Israel, has made some (not perfect and not enough, but some) attempts to redress the injustices done to Native Americans. When Israel has done half as much for its own indigenous inhabitants & expellees then you we can talk.
And in doing so they expelled another people. My sense of Jewish identity & ethics feels deeply the sense of this injustice. You’d do better to absorb a bit of that noxious Galut mentality that we have over here & feel a bit more for those you’ve displaced.
And btw as my friend, Prof. Haber explains in his blog, the Romans never expelled the Jews from Judea. Many Jews left Judea after the Roman conquest for many reasons, but there was no wholesale expulsion. That is why there has been a continuous settlement of at least some Jews in Judea/Palestine/Israel since that era.
And I should remind you that while Israelites were expelled by the Babylonians before that, one of their great kings (Cyrus) actually encouraged Jews to return and resettle their land. Do you think there could ever be any wise Israeli leader who would do the same for the Palestinian people?
The fact that you find the question so unfounded that you think it appropriate to joke about it shows the extent to which you deny and ridicule what happened to the Palestinians.
Stop accusing me of opinions I do not hold i.e. my so-called “denial of Jewish right to part the land between the sea and the river.” My question has to do with honesty about the past, not with a call to get out.
FYI I am from the Netherlands, my ancestors were cheese-farmers from the provinces of Utrecht and Friesland.
I’m fairly convinced that what led to the death of 9 activists was LEGAL according to international law, or at least can be interpreted as such. That isn’t to say that it should have happened or that it was the best solution.
Something tells me you haven’t read a page of the report. I like to read things before I judge them. If you’d read it, you’d know that one of the first things the report does is distinguish (according to international law) between a blockade and a siege which aren’t exactly the same.
Indeed a committee issued by Israel and for Israel is to be taken with more than one grain of salt. But I am no international law expert and the report is the most comprehensive legal analysis of the blockade & the flotilla that I have seen. I do believe there was space for interpretation in favor of Israel but that only means that either the law is flawed (& should be changed), it isn’t (& apparently the death of 9 nine activists was entirely legal), or something in between that needs to be decided by Hague.
P.S. it’s great that you dedicate two of your paragraphs to making fun of a dead man. Not that it wasn’t absolutely wonderful when you called him geriatric when he was still alive.
A diff. bet. a blockade & a siege?? Really. It’s gobbledy-gook as far as I’m concerned. There is no diff. except in the mind of a war criminal (& his enablers on this commission) excusing his crime.
It is NOT a comprehensive analysis. It is Israel’s propaganda take designed to shill for Israeli policy regarding the siege & flotilla. That is not an “analysis” in the commonly accepted notion of the term.
First, Shabtai Rosenne & Bibi turned him into the butt of jokes INSIDE Israel. Don’t blame me for what Israeli media were themselves saying about his apptmt. No 90 year old man should be put in this position. I didn’t put him there. You should take it up w. the man who did.
Let’s get some facts straight here:
1. Forcibly boarding a foreign ship in international waters is an act of piracy. It is illegal under international law.
2. Blocking the international emergency frequency for hours in a thirty kilometer radius (at least) is criminal under international law. I have a friend who is an amateur radio enthusiast who told me about it and who noticed that the frequency was blocked almost 40 kilometers from the flotilla – In Tel-Aviv.
3. It isn’t exactly as if the committee members listened without prejudice. Committee member Merhav is on record stating that there is no hunger in Gaza when listening to (if I recall) Betselem testimony. It’s a bit like a judge stating at the beginning of a trial that the defendant is guilty, and then goes ahead with proceedings anyway claiming that he isn’t biased.
4. Prejudice 2: The commandos testified (and the committe agreed with them) that members of the flotilla would have killed them if they had a chance. However, it is agreed that they did have a chance and one or two commandos were taken below and given medical treatment, this is backed up by pictures and video evidence. The committe prefered to to ignore this.
5. The comittee claimed that the activists on the flotilla used firearms, despite no evidence whatsoever of firearms in the hours of video footage that Israel confiscated and is still witholding, nor was any one of the commandos hit by any bullets.
I could really go on and on but I think that I made my point as to why I am far from convinced. Question is then, how come you are “fairly convinced”?
