Israeli Settler-Rabbi to Infertile Jewish Couples: ‘Goyish Sperm Leads to Criminality, Barbarism’
I swear these rabbis are such sitting ducks sometimes I feel sorry for ’em that I have write posts like this. But given the nuttiness they espouse, what choice does one have?
One of Israeli Orthodoxy’s leading rabbinic lights, Rabbi Dov Lior, chief rabbi of that idyllic Jewish town of Hebron, told a conference at an Israeli fertility conference that Jewish couples must not use the sperm of non-Jewish men for artificial insemination because the traits of the goy will pass on to the child:
According to Lior, a baby born through such an insemination will have the “negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews.”
“Sefer HaChinuch (The Book of Education) states that the character traits of the father pass on to the son,” he said in the lecture. “If the father in not Jewish, what character traits could he have? Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel.“Lior added identified Jews as merciful, shy and charitable – qualities that he claimed could be inherited. “A person born to Jewish parents, even if they weren’t raised on the Torah – there are things that are passed on (to him) in the blood, it’s genetic,” he explained. “If the father is a gentile, then the child is deprived of these things.
“I even read in books that sometimes the crime, the difficult traits, the bitterness – a child that comes from these traits, it’s no surprise that he won’t have the qualities that characterize the people of Israel,” he added.
A few years ago when I wrote about the Terry Schiavo mess one of the major points I tried to make was that religion and science and politics and science can be a toxic mixture. It seems that Rabbi Lior has taken my advice to heart. He’s devoted himself totally to religion and divorced himself totally from science. Which would be OK had he not decided that he somehow became a scientific expert by dint of his alleged mastery of Jewish law. You see, that’s where people get in trouble. Like when Tom DeLay decided he would legislate Terry Schiavo’s medical care regimen.
Here the good rabbi retreats to 16th century genetic theory by positing that traits of temperament that are allegedly Jewish can be inherited. I think this notion was discredited somewhere around the time of Lamarque. But don’t tell Lior and his followers. It might disturb their ignorance.
Lior, not to be outdone by Dr. Mengele, once said that it was permissible to conduct medical experiments on captured Arab terrorists. You see what happens when morons arrogate to themselves a medical degree? He’s one of those who calls Baruch Goldstein a saint and martyr. He also joined the pulsa dinura which gave rabbinic blessing to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Finally, Foreign Policy Magazine in 2008 named Lior one of the “world’s worst religious leaders.” Right up there no doubt with Osama bin Laden (if you consider him a religious leader), Savanorola and Rasputin.
Returning to the subject of fertility, if these idiots would have an ounce of humility and allow scientists to be scientists and not interpose themselves between science and their religious adherents, the world would be a lot better off.
I also enjoyed the notion that goyim are brutes while Jews are kind. I guess he hasn’t visited Gaza lately to see what the ‘merciful, shy and charitable’ IDF (Jewish boys almost all) is doing there. Oh, I forgot, Jews don’t have to be merciful toward Palestinians, only toward their fellow Jews (or more likely toward their fellow Orthodox Jews as the rest of us Jews are mere apostates in their eyes).
Unfortunately, we’re not done with Lior’s ‘wisdom’:
Lior condemned artificial insemination and sperm donation in general, saying that they lead to waste of sperm, unclear genealogy and other Jewish law offenses. He warned against undergoing intrauterine insemination at hospitals, where the workers may mix sperm samples for one reason or another – a major halachic violation.
On the subject of women who freeze their eggs to use at a later date, the rabbi asserted that instead they should concentrate their efforts on getting married younger. “Our public has been influenced by a part of the Western culture in which every woman, instead of becoming a mother, needs to get a Masters Degree,” he lamented. “The role of women – child rearing – is not less important than an academic degree.” Lior noted that there is nothing wrong with attaining a profession, but it should not be a priority.
Moreover, the rabbi spoke against single women getting pregnant. “We can understand the desire of every woman to have a child, but according to our Torah it is impossible to address the demand of a certain woman when it can cause someone else [the child] suffering,” he said.
“If a child is born without a father, he cannot be 100% normal.” He stated that rabbinical literature defines these kids as “criminals and subjects of other negative phenomena.”
