26 thoughts on “Lies, Damn Lies and Avigdor Lieberman – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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    1. Has anyone ever told you you can be an awful nudnik? Frankly, I have nothing to say to people who accuse me of “dishonesty,” especially when I haven’t the faintest clue what they’re talking about.

      You got upset about some claim I made that you didn’t have as much understanding of what real Palestinians think as you seemed to imply. And that’s “dishonest?”

  1. “several of his faction members including himself are under investigation for corruption”

    Could you point out for me who these several members are? I have only heard of the investigation against Lieberman himself.

      1. Tartman is no longer a member of Knesset, she was placed in an unrealistic position on the Yisrael Beitenu roster (and so has no more time) and as far as i know is not “under investigation” nor has she been under a police investigation ever (if I am mistaken I will correct myself). So it is ironic that in a post where you criticize others for their inaccuracies, you yourself make such a blatant one.

        1. I think you mean she won’t be a member of the next Knesset. I hadn’t heard that she resigned from the current Knesset. She engaged in fraud by accepting payments for a disability she didn’t have. I don’t care whether or not she’s under investigation (though you haven’t presented any evidence that she ISN’T). Haaretz & other media outlets presented evidence of her venality. If you add this to Lieberman’s alleged corrupt activities & potential ties to the Russian mob, it paints a picture of a racist political party that winks at the venality of its leaders.

          Interesting though that you seek to defend Lieberman & his party. That shows where yr sympathies lie.

          1. I’m not defending Lieberman. I’m criticizing you. You can’t tell the difference? The Knesset has changed. Officially. I thought you kept up with current events in Israel. Tartman is not a member of the current Knesset. I don’t need to present evidence that she’s not under investigation. She’s not. Papers don’t report when someone is not under investigation. And Tartman had resigned from Israel Beytenu after being given an unrealistic place on their list. So your contention that several members of IB are under investigation is false unless you can come up with anyone else.

          2. The leader of the party is under investigation for corruption and a former MK who Lieberman nominated to be a minister in the last government also has a touch of the kleptocrat and you’re quibbling with me? And yes, such quibbling has the effect of defending Lieberman and his party. So welcome to being a Lieberman apologist.

  2. Let’s be real. This plays to American perception of Arabs and the article was placed to prove that he is not the “radical” that he is being called. It is a written document to counter his previous statement about hanging people and calling for expulsions, ect….

    As the wife of a Palestinian, I say Israel elected their version of Hamas, only they don’t want to have the name that goes with the election. So, now they are using the are covering the tracks with the media.

    His demands concern me. The demands for loyalty and/or fealty are too monarchical for me. Social contract does not mean the government decides when citizens default on their delivery except as individuals (not groups) within the context of specific laws that the org must maintain. It is the opposite. Citizens are allowed to decide if the government is defaulting on the contract that if the citizen surrenders certain rights for certain protections and actions, is the government delivering as needed. The government must leave viable options for peaceful contestation, which we see is at least at threat in Israel. Shown clearly by the efforts not to allow Arab political parties to run in elections, that was a threat. So to, the jargon and actions on rebuilding after the 2006 war. IMHO, this calls for a civil rights movement, but I am afraid that would be perceived as treason.

    Sorry, but his jargon reminds me of the Jacobean rebellions and the Glencoe massacre. If they swear fealty or not, with groups like Beitenu Yisrael, it won’t matter.

  3. I truly believe this man is a psychotic. If he had his way he would string up every Palestinian man woman and child, even babies. He is sick, a disgusting sorry excuse for a human being, and the fact that he has risen this high in Israel is not only disappointing, but lamentable and ominous.

  4. Palestinians cannot fight Israeli oppression non-violently. And this BDS movement will go nowhere IMO. It’s symbolically inspiring but futile. Israel receives massive aide in every sense from an equally mass-murdering tyrant (us).

    And unlike the South African blacks, the Israeli economy does not depend on the Palestinians. I recall reading an article in ZNet, when Jeff Halper accurately described the Palestinians as ‘warehouse people’. Not with malice of course, for anyone who knows Jeff Halper, that’s obvious.

    Rather, he was describing how the Palestinians have nothing to bring to the table as it were. They have no bargaining chips. And they have no economic value. They also have no Arab countries willing to support them.

    Egypt and Jordan are subservient. Syria is getting there soon. The Palestinians are completely alone.

