41 thoughts on “Frank Luntz’s Hasbara ‘Fictionary’ (Part 3) – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. RE: “the typical hasbara approach”

    99 bottles of hasbara on the wall, 99 bottles of hasbara.
    Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of hasbara on the wall.

    99 bottles of hasbara on the wall, 99 bottles of hasbara.
    Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of hasbara on the wall.

    99 bottles of hasbara on the wall, 99 bottles of hasbara.
    Take one down and pass it around, 99 bottles of hasbara on the wall.

    (AD NAUSEAM)

  2. However dreadful this document might be, I have to confess that I would be grateful if some of its tenets (express sympathy for the Palestinians, don't paint conflict as black and white, don't get bogged down in historic disputes) would be respected by some of our hasbaristas on this and other blogs.

  3. Before stopping I read as far as, “in 1980 it was still illegal for women to work in jobs that required them to work at night… Israel has a proportionally high degree of domestic violence and rape” and I consulted one of the recent United Nations studies of violence and crime which reported that of the top 20 (population) countries participating, plus Israel, the rapes per capita in sorted order are,

    CANADA, 1:923
    USA, 1:2,435
    ISRAEL, 1:9,869
    REP OF KOREA, 1:10,094
    DENMARK, 1:10,397
    RUSSIA, 1:10,561
    FRANCE, 1:10,712
    ENGLAND & WALES, 1:12,337
    ROMANIA, 1:19,271
    COLUMBIA, 1:22,587
    UKRAINE, 1:26,811
    PHILIPPINES, 1:29,900
    SPAIN, 1:31,152
    MOROCCO, 1:35,926
    SUDAN, 1:44,858
    ITALY, 1:70,536
    INDIA, 1:74,121
    JAPAN, 1:77,295
    INDONESIA, 1:128,918
    TURKEY, 1:216,897
    EGYPT, 1:4,210,916

    which indicates Canada has the most rapes per capita and has more than 4000x the rapes per capita as Egypt. I don't mean to say Egypt is dangerous or doesn't have a low rate of rape but it seems implausible that Canada is 4000x more dangerous than Egypt for rape.

    Rape statistics are notoriously difficult to obtain. A more likely explanation for such a wide range that the UN reports is that the incidence of reporting is a larger factor than the incidence of rape. If this is true, the proper conclusion is that Israel is very good at recognizing and reporting rape as a crime which is good. Unless, you really want to believe that Canada is the rape capital of the world.

    Do you have citations to support the assertions quoted above? I highly question the accuracy of at least one of them.

    -Adam Grossman

  4. Israel is very good at recognizing and reporting rape as a crime which is good.

    Israel is not especially known for having the highest quality police force in the world, nor are Israeli women especially encouraged to come forward to report rapes. In fact, I'd say women there face just as many or more strictures as American women given that they live in quite a male-dominated macho society.

    Israel's former president is now on trial for rape in a case that has lasted for years. He has a long-standing reputation of engaging in similar behavior throughout his career. The national prosecutor was only too happy to let him walk on a lesser charge, but the numbskull rejected the plea bargain & decided to go for it. I hope he gets what he deserves. It's tough as a woman in Israel to be taken seriously as a rape victim.

  5. Do you actually have a job, or do you just spend all day shilling for those who celebrated the 9/11 attacks, hand out sweets when Jewish (and Muslim) men, women, and children are killed and maimed by suicide bombs packed with ball bearings to ensure maximum casualties, and educate fill their textbooks with maps of Palestine stretching from the river to the sea?

  6. Yes, any little Israeli girl can dream of growing up to be Prime Minister, as long as she's not an Arab.

  7. Even if that were the case, which it isn't, would that be so horrible? Do you think a Jewish child can be king/dictator/PM of any of the 22 Arab countries? Of Iran? Why is it such a horrible concept for Jews to have one little state where they can govern themselves?

    Why can a future 2-state solution include Israel with a large Arab minority and a Judenrein Palestine?

  8. Did a post on this Fictionary here.

    Richard, Americans value a lot statements and quotes as evidence for a given position. Regarding Barak's “generous offer,” it would be interesting to make a list of examples of Israeli criticism of it. For instance, this Shimon Peres quote would be useful:

    When I say there is a perception on the Israeli left that Mr Barak was incompetent, he [i.e., Peres] says: “Yes. That is the case. He was warned, including by myself, that asking the Palestinians to declare [at Camp David as part of the “final status” agreements] that they have no further ambitions, saying they had to renounce the right of return and concerns about the rest of Jerusalem, which are insoluble at this period of time, would go wrong.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profil

  9. “Why can a future 2-state solution include Israel with a large Arab minority and a Judenrein Palestine?”