There was a time earlier in my life when I believed that rabbis represented, or at least should represent the most enlightened aspects of Judaism. They should be lights unto Jews and non-Jews alike. They should exemplify a life well led according to high ethical norms. But after Rabbi Meir Kahane, it’s now clear that rabbis harbor some of the worst tendencies reflected in all human beings. Many don’t even bother to temper these noxious tendencies. In fact, they may be proud of ’em.
I should add that Lior’s declarations fly in the face of normative Orthodox halacha which says that sperm of non-Jews is preferable to that of an unknown Jewish donor because the latter, if Ashkenazi, might cause genetic defects like Tay Sachs and other possible abnormalities.
91 thoughts on “Israeli Settler-Rabbi to Infertile Jewish Couples: ‘Goyish Sperm Leads to Criminality, Barbarism’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم”
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I AM A JEW – ALWAYS BEEN
I do not know what to make of all these words being uttered by “rabbis(?)”. That’s NOT MY JUDAISM. I feel sick to my stomach to see this endless river of evil being spewed on a daily basis.
What to do, despise them, excoriate them, what exactly.
Teaching them is beyond reach.
These people eat at the public trough therefore the only solution would be to stop feeding them and to remove them. Then again these are like the hydra, too many heads to stomp.
I want my religion back, I want my lord back but my soul does not want to be soiled to be considered jewish.
What to do?
Perhaps somehow the Israeli public & Knesset can be shamed into removing them fr the public payroll.
And remember that they don’t own our religion any more than Osama bin Laden owns Islam or Savonarola owned Christianity.
“they don’t own our religion”
Sad part is that politicians DO LET THEM OWN IT and further embolden them by succumbing to blackmail just to stay in power and that goes ALL THE WAY BACK TO Ben Gurion.
Yes, I think the problem in Israel is that religion has become entwined in the State & part of the gov’t. If you lived here religion is much more separate fr. those areas.
I did – not in the US but in Quebec
Back in the 70’s the Church was all over (still but not as much)
Until more capitalist laws were passed opposed by the Church but it lessened their hold
Here the process is in reverse
If they ever (yeah rite like that’s gonna happen) put the minimum Knesset entry threshold at 5% which is norm then this mess would go away – now it stands at 2% – travesty
next election ALL israeli voters will get a seat in the Knesset
If I could vote in the election I’d vote for you to get your one seat!
I agree with Nessim Dayan’s reply. Politicians in Israel are just as bad as them. Your article on Bibi supporting Palestinian mass expulsions proves that they’re working in tandem ideologically.
This is like a cancer, but it’s not simply a tumor that can be removed and the body begins healing again. It’s like it’s in the blood stream and different cells are affected and are in turn attacking other cells.
I believe that two solutions MUST be implemented to stop this in its tracks. First, the West Bank must be evacuated of ALL the settlers and they should be relocated to different parts of Israel or other parts, perhaps those who left the U.S. to settle there can even return to New Jersey or Florida. If they refuse and if the GOI refuses to remove them, then sanctions must be imposed on Israel until they agree to evacuate these people. Otherwise there will be trouble with a capital T. These settlers are rabidly against surrendering anything to Palestinians and Palestinians have reached the limit of what they can be expected to tolerate further. No one should be expected to endure such an occupation for this long while their hopes and dreams are being diminished before their eyes. I’m amazed at how the Palestinians have managed to restrain themselves in the past few years.
I don’t know what I would do in their place. I’m only glad I live in a country where lunatics like these rabbis don’t often open their mouths for fear of being ridiculed off the stage and ostracized.
One more thing, I must comment on: ““If the father in[is?] not Jewish, what character traits could he have? Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel.“Lior added identified Jews as merciful, shy and charitable – qualities that he claimed could be inherited. “
The hypocrisy and ignorance contained in the above statement is staggering beyond belief.
The problem of racism in Israel is nothing to do with settlers, and removing all settlers to Israel proper will in no way change the racism – it will simply move the location of the racism.
Legitimate to be of the opinion that the WB should be evacuated of settlers, but why connect it to this article?
Dov Lior happens to live in Hevron – but Shmuel Eliyahu lives in Tzfat.
The inhabitants of Itamar may hate Arabs, but that’s no reflection on the inhabitants of Maaleh Adumim or Giloh.