    I mean, the peace treaty of Egypt was the first step of the end of Palestinian self-determination. Egypt and Israel made peace, not due to love and harmony and marshmallows like the fake liberals will tell you. Obviously, Israel made peace with Egypt so that they could cut the legs underneath the Palestinians slowly but surely. Divide and conquer. Also, we all know that Egypt was becoming a legitimate threat to Israel. They weren’t as strong but they were strong enough to be a threat to be worried about.

    Every one of these Arab countries who make ‘peace’ with the US or Israel destroy the chances of Palestinian Statehood and squash any chance of democracy within their own population.

    All of them are oppressive police states.

    I mean, the Gaza massacre was disgusting and horrible. Really brought out the true nature of Zionism. But, on the other hand it’s nothing new. It’s nothing surprising really. Over the course of the year, many Palestinian civilians and children died casually. It’s commonplace for Israel to virtually execute or maim the civilian population without punishment.

    I recall reading a study done by Yesh Din (correct name?) that documented the amount of Israeli soldiers who were prosecuted for murder/abuse/etc. in the OT. I believe of the complaints made by Palestinians, only 40% made it through. And only 6% of that 40% resulted in trials.

    Of those trials I think the longest sentence was 2 years.

    I mean, without even know these specific statistics, a rational observer, from digesting the general thrust of the Zionist project can understand the ongoing injustice.

    Then we have the house demolitions. The stealing of resources such as the gas fields and even WATER.

    From The Brian Lehrer Show interview w/ Mustafa Barghouthi (http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/2009/02/12/segments/123698):
    “We the Palestinians of the West Bank can only use up to 50 cubic meters of water per capita per year, while an illegal settler can use 2400, 48 times more than us. That is not sustainable. Because it is inhuman.”

    There are also full studies that document the water theft. Every single aspect of this conflict is documented.

    None of it is controversial. I’m so sick of fake liberals and fake peace activists talking about equality and all this Utopian garbage. They know full well that it’s all a fantasy.

    They know that the Israeli public welcomed the Gaza massacre. 10,000 protesting mean nothing when the overwhelming majority (85-90% as Haaretz reports) supported the ‘operation’. When Israeli Jews gleefully perch upon stolen land and watch smoke rise from Gaza without flinching, then I think we know where they stand.

    There was also a recent survey that showed that most do not want a 2 State solution. Meaning, giving up the West Bank to those Arabs.

    Zionism was built on the destruction of Palestinian self-determination. Zionism was built on the destruction of the Palestinian people. Everything else that follows is institutionalized according to the Zionist project.

    When you add the Holocaust Industry and the constant exploitation of Nazi Germany/Hitler/antisemitism/etc. as ideological bludgeons to indoctrinate or silence criticism – there is virtually no hope.

    I mean, the US was built on genocide and ethnic cleansing. Israel and us belong together. Manifest Destiny is no different from Zionism. Zionism is much more effective of course. We are supposedly in a modern world. I remember growing up hearing people say “That’s crazy, it’s the 90s!” (I’m 24)

    And yea, that notion still stands. All this is crazy, it’s the 21st century.

    I think it goes to show you that Western politics (and I truly believe Israel is ‘Western’, meaning sanctimonious/hypocritical and borderline sociopathic) is about power – not justice. Can’t remember where I read that. Anyways, lets get back to singing about brotherly love and all that jazz!

    What’s there biggest threat? Their stubborness? Maybe the demographic threat but that’s wishful thinking.

  5. I was once in a press meeting with Liberman. Some questions were asked about the rights of minorities in his plan. To this he answered: “I am here to protect the rights of the minority that pays its taxes and goes to the army”.

    The label “Fascism” is thrown into the debate too easily, but Liberman’s populist rhetoric is really getting there.

  6. Like Arie, I’d like to thank you for bringing Lieberman out of the shadows for American readers. They say that sunlight is the best disinfectant.

  7. RE: “They say that sunlight is the best disinfectant.”

    The legendary Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis is credited with the creation of this wonderful expression.

    One of my Brandeis favorites from Olmstead v. United States (1928): “In a government of law, the existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.”