    Yeah, why while we're at it, why can't Israel allow the right of return for Palestinians? That would be fair. In all the years that Israeli Jews were stealing land in the West Bank, Palestinians weren't allowed to move back to Israel and buy land legally.

    Now if we want to go even further, why not allow hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to move into Israel proper and take whatever land they want and build roads connecting their settlements which only they are allowed to use and after a few decades of this, when a peace settlement is reached, we can go for one man one vote?

  10. I like how you picked on the last section of my comment while ignoring the first part. You certainly wouldn't hold most of those Arab and Muslim nations to one man/one vote, would you now?

  11. I started to reply to the first part as well, but cut it, figuring it was too stupid to deserve a response. I agree that the Arab dictatorships are awful–I'd like to say I'm a little surprised to see you equate Israel (a supposed democracy) with a bunch of thuggish regimes, but I'm not. I've noticed this about some Israel defenders–their defenses of Israel often sound exactly like criticisms but they don't seem to realize it.

  12. Do you think Israelis enjoy mandatory military service? Do you think they wouldn't prefer living in a barrier-free society where the threat of suicide bombings and missile attacks didn't exist?

    Of couse Israel has its problems. Every society does. But the fact remains that Israelis–with the exception of an ultranationalist minority that, contrary to what you may believe, lacks strong government support and would not be able to undermine negotiations–would gladly make heavy concessions (heavier than have been made already) for true peace. Every time Israel tries to open more Gaza crossings, terrorists attack soldiers manning those same crossings. Right now, concessions only bring terror. Sadly, the Palestinians, along with their Arab brethren, have so far been unable–or unwilling–to foster a society that would embrace compromise, good-faith negotiations, and a final-status agreement that would satisfy enough demands all sides are making. Let us all pray that day comes soon.

    1. the exception of an ultranationalist minority that, contrary to what you may believe, lacks strong government support and would not be able to undermine negotiations

      As in Shas? You’ve probably read Ariel “Jim Crow” Atias’ execrable statements lately.
      http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1097411.html
      If a cabinet minister anywhere in the west directed such language at the Jewish minority in his/her country, the Jews (and not only them) would rightly be up in arms, and the minister an ex-minister quicker than you could say “anti-Semitism”.

      Shas has in the past already threatened to leave a ruling coalition if negotiations would touch Jerusalem (or what passes for J’lem these days, soon to border the Dead Sea).

      It doesn’t matter if the PM himself actively embraces Shas’ or Yisrael Beitenu’s agendas – ultranationalists if there ever were some – as long as they’re welcome to participate in the gov’t and the PM makes the conscious decision to depend on their votes they DO have both gov’t support and the ability to undermine negotiations.

      1. Shas and Yisrael Beiteinu may be part of the coalition, but the fact remains that Israel has pulled back from territory over 3 times its current size (not much more left soon!–but that’s what you want, isn’t it?) without civil war. Israel left Sinai and Gaza under LIKUD governments. History shows that if the right deal comes along, the PM in charge (Netanyahu may be a “hawk,” but he’s also a pragmatist and no idiot and he craves a legacy) will make it happen and the public–or enough of it–will get behind him/her.

        1. Begin had to be dragged screaming and kicking into the Sinai agreement. After Sharon withdrew from Gaza the Likud rebelled against his leadership & essentially planned to throw him out. So much for Likud doing the right thing. The idea that Bibi will negotiate a deal is laughable.

          1. “So much for Likud doing the right thing.”

            I never said anything about Likud “doing the right thing.” You are twisting my words. Then again, that’s all you do here, isn’t it? Take any “news” story that portrays Israel in a bad light and expand upon it in a black-and-white fashion? The sick thing is that you want peace even less than someone like Bibi. He at least wants to negotiate. You just say Israel’s wrong about everything and seek a 23rd Arab state in the place of the only Jewish one.

          2. He at least wants to negotiate.

            Bibi wants to negotiate??? What planet are you on? He says he wants to negotiate for the benefit of gullible fools & those in the U.S. gov’t he’s trying to hoodwink. He wants to seriously negotiate a resolution of the conflict about as much as I want a root canal surgery.

      2. Yisrael Beiteinu may be “ultranationalist” on your terms, but Lieberman has gone on record supporting 2 states (well before Netanyahu accepted the idea)

        1. What kind of 2 states does he support? An Israel and a bantustan. With a Palestinian state like that they’d be little better off than they are now. The claim that Lieberman supports two-states is close to fiction.