Many times “settlers” are refered to here as if they are some monolithic group, all with extreme political and racist ideology – that’s simply not so! Many (even most if one includes East J.) settlers are quiet normative family types who searched for cheap housing in places where various governments encouraged. Most ‘settlers’ in, say, Giloh, are probably not even aware that 43 years ago it was in Jordanian territory.
When one refers to the extremist settlers one is probably talking about 5000-10000 out of a total of about 150,000.
(numbers are speculation, just to put in proportion)
On the other hand, many of these lunatic rabbis have nothing to do with the settlers or settlements – in their wierd world of values this is a religious problem. Most of the rabbis who signed the letter have no collection with settlements.
that should read “no connection to settlements” – sorry
” …about 150.000 [settlers]. Numbers are a speculation.”
You stopped counting even before the Oslo Accord ?
There are actually more than 500.000 settlers in the OT.
Around 220.000 in East Jerusalem, more than 300.000 in the West Bank and 20.000 in the Golan.
(article from 2008)
As I wrote, the numbers are speculation and I’m not trying to prove how many or how few settlers there are, but rather to show how many extremists there are.
In any case, Israeli numbers differ to Palestinian estimates (Israel’s are statistics based on census, Palestinian’s are guesses)
“Only” 142,000 on WB (not 300,000).
Israel doen’t supply stats for East J separately as it doesn’t recognise the division.
Your numbers are wrong. I’ve read many times the numbers that Deir Yassin provides including from Daniel Levy who’s a pretty precise fellow.
How can you show how many extremists there are among the settlers, if you have no idea of their number ??
IDF report: More than 300.000 settlers in the West Bank:
I know that Israel don’t count East Jerusalem. And as I don’t count Israel, I was referring to numbers recognized by the ENTIRE world (Amalek ?) except Israel.
How can you say there’s no connection? These settlers know what moving to the West Bank implies! It implies they’re stealing land from others, they’re dispossessing Palestinians, they’re thwarting the peace process and they’re availing themselves of land and resources destined for a future Palestinian state and destroying the hopes and dreams of generations of Palestinian children.
That’s the “beauty” of the Israeli system. They move to the W. Bank for the cheap housing. They don’t even think about the moral implications of what they’re doing & nothing & no one reminds them of it (at least not within Israel). They live in a moral bubble.
Did you folks notice Shmuel’s chutzpah ?
“Israeli numbers differ to Palestinians estimates (Israelis are based on CENSUS, Palestinan’s are GUESSES)”
“Only 142.000, not 300.000”
The IDF reporting 300.000 settlers in the West Bank and the ‘Bureau for Statistics’ reporting 142.000 should maybe have a talk. Don’t they ever meet in the Ministry of Hasbara ?
I obviously failed to explain myself, I was in no way trying to show how many or how few settlers there are, but to explain that they are not homogeneous.
I venture to say that “East J settlers” (excepting Sheikh Jarrah, Ir David, Moslem Quarter, etc) do in no way even associate themselves with being settlers, and this is for any number of reasons:
1. They support the 1967 (?) annexation of Jerusalem, and don’t consider EJ to be occupied territory, as opposed to “the rest”.
2. They are less than 50 years old and have no idea where the border used to be before ’67, and are not even aware that their neighbourhood is “occupied territory”
3. They consider the land to have been purchased from a legal owner so do not feel that they have “kicked out” anyone. (Especially neighbourhoods that were build on barren land, and not on worked agricultural land, or inhabitated land – e.g. Giloh, French Hill)
I testify as to myself, as someone with basic knowledge, that I moved to Armon Hanatziv a year ago, and only a few months ago “googlearthed” my address and discovered that the ’67 border crosses through my street (my house is on the “right” side!). I had no idea of this previous to my move, asked various neighbours and NONE had any inkling that the border used to be near their houses.
Similarly Ariel, Maaleh Adumim, Betar Elit, are in no way the “tree burning” types, but rather family people who don’t wake up every morning and think about the I-P conflict.
The “hardcore” settlers live in approx. 20 settlements, mostly small, and give a bad name to the rest who will follow Israeli policies when the time comes to evacuate in a peace agreement. (as they followed these policies and went to where they were encouraged to go.)
