16 thoughts on “Ben Zion Netanyahu on Bibi’s Political Duplicity – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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    1. a veteran member of Israel’s peace camp

      Lordy, where did you fabricate that characterization from? Shlomo Avineri is an thoroughly establishment political science academic hack with absolutely no “peace camp” credentials whatsoever. In terms of a comparison to U.S. academic circles, I liken him to Bernard Lewis (though they are in different academic specialties). Avineri no more a member of the peace camp than Ehud Barak, who has the blood of 1,400 Gazans on his hands.

      1. Exactly, Richard!
        Shlomo Avinery, whose big problem with the operation Cast Lead was a badly chose name (he wasted an article in Haaretz and some 1.5 minute of my life writing about the need to “fire the IDF computer” that came up with the name). Was a nitwit…
        Still, hard to be surprised by Bar Kochba’s characterization of him as a “a veteran member of Israel’s peace camp”, since Bar Kochba considers Sharon’s and Olmert’s governments left wing too…

  1. My posting these items was not to engage in a discussion of whether Avineri is a bona fide member of the “peace camp” but rather to see what you think of these things, since you are an advocate of Israel talking to (or recognizing) HAMAS. I am particularly interested in your reaction to Article 22 of the HAMAS charter.

    1. I don’t “do” the Hamas charter for reasons I’ve explained here already. If you want to get into an argument about it you’ll have to find someone else to provoke.

      I suggest you try to grapple with statements made currently by current senior Hamas representatives instead of dredging up meaningless 30 yr old moldy documents no current Hamas member has ever read let alone adheres to.

  2. The US Constitution is over 200 years old and no one says it is “moldy” and that “no one ever reads it”. How do you know that HAMAS doesn’t view their charter (which is about 20 years old as I understand it) the same way? They revere the Quran which is a lot older than that.

    Here is an interiew with Danny Zamir regarding the allegations of war crimes made at his academy during the Gaza War:


    1. As Rashid Khalidi told a Brit Tzedek conference call last week. Hamas was founded in 1987. In 1988, they assigned some schlemiel no one ever heard of to write a Hamas charter. He wrote it. Someone published it somewhere & MEMRI picked it up and the rest is history. The Charter is NOT the U.S. constitution, nor even the Israeli Declaration of Independence. No convocation of Hamas ever voted on this Charter or approved it. No one in Hamas ever looks to the Charter to determine what course of action anyone should take. It doesn’t govern anything & no Hamas members even know what it says. You know better what it says than they do. It is 21 yrs. old. Does the fact that it’s 21 yrs old make it more relevant than if it were 30 yrs old as I claimed?

      BTW, can we look up the founding documents of the Zionist Revisionists and Mapai and see what they have to say about various issues and see whether there aren’t a few items that would be embarrassing to Likudniks or Labor party members today?

      1. So for Rashid Khalidi is the Hamas Charter just the work of a schlemiel and nothing more. For me and a lot of my friends is
        the Oslo agreement nothing more than the work of an Israeli
        schlemiel and a Arab thief and warlord who created from a mix
        of Arabs a “Palestinian” people, eager to be “liberated” from
        Israeli “occupation”. I don’t believe that Prof.Khalidi is really
        speaking for Hamas as I don’t pretend my views as representative for Jews and Israelis anywhere.

        1. The Hamas Charter was written by some anonymous individual who belonged to a new Islamist movement no one, even Palestinians had ever heard of at the time. The Oslo agreement was negotiated between two governments & by many individuals. The rest of us see the diff. but I’m not surprised that you don’t.

          I don’t believe that Prof.Khalidi is really speaking for Hamas

          Prof. Khalidi, unlike you, is a historian of the Middle East and Palestinian nationalism. He doesn’t “speak for” Hamas. He actually knows facts about things like Hamas and its charter. As opposed to you who knows little more than a few rightist slogans that pass for facts in yr universe.

          I don’t pretend my views as representative for Jews and Israelis anywhere.

          You said it. But the truth is that yr views are unfortunately representative of a certain small subset of Jewish rightist haters.

      2. I would imagine that Nazis in the 1930s, when challenged, would claim that Mein Kempf did not reflect Nazi ideology. If the Hamas constitution was simply a stray document I would agree with you. Except that it follows in a consistent pattern so yes I do view it as evidence that Hamas believes in the genocidal extermination of Jews in Israel. In the same vein I am willing to overlook embarrassing statements that one can find in early Likud history because the Likud has no consistent pattern of advocating the genocide of Arabs.

        1. I am willing to overlook embarrassing statements that one can find in early Likud history because the Likud has no consistent pattern of advocating the genocide of Arabs.

          Likud has a consistent policy of advocating intolerance, hate and violence against Arabs. And the levels of such hatred flaunted is about the same as the level of hatred by Hamas against Israeli Jews.

  3. If Hamas thinks the charter is irrelevant, and an obstacle to peace, why dont they change it? Why would Hamas allow an irrelevant document be used as an excuse to blockade Gaza?

    1. If the charter has never been voted for or otherwise approved by Hamas, what business do they have disowning it? If I had too much time on my hands and wrote an “Israeli Constitution” (probably using some of the egalitarian language of the Declaration of Independence), do you think the Israeli govt would or should be compelled to comment at all, let alone issue a formal dementi?
      You’re quite right that the charter is used as an excuse. Is Hamas now also responsible for the bad faith on the other side, because they “allow” it?

  4. The charter was approved by Hamas and until this day is
    Hamas , based on the charter, refusing to accept Oslo and
    any other agreement in which Israel’s right to exist is
    accepted. For the same reason is Hamas against the three
    conditions of the Five (US,EU,UN,Russia,China) : accepting
    Israel, accepting the previous signed agreementrs between
    Israel and the PLO und stop terrorism. That’s the main reason for the breakdown of negiations for aPLO-Hamas
    government in the Palestinian territories. So whoever still claims that the Hamas Charter is just a piece of worthless paper is clearly fooling himself or/and others.
    is knowingly lieing.

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