So I read a few dozen pages of a detailed report, complete with legal background, and you come here and say contradictory stuff w/o providing any background, and I’m supposed to be convinced? Boarding a ship in international waters is only an act of piracy if it is carried out by private organizations/individuals. You should really read the report, instead of repeating stuff I’ve heard over 9,000 times before.
The aid given to the soldiers by several of the members of the flotilla is indeed mentioned in the report. Again, have you read any parts of it? Here’s some testimony by “Soldier #1” (p. 158-159):
RE: firearms: testimony by “Soldier #2”:
“It should be noted that soldier no. 2 was indeed injured by a bullet wound in the abdomen, he underwent two surgeries, and he required physiotherapeutic rehabilitation.” (p. 155)
And I too could go on and on, quoting UNCLOS (United
Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) as I go, but I see no point.
Let’s see, soldier #1 was taken below, a doctor saw to him despite also having to tend to seriously wounded and dying people, and he was then guarded (but not harmed) and given water. Hey, hold on, the commission ruled that the activists on the Marmara would have killed all soldiers if given the chance. Care to explain such a discrepancy?
Soldier #2 on the other hand was wounded by a bullet to the abdomen. The funny thing about having a bullet wound is that it allows you in most cases to identify the firearm in question. Given that the IDF’s illustrious record when using exessive force is that we tend to shoot our own (See cast lead) more often than the enemy. Couple that with the firearm not being identified and no evidence whatsoever produced of weapons aboard apart from those used by the commandos. It doesn’t really say anything abouth the LEGAL aspects of boarding the ship, but it says a whole lot about the type of “investigation” that was conducted by the commission.
I’ll give you one thing – You are right that boarding a ship in international waters is only an act of piracy if it is carried out by private organizations/individuals. When it’s carried out by a country it’s considered an act of war.
Read pages 179-186 (in Hebrew)
Wasted some time and read it. Again, I fail to see your point. When I wrote “It” I refered to the simple mention of a soldier being shot as absolute proof of the existence of firearms on the Marmara. A more objective commission (i.e. equally distrustful of both sides) would have at least asked to see some information pertaining to balistics.
Which brings me to the other point – The legalistic mumbo-jumbo concerning the “Legality” of attacking the ship. Read the passage that you sent me a couple of times and tell me that it doesn’t read as if the commission has already decided that the action was “legal” and is now combing every international treaty or law to somehow patch pieces of them (actually, more like highly subjective interpretations of them) together into something coherent. I must admit that I had more respect for the commission BEFORE reading that passage. I assumed that they at least attempted to seem judicial and unbiased. My bad.
..And? That is how law is done. Nothing you say indicates that the boarding of the Mavi Marmara and the action taken on board the ship is illegal. I await the UN commission to finish its job – should be very interesting.
Ariel, Boarding a ship in international water is an occurrence that happens almost daily, and there are laws that govern such activity, israel was acting with accordance to the same laws that grant the US 6 fleet to conduct searches on foreign vassals in international water.
U.S. destroyer stops, searches merchant ship off Sicily but finds nothing suspicious
Dateline: ROME A U.S. Navy destroyer stopped a merchant ship called the Rasha J in international waters off Sicily and searched the vessel, but found nothing suspicious, the Italy-based U.S. 6th Fleet said Wednesday.
“Rasha J displayed suspicious behavior and was under surveillance for several weeks,” the fleet said.
It said the master of the Tonga-flagged vessel gave his permission for the search, which took place on Tuesday about 20 nautical miles south of Sicily.
A boarding team from the U.S. destroyer, the USS Hayler, inspected the cargo and cargo manifest and verified the Rasha J’s registration.
Turkish-Israeli-relations, their character and changes over the time would deserve more space on TIKUN OLAM because this will be of major importance for both countries in the near future, I suppose?
James Traubs “in-depth-profile” of the Turkish foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, is excellent! A first step of a necessary analyse of the relations and interactions of two of the three major regional players (Israel, Turkey, Iran).
The Wiki leaks cables reveled that Turkey supported Al-Qaeda work in Iraq, assisting the killings of US Soldiers.( http://movies.walla.co.il/?w=/2/1759848)
I guess the American critique of the Turkish behavior after the Mavi Marmara Incident Had to do with the overall change in Turkish policy, as a member of NATO, who actively acted against another member of the alliance.