BOTTOM LINE: most settlers go through their everyday life, like other Israeli citizens, without a second thought to living in this land or that land, and, until the next election, will probably not even discuss the topic over the dinner table. Contributors to this blog and other similar ones, who do not live in Israel will find it hard to believe that what is here, on the blog, such an alive and argumentative subject is a non-starter for most Israelis.
I could care less what they consider themselves. They’re settlers by every reasonable standard except their own–which is entirely unreasonable.
I realize the subject isn’t discussed much in Israel, which is precisely the problem & the huge disconnect bet. Israel & the rest of the world. And the reason why a peace agreement will eventually have to be imposed on Israel.
I did understand that you were trying to explain the heterogeneity of the settler population. Still, it’s always useful to know how many of these uninvited guests are living on occupied land (according to international law and while waiting for the One State …) – and for the Palestinians, 142.000 or 300.000 is not exacly the same thing.
As for the rest of your comment: that’s why the word ‘bubble’ describes so perfectly well the average Israeli state of mind.
“Many (even most if one includes East J.) settlers are quiet normative family types who searched for cheap housing in places where various governments encouraged. Most ‘settlers’ in, say, Giloh, are probably not even aware that 43 years ago it was in Jordanian territory.”
Are most of those “quiet, normative family-type” colonists in Giloh at all aware that before the Israeli government illegally confiscated it the land they live on was occupied territory belonging to a Palestinian village, and that one of the reasons the Israeli government seized and colonized that land was to prevent the village from expanding onto it? Are they at all aware that the confiscation and colonization of the land they live on is a grievous violation of international law? If they knew, would they give a flying rat’s rear end, or are they too racist to care?
“I’m amazed at how the Palestinians have managed to restrain themselves in the past few years.”
It really is amazing. These people are truly devoid of anger. Of all the people I met, whose lives have been shattered by the occupation, I have never seen a sliver of hate.
I wish more israelies realised this.
There are amazing stories of Palestinian families whose lives were destroyed by Israeli attacks and not only do they not express anger, they try to reach a common ground with Israel. The story of Dr. Abu Al-Ayash (sp?) comes to mind.
The other day I realized I have never actually been to the West Bank in my entire life. However, I doubt I would be welcome with open arms. There are also many enraged Palestinians. Not that I blame them…
My friend, I’m going to see Dr. Abulaish next wk here in Seattle. If you think after the IDF murdered 3 family members he has no anger you’re sorely mistaken. But he’s managed both to temper his anger & channel it in constructive ways which is all to his credit. I think it’s a huge heap of chutzpah for you, an Israeli, to tell Palestinians whose loved ones have been torn to bits by Israeli bullets or rockets, who cradled them dead in their arms, to “not express anger.” Who are you? And what would you do in their place? Do you ever for a minute try to imagine what this suffering is like & how YOU would feel if it was YOU and not them? Try it sometime.
There are many ways for you to travel safely to the W. Bank even w. Israelis. Get in touch w. Mikhael Manekin (profiled in Haaretz a wk or so ago) of Breaking the Silence. I think he even does tours there.
“It really is amazing. These people are truly devoid of anger. Of all the people I met, whose lives have been shattered by the occupation, I have never seen a sliver of hate.”
This reminds me of my first visit to Bethlehem. One morning a child was humiliated by checkpoint soldiers. She was so frightened that she soiled herself, and they were laughing at her. They made her stand there for well over two hours. She was only about six or seven. When her mother was talking to me about it afterwards, I couldn’t think of anything to say other than, “I am so sorry.” This lady replied, “You are feeling sorry for the wrong mother. Feel sorry for the mothers of those children at the checkpoint. Think how it must be for your son or daughter to behave like this.” It took me a while to realise that by ‘children at the checkpoint’ she meant the soldiers. It wasn’t just her lack of hatred that startled me – it was her love.
“The other day I realized I have never actually been to the West Bank in my entire life. However, I doubt I would be welcome with open arms.”
If you’d like to visit Bethlehem I’d be happy to help you. I’m back at the end of January and I’ll be around until August. You won’t know what your reception will be like until you visit – it makes no sense to sit on the other side of the wall and wonder and never find out.
Thanks for offering yr hospitality in this way. It’s a small gesture perhaps in the greater scheme of things, but very important. I hope Shai takes you up on the offer. It might be the first time that readers of this blog have been brought together physically in one place through the blog. And it would be for a good cause too!