  8. As far as I can see, Lieberman is merely giving voice (albeit in a crude fashion) to the actions and feelings of Israeli leaders past, present and I fear, into the future. The current concept of Israel as embraced by so many people, seems to be that it is a zero-sum issue; what is Arab is not Jewish and vice versa, therefore, get rid of Arabs by strangling them at every opportunity.
    In my opinion, any “solution” that does not translate as a single-state solution, is destined to fail.
    There is absolutely no reason why Israel cannot thrive and succeed with ALL three faiths living together as equals. There is no reason why such a state cannot be crafted to protect every one of its minorities and no reason why Jews, Muslims and Christians cannot live in brotherhood.

    If a single-state concept were to be implemented, I am sure Israel would emerge as a powerhouse among nations.

  9. If Israel integrated the Arab population into Israel + West B. and Gaza, then Israel would cease to be Israel.

    And the Zionist identity (eternal victims, never forget the Holocaust when you’re asked to kill/vote/donate/rule/marry/etc.) would dissipate.

    It would be the first step in solving the problems of the ME. Of course it will never happen.

    1. Sorry, but this is more lameness. This CiF piece fits perfectly into the Harry’s Place perspective on the I-P conflict. It is lazy and worthless from the get go. This writer attempts to argue that no one in the world expressed profound alarm when Hamas won the PA elections in 2006. Is she forgetting that Israel and the U.S. both went apoplectic & warned the world of the impeding disaster this would mean? Not to mention that both countries began preparing to sponsor a Fatah coup against Hamas.

      Lieberman is a racist thug. Hamas too has its share of thugs. But many of the leaders of Hamas are more pragmatic than Lieberman is. To argue, as she does, that there is a double standard in that the world labels Lieberman for what he is while refusing to acknowledge that Hamas is just as bad is a dead end argument. I don’t romanticize Hamas. I know what it is and what its weaknesses are. Lieberman is worse especially if he ever gets real power.

      Zeev Sternhell has argued that Lieberman is the most dangerous politician in the history of the State of Israel. I’m not sure he’s right, but if he’s wrong he’s not off by much.

      I don’t plan on arguing about this article with you here. So if you want to do so you’ll have to find others to argue with.

  10. As for what you said, you’re right, I am a nudnik. But given that you send me emails referring to discussions from a month ago, I think you’re more than capable to acknowledging that you misrepresented my position.

    1. Spoken as the obstinate ideologue you are. When challenged completely deny any context to your actions. You’re carrying water for Avigdor Lieberman and Yisrael Beitenu. Who did you vote for?

  11. If you don’t plan discussing it then you shouldn’t post a response. So here’s my two cents – needless to say, you don’t have to respond.

    Read more carefully – the piece is primarily about media reactions, so your point about US/Israeli policy isn’t so relevant.

    The problem with your blog is not the policies it espouses (mostly). It’s the double intellectual standard. Everything is done to try and explain away heinous behavior by Palestinians; everything is done to try and exaggerate heinous behaviour by Israelis (yesterday, for example, we had Lieberman as Stalin). Here’s another great example: “Lieberman is a racist thug. Hamas has its fair share of thugs.” Racist thugs, would you say? A strange ommission in the context of the comparison.

    It’s a shame that you can’t just rationally analyse the heinous behavior of both sides. I understand that there is no equivalence, that Israel is the stronger party and the occupier, and that you are – rightfully – primarily concerned with Israeli behavior. But none of this excuses the fundamental lack of maturity in your analysis. It’s like reading something by an apoplectic (to use a word you enjoy so much) undergraduate.

    “Lazy”, “lameness”, “worthless” – par for the course as far as you are concerned. Epithets in place of rationally discussing the issue; your raging arrogance laid bare, the babbling prince at his throne.

    1. Everything is done to try and explain away heinous behavior by Palestinians; everything is done to try and exaggerate heinous behaviour by Israelis (yesterday, for example, we had Lieberman as Stalin)

      First, I don’t do “everything” to “explain away” Palestinian bad behavior. In fact, I acknowledge it repetitively & I get oh so tired of having to remind the myriad of readers like you who make the same false charge.

      Second, I certainly would not have compared Lieberman to Stalin had he himself not likened the Israeli police to the NKVD. Don’t you think Lieberman deserves his share of blame for such histrionics? Lieberman admittedly isn’t a full blown Stalin. He’s not in the same league of megalomania and would make a much smaller version even if he ever came to power. But Lieberman is certainly much closer to Stalin than the Israeli police is to the NKVD.

      the babbling prince at his throne.

      My comment rules do not permit ad hominem attacks. Stick to the issues or you’ll wear out yr welcome.

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