As for your claims of massacre on the Mavi Marmara, it seems that you didn’t bother read the Marmara Captain’s testimonial in which he stated that he collected cold weapons from the IHH group who were acting like a Para-Military group, were trained, organized, planed the violent resistance a head of time and prevented free passage on the ship from passengers they didn’t know, which kind of undermines the notion of innocent human activists.
As we’re a bunch of people here who don’t read Hebrew, and as I personnally don’t trust neither you nor ‘walla’, could you please give us the ORIGINAL wikileak-cable in English. Thank you.
here is an english article on the above
i have no idea how to look at any of the original cables
This is a release by Reuters reporting the London-based al-Hayât on releases TO COME:
“The next release is expected to include . . . ”
That’s really a serious source.
So until proven by the original cable or something more serious, I don’t believe your “Turkey helped al-Qaida in Iraq”
PS. Al-Hayât is a Saudi-owned newspaper, and the editorial line is strongly pro-American and follow more or less the official Saudi political line.
the correct walla link:
To “create” its new role in the Near East, Turkey has to position itself up to a certain degree against Israel and the USA just to be noticed by the Arabs and to be taken seriously as intermediator by the Iranians. But there still should be important common interests between the two countries.
But he fact, that Turkey is “playing a role” in public gives Israel the advantage to corner the Turks whenever it wants and needs.
Really Almabu? Do you understand that Israel has 5.5 million Jews and a couple of million less co-operative Arabs as its population. Turkey has a population of 78 million, active personnel in the military is 612,000 and potential reserves are 15 million. Turkey like Iran are natural local powers with natural resources and huge economical potential. Israel has only achieved that position with the support of USA and it is rather certain that Israel can’t hold that regional dominance much longer. Israel has become a burden to the west and the support for Israel begins to be politically to expensive even for old supporters.
Turkey is a member of NATO, Israel is not and will not be such in future. Israel’s fast jump to bed with Greece after the collapse of relations with Turkey showed Turkey the true depth of the “friendship”. It is certain that Turkey will not any more give the local dominance back to Israel after publicly challenging Israel. Turkey is far more bigger and more important for the west than Israel and if the west is forced to choose Israel will hardly will be the winner.
In future years Turkey has in earnest begin to neutralize the Israeli nuclear threat. Either via USA using NATO or with own nuclear deterrence. The one in the corner is Israel not Turkey. If Turkey “jumps” in the Chinese or Russian camp that is a severe loss for the west. Israel is not the wanted partner in this geopolitical drama.
“Israel has become a burden to the west”….really?
Now really think about what you have just said and see if you can reply to me without using any of that burdensome Israeli technology.
Israelis somehow imagine that they invented all modern technology. Delusional…
Jews, but not necessarily Israelis, are of course at the top of many scientific researches, developments and fields all over the world, this should frankly be acknowlegded! Anyone else is free to copy this attitude;-))
If a Israeli, or Indian or Chinese scientist discovers something in an American or European research facility that does not make the invention Israeli, Indian or Chinese. So your remark concerning Jewish scientists has little to do with Duhay’s claims.
I am glad that you at least attribute Jewish contributions to science correctly to attitude and not a ‘Jewish gene’ like Thilo Sarrazin. The fact that there was no Jewish agricultural class in Europe and the US is no doubt a main factor. (An urban background contributes greatly to people going to university and into science.)
I’ve known some mighty fine Jewish chicken farmers in my day. But you’re right, they are few & far between.
“If a Israeli, or Indian or Chinese scientist discovers something in an American or European research facility that does not make the invention Israeli, Indian or Chinese. So your remark concerning Jewish scientists has little to do with Duhay’s claims.” OKAY!
“I am glad that you at least attribute Jewish contributions to science correctly to attitude and not a ‘Jewish gene’ like Thilo Sarrazin.” PLEASE, DO NOT COMPARE ME WITH HIM!
The fact that there was no Jewish agricultural class in Europe and the US is no doubt a main factor. (An urban background contributes greatly to people going to university and into science.) WRONG!
In medieval Europe, Jews were excluded of many if not most professions, not only from agriculture!
So they had to use their brain and develop trade, travel and money businesses.
But no rule without exception: In my home region, where the Rhine forms the German-Suisse-border, there had been existing some rural villages with jewish majority and mayors. Very probably there were jewish farmers also;-))
You don’t think that an urban background contributes to people going to university and into science?