…huh? What’s chutzpah is of you to put words in my mouth. I never said that they are not angered, only that some of them refrain from expressing that anger (obviously in negative ways). Did you even read what I wrote? I called Dr. Abulaish amazing. Nothing short of that… and you think I never considered what I would do if I were in his situation? I can only hope I’d have the strength to act as he did and does.
Please send him my forgiveness as an Israeli for the horror he has had to go through.
I am planning to visit with my sister but I’m not sure where Israelis can & can’t go. My sister told that during a previous visit an IDF soldier asked for her religion and when she said Jewish he told her she is forbidden from entering.
I will. Or you can write to him yourself through his publisher. I can get you the e mail address if you’d like. It would be even more powerful coming directly fr. you.
You aren’t usually allowed into the West Bank unless you are going to visit a settlement. It’s possible to enter with a one-off permit, but I don’t know the details about applying for those. I will ask someone who has experience in getting them. Please don’t let the bureaucracy put you off, whatever you do, because this is the whole reason why it exists in the first place – to stop Israelis and Palestinians from getting to know one another.
Breaking the Silence run regular tours to Hebron. I don’t know how they manage to get Israelis in (perhaps they claim that technically it’s a visit to a settlement?) but they succeed somehow. I would recommend them.
I know Breaking the Silence have organized tours, and have considered participating in the past, but I think I’d like something less organized & with a set agenda (even though I may agree with it). I’d like to see things for myself and not have a predetermined route & hear people repeat to my ears what they’ve said before many times before. I want it to be as natural as possible.
I meant without an agenda. Still sad there isn’t the option to edit. 🙁
Shai, how full of crap you are. You have never been to the West Bank in your entire life, yet you claim to know what the people there are like. Are you aware of how many Jews live and have lived and been welcome in Palestinian cities, towns, and villages in the West Bank? Are you aware that there are Israeli Jews who live and have lived in and visit the West Bank and are welcome there?
How do you dare to presume to know about the people of a place you have never set foot in?
Maybe because I hear stories, I read stuff, etc…
And if I’m not mistaken you have commented on Israeli mindset & thoughts before.
And really, are you suggesting that all Palestinian in the West Bank are perfectly okay with Israelis? I don’t have to go there to know that’s a lie.
If you read the monthly opinion surveys of West Bank residents you’d see that their political views have a good deal in common with Israeli opinion. They’re worried about the same issues, they hope for the same things.
I read this survey which indeed shows they aspire to have more in common with Israelis
Yes, alas you’re right. That’s why I included it.
“I’m amazed at how the Palestinians have managed to restrain themselves in the past few years.”
Only in the past few years? How about in the past century or so?
Well said Richard
This sort of thing is the number one cause of anti-Semitism today. Not only does Israel constantly commit crimes, but it doesn’t even go one inch in admitting that it is guilty. This isn’t the Israel my friends tell me about. Do they know THEIR Israel? Do they see what happens when they aren’t in Tel Aviv or on guided tours?
No, actually, only one or two of them ever even bothered going back after the Birthright tour. Others avoided it altogether, even with a free trip in hand. They don’t speak about it, but I know them better — they aren’t going because someone along the line discouraged them from doing so. Was it because of the Palestinian occupation? Maybe. Was it because they feared being caught in violence? More likely.
And then some outstanding individuals DID go back, to protest and to see Gaza. They awoke when they heard the narratives on their guided tours, referring to Arabs as subhumans.
Iran committed a crime in 2001ish by not revealing its enrichment processes. Immediately, Iran admitted to this and halted the enrichment under Khatami. Today, its nuclear program is the most inspected ever and continues to receive a clean bill of health. The Iranians have even invited European ambassadors to tour the facilities as of last week.
Who is the Pariah with unrelenting hubris here?
COMPARISONS ARE ODIOUS.
Please spare us the holier than thou attitude.
In Israel we don’t stone women to death (yet)
Your orthodoxy is just as bad as ours and just as evil.
Iran’s atom bomb fetish is well hidden from sight and inspection and it’s more about MONEY (blackmailing the other side of the Persian Gulf) than about Israel
I am looking for the good in my faith not in oneupmanship.