        2. Hmmmm Lieberman lives in a settlement and supports as you say a two state solution. So it can mean that Lieberman will soon be a Palestinian politician leading the Palestine Beiteinu party. Once a populist opportunist, always a populist opportunist. 🙂

  13. The majority of Israelis supported the Gaza War and apparently saw no problem with the blockade on Gaza and the settlements keep growing, so what you see as concessions may not look like much from the Palestinian side of the fence. As for what Israelis prefer, most people tend towards narcissism, I suspect, and see themselves as perfectly reasonable, wanting peace, but they want peace on their own terms. And they see the crimes committed against their side while somehow not noticing the crimes their side commits against the others. Israelis are not unusual in this regard, but it's tiring to read arguments like yours put forward as though it was the simple truth that Israelis want peace, but Palestinians don't.

  14. “Israelis are not unusual in this regard, but it's tiring to read arguments like yours put forward as though it was the simple truth that Israelis want peace, but Palestinians don't.”

    Show me that the Palestinians do.

  15. OK. Besides the anecdotal stories do you have any citations to support the assertions quoted above?

  16. You mean other than living in Israel two years, reading the Israeli newspapers online every day, following carefully the work of Israeli femininst groups and anti-domestic violence groups (including New Israel Fund), and speaking regularly with Israeli women about conditions in Israel???

    C'mon. If you want links to those sites so you can study the issue let me know. But it isn't my job to prove that Israel isn't the most hospitable place for women. That's well known to many, if not most people.

  17. This is not a right-left debating society in which you get to claim Palestinians are bad guys & Israelis good guys. If that's what you're after go somewhere else. No one here has to prove Palestinians want peace nor should they. The fact is self-evident to anyone who shows good faith & is not a propagandist.

    If you keep trying to score debating pts. you may lose yr comment privileges here. And READ THE COMMENT RULES.

  18. Do you have any citations to support the statement, “Israel has a proportionally high degree of… rape”? This has very specific meaning and is stated as fact. Is it fact or speculation?

  19. Adam, you yrself presented a UN report which indicated Israel had the 3rd highest level of reported rapes in the world. You provided the evidence yrself. So unless you disbelieve evidence you presented, then yes it is documented. Independently, I have read of this as being fact as well or I wouldn't have stated it. I'd suggest you do a Google search using appropriate key words & you should find even more documentation.

    UPDATE: I couldn’t help myself. According to the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel (ARCCI), one in three Israeli women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. That’s a pretty high percentage. I remember when I heard the 1 in 5 statistic about American women & I thought THAT was high.

    1. I cited UN statistics which I called “implausible” and said they appear to be very inaccurate.

      You have cited a speculation (about the future) that one in three Israeli women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime, which is sad. This does not say anything about whether Israel has a “proportionally high degree of… rape” as you stated. (Note: 1 in 3 has a large error range and “in her life” is typically 2x “has already experienced”.)

      Do you have any citations to support the statement, “Israel has a proportionally high degree of… rape”? This has very specific meaning and is stated as fact.

      1. Adam you’re just trying to be argumentative. 1 in 3 women raped in their lifetime is a ‘proportionally high degree of rape.’ I have personal indirect experience of this phenomenon & I resent your exploiting such a serious social issue to score a debating pt. You can either accept or reject the evidence I’ve brought. If you really care & you aren’t just interested in having a good argument, you can do research yrself.

        You’re just going to have to find someone else w. whom to have a mahloket. Good luck.

        1. Do you have any citations to support the statement, “Israel has a proportionally high degree of… rape”? This has very specific meaning and is stated as fact.

          If I understand, your answer is that the claim is supported by “personal indirect experience,” the fact that “Israel’s former president is now on trial for rape,” and your belief that “Israel isn’t the most hospitable place for women which is “well known to many, if not most people.”

          In summary, this answer is “no”.

          I believe the subject is very serious social issue and that speculative proclamations without citation should not be made lightly.

          I do not keep score but if you do, I hope it is not 1 in 3.

          1. Now you’ve annoyed me, Adam. My last comment made clear that I was done with this subject. Now let me make it clear: I AM DONE WITH THIS SUBJECT. If you want to play games find somewhere else to do it.

          2. [comment deleted because commenter needs to have the last word and is a plain pain in the ass and believes in ignoring the owner’s request to stop commenting in a thread]

          3. [comment deleted for violation of comment rules–commenters privileges suspended]

          4. [comment deleted due to ongoing violations of comment rules & incredible immaturity]

  20. I love your Fictionary series Richard (and huge credit goes to John Dickerson for the name)! It’s guys like you that are helping to break the hasbara machine with your wit and dedication to the truth against all of their money and manpower. You are the David to their Goliath too.

    I am actually surprised to hear that it was the real Frank Luntz who came to argue and then left. LMAO.

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