Who do you think will be more likely to go to college: A Chinese boy growing up as a farmer’s son in a village, or one that grows up in a city (even if his parents are only factory workers)?
There were many rural villages in Europe with a majority of Jews, especially in Poland, but that does not mean that these Jews were farmers. In Poland and the Ukraine for instance, the Poles and Ukrainians were generally the farmers in these villages, and the Jews were blacksmiths, tailors, tanners, bakers etc. The medieval ban against Jews owning land had divided the occupations in this way. It could very well be the same in your region.
“…You don’t think that an urban background contributes to people going to university and into science?”
Of course, I do!
“…Who do you think will be more likely to go to college: A Chinese boy growing up as a farmer’s son in a village, or one that grows up in a city (even if his parents are only factory workers)?”
The chinese city-kid?
“…There were many rural villages in Europe with a majority of Jews, especially in Poland, but that does not mean that these Jews were farmers. In Poland and the Ukraine for instance, the Poles and Ukrainians were generally the farmers in these villages, and the Jews were blacksmiths, tailors, tanners, bakers etc. The medieval ban against Jews owning land had divided the occupations in this way. It could very well be the same in your region.”
It could? Yes maybe, but it hadn’t!
A medieval town in central europa had a system called “Zunft” (sing.) or “Zünfte” (plural) which strictly regulated the learning an practizing of each existing profession. Jews were not allowed to work in all the professions you mentioned from Poland!
There were no schools at all in the cities to send “your boy” from the example in, they simply doesn’t exist at this time! There was not even a protected “childhood”. Children were considered little adults and they had to work hard, instead of going to school.
The only way to learn reading and writing was to join a catholic cloister, became a monk or a nun and get some education there, but very probably without maths!
I am sorry: I was talking about the 19th and 20st century, as this is the time when university education really started to take off. I assume that in other European countries the situation was the same as in Germany in the Middle Ages: Jews and Mennonites (in the Netherlands at least) were not allowed in the guilds (Zünfte).
But in the period I was talking off the guild system had been abolished in Germany too, together with the restrictions on trades that Jews could do. I am sure there were loads of Jewish bakers, watchmakers, tanners, smiths and so on, busy at work in Germany then (also in the villages that you mentioned)!
And excuse me for comparing you to Thilo Sarrazin, Almabu. That was really out of line.
One Israeli guy, extremely anti-occupation by the way, some time ago bragged how Israel registers 2nd most patents in USA. When I showed that it is not true, Israel is on the place number 12
Situation with Euro patents
Embarrassed from the revelation the Israeli tried to explain that did mean per capita. That is also proven to be wrong. For example the Nordic countries like mine, Finland, register more patents per capita than the master of self praise, Israel.
Sure Israel is a developed hightech country, when we compare it to Middle Eastern or African countries, but compared to the West European countries it is nothing specia. Actually it is in bottom of that list. There is basically nothing in Israel that could not be produced or is already produced elsewhere.
If we for example compare Finland and Israel, both small countries (population 5 – 7.5 million), Finland wins in most categories, economy (per capita), patents, R & D investments, education etc. The categories where Israel wins are the amount of religious extremists, slaves (people under occupation and second class citizens with a wrong religion), war planes and weapons of mass destruction. And naturally Israel wins in the propaganda sector (= self praise).
The Finnish education system is the envy of Europe. That must be a major factor in Finland’s succes.
My goal is not to be an Israel booster, but I think this is too harsh. Israel has made many positive contributions in many areas. But you are correct in pointing out the horrible ‘contributions’ it has made as well. I’d agree w. you that Israel’s “contributions” to weapons development could easily have been produced elsewhere (& indeed I wish they would have).
I believe the statistic is that Israel, per capita, has the 2nd most patents applied for behind the US. Not the 2nd most total. In other words….if all those countries 1-11 had 6 million or so people, then where would they shake out?
I was curious, so for what it is worth: Based on the numbers of 2009 (the latest on European and Israeli patents in SimonHurtta’s list) there would be (averagely, as I do not know the exact number of inhabitants in 2009) 1 patent per 2374 Dutch inhabitants, one per 3455 Finnish inhabitants, 1 per 5474 Israeli inhabitants, 1 per 6134 Belgian inhabitants and the rest I did not bother to look at.