I wouldn’t make the mistake of assuming Persian Advocate either lives in Iran or supports the mullahs. He’s a critic of Israel, but that doesn’t make him a fan of the Ayatollahs either.
Exactly. What made you think the Iranian government enjoys full support across the board when the Supreme Leader has to make calls for unity? We’re 150 million plus strong, woth more connections to our homeland than a free trip, and not homogenous. Why so defensive while distancing yourself from these policies at the same time?
If you read carefully, you’d see I didn’t call you a homogenous culture either.
The atom bomb fetish is not Iran’s. There is to date no evidence amounting even remotely to proof that they are pursuing an atom bomb, and that despite a very rigourous inspection regime. The fetish of the Iranian atom bomb is not Iran’s but Israel’s, and it is nothing more than a transparent excuse to attack Iran.
And kudos to you for looking for the good in your faith. I recommend that you do not limit looking for the good only to your own faith, and in your own interests. A bit of real knowledge and empathy for the “other” might take you a longer way toward a proper observance of your faith than will self-centered focus merely on the good in what is yours.
I am getting more and more convinced that our ‘Persian Advocate’ is an Iranian Hasbarist, and not (only) a lawyer of Persian origin. How does he always find a way to paint a positive picture of Iran, even concerning articles that have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Iran. is a mystery. If that isn’t trolling, then I’m the Queen of Saba.
Maybe because my culture is where my expertise lays. I have lost a little respect for you here. The truth is unfortunately the side Israel’s real and existing hasbara has allowed the Iranian government to position itself on the nuclear issue.
Strange, in Israel the government is criticised for failing totally in its “hasbarah” efforts, and that is why, according to that criticism, the “whole world” is against Israel and is “anti-semitic”, etc. as Israel fails every time to explain its policies and the “facts”.
Yet you, PersianAdvocate, would have us believe that Israel’s hasbarah is so successful that it has convinced the whole Western world and Russia and China that Iran is developing the bomb, which, in your opinion, is a total lie.
How do you explain the total failure of Israeli hasbarah on all points except the Iranian one?
Spin much? I said my fellow Americans, Jewish, who I grew up with and continue to be friends with.
Why should PA have to explain what Israelis think about hasbara or about anything? And why does he even care whether an Israeli thinks hasbara has failed??
@ Persian Advocate
You might have expertise, that’s not the question. This article has absolutely nothing to do with Iran, and still you managed to talk about the Iranian nuclear program in your first comment, and it’s not like you were answering someone else. Out of the blue. If that isn’t trolling.
As far as losing your respect, I take that as one of the hard times that we all have to go through in life . . .
The point was connected to the article to show how Israel’s so-called democratic, “golden child” stature is a sham, when compared to the state their lobby had an explicit role in placing on the Axis of Evil speech in Bush’s 2002 State of the Union.
When Iranian based discussions start talking about the I-P conflict, I am quick to point out that this is an Israeli and Palestinian problem, and a supermajority of Iranians want nothing to do with the conflict and its many pitfalls.
Unfortunately, this is not what the politicians of both countries are doing — although one side is more reactionary while the other is on a 11 year belligerent path.
You have a lot of my respect still, but I would refrain from calling me a Hasbarist — for one thing, you probably already know I hate labels, for another, Iranians don’t have hasbara. I am not a member of the basiji or IRGC, and have never served in either.
Also, the aim was to compare what most think to be the Pariah to the real Pariah. Do you get bothered that the morality police hold equal footing with these crazies in Israel?
Israel “crimes” aside, maybe you can remind us how many people died in Iran-Iraq war ? was it 1,000,000 from each side or 1,000,000 from both ?
What was the average age of the dead from Iran ?
Just talking about the “real pariah”.
Iran didn’t start that war, remember? But you have point with the age i.e, those children given little ‘keys to Paradise’. Horrific.
I deplore the use of children, even in a defensive war directly after a revolution where the invader is Saddam Hussein an armed by the entire world to the teeth. Over a million Iranians suffered from a single event where the US administration (read: Rumsfeld) equipped Saddam with chemical weapons and he gassed and immediately killed over 100,000 people, not to mention the millions of others affected. Iran was desperate, and for you to use that tragic circumstance from over 20 years ago to whitewash 150+ million people shows you are not only outdated but leave much doubt as to your character as a human being.
What are you prattling about? Iran is not responsible for the Iran/Iraq war. That and its consequences lie squarely at the feet of Saddam Hussein.
Who started that war? Or are you forgetting it was Saddam & Iraq? Iran doesn’t start wars.
I don’t feel quite as sanguine as you about Iran’s nuclear program. They didn’t invite ALL the European ambassadors. ONly ones they don’t consider their enemies. THe U.S. too was excluded. If you want to be transparent as you claim, why exclude them?
Many a night I was kept up by the thought that this same exclusive orthodox philosophy is not somehow at the root of the pre WWII Germany antisemitism
The constant harking at ostracizing the rest of the country that you inhabit might at some point flashback.
It’s a nightmare that I cannot shake with the day to day orthodoxy’s attitude in Israel
No, I would never go that far. Don’t blame the victims. Besides, German Jewry was very secular and Orthodox Judaism very weak.
Orthodox Judaism very weak.
Somehow i beg to differ, my wife’s family was from Lodz and most of her family perished there except her parents. And I was told enough anecdotes from way back then that I would not put it past jewish religious orthodoxy to push halacha ritual beyond their acceptability within the regions they lived
Far from blaming the victims only their rabbis leaders whom I presume had similar worldly views as the ones we so dearly suffer daily.
I am saying if that kind of incessant intolerance preaching could have caused the beginning of a snowballing backlash.
Any historian can prove me wrong.
I just can’t shake that ugly notion.
But wait a minute: Lodz was in Poland not in Germany. As Richard said, German Judaism seems to have been very secular, at least from what I read.
Richard, certain countries are determined to use openings like that to spin and lie to their hearts content. Being transparent means agreeing to the most aggressive IAEA inspections regime ever, and the Iranians have done that. I’m not sure if you are connecting the dots. Have you not seen politicians and mass media lie about Ahmadinejad’s statements? This is an effort to mass a war against Iran and loot its oil. I am more concerned about the people than any government worker, lest they be an innocent soul as well. Unfortunately, as I see here, people rely on questionable sources for information rather than connecting their dots and utilizing common sense. I ask again that people don’t rely on twenty second sound bites and think a little more critically and individually.
Why would Iran include the United States given the United States’ consistently bellicose and blatantly biased position? The United States has clearly selected Iran as the next Greatest Threat to World Peace and Security. Realistically, there is nothing Iran could possibly do right now, short of abject capitulation to everything the U.S. demands, that could induce the United States to budge one millimetre.
You have a point. But it does start to look quite selective when Iran offers its favored ones access & nations like Britain none.
Unfortunately, Richard, Britain is co-lead in the oil mongering, if not the captain.
Richard, the current Secretary of State of the United States has, at least on one occasion, publicly suggested that the United States is prepared to “obliterate” Iran, and Britain has tagged along eagerly with both the Bush and Obama administrations in their serious and severely threatening speech and behavior toward Iran just as it did with Iraq, and has in other similar ugly adventures.
Why would any country, Iran included, invite countries that have not only declared Iran their greatest and most dangerous enemy, but have made grievous threats against it, and are known to be conducting and/or supporting clandestine military and “intelligence” operations (i.e. sabotage, assassinations, etc.) against the Iranian government inside and outside Iran? Why would they willingly give such countries any opportunity at all to gain access and information that those countries are virtually guaranteed to turn around and use to stab Iran in the back?
In short, why would any country, Iran included, invite other countries that have openly declared themselves an existential threat, and backed that threat up with actions, both open and clandestine?
I remember, also, that last year when the U.S. hosted an international nuclear conference Iran, a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty, was pointedly excluded, and as I recall Israel, who refuses to sign and is truly a nuclear rogue nation, was welcomed warmly with open arms. Why was that? Why, instead of attempting to draw Iran into the mainstream, has every effort been made to further and further isolate it? And why, given Israel’s nuclear outlaw status, is it allowed to sit at the nuclear adult table in Iran’s seat?
I take yr pt.
Israel was invited but Bibi chickened out & refused to attend because he knew he’d be drubbed by attendees for its refusal to sign the NPT.