Israel has up to 400 nuclear weapons. Turkey has a formidable army but no such weapons. How pray will Turkey neutralize Israel’s nuclear threat? I’m all in favor of it if it could happen. But I think you’re whistling in the wind on this one. Israel still has much support in the west, specifically in the U.S. Much will have to change before what you dream about can happen.
I favor Israel playing a role in the Middle East proportional to its size, GDP, etc. But not the hegemonic role it currently plays.
“…How pray will Turkey neutralize Israel’s nuclear threat? I’m all in favor of it if it could happen…”
There is now way in the foreseenable future that Turkey could neutralize the nukes of Israel!
But what Turkey is looking for in my opinion is not military leadership but a referee-role in the short place and a kind of opinion-leadership and agenda-setting in the medium term.
They started thinking in osmanic dimensions a couple of years ago and it took time for the west to realize this change.
(The Ottoman Empir was a great one and it ended only 88 years ago with the Treaty of Lausanne and the founding of the modern turkish state by Atatürk! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire)
In Ottoman times the osmanic Sultan was also the caliph, the religious leader of most, if not all of the muslims.
If the turks succeed with their dreams, this could probably have a positive effect for Islam with shifting away from the radical Wahabism of the Saudis to the Sunni Islam of the turks?
Hegemonic role ?
We’re but a spec on the map there.
The faster people will realize this fact, the better it will be for all.
There was a revolution in Tunisia, Lebanon is in turmoil, Iraq is ruined and in political and social hell, in the Emirates (Dubai, Bahrain, katar,…) so many interesting things happen, Iran is in every news report worldwide, Egypt will have a major change in power soon.
So much is happening in the middleeast that has nothing to do with Israel.
A spec with 400 nuclear weapons…
Unfortunately, far too much happens in the Middle East that has everything to do with Israel. I would love to see Israel turn into a small country with a small military footprint and a small weapons arsenal, but a large economic, educational, & cultural footprint in the region.
Um, it could be because Israel every year or so needs a fresh war to fuel its national cohesion and that those Israel attacks are friends of Turkey’s. It could be that an Israeli attack on Iran if it happens won’t sit well with Turkey. IT’s really up to Israel whether there will be a confrontation with Turkey. I get a feeling Israel is going to go one step too far one of these days and the Turkish tiger (or whatever their national animal is) is going to rear up and bite Israel where it hurts.
I’ve been following various programmes today discussing the beginning revolts in Egypt, and one of the main issues that all the specialists discuss: what a new Tunisian-like revolution in Egypt would do to Israel, and how the US is surely going to prevent the revolutionary spreading.
Yesterday, I heard for the first time on the national television, a leading journalist saying: “the non-solution of the Palestinian tragedy is a CANCER for the whole region.”
It’s got everything to do with Israel: don’t tell us that the US protecting the Arab dictators hasn’t anything to do with Israel. And you think the invasion of Irak has NOTHING to do with Israel ?
There’s an interesting interview with Silvan Shalom on the Israeli radio, printed in al-Ahram, saying that democratization of the Arab world is very bad to Israel.
I agree with you in some aspects: Iran and Turkey are geographically, strategically and in resources and number of populations “natural” regional powers!
Israel is a regional power by political and financial and military assistance of the west, mainly the US and EU. In seeing itself always surrounded by arab enemies, Israel never came to the point to interchange with his neigbours without arms and wars, but with trade and culture.
In a possible decline of the superpower US and/or his ally Europe as well, Israel will face indeed difficult times in the Near East. Nukes are not the answer there in this tiny region, as long as Israel is not planning to play the Samson-game?
At this point, I disagree with you:
But there is also no way at all, that in a (unlikely) military confrontation between Turky and Israel the US and Europe stand aside without siding with Israel, you can bet!
I don’t know wether you are turkish, or have turkish roots, or not but allow me a personal advise: While dreaming politics, don’t fly away, keep your feet firmly on the ground;-)
Why should be any military confrontation between Israel and Turkey ?
Where do you see a conflict between those two countries ?
There is no land dispute, there is no resource dispute ?
Right now there are growing differences in politics, Turkey decided that Iran and Siria relationships are more important than with Israel and it is changing political course. That has nothing to do with military confrontation.
To those who don’t speak hebrew and would like to read the committee report in english