Who gave this idiot a title ? Walking freely with Rabin’s blood on his hands this man would be in any normal democracy behind bars but no he is walking free living in K. Arba as if god’s on his side.
Three other rabbis I’m sorry to say who gave him smichah.
Funny how the Rabbi isn’t averse to taking 5 Billion dollars per year in aid from a country composed primarily of criminals and barbarians.
The giver is dirty but the gift is clean?
$3 billion, not $5, unless you’ve found $2 billion going to Israel I wasn’t aware of.
Altogether U.S. military and other aid, loan guarantees, etc. amount to closer to $5 million than $3 million.
Wouldn’t it be nice if that’s all we gave to ’em??
Hmmm. I am a Jewish male convert, and my sperm is not defective in any way, thank you very much, “Rabbi.” My two children by my very Jewish wife (from a very Jewish family that goes back forever) are in a private Orthodox Jewish school and at the top of their classes (high I.Q.’s, smarter than the smart). And my son was voted “most ethical” in his class. I’d like to think that my formerly “goyish” genes had something to do with that. There is no “barbarism” or criminality in MY family and I have researched the genealogy of my people back to 1743. No jail time, no insanity, no “criminality”.
Don’t make me embarrassed to be a Jew. Racist comments do not belong in Judaism.
The ‘Jews’ do not consider you a REAL ‘Jew’. You might as well know that.
Oh and, “Racist comments do not belong in Judaism.”??
Have you ever heard of Talmud?
‘Judaism’ is Talmudism. Talmud is racist.
How can you get around this?
You know about as much about the Talmud as Pam Geller knows the Koran.
Don’t take it personally, really, these rabbis are imbeciles. Besides, you are now Jewish and magically your genes have become Jewish for the good rabbi (at least if you were converted by an Orthodox rabbi). If not, well then we shan’t go there since the rabbi already has.
A convert to Judaism not only receives “Jewish genes” when converting but also the right of return due to a ‘historical link’ to the Land of Israel. I maybe should start considering . . .
Could be an ingenious way to trace your roots in Palestine. You would probably be encouraged to settle in the West Bank, too!
Nah, I’ll convert to seaside-Judaism. Some ‘sectarian’ community’ that claim their origin in Akka, and that allows the eating of seafood, particularly shrimps.
I’d like to point out that Sefer HaChinuch is the standard gift for an Orthodox bar-mitzvah and is considered a basic work for Orthodox education. In addition, I’ll remind you that Jesus, who is one of the biggest “villains” in Judaism had Jewish mother and a gentile father (Toldot Yeshu).
It’s not the Sefer that’s the problem. It’s the distorted interpretation & misuse the rabbi makes of the text, which has nothing to do w. the pt. he’s trying to make.
I’d say that the story that Jesus had a gentile father is as apocryphal as the story that he had a divine father 😉
The gentile father is the standard version, as given by “Toldot Yeshu,” which can be found on the internet. Apparently, we all have a Divine Father, so he wasn’t as unique as people have made him out to be!
What is ‘standard’ about Toldot Yeshu?
Thanks for yr skepticism. I appreciate it.
“Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel.“
Wow! That would be hilarious coming from anyone, but coming from one of the “merciful, shy and charitable”
Hebron – ummmmm – residents, it is show-stopping.
The churches are full of these men who for some reason believe what comes in to their minds as truth its been going on for years and there will always be those who are to mind lazy to look at what is said and who is saying it and why this will never work people love others because of who they are not what they believe they idea that western races are so pure is rubbish we would have to go into the Amazon basin to find pure of some parts of Africa there are people who live totally on the sea but Jews are not pure never have been there is a problem with the rabbis who now pray for war and have lost their way this man is one of them he does more harm to his brotherhood than anything most people know most Jews do not think like Hitler did but this man does time for retirement and stop him listening to those in the Govenment who want to bring the war yet again to the earth my God deal with them
I was born to a Jewish mother and adopted by Lutheran parents. I’d be ashamed to be a Jew. The condescension and arrogance alone is disgusting.
I’ll just be an American mutt and step around the Middle Eastern madness.
Can we please stop calling the area of judea and Samaria the west bank.
You took a wrong turn in the blogosphere. You want Israel Matzav or Isreally Cool. Turn right next time at the Kotel…far right.